Osu [Archive] - E-Budo.com

ghp

8th June 2001, 06:28

Peter,

I've seen the article before and it is well written and accurate.

An anecdote, if I may ....Osu is also used in the Ground Self Defense Force. One day up in Hokkaido [Yamazakura Sakusen/Exercise Yama Sakura] I was walking around the HQ camp (the one near Moiwa Mountain) and passed by a group of Japanse members, 2 women and 2 men. They saluted and said "osu!" ... so I returned their salute and "greeting of the day."

Just as I walked past, one of the women said loudly, "Mesu!" -- I couldn't help it, I broke up laughing; then they did too, seeing that I understood their little joke.

You see, in the land of infinite homophones ... Osu can also mean a "male" animal (as in a male dog). So the woman defense force member said "mesu" ... meaning "bitch!"

Ahhhh .... ya had ta be there!

Regards,
Guy

Joseph Svinth

8th June 2001, 08:11

FWIW, I have a Kyokushin background and have been in schools where the folks say "Osu" every 30 seconds, and between us, I also find it rather off-putting. That said, the word definitely is part of some of the mainstream teachings. As a result, it should, IMO, be considered part of the Kyokushin Kai subculture rather than indicative of ability or anything else. My personal guess is that the original Kyokushin Kai teachers and players were not always the best educated kids on their block, and so they lived in a subculture in which "Yo" was said regularly.

Interestingly, some of the worst pronunciations and usage of osu I've heard came from round-eyes who spent years in Japan, while some of the better pronunciations and usages came from folks who have never been closer to Japan than Kinokuniya's.

MarkF

8th June 2001, 09:57

It's part of the judo culture as well, though since judoka have been called judo players since Jigoro Kano, it probably fits.

I was in a kyok. dojo with Joe a couple of months ago and was taken aback somewhat as it was definitely overused. While in most judo dojo, it is more of a grunt in greeting those with whom you are about to engage in randori and after, in this dojo, lines were drawn where osu was used...literally on the ground. I don't know if that was out of formality or a way of getting to know someone. There was at least one woman in that class as well, so if this is some jingoistic attitude which means something manly, with this utterance, I don't think it was particularly used correctly.

Formally, though, when called upon by sensei or in a formal shiai setting, the word is "hai" in a judo dojo, and frankly, I hadn't heard osu used in any other MA dojo as much as this one, at least not in every pass or greeting, entering a room separate from the dojo. One "10-dan" explained it as a greeting one martial artist uses when meeting another. While it may be true in a dojo beginning a work out and ending it, it does not mean "yessir" as some use it, as *hai* would be the more correct word, and I've used that for more than a few decades.

The website says one must be careful when pronouncing Japanese words, but it is the same in all languages. Perhaps the Japanese simply take it more seriously, but I've had the same reaction when studying foreign languages of any country.

In Spanish, you may ask for a glass of milk as "Vaso con leche," but in Portuguese, the same will get you a "toilet filled with milk."

Just asking to use the bathroom or calling a date by a word you think is endearing, may ellicit anger or hostility if the word is used informally. In fact, it could get you beat up if an older brother is around.

Japanese is no different. Perhaps more difficult but no different in vernacular.
****

Many things are turned around from the country of the founder to that of the student. A black belt in six months or less is more common in Japan than the US, in fact it is less common to get one in less than eight years in judo in the US. In Japan, it is the norm. The Japanese simply mean what shodan implies, and that is the beginning.

BTW: Do the Japanese bump chests after swishing a basket from thirty feet out?

Mark

john mark

8th June 2001, 10:42

Originally posted by Joseph Svinth
FWIW, I have a Kyokushin background and have been in schools where the folks say "Osu" every 30 seconds, and between us, I also find it rather off-putting. That said, the word definitely is part of some of the mainstream teachings. As a result, it should, IMO, be considered part of the Kyokushin Kai subculture rather than indicative of ability or anything else. My personal guess is that the original Kyokushin Kai teachers and players were not always the best educated kids on their block, and so they lived in a subculture in which "Yo" was said regularly.

Interestingly, some of the worst pronunciations and usage of osu I've heard came from round-eyes who spent years in Japan, while some of the better pronunciations and usages came from folks who have never been closer to Japan than Kinokuniya's.

Yo!

In the Kyokushin Dojo that I have trained at, "OSU" is used as a greeting, an acknowledgement (e.g., I understand) and at the beginning and end of free fighting. Otherwise it means Ohio State University.

Best,

dakotajudo

8th June 2001, 13:52

Thanks for the input.

One reason I started this here is that it is my opinion that incorrect usage Japanese in a MA context may be a symptom of an incomplete education in the Japanese MA.

In this case, consider the beginner who, hearing the word 'osu' in the dojo, uses 'osu' at every opportunity. This person either leaves the dojo before learning the 'hai' (as Mark said) is generally more appropriate, or just really doesn't pay attention to what going on. This person then leaves the dojo and starts teaching on his own, telling his students to use 'osu' when addressing him as a sign of respect.

If this hypothetical person didn't learn the correct usage of Japanese such as 'osu', might we be concerned that this person didn't learn correct usage of a lot of the art? In other words, did he leave his teacher before his education was complete?

Obviously, this is just a made up example, but this is a concern I have about incorrect Japanese usage. I'm not really a grammar freak, but bad Japanese raises a red flag for me.

