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RIM 29
8th June 2001, 00:28
Hi.
I saw PHILBERT's thread about scoliosis and how it affects his balance. I was diagnosed with that as a child, but "grew out of it" after about 5 years. I have, however, had back problems since high school. (I'm in my early 20's now). I just started training in the Bujinkan, (literally JUST started last week). I was wondering if anyone else out there has suffered from back problems, what they do to remedy the problem, etc etc.


I've found that just by doing simple stretches that I can alleveate 95% of the problem right there. (I'm talking about stretching for everyday life, not just sports or martial arts) This sounds ridiculously obvious, but if you're just not naturally flexible, it's REALLY hard to start!

It took me 23 years to get to the point where I just had to force myself to spend the time (and pain) to become more flexible. Now it's a lot better than it was.

Thanks!!!


Ryan Rogers

NoMan
8th June 2001, 07:49
A brother in misery :toast:

I've had back problems for a while now, and with family genetics, am going to end up a crippled old man. Won't let that stop me now though :D

Here's a few things you can do.

1.) Strengthen your ab muscles. They support your upper torso, and if your abs are weak, your posture slouches, and your lower back has to take a larger portion of the stress.

2.) Strengthen your back muscles. Read answer one, pretty much the same thing.

3.) If you run, be careful. Don't run on concrete or excessively hard surfaces, pay attention to your running form, try to step with the balls of your feet, not the heel. Running on the heel creates a jarring sensation in your spine.

4.) How you sleep. Certain sleeping positions are more harmful to your spine than others. You may need to check with a doctor.

5.) Coming from a line of crippled old men, I've found a certain device useful. It's a "spinal decompressor". Normally, when we stand, run, sit, etc., our spinal column is slightly compressed. What this machine does, is it allows you to relieve tension in the spine by decompressing it, allowing the release of trapped fluids and gas pockets.

RIM 29
8th June 2001, 18:01
Michael-
Thanks for the reply. Yeah, back problems are the worst. I don't run for exercise,(I prefer bicycling) so I'm ok on that front. My abs are about average, but I've heard a lot of people say the same thing you said. I'll start working them more than usual.

But what about strengthening my back? Do you have any particular exercises to suggest? My work has a gym in the basement, so I can literally go down right now and do it.

Sleeping...the big one!!! Yeah, I realized that this has everything to do with a bad back. I'm working on this one.

I realized that my introductory lesson in the Bujinkan helped a lot,too. The Sensei would manually correct my posture and show me how I was supposed to be standing. It was great to have someone literally SHOW your body how to stand completely upright. That was about 2 weeks ago, and I 've been working on correcting my posture on my own ever since. It's been hard, and painful!! But I think I'm now getting to the point where I don't have to stop and remind myself not to slouch, so it's worth it. The first couple of days, it hurt like crazy. I thought I had damaged something, but now it's doing pretty good.

Where can I go to try out a spinal decompressor? Is it something you buy, or is it something you use at a gym?

Thanks for the input!

RIM 29
8th June 2001, 18:05
Michael-
Thanks for the reply. Yeah, back problems are the worst. I don't run for exercise,(I prefer bicycling) so I'm ok on that front. My abs are about average, but I've heard a lot of people say the same thing you said. I'll start working them more than usual.

But what about strengthening my back? Do you have any particular exercises to suggest? My work has a gym in the basement, so I can literally go down right now and do it.

Sleeping...the big one!!! Yeah, I realized that this has everything to do with a bad back. I'm working on this one.

I realized that my introductory lesson in the Bujinkan helped a lot,too. The Sensei would manually correct my posture and show me how I was supposed to be standing. It was great to have someone literally SHOW your body how to stand completely upright. That was about 2 weeks ago, and I 've been working on correcting my posture on my own ever since. It's been hard, and painful!! But I think I'm now getting to the point where I don't have to stop and remind myself not to slouch, so it's worth it. The first couple of days, it hurt like crazy. I thought I had damaged something, but now it's doing pretty good.

Where can I go to try out a spinal decompressor? Is it something you buy, or is it something you use at a gym?

Thanks for the input!

Ryan Rogers

NoMan
10th June 2001, 19:35
"Thanks for the reply. Yeah, back problems are the worst. I don't run for exercise,(I prefer bicycling) so I'm ok on that front."

Most cyclist know to have a bicycle that allows them to maintain the S-curve of the spine, which is good.


"My abs are about average, but I've heard a lot of people say the same thing you said. I'll start working them more than usual."

Your abs are like the forearms and calves, everyone thinks theirs is really strong, due to how often they are used in normal activity. However, considering your abs is almost always supporting a large percentage of your body weight, the stronger they are, the less you have to worry about.

But what about strengthening my back? Do you have any particular exercises to suggest? My work has a gym in the basement, so I can literally go down right now and do it.

Try out the hyperextension machine. The term "hyperextension" is usually in relation to a joint, whenever you go beyond it's "locking" point in its natural range of motion. Although this really doesn't apply to a "hyperextension" machine, it's still called that anyway. There are a few back machines in most gyms, but they have very limited ranges of motion. The hyperextension machine, (It's actually a supine bench, where you hang from the belly button up over it, hook your feet under it. You lower your body down, keeping the S-curve of the spine, then raise yourself up,) utilizes an exercise that has a full range of motion, it uses only your bodyweight, and I've never heard any reported problems with the use of it.

The ISSA is requiring me to take a few COE (Continuing Ongoing Education) classes, and one of them is on lower back problems and solutions. I'll report back after I take it.

"I realized that my introductory lesson in the Bujinkan helped a lot,too. The Sensei would manually correct my posture and show me how I was supposed to be standing. It was great to have someone literally SHOW your body how to stand completely upright. That was about 2 weeks ago, and I 've been working on correcting my posture on my own ever since. It's been hard, and painful!! But I think I'm now getting to the point where I don't have to stop and remind myself not to slouch, so it's worth it. The first couple of days, it hurt like crazy. I thought I had damaged something, but now it's doing pretty good."

Hard to break old habits, I know :D Janty would definetely be proud to know his fellow Bujinkan members are teaching real-world applicative skills.

