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rsamurai
9th June 2001, 00:26
i hope this thread takes off.
should less emphasis be placed on competition and more on self defense. could all the rules of shiai be destroying judo as an effective martial art much like what happened to tkd after it became an olympic sport?:D

Barry Southam
9th June 2001, 04:54
Friend,

I feel that since the 1964 Olympics Judo has been unbalanced in favor of sport rather than an equal base between the Martial Art aspect and sport.... We all study JUDO and it's our secondary interest that might be different....I have always studied and taught Judo as a martial art while others favor the sporting side....Some schools do both....
Sport activity is an added benefit of Judo and is not necessarily a requirement for learning the techniques of Judo...
Throwing,Holding, Choking,Jointlocks,Falling tech., Striking and Kata....As well as the martial art application of the principles and techniques of Judo should all be taught and not neglected...
I have no problem with any of my students entering shiai if they desire and I realize the benefits of SPORT.....

Judo is an ideal form of selfdefense for young and old and also an Olympic Sport!!!! We should all tell our students this and then explain what area: Martial art or sport that we teach....

We all teach Osotogari: It's how we apply it that is different, selfdefense or sport....


We all live in the same house...


Take Care

Barry E. Southam

rsamurai
9th June 2001, 05:14
thank you for calling me friend. this is the most civil forum i ever had the pleasure of being part of.
you view judo the same as i do. most judo people i have spoken to or written to have all looked down at me for pushing the self defense aspect of judo. it seems that if you don't do sport or shiai you are not part of the judo community. this attitude has been a big turn off to me. i started studying judo to make my jujutsu better. i don't really care about the sport side. i think the rules keep judo held back. competition builds character, strength, and endurance but it can also inflate ego's. i belive if people taught the complete art(atemi was) judo would spread quicker. also if some of the rules of judo were loosened it also would help spread judo quicker. i am sure if we made judo rules where submission was what was needed to win that would also be more exciting .maybe even adopt some of bjj rules. the bjj'ers and even the wrestlers draw some pretty big crowds of people who don't even practice martial arts. just a thought. i would like to know how everybody else thinks.

thank you for your time and opinions.

AST
9th June 2001, 08:06
After more than a decade in karate, i started doing Judo for the last 6 months in order to learn some throws and ground skills.

I must say that Judo like karate has it's pluses and minuses. As a karate-ka I really like the ability to be able to apply a full speed technique on an opponent. I also think that any karate-ka could well improve their skills by cross training.

However the speed with which people want you to compete is a bit alarming. I see the kids with about half a technique under their belt being pushed into competition. I also wish they took their katas a bit more seriously. Gradings coming up and now everyone is furiously studying kata, but I know by next year it's going to be forgotten. (Pity)

I like the idea of a pure submission competition. Perhaps a combination of only ippon or submission.

It seems to me that with Judo being an Olympic sport, that is what people focus on. The techniques, skills and tricks that will win you a medal.

MarkF
9th June 2001, 10:39
To Richard Porro:
I must apologize. I tried to use your original post in this thread as a quote in one I was going to write, and accidentally clickeck on edit/delete.

I don't think I changed anything, but if there is something missing, please edit it back to the way it was.

Again, I am sorry for my error, and why you see it was I who apparently edited it. I hope it is still intact.

Mark

MarkF
9th June 2001, 10:47
There are many reasons judo is played as a sport, and some have nothing to do with the Olympics or any other international tournament.

Judo is still judo, it only depends on what you wish to take from it. As you've seen, it is very pliable, and not just in the name.

There is a thread in which people are giving their reasons for doing judo so perpaps, Richard, you would like to add your own.

Mark

BTW: Remember, the rules of the international governing body (IJF) or the various NGB, are only recommended, they are NOT written in stone. In my state local, we try to keep it as simple as possible, as it was in the old days, and for more than one reason. The rules of the IJF ( not those since its inception) take up time and money and do not permit a day of friendly combat, so we "dumbed it down" a little so to speak. Anyone, within the confines of waivers and insurance, can do so, as well.