Osu

Peter

Jeff Hamacher

8th June 2001, 13:54

my 4 years of training experience in japan tells me that "osu" is not used that commonly amongst martial artists in general, although it seems a common expression for karatedoka. i have *never* used it in my aikido training, yet interestingly enough my friend's aikido dojo in toronto (Aikido Yoshinkai Canada headquarters, Kimeda-sensei, 8-dan dojocho) uses it liberally. go figure. jodo training involves very few spoken greetings, although the normal flow of dojo conversation in japanese includes a good number of greetings that are common in other martial arts training.

my wife agrees with the interpretation that "osu" is a japanese old-time manly kind of "yo". bear in mind that what sounds like "osu" at first may simply be a severely truncated "onegai shimasu" (please do me this favour), or in some cases "ohayo gozaimasu" (good morning).

the "osu" greeting rather grates on my nerves, but then i'm not really in a position to criticize.:D and i don't think it has much to do with good or bad budo training; far better to concern oneself with bigger issues.

later, jeff hamacher

DavidMasaki

8th June 2001, 15:29

Here are several links to the meaning of "osu" in Kyokushin. The first one is the most informative.

http://www.uskyokushin.com/philosophy.htm

http://www.geocities.com/ponchoflash/osu.htm

http://www.geocities.com/ponchoflash/osu.htm

dakotajudo

9th June 2001, 15:28

Originally posted by Jeff Hamacher

<snip>

the "osu" greeting rather grates on my nerves, but then i'm not really in a position to criticize.:D and i don't think it has much to do with good or bad budo training; far better to concern oneself with bigger issues.

later, jeff hamacher

I didn't want this be a discussion of 'osu' per se, or to imply that using 'osu' is in itself bad budo (although I do appreciate the education).

The bigger issue is this:

As you train in an art, you learn not the just techniques but the culture of the art. You train regularly, travel to seminars and generally immerse yourself in the culture of the art.

My question is that if you have not spent the time in the art to learn nuances of the culture of the art (such as using 'hai' or 'osu', or naming techniques correctly, or many other small details), you may have also missed the nuances of the techniques themselves.

Not bad budo for a beginner. But *may* be bad budo in an instructor.

I once asked an aikido instructor what style he taught. His answer was "Daito-ryu". Technically not incorrect, since some people consider aikido a dervative of Daito-ryu aikijutsu. However, in most aikido dojos I've trained in, 'style' refers to Aikikai, or Ki Society, or Yoshinkan, etc.

So that's a red flag coming from a teacher.

To use David Masaki's analogy of 'bug' from another thread. If you ask a kid what he's collecting, 'bugs' is an acceptable answer. If you ask a biologist what he's collecting, 'bugs' is not acceptable. Almost any biologist who made it past the first year should be able to tell you 'beetles', 'flies', 'ants', etc. If they're all bugs, he hasn't been around biology long enough to have learned.

If I went to an Aikikai aikido seminar and heard a white belt use 'osu', I would think he's coming from another art. If I heard a black belt use 'osu' (especially if he did the palm over fist salute) I would question his rank. That usage is very rare in Aikikai. 'hai' and a bow is much more common.

Peter

Rob Alvelais

9th June 2001, 21:32

Osu is widely used in Japanese karate circles, where the instr. or head of the org has had the influence of the college teams.

Our organization, Japan Karate-Do Organization, uses "Osu" a lot. I've been to seminars with Mr. Fumio Demura, Teruo Hayashi, Yukioshi Marutani and others where not only "Osu" was used by the participants, but these gentlemen used it as well.

I've heard the term used at some Aikido seminars here in Northern California.

So, any connection between "Osu" and bad budo is a mistaken one, as certainly these gentlemen are far, far from bad budo.

Rob

DavidMasaki

12th June 2001, 09:14

Originally posted by dakotajudo

If I went to an Aikikai aikido seminar and heard a white belt use 'osu', I would think he's coming from another art. If I heard a black belt use 'osu' (especially if he did the palm over fist salute) I would question his rank. That usage is very rare in Aikikai. 'hai' and a bow is much more common.

Peter

I've heard an Aikikai instructor in Hawaii say Osu as he bowed, and Hawaii is where the first Aikido school outside of Japan opened. But he didn't say Osu as much as is used in Kyokushin. I guess it depends on the school and art. I don't know who wrote that 24hourfightingchickens article, but it really was pure speculation on Osu without going to any credible and knowledgeable source for information, and as a result, way off base. Osu definitely does not mean "Yo!" Goes to show that just because it's on the Internet and looks pretty, doesn't mean it's true.

Jeff Hamacher

12th June 2001, 11:30

Originally posted by DavidMasaki

Osu definitely does not mean "Yo!"
when i originally asked my wife (who is japanese) about "osu", one possible "translation" she gave me was "a old-fashioned kind of greeting between men, a sort of manly 'hi' or 'yo'." tonight she's reneged on that and now tells me that in essence it means "Yes, sir!", as a soldier would reply to a commanding officer, although i'm lead to believe that members of the modern-day Japanese Self-Defense Force (the military) use the term "ryokai" instead of "osu". outside of martial arts, it would have been used by members of japanese school cheerleading squads whenever they responded to instructions from a senior member. i've looked up "osu" a number of times using the biggest, heaviest versions of the Kojien (the Webster's of the japanese language) i can find to no avail, so it seems there may not be a quick and easy way to give a definitive answer. my apologies for throwing a spanner in the works with my last post; i just hope my wife's story doesn't change again.;)

later, jeff hamacher

DavidMasaki

12th June 2001, 11:52

Originally posted by Jeff Hamacher

my apologies for throwing a spanner in the works with my last post; i just hope my wife's story doesn't change again.;)

later, jeff hamacher

Sorry, I hope you didn't feel my comment about "yo" was directed at you. I was actually really referring to that web article which went on a long authoritative-sounding rant about the usage of the word "osu" and ended with, "The shortest definition of osu: 'Yo!' Use it accordingly."