"Where can I go to try out a spinal decompressor? Is it something you buy, or is it something you use at a gym?"

The one I use is made by a company called "Health Mark". You can try doing a search for them and see if you find it. I haven't seen any gyms with it, it's not exactly an exercise machine.

NoMan
10th June 2001, 21:04
"IMHO when it comes to back problems the subject of "situps" comes up. In addition to that what works good for back pains are "situps, situps and more situps"."

Well, let's get into kinesiology and anatomy a little bit. The abdominal muscles have a very limited range of motion that they can operate within. The rectus abdominal muscles are only involved in raising the body from a supine position at about a 30 degree angle. Any flexion movements that occur beyond that involve another set of muscles, the Ilipsoas (major and minor). These muscles are connected to the lower lumbar region of the back, and as such, whenever they are contracted, they pull on the spine. I wouldn't recommend this for anyone with back problems.

"Crunches are best with higher reps and isolate the abdominals your working on."

I agree completely. I'll go just a little bit further. There's something known as the "interdependancy of muscles". Basically, there are some muscles that can not contract without another synergist/stabilizer to help them. The abs are one such muscle group. Your lower abs cannot contract without the upper abs being contracted as well. This is why it is sometimes hard to get a good lower ab workout. The upper abs get pre-fatigued, and therefore the lower abs can not be sufficiently worked out. So, you should always do lower abs first, then upper abs.

It's important to strengthen both upper/lower abs, as they both support bodyweight, and well, having good upper abs and no lower abs just looks weird!

"I would stay away from "strengthening the back" unless a qualified health professional you have met with, has determined that this would help and not make it worse."

I agree. Always consult a physician before beginning any exercise program.

"Abdominals are the anterior stabilizers for the back. Frequently when they are not up to par for the work the back is doing the back attempts to take over and does more work than it should. Then you get muscular back pain. (This is only one reason)"

There are quite a few causes of back pain, but most people who suffer from it who lose weight and strengthen their abs/lower back, report dramatic decreases in pain. I'd recommend seeing a physician and getting the official word.

"Thanks Noman for the Spinal thingy you brought up.
Personally I would stay away from "devices" and remain faithful to your natural options. (for a couple of reasons)
1. Exercise doesn't cost money
2. If it doesn't help refer to #1 but your stuck with the device."

It's what works for me, and some other people who suffer from back problems. Really, it's what visiting a chiropractor does. It's a lot cheaper in the long run though.

"Another thing that keyed me here is that it was said you were tight from the start. When the hamstrings are extremely tight it puts a beating on the natural posture of the body. Stretching consitutes exercise so although stretch frequently and fully (more than a minute and half per stretch and time it!!) Let your body rest a day or two per week on certain exercises."

That's an excellent point. Another lesser known function of the hamstrings is that they act as a secondary mover for the lower back exercises. You can ask anyone who does stiff-leg deadlifts about this. (That's a lower back exercise I don't recommend for people with back problems.) The interplay between the hamstrings and lower back is often overlooked, but problems with one are sometimes an indication of problems within the other.

RIM 29
12th June 2001, 00:12
Thanks for all the info guys. I've been doing some ab work, and some very in-depth stretching, and I'm feeling pretty good. I have my first real class tomorrow, so I'll make sure to stretch out before I go.
thanks again!
Ryan Rogers.


oh- also- sorry for the double post back there.

Tanya29
14th June 2001, 14:56
Regarding sit-ups and back pain: I've always heard from various places (coaches, yoga instructors, etc.) that sit-ups done 'the wrong way' can really hurt your neck and back. They always emphasize doing sit ups by working your abs and not pulling with the neck. I can see the physical reason that sit ups/stronger abs would help back pain, but I just thought I would bring up the poorly done/lazy sit ups = more neck/back pain issue.

--Tanya Merchant

NoMan
14th June 2001, 22:17
Any form of ab exercise can really stress the neck if done improperly, which is why the neck supporter/ab machines have gotten so popular as of recent times. Sit-ups, Roman chairs, etc, any exercise for the abs that raises the shoulder above a 30 degree angle, flexes two muscles, located on lower vertebrae of the back. These two muscles are the Iliopsoas major and minor. These contractions pull on the spine, and, in the case of someone with back problems, aren't particularly healthy. In terms of sports-specific functions, strong muscles in this region aren't particularly necessary. You won't ever be able to see your iliopsoas muscles, (if you do, you're in serious physical trouble), so working them out serves very little purpose.

lgusaas
14th June 2001, 23:48
Originally posted by NoMan
In terms of sports-specific functions, strong muscles in this region aren't particularly necessary. You won't ever be able to see your iliopsoas muscles, (if you do, you're in serious physical trouble), so working them out serves very little purpose. [/B]

What does being able to see or not see a muscle have to do with its function in sporting activities? Some of the most important muscles for sports-specific functions are not visible.It is true that incorrect training of the iliopsoas muscles can agravate a bad back,BUT they do perform essential functions in sport activities. Only bodybuilders who are purely interested in appearance rather than function, ignore training muscles that aren't visible. Althletes who also do so put themselves at unneccesary risk of injury.

Larry Gusaas

NoMan
15th June 2001, 05:28
"What does being able to see or not see a muscle have to do with its function in sporting activities?"

None really, but the iliopsoas doesn't serve much sport-specific function or aesthetic purpose. Honestly, how many times have you needed to overcome high levels of resistence moving your shoulders beyond a 30 degree angle? I'd imagine the answer would be "hardly ever". The iliopsoas does have a few important roles as a stabilizer within some given movements, but in terms of direct strength, the potential dangers of damaging your lower back from straining it, far outweigh any sports-specific adaptations from it.

The point being, if you weren't training for something sport-specific, the only other reason would be aesthetic value of that particular muscle. Considering working out this muscle is considered:

Potentially dangerous, with little sport-specific conditioning and no aesthetic value, I plain and simple don't recommend it. I also don't recommend squats. There are so many things that can go wrong during a squat that can permanently injure a person it is amazing. I also know that in terms of neurochemical impulses, and maximum muscle fiber recruitment, no other exercise known enlists as many muscle fibers as a squat does, making it one of the potentially greatest mass builders there is. However, is it worth getting injured over? Especially considering there are tons of alternative exercises that produce similar results?