Simon Ford-Powell
10th June 2001, 11:35
Really really agree with all of the above. I find competition very limited, speaking as someone who has always studied the self-defence combat aspects of Jiu Jiutsu/Judo. That said, I would be very much more limited myself having never done the competition side! There is no substitute for fighting a skilled opponent and the satisfaction knowing that your winning throw wasn't "given" to you. The trick is in the balance and merging of the two aspects(sport and martial). If you take a technique like Ippon Seio for example, there are differences in application, between competition and say, a full force one handed lunge at the throat. Obviously, in competition, overcoming skilled resistance, generating momemtum, etc. are key elements. In the throat lunge scenario, speed of turn, the ability to block/deflect and take the arm, plus of course, timing of entry are much more significant, momentum being already there. Two different skill attribution sets, for the same technique, both of which, help the skills required in the opposite scenario. I feel that the richness and depth of understanding lies in the practice of all aspects of an art

dakotajudo
10th June 2001, 19:25
I've found that the emotional intensity and do-or-die attitude that you experience in a competition is a lot closer to that of a self-defense situation than anything I've done in a dojo. So, win or lose, entering a competition is a good way to find out how well you respond under pressure.

On the other hand, it's much more difficult finding a teacher experienced with kime-no-kata or goshin jutsu and an experienced competitor.

On a third hand, some competitors sure seem to know a lot of pressure points!

Peter

rsamurai
10th June 2001, 19:50
Originally posted by dakotajudo
I've found that the emotional intensity and do-or-die attitude that you experience in a competition is a lot closer to that of a self-defense situation than anything I've done in a dojo. So, win or lose, entering a competition is a good way to find out how well you respond under pressure.


Peter
this would be true if the rules allowed were not so removed from reality. competition judo is a far cry from self defense. make competiton rules closer to pancrase or shootfighting than you can use the analagy of self defense. this is my problem with competition. its the rules. you fight like you train. in self defense there is no false attack, wrong grip, negative judo, matte when an ippon is scored, but there are punches, kicks, charges, and yes sometimes other people.

dakotajudo
10th June 2001, 20:39
Originally posted by rsamurai

this would be true if the rules allowed were not so removed from reality. competition judo is a far cry from self defense. make competiton rules closer to pancrase or shootfighting than you can use the analagy of self defense. this is my problem with competition. its the rules. you fight like you train. in self defense there is no false attack, wrong grip, negative judo, matte when an ippon is scored, but there are punches, kicks, charges, and yes sometimes other people.

I'd agree with that only to a point.

During one match in the last tournament I entered, the rules of judo worked to my opponent's benefit. Several times he went down to his back, with me between his legs. The ref restarted us every time I broke out of his guard, just when I had put myself in a position to do something offensive.

In contrast, in the same tournament I got dropped pretty soundly because I gave up my position and didn't respond to an attack quickly enough. There was really no time for the rules of judo to have an effect on the outcome of the match. I was put into a position I would never want to be in on the street, with an opponent standing over me, holding my arm and ready to drop into an armbar.

Still, that gives me something to work on in randori. We realized (my senior student, who also participated in the tournament, and myself) that we'd gotten complacent in randori, settling into a grip and not attacking immediately upon getting a grip (or defending against such an attack). So we've changed our training.

I'm not sure why you don't agree with matte called after ippon, since an ippon throw is traditionally a fight-ending throw. Several times when I've been thrown for ippon I certainly wasn't capable of defending myself for several moments.

I would disagree with what some refs call in ippon, though.

As for punches and kicks, Kano specifically prohibited those from randori, so atemi in competition would not be judo.

Competitive judo is what it is and probably won't change. If you feel pancrase or shootfighting is more effective for self-defense, then by all means train in those styles, or compete as a judoka in those styles.

Judo has historically, as Mark said below, been very flexible in allowing cross-training. I don't know of any judo club that would prevent you from improving your skills as you see fit by training and competing with other styles.