Rob Alvelais

12th June 2001, 15:19

Originally posted by DavidMasaki

I don't know who wrote that 24hourfightingchickens article, but it really was pure speculation on Osu without going to any credible and knowledgeable source for information, and as a result, way off base. Osu definitely does not mean "Yo!" Goes to show that just because it's on the Internet and looks pretty, doesn't mean it's true.

You know, the guy lived in Japan for a couple of years, worked as a translator (Japanese-English) and speaks fluent Japanese. What sort of credible and knowledgable source do you want? If you were to give the definition of "Whazzzuh!" would it be reasonable for you to site a whole bunch of pointy headed references, or would your fluency in English be sufficient?

With regard to Osu = Yo, it is indeed a valid definition, as far as the common usage (misusage?) of Osu in the US karate 'community' is concerned (at least within the circles of the USAKF, AAU Karate and USANKF). I've observed Osu used: as a greeting, to mean 'hello', to indicate agreement, to indicate the affirmative (i.e., yes), to indicate understanding, to say "thank you for your instruction" (as when Teruo Hayashi corrects someone's technique they stand at attention, bow and say Osu) and generally wherever 'Yo' could be used. Granted, this may be more of a slang usage (misusage?) of the term much in the way that "Bad" can indicate bad or good, depending on the context. The "dictionary" definition might be one thing, but its common usage is another, just like with 'bad' vs 'bad'.

I think that the problem is that it's being misused mostly by well intentioned non-Japanese speakers.

Rob

DavidMasaki

13th June 2001, 08:36

Originally posted by Rob Alvelais

You know, the guy lived in Japan for a couple of years, worked as a translator (Japanese-English) and speaks fluent Japanese. What sort of credible and knowledgable source do you want? If you were to give the definition of "Whazzzuh!" would it be reasonable for you to site a whole bunch of pointy headed references, or would your fluency in English be sufficient?

In his article, he approaches the topic as an outsider and goes to a linguist and deciphers the kanji used to write osu. However, the article is about the use of osu in karate dojos and he doesn't go to anyone knowledgeable about karate to ask them about it. He's trying to enforce the general Japanese population's use of the word osu upon karate community where it could mean something quite different. His contention is that the use of the word osu is slaughtering of the Japanese language, as where he says,

Some Japanese [karate instructors] will have you using this word as you greet them, simply because they want you to have fun and project toughness and sincerity. Others will get angry if you "osu" them, although this is less likely outside of Japan since the instructors here are fairly used to non-Japanese slaughtering their language for fun.

There are more karate dojos and styles than the few he's been to and each has their own culture and traditions. As you pointed out, several well respected karate instructors you've met use the word osu liberally. But according to this guy, they're just using osu because they don't care about karate culture and just want you to have fun, or they're financially poor karate instructors and aren't dignified enough to care. Do you agree with that? He may have lived 4 years in Japan, but he's making broad generalizations and condemning many karate practitioners for their use of the word osu. As I said in another thread, each field has their own lexicon of words. They may take words and bend the meaning, but because another group uses the word differently, it doesn't mean they're wrong.

[/B]
With regard to Osu = Yo, it is indeed a valid definition, as far as the common usage (misusage?) of Osu in the US karate 'community' is concerned (at least within the circles of the USAKF, AAU Karate and USANKF). I've observed Osu used: as a greeting, to mean 'hello', to indicate agreement, to indicate the affirmative (i.e., yes), to indicate understanding, to say "thank you for your instruction" (as when Teruo Hayashi corrects someone's technique they stand at attention, bow and say Osu) and generally wherever 'Yo' could be used. Granted, this may be more of a slang usage (misusage?) of the term much in the way that "Bad" can indicate bad or good, depending on the context. The "dictionary" definition might be one thing, but its common usage is another, just like with 'bad' vs 'bad'.
I think that the problem is that it's being misused mostly by well intentioned non-Japanese speakers.
Rob [/B]

Maybe this is where we differ. Maybe your definition of the word "yo" differs from mine, because I have never used the word "yo" as a way to thank someone. I have never used "yo" to mean yes or affirm something. I didn't bother looking up the "official" definition of "yo" but to me, it's more of an attention getter, like "hey". E.g. "Hey, how you doing?" or "Yo, what's up?" I'd consider it pretty rude if I did a favor for someone and all they said to me was "yo," to "thank" me.

I think the definition of "osu" in the karate dojo more closely resembles what is described on the uskyokushin.com site where it is one of respect and spirit, and not a lowly slang word used by people who don't understand what they're saying, as the author of the article describes. And considering that the IKO Kyokushinkai was one of the largest karate organizations in the world (if not the largest) prior to the death of Mas Oyama in 1994, and they use the word osu liberally, how can you tell them they're wrong?

Asia

13th June 2001, 14:09

Rob (Redmond, not you Alveis :p)is very knowledgeable about Japan but it writing style takes some time to get use to. He is abbrasive and straight forward, but that just adds to his charm:cool:.

I grew up in Japan, and other parts of the world, and here is my take on the Almighty OSU!!!. Is used by males of many athletic clubs in schools (High school, University, etc.) (karate, judo, soccer, boxing) It seems to rougher the sport the more its used, my observation. It is also used in a lot of media depicting sports or activity. Ex: Son Goku always started the previews of the next episode with "Osu, Ora Goku" (Hey, Yo I'm Goku), Manga Osu Karate Club, "Osu!!" shouted in victory by Kyokugen Karateka, SuperBall members shouted Osu after scoring a point, etc. You won't really find pple running around the streets shouting OSU but go to a place where there are boys and sweating and grunting and you may hear it alot. Americans tend to use it soully for a Japanese feel to their Karate. I don't use it now but when I was younger in school I did.