"Some of the most important muscles for sports-specific functions are not visible."

I know this very well, let's look at some other muscles we can't see, (very well). The infraspinatus, supraspinatus, and the teres major and minor. Now, these muscles are necessary for a variety of reasons, because of their sports-specific purposes. This being throwing a baseball, armwrestling, etc. So, there is indeed a very good sports specific reason to train these muscles.

You were saying that bodybuilders don't work out muscles they can't see. Without these muscles being strong, the amount of stress placed on them from various deltoid exercises would tear your shoulder apart, as has happened in the past with certain lifters. Bodybuilders are very much concerned with this. A major injury equals retirement.

Other muscles are necessary as antagonist muscles, so that the agonist doesn't become too strong, creating either shin splints, carpal tunnel syndrome, or making someone "muscle-bound". You may not be able to see them, (very well), but they do serve a purpose.

The only sports-specific function I know of the psoas muscles is doing a few various diving positions I've seen from high divers. The average person simply doesn't need their hip flexors any stronger. Too many people already have postural problems from too much hip flexor work (lordosis). Also, little known fact for all the personal trainers out there, there are two forms of legal liability that we all face:

Omission, which is failing to perform a prudent aspect of the job, like letting someone bench press without being there to spot them.

The second, and more tricky one, is co-mission. That's performing our job incorrectly. An example of this would be telling a severely out of shape client to do a marathon fitness level bicycle program, which results in severe angina. Since ACE recommends against doing full sit-ups, your legal culpability is increased, especially if you're an ACE-certified instructor. The ISSA discourages it as well. So, in good conscious and standing with these organizations, I cannot recommend these kinds of exercises.

I can't imagine any positions in fighting where you'd ever want to end up with over a 30 degree angle in your shoulders. Much less need to have explosive strength to perform the function. Trust me, I rarely give my opinions if I have no clue of what I'm talking about. ;)

Tanya29
15th June 2001, 10:18
I have another question about sit ups/crunches. Do the crunches w/legs up at a right angle to the floor excercise different muscles than the ones w/legs on the floor?

Also, I had someone reccommend leg lifts to work lover abs - i.e. lying on your back and lifting legs up and bringing them back almost down to the floor, and repeat. Anyway, is it true that crunches only work upper abs and these leg thingies isolate the lower abs? Also, the leg lifts, when I'm doing them, make my lower back/tail bone hurt just because it's digging into the floor. Does this mean that I'm doing them wrong?

Thanks.

--Tanya Merchant

Tanya29
15th June 2001, 10:21
sorry, that's *lower* abs...my edit function doesn't seem to be working.

Tanya Merchant

NoMan
15th June 2001, 15:33
I don't really want to go too deep with this, but basically, there's something known as the "interdependancy of muscles". Basically, there are some muscles that cannot contract without another muscle being contracted as well. Aside from the abs, there are a few in the forearm, your posterior calf muscles (gastrocnemius and soleus), some back muscles, etc.

The lower abs are one such muscle group. Your lower abs cannot contract without the upper abs being contracted as well. This is why it is sometimes hard to get a good lower ab workout. The upper abs get pre-fatigued, and therefore the lower abs cannot be sufficiently worked out. Basically, it is impossible to isolate the lower abs, because another muscle must be contracted (a side note, every single movement we make has 6 muscular functions to it, but I don't feel like getting that deep into this,) to work them out. I'd recommend working out your lower abs first, then upper abs. The upper abs can be worked independantly of the lower abs, but not vice versa. Crunches do isolate the upper abs.

As for the leg raise question, make sure your upper abs are contracted very hard during it. Some people tend to be relax with their upper abs during this exercise, leading them to "rock" during it, causing the lower back to get driven into the floor.

lgusaas
16th June 2001, 08:20
Originally posted by NoMan
"the iliopsoas doesn't serve much sport-specific function or aesthetic purpose. Honestly, how many times have you needed to overcome high levels of resistence moving your shoulders beyond a 30 degree angle?"

"I can't imagine any positions in fighting where you'd ever want to end up with over a 30 degree angle in your shoulders. Much less need to have explosive strength to perform the function."

What do the iliopsoas have to do with shoulder movement? They are Hip Flexors and affect the relationship between the upper and lower body and only affect the shoulders in the overall relationship between the upper and lower body. They are involved in all aspects of hip flexion independently of any movement of the shoulders in relationship to the upper body. It is this usage that is vital in the martial arts and that at specifically train for.

Some examples:
Raising the knee in preperation for a kick-uses ALL the hip flexors.
Knee strikes- hip flexor movement-done EXPLOSIVELY.
Reach out with both hands and grab attacker behind head. Contract lats and abs, bringing attacker's head in and down. At the same time, contract the hip flexors on one side and bring the knee up EXPLOSIVELY into the solar plexus or chin.VERY effective, also covers more than 30 degrees of movement.

The iliopsoas,along with all other muscles of the hips and midsection are essential in developing the multi-dimensional Koshi movements that are essential for developing maximum power in martial art techniques.


" I also don't recommend squats. There are so many things that can go wrong during a squat that can permanently injure a person it is amazing."

Squats are the MOST IMPORTANT EXERCISE for developing functional strength!!! Any exercise can cause injury when done improperly.People have died doing bench presses improperly. Do you tell people not to bench press ,OR do you teach them proper technique and safety procedures? Squats are NOT DANGEROUS when done properly!!!

Since you have mentioned the ISSA,rather than go on a long rant, I will reccommend that you ask Dr.Squat Fred Hatfield, co-founder and presidentof ISSA if he agrees with your statement on squats. Or, visit his website
www.drsquat.com/articles/sq.htm

Better still, since this is a martial arts forum, ask Charles Staley, Vice President of program development and Director of Martial Arts Science for ISSA. Or, read his book The Science of Martial Arts Training, or take his ISSA course Specialist in Martial Arts Conditioning , or, visit his website
www.myodynamics.com


"Trust me, I rarely give my opinions if I have no clue of what I'm talking about."