Peter

TIM BURTON
10th June 2001, 20:42
Hi,
I think that self-defence and competition go hand in hand in our society. Unless you are unfortunate enough to go to war or are exposed to a certain line of work, then when are you going to test not only your technique, but also your own personal fortitude.
First and foremost I teach self-defence and the style I teach borrows from a number of systems, as this was recognised by the Japanese Police to be a necessity for practical everyday situations when they created it.
However it is necessary for a place (even if it is governed by rules) that allows you to test your own limits and capabilities. Often I see someone apply an arm lock in a self-defence lesson and their partner taps out. They walk away thinking that they are able to achieve compliance should it be necessary in the street. Later in the lesson, say during some groundwork free play, the same pair struggle for twenty minutes or so to gain the advantage. The person who tapped out earlier now resists with all their being and also tries to achieve a technique of their own. They learn about themselves, their pain thresholds, stamina, mindset etc. It is difficult to gain this sort of insight in the self-defence side of the system, because one is the attacker and one the defender. The attacker usually accepts that they will receive a technique. Now, they may resist it, but they sure don’t fight it. I have tried to introduce this fighting back into self defence training but so many injuries result that you begin to build in rules, do not kick to the groin, no throat grabs etc. Suddenly you have competition not self-defence. Yes, I get the comments, “ I would have poked his eyes, kicked him in the groin, bitten off his ear, if this was for real”, I always reply, “would you now”.
How many times have you seen someone poked in the eye or kicked in the groin by accident during normal training, on many occasions, they continue saying, “I will be alright”. On the street I have seen huge men crumple, as they have never been hit before and small officers overcome the odds because they are just to mean to give in. Where do we learn this if not in a competitive arena, self-defence training provides the skills, but if you are not sure that you can cut the mustard what good are they to you. There is a place for both types of training especially if you are training to defend yourself rather than solely for sport.

Don Cunningham
10th June 2001, 20:46
As a former judo competitor, I would have said that the sport aspect has benefited judo more than it has hurt it. As I am getting older, though, I see a lot of things about sport judo which concern me.

Many former competitors become referees as they retire from shiai. These referees seem to know how to run a match without interferring with the spirit of the competition. Mark's comment, for example, is a good one about "dumbing down the rules" for local matches. It's not really feasible to meet all the mat requirements of Olympic judo in a small facility. Furthermore, these rules are intended for adult competitors, not juniors. Their body size differences and attention spans are not the same as adults, much less serious athletes.

Yet it seems like a lot of older non-competitors are dominating the referee positions now. They are often highly competitive toward referee ranks. (Judo referees are certified at local, state, regional, national, and international levels.) Sometimes I believe they feel the audience is watching them perform more than the competitors. It's one thing to know the rules well, but it takes a bit of competitive experience to understand which ones should be enforced at various levels. By trying to make everyone comply with the current IJF rules for Olympic level judo, they are killing grass-root local judo.

Some club coaches can't afford to hold local tournaments because of the mat size requirements and other restrictions. And if they do, the parents often get angry and have problems understanding why little Johnny was penalized for some esoteric aspect of the rules. Referees should remember that local tournaments for juniors (and maybe middle-aged weekend competitors) are supposed to be FUN!

Our club is fortunate to have both aspects emphasized. I bring a lot of competition experience to the training, while I have another black belt who specialized in kata and techniques, but rarely competed. Our combined approach seems to work well and ensures that most everyone gets to train the way they want.

dakotajudo
10th June 2001, 21:02
Originally posted by TIM BURTON
<snip>
How many times have you seen someone poked in the eye or kicked in the groin by accident during normal training, on many occasions, they continue saying, ÒI will be alrightÓ.
<snip>
Where do we learn this if not in a competitive arena, self-defence training provides the skills, but if you are not sure that you can cut the mustard what good are they to you. There is a place for both types of training especially if you are training to defend yourself rather than solely for sport.

This reminds how a friend won a major wrestling tournament in the area.