Other bad Nihongo Budo. How many hear "Ippon" shouted as "EYEPPON" at tournaments

Budo00

13th June 2001, 14:19

After reading all of these posts, I can see that this is a highly controversial subject.

I do not feel any more secure as to what the correct pronunciation or word to use is... so when in Rome....

In shotokan karate dojo's I trained in, "hei" is generally used. I have also heard a word that I am guessing was OSU but sounded more like: Ush (rhymes with mush, bush, push.)

In some ken dojo's I have visited, OSU was more like "OOSSss" at times.

I guess one could argue that this is yet an other reason why Americans should not try to teach the Japanese language unless they know it.

Sincerely,

Dean

Ron Tisdale

13th June 2001, 20:07

As someone has already mentioned, Yoshinkan Aikido has used the term "osu" since its inception. Apparently, as a previous poster has stated, it came out of the university judo club environment where Gozo Shioda first trained in judo. It has a mix of conotations; hello, train hard, an acknowledgment of a command. I have always heard it pronounced kind of like oos with no sh on the end (but other traditions may vary).

Several people have commented on its lack of use in "polite" society...I would concur with this. Used outside of the training environment, or even in a dojo where its not used, it would seem rude. Even in the Yoshinkan it has been known to be overused in some dojo outside of Japan. My most embarrasing moments: when I forget *not* to say osu when training with a different group of folks.

In the dojo, there are times when you wouldn't use it. Where I train, you would say "osu" *only once*, when first called up during a test, but never after that. Past a certain grade, using it could probably cause you to fail your test.

There are some pretty interesting flame wars on rec.martial-arts about this term...no one I know of has ever found it in a japanese dictionary. But since Inoue Sensei, Dojo-cho of the Yoshinkan uses it, I'll keep using it too (hopefully in the right place and context).

I guess the bottom line is different strokes for different folks, even in Japan. But I do love it when someone tries to sound all authoritative and stuff, and tell you it should never be used, or isnt even a word :)

Ron (I probably say osu too much) Tisdale

Osu!

:nono:

MarkF

15th June 2001, 08:57

Originally posted by Budo00
In shotokan karate dojo's I trained in, "hei" is generally used. I have also heard a word that I am guessing was OSU but sounded more like: Ush (rhymes with mush, bush, push.)

I think you mean "hai?" That is actually a word, and in all or most forms, means yes, yessir, etc.

I think you get the sound of a soft "sh" sound because the *u* is almost imperceptable, and sometimes does sound that way. If it does have the "sh" sound, well, as Ron said, I think, "When in Rome...?"

But OOSSss is how I have heard it most, but some consider it to be a formal greeting, and is pronounced Osu, as it is usually spelled.

Where I come from, being called on for anything, the proper word IS *hai* and with a long tournament career, I never heard it (osu) there. In fact, those who used it the most tended to be some fireplug from Japan who dared you to throw him by grunting a soft ooossssss .

If it isn't in a romaji dictionary, expect to see it soon, is my guess.:)

ghp

15th June 2001, 16:31

I have also heard a word that I am guessing was OSU but sounded more like: Ush (rhymes with mush, bush, push.)

"Ushu" is the Japanese equivalent of our "Unnnnh!" when straining. It is very common to hear someone say "ushu" when doing heavy lifting, and most anything else where exertion is required (I say it getting out of bed!). Some of you might have heard a "cadence caller" begin the group chore by saying "sei, no ..." (sorta like "heave..." portion of "Heave-ho"), then all the others pushing, pulling, lifting, whatever .. they will say "ushu" ("....ho!") in unison.

Is this sort of what you recall? Or was it as Mark surmises ... that you might not have heard the "osu" clearly?

Regards,
Guy

Budo00

15th June 2001, 19:41

In Philadelphia at the ISKF, two words were used to confirm some thing or say 'yes.' Ush (pronounced like mush, push,) and Hai (pronounced like hi and why)

Just fyi, in my martial arts class (iskf related,) we say 'hai' and 'yes, sir.'

My sensei also has stated that he has heard 'Ush' in Japan and was not familiar with Ooss.

I think a lot of different dojo's in America and Japan have different pronunciations of the same word.

I am an American so I do not know and in the long run, I don't think it really matters.

Dean Nelson

Joseph Svinth

16th June 2001, 23:27

In the community newspapers in Hawaii and Los Angeles, traditional karate appears on the society rather than the sport pages, and in society circles, you simply don't scream "Osu!"

Kyokushin Kai, now, rarely makes the society pages.

DavidMasaki

17th June 2001, 02:41

Originally posted by Joseph Svinth
In the community newspapers in Hawaii and Los Angeles, traditional karate appears on the society rather than the sport pages, and in society circles, you simply don't scream "Osu!"

Kyokushin Kai, now, rarely makes the society pages.

I live in Hawaii and karate is rarely in the paper, but when it is, it's still in the sports section, with the exception of one article about a week ago on a traditional karate guy that tells people they have to quit his dojo if they want to enter competitions. So I guess that pretty much disqualifies him from the sports section.