???
"If you don't squat, you don't know squat." 'nuff said for now.

Larry Gusaas

NoMan
16th June 2001, 10:42
FYI, I am enrolled as a PFT with the ISSA. I work with Rich Britt, the sales director of the propowerone company that Dr. Hatfield runs. If you doubt my veracity, send me a p.m.

The point was that OVER THE INTERNET, I cannot teach you how to do proper body movement and control. I know very well Dr. Hatfield's feelings on this subject, his nickname is "Dr. Squat" for crying out loud. However, if you read his books, or go to his lectures, he often talks about the VERY inherent dangers of squatting. That's why he recommends the safety squat device,
to try to limit the very real dangers of free squatting.

Look at Chris Cormier for example. When he damaged his legs doing squats, he switched over to doing leg presses instead. He has phenomenal leg development. Now, he even admits that, "the squat is the King of all mass builders", (as I have stated), but "the leg presses allow me to focus more of my energy into them. Instead of worrying about injuring myself, I can worry about getting out the last rep." His leg presses were upwards of 1200 lbs.

However, this question was addressed to someone who has back problems. Let's take for instance, someone with shoulder problems. Because the shoulder joint isn't a true ball-and-socket joint, it causes impengement of the nerves whenever you do lateral dumbbell raises, behind-the-neck presses, and T-rows. In a healthy male adult, this isn't anything to worry about. However, in someone who has had shoulder problems, are you honestly going to tell me you'd recommend them doing that type of movement? The thread started dealing with problems related to the lower back, and I stated, and it has been proven repeatedly that sit-ups cause stress to the lower back. In a healthy adult, this may not be anything to worry about. In one with a back problem, it's a different story.

"People have died doing bench presses improperly. Do you tell people not to bench press ,OR do you teach them proper technique and safety procedures?"

Well, let's use your example of bench pressing. Personal trainers, (and Hatfield himself testifies to this), are often guilty of hurting their patients with this. If the anterior deltoid is not strong enough to deal with the sheering forces exerted on it by a bench press, you'll damage the shoulder. It's been proven time and time again. If the lower back and abs are not strong enough to maintain the stabilizing position for squatting, the compensation processes the patella will do to make up for this will result in trauma to the ligaments and tendons! Granted, the human body was designed with a neural feedback loop to prevent this from happening, and it usually does, but we should be using our logic as well.

Furthermore, with bench pressing, if you use an overly wide-grip on it, it causes sheering forces on the eccentric phase, in the z-band. This occurs because of the outrageous stretch on the muscle, with weighted resistence. This leads to microtrauma, and over time, scar tissue buid-up which limits strength and flexibility. The very reason that Dr. Hatfield and Dr. Arria formed the ISSA was to teach proper training methods, based on good science.

"What do the iliopsoas have to do with shoulder movement?"

Lie down on your back on a supine position, and maintain the normal S-curvature of the spine. Now, try to do a sit-up. You have to contract your rectus abdominal muscles before the iliopsoas can take over in a sit-up. Meaning, the shoulders come up. This not a direct/proportional relationship, I was using it for illustrative purposes. The illustration I was giving was just that you wouldn't need sit-ups as a sports-specific part of conditioning. (Meaning you were performing a movement that mimicked another.) The shoulder movement is a indication of the contraction of the rectus abdominal muscles. Any time the S-curve of the spine is not maintained, the intradiscal pressures in the spine are increased. To add a contracting force pulling on the lumbar, while under a heavier intradiscal pressure, is not good science.

"Some examples:Raising the knee in preperation for a kick-uses ALL the hip flexors.

Knee strikes- hip flexor movement-done EXPLOSIVELY.

Reach out with both hands and grab attacker behind head. Contract lats and abs, bringing attacker's head in and down. At the same time, contract the hip flexors on one side and bring the knee up EXPLOSIVELY into the solar plexus or chin.VERY effective, also covers more than 30 degrees of movement."

All those examples can easily be seen, and they involve a very large portion of lower ab involvement as well. The iliopsoas plays a significant part of lower ab exercises, in which they take on the role of a synergist/stabilizer. Knee-ups, leg raises, flutter kicks, etc., all these movements use the iliopsoas, to a degree. However, if you are to try doing leg lifts, keeping the normal S-curve of the spine, and do them, you will feel enormous pressure on your spine during the leg lift. It is because the amount of neuroelectrical/chemical stimulation your iliopsoas is receiving is tremendous. It has to contract very hard to overcome resistence, and in doing such, pulls on the spine tremendously. Hence the reason some people say that leg lifts hurt their back, (among other possible reasons).

""If you don't squat, you don't know squat." 'nuff said for now.

Actually, I do squat, front squats, hack squats, free squats, etc. I don't recommend it for people who don't have a patella strong enough to handle the load, or do not have access to those who do know how to do it properly. For instance, let's take a person who has hypermobility in their knee. A leg press can be a VERY dangerous exercise if they lock out at the top. It could cause a hyperextension, under pressure from the weight, and very easily injure them permanently. Without a trained person there to spot these types of problems, are you honestly going to recommend they randomly run around testing various machines?

By the way, one thing that Dr. Hatfield repeatedly stresses is that we should always maintain professional composure. Try not to get too hot under the collar.

lgusaas
17th June 2001, 07:41
Originally posted by NoMan
"FYI, I am enrolled as a PFT with the ISSA. I work with Rich Britt, the sales director of the propowerone company that Dr. Hatfield runs. If you doubt my veracity, send me a p.m."

Good. I have the highest respect for the ISSA and the esteemed members of its advisary board. I was just questioning and disagreeing with some of the overgeneralized statements that you made. I agree with much of your current reply. However, there are some points that need further clarification and some new points that need addressing.

"The point was that OVER THE INTERNET, I cannot teach you how to do proper body movement and control. I know very well Dr. Hatfield's feelings on this subject, his nickname is "Dr. Squat" for crying out loud."

True. You can't teach ANYTHING over the internet.BUT the comment I was addressing was " I also don't recommend squats", not about teaching how to perform squats. I gave Hatfield's and Staley's webpage url's so people could check out their highly qualified opinions rather than rely on your simple blanket statement.