He had banged heads pretty hard early in the match, and doesn't remember anything that happened in the match. But he still won, without any real conscious processes.

Some people can put themselves in such a focused state of mind during competition that minor distractions, such as getting hit on the head, don't affect them. That was my point earlier about how competition mimics the emotional impact of a fight.

I'm glad my first encounter with a person emitting such a high volume of mental energy was on the mat, not in the street.

Peter

Barry Southam
10th June 2001, 21:18
Friends,

Even though I am totally interested in the martial art aspect of Judo and its applications....I have no problem with COMPETITION....It does have many benefits and values and as others have said: fighting under stress, adapting to various changes in your opponent's attack,not giving up attitude,etc.etc.,... My concern is that over the years I have heard others,even a co-instructor at a former school I had,tell people Judo is just a sport....Also some Judoka I know from years past have been promoted to shodan on just a few techniques and have never learned Nage No Kata, Striking techniques, Jointlocks beyond the elbow, or selfdefense application....They were promoted solely on Participation in the sporting aspect....Of course I guess it's no fault of there's since they were just following the instructor of that school.... Oh and yes I do realize sport competitors could certainly be extremely tough on the street if needed.... Probably kick my 50 yr. old BUTT...Well, maybe not all...There must be someone I could defend against adequately...New sport players must realize in my opinion the difference between fair play and sport
competition and anything goes street attack...Be able to switch from one mind set to another...

ALL I have been saying(preaching) for years is that there is something for everyone in the art of JUDO....If you don't want to compete, that's fine....If you want to feel yourself out against strangers, visit another school for friendly randori against a stranger,no problem.. People join Karate,Taekwondo and Kungfu schools without any question that it can be used for selfdefense....We need to let people know Judo is an effective method of selfdefense as well as a sport... We can help people of all ages in their various interests from rape prevention, police techniques,keeping children safe through Judo, older people learning to protect themselves, College co-eds selfdefense, and SPORT competition.... Judo is so marvelous in that our immediate response doesn't have to be to injure someone...We have the techniques and their application to go from mild to severe depending on the circumstance and our individual abilities in meeting various crisis situations.... There is something for EVERYONE...

We all study Judo....


Take Care

Barry E. Southam

rsamurai
10th June 2001, 21:57
thank you ! you were able to convey what i was trying to convey. there is nothing wrong with competition. but you can be an undefeated competitor in any martial art and still get your but kicked on the street. competition teaches a great deal of things. plus it puts you in tip top shape. haveing said that. self defense is a mind set. the techniques are different. try this go to a local karate school. ask the instructor if he would particiapate in a reasearch prodject.( karate v judo) than have one of his students throw kicks and punches at you, and you defend its a different mix. when we compete in judo we don't ever really worry about someone punching us in the face. all i am saying is lets practice drills in judo dojo that allow us to use are judo techniqes agaist them. let us not get all caught up in sport. i would like to see a judo match were submission is the win. not the throw. maybe adopt some hybrid bjj rules. we can keep it all in our judo text. no leg locks, things like that, but lets get rid of the rules concerning grips, or false attack. i hate being forced to attack. my opponet is the most off balance when he is committing to an attack. we are always trying to make judo more media friendly, all the rules we have(omitting children of course)don't seem to be working. how about lessening some of the silly ones. after all the bjjer's fight mucher harder then we do with respect to locks they don't seem to get hurt more than us. if we do all this i believe self defense and competition will merge in to one.

rsamurai
10th June 2001, 22:22
hey fellas, i went over to the karate forum since i used to teach karate before judo. and they are haveing the same disscussion as us in traditional v tourny. thread check it out.

dakotajudo
10th June 2001, 22:34
Originally posted by rsamurai

<snip>
try this go to a local karate school. ask the instructor if he would particiapate in a reasearch prodject.( karate v judo) than have one of his students throw kicks and punches at you, and you defend

I don't if this direct approach would work very well, but I have had success with individuals, making arrangements to meet outside of class and 'play'.