Is the point you're trying to make that Kyokushin is discriminated against being in the society section because they say "osu" in their dojos? As pointed out in this thread, they're not alone, and that argument sounds pretty silly to me... Kyokushin karateka don't go around telling people "osu" other than fellow karateka, just like they don't go punching and kicking people they meet on the street. Dojo etiquette in almost any martial art is different from the real world. Seems you're insinuating that Kyokushin karateka don't know the difference, and scream "osu" at everybody, which is ridiculous.

MarkF

17th June 2001, 09:37

On this matter, as in most regarding language and etiquette, rely on Guy.

I never considered that, but I've heard that, too, but in the way Guy relates.

Thank you, Guy, for helping me out of the hole I had dug myself.:)
***

Joe's comment concerning kyokushinkai karate, it is more of the "working man's" karate full contact and as such is part of the work.

In other words, it isn't pretty but gets the job done.

Mark

Jerry Johnson

17th June 2001, 14:08

I wonder if this is an issue in Japan ?

Jeff Hamacher

18th June 2001, 02:25

Originally posted by Jerry Johnson
I wonder if this is an issue in Japan ?
it's been my experience that virtually everything about training in martial arts comes down to the teacher, and in certain ways the teacher's teacher(s). i assume this is similar to training outside of japan as well. however, the difference may be in the way that non-japanese perceive martial arts training, and japanese society in general.

to make a gross generalization, the japanese are a ritualistic society, and in many cases they deal with situations according to "rituals" or "traditions". in some situations, a traditional formula may be the only way a particular social activity is carried out. martial arts students in foreign countries may sometimes get the impression that the formulae of etiquette they are taught comprise the first and last word on the way that martial arts students train in japan. naturally, this isn't the case.

japanese are as individual as any human beings, and thus the way they learn and the way they teach are affected by their personality. as others have said, particular martial arts or schools within each art usually have a fixed set of rituals which form the standard rules of etiquette for that group. but beyond that, each teacher tends to set their own rules for the dojo, within whatever leeway their art may allow them.

my teachers have never taught me to use "osu", and so i don't. had i been taught to use it, of course i would. i've seen my teacher's master (the head of our regional Aikikai association) lead keiko at the local university campus where the students tend to respond with choruses of "hai" during all-class instruction, whereas i've never been taught to do this. i do respond with "hai" when receiving personal instruction during training, and "arigatou gozaimashita" when my teacher's finished speaking to me.

assuming you've checked out your teacher's credentials and visited their dojo to get a feel for the dojo "vibe" before you started training, just go with what you're taught and you can't go far wrong.

hope this helps, jeff hamacher

PS "ushu" is more correctly rendered as "yoshi", or in some cases "yo-sha!". in generally means "All right!", "Attaboy!", or "Right on!" it's root is "yoroshii", meaning "good, acceptable".

Joseph Svinth

18th June 2001, 10:33

Maybe you consider the Honolulu Advertiser ( http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2001/Jun/10/il/il01a.html ) a community newspaper, but since it's the state's largest paper, I'd be more inclined to classify it as a metropolitan daily. So, when I said "community newspapers," I was thinking more in terms of Hawaii Herald and Rafu Shimpo. For examples, see Alissa Hiraga, "Saving the Spirit," _Rafu Magazine_, August 4, 2000, and Tomu Arakawa, "Karate Ni Sente Nashi (Karate is for self defense, not offense)," _Of Andagi and Sanshin: Okinawan Culture in Hawai’i_, Ruth Adaniya, Alice Njus, and Margaret Yamate, editors (Honolulu: Hui O Laulima, 1988).

As for the other comment, as was stated several times earlier in this thread, Kyokushin Kai karateka are not discriminated against because they say "Osu," they are discriminated against because they tend to be working-class youths with limited education and social status.

ghp

19th June 2001, 21:45

Jeff,

PS "ushu" is more correctly rendered as "yoshi", or in some cases "yo-sha!". in generally means "All right!", "Attaboy!", or "Right on!" it's root is "yoroshii", meaning "good, acceptable".

You are absolutely correct about "yoshi".... but that's different than the pick-up-a-heavy-item-and-grunt "ushu."

Yoshi! ... Ush!! .. Uggh!
Guy

MarkF

20th June 2001, 09:37

I don't know about everyone else, but I'm having flashbacks to "Karate kid."

(Damn! I knew that was bad acid but I took it anyway). Hehe.

Mark

Jeff Hamacher

21st June 2001, 05:07

Originally posted by ghp
You are absolutely correct about "yoshi".... but that's different than the pick-up-a-heavy-item-and-grunt "ushu."

i asked a colleague about this, and he said he didn't have a definitive answer. as far as he knew, there is no standard japanese word which is written "ushu", but that it was probably just the way that one might hear the word "yoshi" when someone grunted it, and thus "ushu" does not exist as a separate term. i tend to agree with his perception. it's sort of like bastardizing english words, e.g. writing "sez" instead of "says", or saying "gonna" instead of "going to".

on the other hand, Guy, your experiences in japan may tell you something different. japanese has so many regionalisms (which are disappearing quite rapidly) that the word "ushu" may actally exist somewhere outside this part of Nagano Prefecture, which, according to linguists, originally had four distinct dialect regions. ah, yes, as i fall ever deeper into my own navel ...:laugh:

cheers, jeff hamacher

Ron Tisdale

5th July 2001, 15:31

This used to be on the IYAF site. I thought it was lost, but found it in the archives of rec.martial-arts. Robert Mustard is now 5th Dan. Enjoy!

****************************
For all of those that debate the proper use of "osu", I found an article that may
help explain it. The article is from Aikido Yoshinkan Internatinal, Vol 6 No. 1,
June 1995. The article is writtent by Robert Mustard Shidoin. Enjoy..