"Look at Chris Cormier for example. When he damaged his legs doing squats, he switched over to doing leg presses instead. He has phenomenal leg development."

True, but this has no relationship to my original statement which was "Squats are the MOST IMPORTANT EXERCISE for developing functional strength".I'm talking about being able to use the strength developed through weight training to enhance one's performance in other activities,NOT about muscular deveplopment and appearance.

This is a good point to explain some of my personal development, which will put my position in context, and will also bring this post back to the original point of this thread - Back Problems!

I have had back problems my entire adult life. Consequently, I've been doing midsection strengthening and stretching exercises for most of my adult life. Any time I've neglected exercising for any period of time, I've paid the price. I didn't start weight training untill I was 40. Since I had a bad back, I didn't squat but did leg presses, leg extensions, hack squats, back extensions,etc. After a period of time, I was able to legpress 1000lbs for 15 reps through a full range of motion. However, I hadn't made a lot of improvement in my functional strength which was my only real purpose for weight training.

Then I started doing various exercises that assorted so-called "experts" had said were harmful.The first was heavy dumbell side bends,the exercise that common bodybuilder advice says never to do because it will thicken the waist and detract from the v-taper. [I've never understood why people develop powerful upper and lower bodies and try to maintain a tiny hinge in the middle that will snap if they try to do anything useful with the strength they've developed.]These strengthened the internal muscles supporting my lower back so I was able to move on to the next step-SQUATS! What a humbling experience! I was only able to handle a small amount of weight at first, but it slowly increased and by lower back started improving. Next I added the exercise that the "experts" I had previously listened to said was so risky that no one should do them -Good Mornings. After SLOWLY and CAREFULLY working up to heavy weights, my back made drastic improvements.
My back still acts up occasionly but when it does act up it feel like it used to feel when it WASN'T acting up!!!!

Now, back to your post.

"However, this question was addressed to someone who has back problems. Let's take for instance, someone with shoulder problems. Because the shoulder joint isn't a true ball-and-socket joint, it causes impengement of the nerves whenever you do lateral dumbbell raises, behind-the-neck presses, and T-rows. In a healthy male adult, this isn't anything to worry about."

Basically true, but I wouldn't recommend anyone doing behind the neck presses or pulldowns. The risk of injury is too high IMHO.Bill Starr once wrote that behind the neck presses and pulldowns may be okay for bodybuilders but athletes should never do them because the risk of a career ending injury was too high.

"However, in someone who has had shoulder problems, are you honestly going to tell me you'd recommend them doing that type of movement?"

Definitely not! What in anything I've written would make you think that I would even think of making such a patently stupid reccomendation?


"The thread started dealing with problems related to the lower back, and I stated, and it has been proven repeatedly that sit-ups cause stress to the lower back."

Yes. I have not made a single comment about sit-ups to this point. The comment I disagreed with [my opinion hasn't changed]was "the iliopsoas doesn't serve much sport-specific function".This is two different issues, which my point was all about.


"Well, let's use your example of bench pressing. Personal trainers, (and Hatfield himself testifies to this), are often guilty of hurting their patients with this. If the anterior deltoid is not strong enough to deal with the sheering forces exerted on it by a bench press, you'll damage the shoulder. It's been proven time and time again. If the lower back and abs are not strong enough to maintain the stabilizing position for squatting, the compensation processes the patella will do to make up for this will result in trauma to the ligaments and tendons! Granted, the human body was designed with a neural feedback loop to prevent this from happening, and it usually does, but we should be using our logic as well."

Agreed. I have no problem with this.

"Furthermore, with bench pressing, if you use an overly wide-grip on it, it causes sheering forces on the eccentric phase, in the z-band. This occurs because of the outrageous stretch on the muscle, with weighted resistence. This leads to microtrauma, and over time, scar tissue buid-up which limits strength and flexibility. The very reason that Dr. Hatfield and Dr. Arria formed the ISSA was to teach proper training methods, based on good science."

VERY IMPORTANT POINT !! I commend the ISSA for the work they are doing . It is of utmost importance to teach AND to learn proper training methods.



>"What do the iliopsoas have to do with shoulder movement?"<
"Lie down on your back on a supine position, and maintain the normal S-curvature of the spine. Now, try to do a sit-up. You have to contract your rectus abdominal muscles before the iliopsoas can take over in a sit-up. Meaning, the shoulders come up. This not a direct/proportional relationship, I was using it for illustrative purposes. The illustration I was giving was just that you wouldn't need sit-ups as a sports-specific part of conditioning."

Yes, I know you were trying to make a point. So was I. The point I was addressing was "the iliopsoas doesn't serve much sport-specific function",NOT the need to do sit-ups for sports-specific conditioning. Be carefull when using general and overly simplified points for illustration when pontificating to the uneducated masses. They have a habit of sneaking up behind you and kicking you in the rear end by usage of the iliopsoas muscle.



"All those examples can easily be seen, and they involve a very large portion of lower ab involvement as well. The iliopsoas plays a significant part of lower ab exercises, in which they take on the role of a synergist/stabilizer. Knee-ups, leg raises, flutter kicks, etc., all these movements use the iliopsoas, to a degree."

Good. That is what I've been saying all along.I'm glad that you finally agree with me.

"Actually, I do squat, front squats, hack squats, free squats, etc. I don't recommend it for people who don't have a patella strong enough to handle the load, or do not have access to those who do know how to do it properly."

Good. I agree with this statement. The Point I disagreed with was "I also don't recommend squats." Does your statement above mean you've changed this reccomendation? If so, good, we agree on both of my original points.


"Without a trained person there to spot these types of problems, are you honestly going to recommend they randomly run around testing various machines?"

What makes you think I would ever make such a stupid recommendation?
My basic training reccomendations for developing functional strength are: Use mainly free weights. Learn proper technique -[ignore most of the other people in the gym- they don't know what they are doing]. Get good instuction [CAUTION - many instructors don't know what they are doing either].Educate yourself so you can make informed decisions about your training and potential instructors.