With respect to Barry Southam's comment about people making the assumption that judo is 'just a sport', I once had a ninjutsu student make the same comment when I invited him to practice.

I let that get the better of me, so when a different student from the same club did come to practice, I worked him over pretty good (more than I do most beginners) with just 'sport' techniques.

Peter

Simon Ford-Powell
10th June 2001, 23:03
Mmmm. I have competied in mixed art competitions with Judoka and Karateka and on the whole Judoka have charged in and won. Jiu Jitsuka ( those who have done a bit of each it has to be said) have done very well, because of their knowledge of the different ranges, especially if they have fought in them before

Don Cunningham
11th June 2001, 00:23
I used to have a judo club which met at a commercial karate dojo. The karate teacher showed me a lot about the business side of running a dojo. I wasn't out to make a profit, but his advice helped us to retain students and pay our share of the rent, etc.

Whenever a karate student went up against a competitive judoka, it was sure the judoka would win. The karate guys were good a punching and kicking, but they just didn't have the aerobic conditioning to go full out on the mat. On the other hand, it was sometimes tough to get through their punches, etc., but once we got a grip, it was pretty much over.

My question, though, is self-defense that big an issue? I now enjoy learning more of the techniques and kata, but it is still something to do in the dojo, a study in an ancient art, not on the street. If I really needed it, I have a .38 that beats everyone, hands down, unless they have superior firepower. What's the big deal about "street effective martial arts" anyway. Unless you're a law officer or store security guard who needs to catch and arrest offenders, what the heck are you so worried about that you would need judo for self-defense in this era?

dakotajudo
11th June 2001, 01:10
Originally posted by Don Cunningham

My question, though, is self-defense that big an issue? I now enjoy learning more of the techniques and kata, but it is still something to do in the dojo, a study in an ancient art, not on the street. If I really needed it, I have a .38 that beats everyone, hands down, unless they have superior firepower. What's the big deal about "street effective martial arts" anyway. Unless you're a law officer or store security guard who needs to catch and arrest offenders, what the heck are you so worried about that you would need judo for self-defense in this era?

I've only been in a couple altercations where there was a threat of physical violence, but one comes to mind where knowing judo helped.

It was at closing time at a local bar, and as people were leaving one larger good-ol'-boy started up with a smaller good-ol'-boy about something that was said. I got in between the two of them and helped break them up.

I had 'hold of the bigger one, and he looked me right in the eye and said he was going to kick my ass. I didn't really do anything, but I could just see the anger and aggression drain out of his face.

I didn't realize until later that I had got my favorite judo grip sometime during the tussle, so I was pretty relaxed. I think that being reasonably comfortable in that situation (I had certainly been more scared during judo competitions) helped defuse the situation without violence.

In the part of the country I live in that's a much more typical self-defense situation than one that would require a gun. I've never had someone pull a gun on me, and I hope I never will, but there have been people more than willing to threaten me with physical violence.

Peter

rsamurai
11th June 2001, 03:31
i guess my emphasis is just differesnt. i was a bouncer in a bar. and i also train bouncers and provide security at rave partys. competition means nothing to me. i used to be competitor on the a.o.k karate circuit. that was alright. but when i got my butt kicked by a traditional shotokan brown belt. i was a shodan. that is when i found out all the fancy competion moves meant nothing. i was beat by a straight front kick to the groin when my leg was in the air doing a hook kick.( groin contact wasn't allowed so i kicked like i trained)

when i now study a martial art it is to conect me with a link to the past. when men fought with their hands. not guns. don't get me wrong i am a shooter. i have two exotic weapons.