" All of us who practice Yoshinkan Aikido are familiar with the word 'ous'.
We us it when we enter the dojo, when we start class, when the sensei show us a
technique, when we pur beer for each other at parties and expecially when Takeno
Sensei or Chida Sensei yell at us and we don't know what they're talking about! I
even use it when I receive my dry cleaning or get my change at the seven-eleven,
which usually results in strange looks from the respective cashiers. But what
does 'osu' really mean? Does it have a deeper meaning?
"In Japan, the only people who use 'osu' are usually the sports teams off the
high schols and universities, and most Karate styles. In most companies you wil
hear 'osu', but it is usually a lazy mans way of saying "Ohaiyo gozaimasu" (Good
morning). As far as I know, the only style of Aikido that uses this word is the
Yoshinkan style of Shioda Gozo.
"Kancho Sensei attended Takushoku University, which as a strong reputation
for its hard training in budo, and it also has a reputation as a stronghold for
far right-wing sentiments. My former Kendo teacher was the captain of the
Takushoku University kendo team, and he told me training stories that made my
hair stand on end. In order to continue the takudai and old style tradition of
hard training (shugyo), Yoshinkan Aikido continues the use of 'osu' while other
styles do not.
"If you look at the word 'osu' written in the original Chinese, it is
comprised of two characters. The first character is 'OSU', which the dictionary
defines as "push". The second is 'NIN' which the dictionary defines as SHINOBU,
meaning to endure, persevere, put up with. If you put them together you get
(Chinese figure shown) ie. to push ourselves to endure any hardship, in training
or in our daily lives.
"Also, in the field of budo it is used as a greeting or reply with the
connotation as a sign of your willingness to follow a particular teacher or way
or training.
"The most important aspect of the word 'osu' is that we must not let the
word, through repeated overuse with no felling, lose its meaning of reminding
ourselves to always train as hard as possible. It must come from our hearts and
really have meaning. I have had the experience of showing some people techniques
or correcting their techniques and their reply of 'osu' has left me
with the felling that they are not interested in what I have to say or
teach, and kind of telling me to go away. Needless to say, I refrained
from showing or teaching these people further until they showed me by
their actions that they wanted to learn.
"Surely there can be no greater misrepresentation of Yoshinkan
Aikido, than a person saying they practice Yoshinkan Aikido but their
'osu' has no conviction or spirit. I don't want to give the impression
that we should always be screaming OSU at each other at the tops of our
lungs, but let's try to find in ourselves the conviction to always do
our best ijn our training and also in our daily lives. Kancho Sensei
always said "aiki soku seikatsu" or "Aikido is life".
"I wish you good luck with you training.
"Osu".

Hope that helps your understanding a little.

Eric....

********************
RT

Darren_Friend

30th July 2004, 02:09

Originally posted by Jeff Hamacher
my 4 years of training experience in japan tells me that "osu" is not used that commonly amongst martial artists in general, although it seems a common expression for karatedoka. i have *never* used it in my aikido training, yet interestingly enough my friend's aikido dojo in toronto (Aikido Yoshinkai Canada headquarters, Kimeda-sensei, 8-dan dojocho) uses it liberally. go figure. jodo training involves very few spoken greetings, although the normal flow of dojo conversation in japanese includes a good number of greetings that are common in other martial arts training.

my wife agrees with the interpretation that "osu" is a japanese old-time manly kind of "yo". bear in mind that what sounds like "osu" at first may simply be a severely truncated "onegai shimasu" (please do me this favour), or in some cases "ohayo gozaimasu" (good morning).

the "osu" greeting rather grates on my nerves, but then i'm not really in a position to criticize.:D and i don't think it has much to do with good or bad budo training; far better to concern oneself with bigger issues.

later, jeff hamacher

Osu! is the first thing taught to students at Yoshinkan Honbu. We say it with pride and put feeling into the word. It has become an expression of the Yoshinkan group and is a link with old Japan, which is a big part of what budo training is about, isn't it?

Osu is emphasised to the kokusai senshusei at Yoshinkan honbu(international Special Students) from day 1. They learn to use their diagphram to really expel feeling into the word. We do not encourage the response of hai! to instruction in class. This is seen more as a hai hai (yeh Yeh) response and not appropiate.

Outside the dojo I used to work with a lot of older guys and they would use it when entering the office. Its not used widely outside in regular conversation.

For me its a part of the art, just like putting on the dogi. You don't need to say Osu or wear a dogi in order to train, but it helps complete the picture. I know its not applied at all schools, but its part of the older Japanse culture that we are drawing on and so use it.

RobertW

30th July 2004, 03:16

I have heard OSU translated as a kind of "givr'" or "givr' man". I dunno. I know the Okinawans don't use it. Who cares? Some people like it some don't. I figure as long as it isn't negative, what the hey?

Kimpatsu

30th July 2004, 03:20

Originally posted by dakotajudo
I've seen the word osu used here recently, so when this appeared on a email group I subscribe to, I thought I'd bring it over. If this has already been posted in the past I apologize.

http://www.24fightingchickens.com/shotokan/heresy/osu.html

Since I consider incorrect usage of Japanese in the context of Japanese martial arts as an indicator of bad budo, I'm posting this link here.

Note I said indicator, not bad budo per se. But it is a symptom (much as poor grammar is a symptom of an inadequate education).