"By the way, one thing that Dr. Hatfield repeatedly stresses is that we should always maintain professional composure. Try not to get too hot under the collar."

Good advice. Take it. My advice - Don't use rhetorical questions to indicate that I would take a position that I have not stated in my post.Further such usage WOULD make me hot under the collar, and that is a sight you would not want to see. BELIEVE ME.


Larry Gusaas

17th June 2001, 08:26
Haven't read through all the comments on this thread but here is some info based on my own experience of back pain. I hope some of this is of help to someone.

I hope that my following comments don't sound too harsh... I've split my comments into two parts - excersize for back pain in healthy people and then for those with diagnosed back problems (disk compression and fractured vertibrae etc).

Lazy bones and poor posture people...

If you have back pain but can do abs then you have no excuse other than to get up and and do it! (I don't mean over do it). Warm up, stretch (don't over do that either), do those abs and back arches too. Don't yank your body, its a precision instrument, you'll damage it. Abs should be done left leg to right elbow and the reverse. NEVER do straight abs as you will put pressure on disks that although you might feel no pain now will eventually complain as you get older. You don't need to arch up like a prawn either (not even kaiten needs that much ab movement).
Back arches, lay face down and do left leg/right arm raise (arm extended to the front) and then the reverse.
Never do anything in a hurry - it took you a few months or years to bring on back pain through poor posture (in sitting and lifting etc) so don't expect it to go away after a week of 'excersize'.
If you have so much pain that abs are unbearable then don't do them! Read the next part, maybe even get x-ray/MRI of your lower back.

For those of us with 'known' causes...

Find a gym that is run by an instructor who has personal experience of back pain due to injury. Tell him/her of your pain and diagnosis and they will usually show you the world of unknown machines that allow you to do abs or any other excersize without stressing your injury.
The gym that I go to has an ab-bench that looks like a low-rider bike seat with a curved support cushion. It supports the back well. Behind the seat is a pulley and wire with weights attached. The wire comes over the top and has two cushioned straps that you pull onto your chest (like a ruck-sack) from here you do your abs which is so much easier than conventional sit-ups. Lean forward then slowly lean back etc...

Its difficult to get started but you have to build up the muscles that support the spine or you will just go downhill and training will be a pain as opposed to enjoyable hard work.

Shi-atsu, chiropractic and a well educated sports instructor are all very helpfull in your recovery. Take collagen as a supplement to soften your ligaments etc. Yoga, take it slow to start. It is the art of turning your body into a floppy rag doll. Slowly, day by day. You don't like back pain? Do yoga every day as the icing on your workout cake. Walking is free too (even if you do it everyday!).

Next time your back hurts go take a look at that rusty bicycle you have in your back yard. If you rode that bike everyday it wouldn't have time to rust! If you leave it a day longer then that's one more day of rust! Do excercize everyday, bit by bit. Never over do it. Even if you can only do 5 or 10 minutes then its better than none.

Correct posture. Zei-za (kneeling Japanese style), is excellent for straightening your back and correcting the cause of pain. If your pain is so unbearable as to not be able to sit for more than a few minutes then lie face down on a semi-hard bed (futon is best). Hopefully one day you will be able to lie face up.

I have injury induced back pain that was diagnosed after over a decade of pain and mystery. Its tough. Never give up!

I wish you all the best in your recovery and training.

TR

NoMan
17th June 2001, 09:14
"Good advice. Take it. My advice - Don't use rhetorical questions to indicate that I would take a position that I have not stated in my post.Further such usage WOULD make me hot under the collar, and that is a sight you would not want to see. BELIEVE ME."

Agreed. I'd hate to have this thread become the first non-ninpo thread thrown into the No Holds Bar and Grill. It's apparent you and I have a love for the iron game, and its many aspects. My apologies to the original posts.

"The first was heavy dumbell side bends,the exercise that common bodybuilder advice says never to do because it will thicken the waist and detract from the v-taper. [I've never understood why people develop powerful upper and lower bodies and try to maintain a tiny hinge in the middle that will snap if they try to do anything useful with the strength they've developed.]These strengthened the internal muscles supporting my lower back"

Yes, the obliques are very important for torso strength and movement. The reason most bodybuilders don't recommend it, is because, well, quite frankly, a large portion of them are on steroids. (I'm trying to avoid a blanket statement here, but this is for illustrative purposes.) The obliques are relatively unused, thus they have a low overload threshold. The calves and forearms are constantly under stress, making their overload threshold, (Time under Tension) higher. The obliques, respond wonderful to new training, and respond very quickly. To those who are not on steroids, this development is moderate, and it tapers off to an aesthetically appealing level. However, with steroids, the oblique muscles expand much further than their intended size, and look like giant muscular love handles. I remember a few old bodybuilding magazines with that look in it. As such, all bodybuilders developed the myth of obliques, scared they too, would have giant muscular love-handles.

"I had previously listened to said was so risky that no one should do them -Good Mornings. After SLOWLY and CAREFULLY working up to heavy weights, my back made drastic improvements.
My back still acts up occasionly but when it does act up it feel like it used to feel when it WASN'T acting up!!!!"

I never could get good mornings to work my lower back the way I wanted, I always stick with stiff leg deadlifts, (another exercise some experts warn against,) and regular deadlifts. Have you tried the hyperextension machine out? I've found that gives an excellent range of motion, and a very good workout, even without holding weights to increase the resistence.

"Be carefull when using general and overly simplified points for illustration when pontificating to the uneducated masses. They have a habit of sneaking up behind you and kicking you in the rear end by usage of the iliopsoas muscle."

Good one. I must admit, I am guilty. Sometimes I don't feel like writing these big essays out, clearly defining what I'm saying.

"Good. I agree with this statement. The Point I disagreed with was "I also don't recommend squats." Does your statement above mean you've changed this reccomendation? If so, good, we agree on both of my original points."

Well, I had responded to another thread about doing deep-knee bends, in relation to it as a recovery workout for bad knees.
Here's what I said:

"All these really good questions and me without all my research materials. Anyway, deep-knee bends can be potentially dangerous. There are a couple of reasons why, and the most scientific one is eluding me at this time. (As Kent pointed out in another thread, never use any of this information to replace a trained physician.)