but mt problem lies with the judo competition RULES. competition is not fighting. when i fight i want to make sure it works. as far as judo v karate. it depends on the fighters not the art. i was at a seminar where an judo instructor was trying to prove all fights go to the ground. he asked for puncher kicker types. i was voulentered by my jujutsu instructor. the judo instrucctor pit us agianst each other. he than said go, the judoka came in for a grip, i kicked him in the groin. he fell down, they all laughed. the judo instructor than said no punches to the head or kickes to the groin. who do you think won? the judo guy.the rules were stacked against me.it is the rules that hold any martial art back. we have to have them so we don't get hurt but they should at least resemble a real fight. next time in class when you are doing randori throw some punches in the mix. they sell grappling gloves. see how much more difficult it is to get a grip now. now we are getting close to self defense. i really believe with all my heart if we relax some of the rules in competition judo the art will grow faster, more people will watch it and it will be more effective in the self defense arena. self defense judo and competion judo would be just one art instead of two.

MarkF
11th June 2001, 08:26
Richard,
You are giving an opinion of judo competition while discussing your lack of knowing how to fight with-in the rules of a karate tournament.

First, Judo and karatedo are as combative as boxing. Boxers learn to fight within the scope of rules, some can take the punishment and some can't. Some would rather take three or four punches to land one of their own, and others are called "dancers" because they don't like to get hit.

I think you are comparing apples and oranges, tournament-wise, anyway.
***

While it's true judo tournaments are heavily rule-laden today in the larger national and international competition, it says nothing concerning how effective judo would be as a martial art, or what I simply call "judo."

I've cross-trained with karateka and on both sides there are glaring holes and weaknesses. If it must be practical in all ways, there would be much less participation than there is today. While it's true the crowd likes a bit of blood and gore, that is the same as giving a boxing match to the head-hunter on points as the other fighter was continually pummling the other with body shots. My bet is that the body puncher has done the most damage. Judges like the headhunters, and in judo, the judges like those in constant action. What this does do, is cause a true lack of action, as one doesn't have to have a "a technique has happened (waza-ari)" call or Ippon.

I have a lot of problems with the rules, and I am a local state ref here.

But as in any, and I mean any arranged fight, there are rules. Someone has to lose, so a rule is put in which says "one thing must cause the other." When someone has enough, a halt is called, there are usually breaks, even in the parking lot in back of the pub, as SOME things are just not fair, even in a fight "with no rules."

So in a judo tournament, rules are laid down, and everything (usually) available in a good session of fully-resistant randori is used to their fullest extent. Atemi (or kata ate=kicks) usually are not allowed because the winner is/should not the most important thing. One person on e-budo, in a private message, said that Oyama Mas. called the fighting room "imparting wisdom." Not all atemi is banned, however, in a judo tournament, as atemi is not just hitting and kicking. Throwing someone through the floor, harder so as to cause damage is also atemi. It is also defined as "crashing in."

Real throws, real pins, and real elbow joint locks (there is some discussion on whether ude garami is manipulating the shoulder joint, but that's a different thread) are used, some able to counter that and score, and most do have a "bag of tricks" which may or may not be against the rules.
****

But just as in judo, you must learn to fight within the rules, as the first thing one learns before his first tournament (or should, anyway) what is considered good waza and what is not, for that tournament.

Traditional karate teaches that kicks above the waist, or those which take too much time are useless. When I crosstrained, the groin was almost always open, at least with some. As in judo, too, some throws are just not effective most of the time, and turning your back to do a throw in which your back is to your opponent had better be on the good side, as a counter to it, or other types of technique will get you killed (not really, but the guy in the bar could). In other words, good kuzushi is of primary importance whether in shiai or in the parking lot. Losing in a tournament certainly is not as bad as losing "a real fight" but it is good practice, as is experience in winning. Both make you better.
****

And Don's reasons for doing judo/MA are as valid as anyone else's. I've known him for a while, and he has said that from day one.
****

So while I agree with you if you mean there are too many rules, or at least too many nonsensical ones, I agree. To me, if a competitor gets one warning for not being willing to engage, the second time he is out. We all want fighters out there, but with passivity penalties, where are the "counter punchers?" It wasn't unheard of, for a defensive, counter fighter to wait on his opponent, but when you wait, and even when the opportunity is there, and there is no action, then a warning is appropriate. Is this a bad rule? I don't think so, I simply disagree on the penalties for such and the amount of time one has for committing to the fight.