Peter
People say "osu" just to push your buttons, Peter. It's a male thing... :D

Jock Armstrong

30th July 2004, 05:33

The idea that "osu" is a contraction of "ohayo gozaimasu" is spot on I think. I told by one of the older teachers at a school in Shizuoka that the contraction was originally from the military [Imperial Navy and Army] but filtered out into sports teams, teachers and businessmen before the war. It indicates determination , toughness and not a little right wing leanings. The principal of the school I taught at used to reply "osu" to my "ohayo gozaimasu"- he didn't like me being there, tainting his japanese students, teachers and area with my foreignness. Mind you, country Shizuoka has a rep for having lots of twits riding the black and white buses, speakers blasting...........The other folks were cool though.

Kimpatsu

30th July 2004, 13:14

Now you're pushing it, Jock... :D

paul manogue

30th July 2004, 17:39

I remember learning osu for everything in the yoshinkan ochiai dojo, it was very prevalent and a few people there related it to Shioda sensei's time in the military, similar to the "hooya" in the rangers.
Very useful for when your out of breath, or confused, or both.
Once I switched to aikikai (buikukai)and Yagyu in Osaka I was told it was not polite and a bit too "nationalistic" in our circles and that I should not use it. The nihon kenpo guys were also very fond of it, but that group at least was very right wing.

MasterofNothing

30th July 2004, 18:20

I saw the post title and thought you guys
were talking about college football predictions for the fall.

:D

hedkikr

11th February 2005, 19:42

I found this string amusing, informative & over-discussed. I was told by my (native) Japanese sensei that OSU meant patience & endurance. This was confirmed several years later by Horst (sorry I've forgotten your last name), a MA magazine publisher in Austria who reads & speaks Japanese (including much Kanji). He also confirmed my original interpretation & added that it's a contraction for "ohayo gozaimasu" (good morning) & "onegaishimasu" (please accomidate me). After reading the Kyokushinkai site, I've had my understanding confirmed again. OSU is used too much...my students used to think OSU meant "yes". So let's get back to using it appropriately to remind ourselves & each other to persevere & push ourselves physically, mentally & spiritually.

Michael Bland

11th February 2005, 22:42

OSU is used like "yes" and also used like a greeting. I spent 8 years in Japan and can confirm its use both in and out of karate dojo. It is a somewhat macho thing to say, though women will sometimes say it as a joke.

(I like the old:
Osu
Mesu
Kissu
Pantsu

exchange)

I personally believe that the kanji they use for "osu" is just something they stuck on it later to satisfy the Japanese budo codes... but in karate circles they certainly all use that kanji for it if asked for a kanji. See the attached image. However, in general writing I usually see it in kana. So, again, I wonder at the validity of this kanji.

But it being a contraction of onegai shimasu seems possible... ohayo gozaimasu less likely, but remotely possible.

In any case, thinking it has some deep spiritual meaning is over the top for me.. it's just a greeting and affirmative response with some macho overtones.

my 2 yen.

hedkikr

11th February 2005, 23:09

Clarification: spiritual (small "s") as in fighting spitit not in the religious context. Too many gaijin misunderstand the concept of "spiritual" (an internal process/state of mind) because they still associate MA w/mystical properties. I'm sure, w/ 8 yrs in Japan, you aren't one of them but I'm sure you'd agree. (being 1/2 Japanese & having lived in Japan, I have some insight into the culture)

climbthis

14th February 2005, 21:54

this is the explanation i got, and posted in another forum about 'osu' a couple years ago:

i heard it came from old yudansha who'd gone out drinking the nite before and were too hungover to say the whole "onegai shimasu" in the morning.

that's mine, and i'm stickin to it.

osu

jerome cervantes

hedkikr

15th February 2005, 00:02

:toast:

OSU

Mekugi

15th February 2005, 01:03

Originally posted by john mark
Otherwise it means Ohio State University.

Best,

Osegon State University, thank you very much.;) Is Ohio still a state?

climbthis

15th February 2005, 02:23

OSU:toast:

ed, ha! bingo!!!! so desu!!

osu
jerome cervantes

Aikibudoka

20th May 2005, 23:43

There are some pretty interesting flame wars on rec.martial-arts about this term...no one I know of has ever found it in a japanese dictionary. But since Inoue Sensei, Dojo-cho of the Yoshinkan uses it, I'll keep using it too (hopefully in the right place and context).

Osu!

Hi Ron

You know we would have someone who can give a translation - Robert Mustard Sensei:

"If you look at the word "Osu" written in the original Chinese, it is comprised of two characters. The first character is "Osu", which the dictionary defines as "push". The second character is "Nin", which the dictionary defines as "Shinobu", which means endure, persevere, put up with. If you put them together you get - to push ourselves to endure any hardship, in training or in our daily lives."

If you want to read the whole article, it is on - http://www.shudokan.org.uk/osu/index.htm

Hope that helps the discussion.

Osu!

Si

Aikibudoka

20th May 2005, 23:48

Damn, I should have read on before posting, as you had already got it in there, Ron!!! :rolleyes: :)

Oh well, got a quick plug for my website!

:) :) :)

kimiwane

29th July 2005, 17:40

Hey, are you the same Guy Power who visited my dojo, Birmingham Budokan, and demonstrated the happo giri of Toyama Ryu back in about 1985 or '86?

kimiwane

29th July 2005, 17:52

my wife agrees with the interpretation that "osu" is a japanese old-time manly kind of "yo". bear in mind that what sounds like "osu" at first may simply be a severely truncated "onegai shimasu" (please do me this favour), or in some cases "ohayo gozaimasu" (good morning).