Anyway, whenever you contract your quadriceps, the patellar ligament has a natural tendency to from its attachment, at the upper front aspect of the tibea. The heavier, lower, and faster you go, the more this particular effect occurs.

This is the reason heavy squatters use knee wraps, to prevent this from happening. Don't be misguided into thinking that only weight training can cause damage, improper bodyweight exercises are as potentially dangerous.

Also, the quadriceps can contract more efficiently when the feet are pointing at slight angles outward, (25-30 degrees), than they can whenever they are straight. If you squat in a very wide stance, you tend to bring in the adductors too much, which causes stress in the medial collateral ligament, abnormal cartilage loading, and improper patellar tracking.

Conversely, if you squat in a narrow stance, you tend to increase the shearing forces on the patellar tendon and ligament. So, a slightly wider than shoulder width stance is best, with the feet pointing slightly outward. This is a VERY short list of all the problems that occur during squatting, and on a weak joint, this is something you can't risk. Squatting is a great mass builder, but a very potentially dangerous one as well.

I personally recommend very light leg extensions while recovering from a knee injury. It strengthens the quadriceps and improves the knee's stability, while not putting direct pressure on it. (As is in the case of squatting, leg presses, lunges, etc.)"

I had come off of answering that, to answering another post. I do agree with you, squats are one of the greatest exercises out there, as are bench presses. It's just that they both have a very dangerous nature, being that they're multi-joint movements, they pull in so many different muscles, requiring delicate coordination between all the muscles. However, when done properly, there's no exercise that gets the same neuroelectrical/chemical response, functional strength, (called the specific principle in the ISSA, doing movements that simulate those in the sport/application that you are trying to improve,) and motor unit recruitment.

"My basic training reccomendations for developing functional strength are: Use mainly free weights. Learn proper technique -[ignore most of the other people in the gym- they don't know what they are doing]. Get good instuction [CAUTION - many instructors don't know what they are doing either].Educate yourself so you can make informed decisions about your training and potential instructors."

Very good advice. Dr. Hatfield was talking about one of the five sources of gym myths, one he calls, "the big guy syndrome." (Meant partially as a joke by him, but the point is still there.) Basically, when a young, ambitious lifter goes to a gym, he finds the biggest guy there to ask questions too. "How did you get such big biceps?" the young lifter might ask. The big guy won't respond with, "Well, I played football most my life, was given naturally great genetics, and I take more steroids than a race horse." The big guy will say something like "eat 10 chicken strips a day, 5 glasses of whole milk, and 12 sets of biceps curls, every day." Well, this young lifter eats the 10 chickens, drinks the five glasses of milk, and does his 12 sets of biceps curls. Because he is getting adequate protein for cell regeneration and formation, and he is overloading his muscles, causing them to adapt to the new stress placed on them, his arms will get bigger.

As we know, 12 sets for a beginner is too much. It doesn't address periodization, or the need to vary workouts, or pretty much anything. The diet is too much as well, there's no way the beginner will be able to handle that much. He'll get overtrained, and feel bloated most of the day from the diet. However, his arms will get bigger. As such, he'll tell his friends his newfound knowledge of weight lifting. From there, it pretty much spreads. Dr. Hatfield talked of how he always meets one guru at every gym, and they all defend their status, whether they actually know what they're doing or not.

Greg Zulak did an article where he talked about interviewing some great champions, who had absolutely no clue what they were talking about. He had to go back and redo the articles after interviewing them, or tell them what to say during the interview. He said that around 10-15% of the top bodybuilders he talked to didn't seem to have much of a clue about what they were doing. Yet, you will still read dozens of interviews by some of these champions, telling young readers what to do to get bigger thighs, or thicker arms.

I think we're more alike than might have originally been thought. :toast:

Here's some advice from the ISSA on back pain:

Beware of how you sit at a computer. Most of the time you have a tendency to slump forward. For people who sit at computers for several hours a day, it's very easy for this to add up.

Pay attention to how you sit. In just regular sitting, you should maintain good posture. You should change positions every 20 minutes or so, so you don't develop static fixation within the back.

Don't use too many pillows when you sleep. Too many pillows piled up makes your back round unnaturally during sleep.

Improve your flexibility. Stretch your lower back out, to allow better movement.

If you lift anything heavy for a job, warm up and stretch EVERY morning. The majority of lower back injurise occur between 8 a.m. and 10 a.m. The reason is simple, the muscles are coldest at the early morning hours, and without a good warm-up, it's almost unavoidable not to get injured.

Siper2
18th June 2001, 02:17
I wholeheartedly agree that muscle strengthening will definitely help. It's something I need to work on myself. I'm rather out of shape, though not very obese.

One thing I can recommend with a whole heart is chiropractic. Please, do not be one of those people who will "try it out," and then abandon it when you don't receive some kind of miracle cure. That's not how it works. :)

All of the nerves in the body, which control ALL bodily functions, run through the spine. Subluxations--subtle-to-drastic movements of the vertebrae out of normal position, can cause hosts of problems. Muscles hold the vertebrae in place of course, so at the least, it could cause muscle tension/ache. At most, pinched nerves, severe illnesses........etc.

It can certainly be seen as a "holistic" or natural form of health maintenance. And should be treated as such. Made a part of your lifestyle. For the first couple of months, get adjusted a couple times a week. After that, back down to whatever you like.
I go once a week. Once at least every two weeks is a pretty good guideline.

The wonderful thing about chiro. is that it fixes the causes of problems, it doesn't just treat symptoms like drugs do. This is why M.D.s will often (unless you find a good one :D ) knock chiropractic and put it down. Their training and practice is to prescribe drugs, not find the actual cause of your pains.

-S2-

Siper2
18th June 2001, 03:14
No it's okay, it's my fault. I've posted here a few times, I just forgot.

-C.J. Seipt

Siper2
18th June 2001, 03:21
Ahhhhhhh, so you wanna take this outside, do ya? :D

-CJ

lgusaas
19th June 2001, 07:47
[QUOTE]Originally posted by NoMan
Agreed. I'd hate to have this thread become the first non-ninpo thread thrown into the No Holds Bar and Grill. It's apparent you and I have a love for the iron game, and its many aspects. My apologies to the original posts.

Agreed, and accepted. At least you drew me out of my normal lurker mode.

"The first was heavy dumbell side bends..."

Yes, the obliques are very important for torso strength and movement.

Very important for a lot of athletes. I do a multitude of oblique exercises, including several dynamic and explosive ones in order to develop maximum Koshi driven power. The dumbell side bends were done initialy [and still are] to strengthen the quadratus lumborum in order to increase my lower back stability.

The reason most bodybuilders don't recommend it, is because, well, quite frankly, a large portion of them are on steroids. (I'm trying to avoid a blanket statement here, but this is for illustrative purposes.)

It's difficult to avoid making blanket statements about bodybuilders. I do it all the time. However, there are many fine examples that don't fit into stereotypical statements.Just look at the members of the ISSA advisory board for starters. I wouldn't include any of them in the generalizations I tend to make.

I never could get good mornings to work my lower back the way I wanted, I always stick with stiff leg deadlifts, (another exercise some experts warn against,) and regular deadlifts. Have you tried the hyperextension machine out? I've found that gives an excellent range of motion, and a very good workout, even without holding weights to increase the resistence.

I did hyperextions for years.[probobly the best exercise to use to start a back strengthening program] I was up to doing 20 reps holding a 90 lb. dumbbell to my chest before I switched to good mornings[It was getting too awkward to hold enough weight to get a strength workout]. I do hang head down on the bench for a couple of minutes after my workout-helps stretch out and decompress my back. I also do 2-3 sets with the whole stack on the Nautilus lower back machine. I find that the movement is a good compliment to good mornings.

Good one. I must admit, I am guilty. Sometimes I don't feel like writing these big essays out, clearly defining what I'm saying.
I understand . It takes a lot of time and effort to write good cognizant posts. My Sensei seldom posts anymore because he just doesn't have enough time.

I had come off of answering that, to answering another post. I do agree with you, squats are one of the greatest exercises out there, as are bench presses. It's just that they both have a very dangerous nature, being that they're multi-joint movements, they pull in so many different muscles, requiring delicate coordination between all the muscles. However, when done properly, there's no exercise that gets the same neuroelectrical/chemical response, functional strength, (called the specific principle in the ISSA, doing movements that simulate those in the sport/application that you are trying to improve,) and motor unit recruitment.

The benefit of these and other multi-joint movements are of such great benefit to athletes that it is well worth the time and effort to learn the proper technique for doing them.

I think we're more alike than might have originally been thought. :toast:

Definitely. I thought we should be,considering your ISSA background, but I had to push a couple of buttons to find out for sure.

Larry Gusaas

PHILBERT
1st July 2001, 04:46
Actually I went to the doctor a few weeks ago who specializes in back related injuries and as it turns out, I don't have scoliosis (sp), but rather Shurman's Kyposis. The difference is this, in scoliosis, your spine is shaped like a question mark or S when you look at them in the front. Not nearly THAT bent, but in that form. In Kyposis, the spine is shaped that way in the back, so when you see me at the side, I am shaped like a question mark, but not that sharp.

Example of scoli (over exagerated, but best I can do)
O
/|?|\ <-Question mark is spine
||

What I got (side view)

O
? my back at the side. Question mark is my back
||
<| My feet

So thats what I got.

Kimpatsu
29th October 2001, 07:08
It seems that many of us out there in MA land have back problems. In my case, I fractured my spine and shattered my sacrum (amoung other injuries) in a climbing accident years ago, and my back has been weak since. I find that weight-assisted situps and back-strengthening exercises (performed using the Nautilus machines at the gym) help a great deal. Also, Shorinji Kenshi practice seiho, which is like a form of shiatsu massage, and I've found that helps enormously. We treat each other after training sessions to good effect. Rim29 might consider visiting a shiatsu practitioner.
My problem is that, even with all the training, exercise, and treatment, the chairs at work are s***, and I sit slumped in one for eight hours a day, thereby undoing all the good of the exercises. On busy days, when I don't leave my seat at all, my lower back is fused come going home time, and I want to crawl to the exit. I'm hunched over like an ape. I can treat my lower back by myself to some extent by applying seiho technique, but receiving it from a third party is always more effective.
Does anybody else hate their work environment?

Siper2
29th October 2001, 12:13
Well... now that there's a "diagnosis," tackling it carefully and scientifically is the best approach. So, back to chiropractic. :)
It could easily be one of your best decisions in a situation like that.

Not to offend in the least but does this back doctor merely tell you what you've got, or was there assistance offered? Just curious is all. I hear lots of stories about people going to doctors, hearing "well, you've got (Dis-ease X), so you'll need this pill."
Or.... "that makes you special." I think state of mind has a lot to do with it.. Planting in someone's head that they have something that apparently can not be helped tells the body that it's inadequate. The body gets stressed and makes it worse.

Well that's just how I feel. :)

CJ Seipt

fifthchamber
29th October 2001, 14:26
Hello Tanya..
I was not too sure if your post was answered but have answers for you anyhow.. The lying down leg raises are generally supposed to work the 'Lower' ab's but I have found that there is really no need to go about these exercises as specifically as that (unless you are a bodybuilder and need to confine 'work zones')
I found that the best way to exercise the total abdominal area is either Crunches with your feet flat against a wall, legs bent at 90 degrees (like sitting on the wall) and crunch up to compress the stomach..Try to imagine bringing your ribs as close as possible to your hip bones!!..Other good forms are using the situp 'cages' that you lie in and roll with (they stop any unnessential movement) and for Ab endurance you can try lifting your feet 6 inches off the floor with legs straight and holding for increasing amounts of time...Painful but it works!
Also adding a twist motion that is controlled helps to develop the side walls of the Ab's..Make sure they are controlled though so the Abs are working and not the momentum of your body.
Using weight in situps is pointless as it only adds to the muscle size and can thicken the wall...Bulging your stomach out more.
Just thought I would add that..Not sure why!
Hope this all helps anyhow!
Ben.