I read that it was generally a truncation of "ohayo gozaimasu," beginning with Naval students and spreading through the martial arts world as they trained in various dojo. Morihei Ueshiba taught at the Imperial Naval Academy of Japan for some long time. Mochizuki Minoru sensei helped him there for some time, but after he left, Shioda sensei may have taken up the assistant's position and so the usage could have spread into Yoshinkan. I never heard it at Mochizuki sensei's school.

But I hear it from karate people. One in particular trained with Kanazawa and Enoeda at the Shotokan HQ back in the late 1950s. From time to time, my phone will ring and when I say "Hello," I hear, "Osu" and I know who it is.

As for "yo," I hear that all the time in Japanese from every level of person.

I had an embarrassing lesson about that once when I someone said something and I replied "Dame yo."

"Are you a girl?" the speaker asked.

That's how I found out that men have to say "Dame da yo."

But I often hear "So da yo," and the like in ordinary speech.

Are you refering to something like "yo" as a response all in itself, as:

"Kenichi!"

"Yo!"

That way?

I used to know a former Marine who said that all the time and he had no martial arts or Japanese bachground at all. I thought it was a US military thing?

kimiwane

29th July 2005, 18:07

Hey, are you the same Guy Power who visited my dojo...back in about 1985 or '86?

Well, if I had looked at your website, I wouldn't have had to ask--unless there is more than one Guy Power associated with Toyama ryu.

You gave a very impressive demo for me and a friend. Unbelievable how generous you were with that.

You were an Army Captain back then, I believe. Still in the Army?

I told Paul Couch sensei about meeting you and I think he may have spoken with you at some point concerning Obata sensei. He is now SE US representative for Obata sensei, who often visits Birmingham.

Again, thanks.

gcarson

30th July 2005, 17:20

1- oshi
2- shinobu

1+2 = "to persevere whilst being pushed" or many other similar statements

I've also heard it described as 'to continue on and never show the pain'

Cheers

Eric Montes

3rd August 2005, 20:28

Here is the environment where you will find "osu" most prevalent.

http://mdn.mainichi-msn.co.jp/national/news/20050803p2a00m0na008000c.html

gcarson

4th August 2005, 05:41

During my trip to Osaka in Nov 05, I met a lot of full contact fighters from all over, the americas, europe, middle east and of course Japan. I think all but a very few used OSU liberally as a greeting/farewell. I also saw/heard it used a lot in the Dojo. My only exposure to it has been in the knockdown karate world, but I see that it crosses over a lot.....I've never seen it used negatively though.

gcarson

7th August 2005, 02:37

Whhooops...that should read November 04

My time machine isn't working fully yet..

Andrew S

15th September 2005, 13:45

As already noted, the characters for "osu" (occasionally Anglified as "oss") mean "to push" (押) and "to endure" (忍)
Kanazawa's SKI Kumite Kyohan, p. 24, has this to say on the subject:
"... "Talent is nothing without effort". The key word "OSS" used to recall this saying to the young in order to them to make a resolution, to convey it to each other and to encourage each other was, according to the author the function of the word when it was maybe first used in the Japanese Naval School."

I hope this is helpful.

Regards,

Andrew

Mukeido

18th September 2005, 14:51

As the previous owner/manager of a Japanese Karaoke/shot bar and having worked in Japan in several similar establishments I will give my experience.

Whether male or female it was used on a regular basis by ALL my staff in greeting - just before starting a shift. It was told to me that osu, as Andrew said, means to prepare endurance, to keep your spirits up and to be ready for what may lie ahead. A kind of gambate! Basically it could be translated as "give it your best."

Several well known customers would also use osu when greeting staff they knew at the start of a shift, and it was also used when greeting the various delivery people.

All of my staff greeted myself with osu before a shift started and ostukaresama deshita at the end of the night.

A friend works in a shop making tatami and they also greet each other with osu (and they aren't all male). So it is used far more widely than MA and college.

Brian Owens

19th September 2005, 19:01

Can anyone tell me why this thread is in Bad Budo rather than in the Language forum?

Ron Tisdale

19th September 2005, 20:10

I've had a problem with that myself...just because a dojo has a bunch of non-japanese saying OSU to each other occationally doesn't make them bad budo. Even if the pronunciation is bad, as well as the timing. Questionable, perhaps, but bad?

What message are we sending here, when we know there are valid uses of this word in several traditions?

Best,
Ron

P Goldsbury

19th September 2005, 21:12

J have just moved it to the language forum.

Saburo

19th September 2005, 21:37

Osu!!! :-)

MikeWilliams

20th September 2005, 08:49

There's a (well-regarded) BJJ school here in London whose members Ooooooossssssss at each other all the time.

No, I have no idea why.

Andrew S

21st September 2005, 14:42

There's a (well-regarded) BJJ school here in London whose members Ooooooossssssss at each other all the time.

No, I have no idea why.

Neither, I would suggest, do they.

It sounds too much those non-linguists or those with insufficient cultural background in the language to know how or when to use a word.
It's like my students of English who refer to me as "Mr. Andrew" or "Andrew Teacher", the old guy who begins every statement with "Well...", or the plethora of individuals who think every utterance in English contains "Oh". They do it because they seem to recall someone else doing it...

A story...
A man noticed that whenever his wife cooked a certain cut of meat, she would always cut the end off and give it to the dog. When asked why, she replied, "That's what my mother always did."
One day when they visited her mother they asked about it and received the reply, "That's what my mother always did."
They were fortunate enough to be able to speak to the woman's grandmother.
"Why did you always cut the end off and give it to the dog?"
"Because my frying pan was too small."

I wouldn't be surprised if "osu" filtered down into karate through the nationalists at Takushoku and this being further concentrated in Kyokushin (and its spinoff's) circles.

Andrew