All budo, koryu through the newest gendai budo, had competition, as that is why they appear so similar to the untrained eye. One lost, and brought back the technique to his ryu as it was effective and learned from it.

All the crying over "just a sport" doesn't make sense. All those bugei deemed to be sporting are the ones involved most closely to the practical aspect of the art, and those which are done in kata only, are denying the history of the ryu.

You mean there wasn't any competition in kyujutsu, the art of the bow?

When you get down to it, it is all judo. There was an article in which a writer of budo said this very thing when the skin is pulled back and the foundation is all that is left, "The judo comes out (a paraphrase from a longer statement with the same outcome)."

I could have written this with karate substituted as the subject art and it still would have been the same outcome, but I just don't know enough about the subject. If you cross train, and the judoka gets the better of you because he kicked first to the groin, that doesn't mean judo won, it means he found an opening. He was the better fighter since no rule was set forth.

The suggestion is that most strikers learn some judo, and judoka learn more striking. I'm trying to do that now when time permits, as cross training at the age of twenty (some thirty years ago), is a lot different than actually learning some waza which I may be able to use today.

If you really give me a problem, I promise to give you everything I've got. But it had better be in thirty seconds or less 'cause that is just about what I've got left.;)

Mark

BTW: Don, as to your puny thirty-eight, my SA longcolt .45 will put a much bigger whole in you, and if that isn't enough, a Thompson Repeater will put both to shame. Glad to see you back.:wave:

Don Cunningham
11th June 2001, 13:56
I'm not suggesting that self-defense training in judo or any other martial art is not valid, it just seems rather dubious to me and I was curious why others are that interested. I also agree that karate and other striking arts are very efficient, but in my personal experience, I've found most are not training for physical endurance and focusing on techniques. When on the mat, it's the one in the best physical conditioning that will win.

Personally, I would train in gymnastics if I wanted to be prepared for a physical confrontation. Have you seen the conditioning of those guys on the hanging ring things or the women who do parallel bars?

Where I live, a physical confrontation with any of the gang bangers would most likely result in facing a 9mm in the hands of some teenager. No amount of martial arts training is going to help after the weapons come out, although awareness and philosophical experience may help prevent it from happening in the first place. Unless you're a bouncer (security guard) or policeman, why would anyone want to get physical with someone like that?

Mark: I used to be in favor of automatics until my Walther 380 jammed when I most needed it. :eek: After re-reading some of posts in this thread, it appears I've rambled a bit more than I intended. I have been taking some pain medication. My only excuse is that it seemed to make more sense when I wrote some of the previous stuff than it does now that I am a bit more lucid. I think my points are still valid, just not too clear. :look:

rsamurai
11th June 2001, 14:14
am not trying to say is judo effective in a real fight. or competition is bad. it is all the rules in competition. in my opinion ,competition judo has been so far removed from fighting that it dosn't even remotely resemble fighting. bjj is closer to fighting than judo. id like to see judo rules closer to sport jujutsu rules. and i am not sure. but it seems every time i post i am anti competition. this is not true. all the dojo's i have been to all stress competition. self defense isn't even taught. all an saying is teach selfdefense along with competition. self defense tactics are different than competition. karate sparing is different than self defense. but every karate school i have been to all teach self defense along side competition. just because you are good at competition that dosen't mean you know self defense. the mind set is different. the techniques are different. and you are correct never give your back to an attacker unless you have incapacited him first. i mostly use ostogari.

btw. my mac10, and uzei model b pumps out more rounds than your .45 and the are cooler!
lol

MarkF
12th June 2001, 10:05
Richard,
Since I obviously was not clear enough in my post, just what "judo rules" don't you like? You refer to "sport" this, and "rules" that, but you are not specific enough to simply state in effect "judo rules make judo bad." What specifically in the rules makes judo so lacking?

Don is correct, SD is an unnecessary component of learning martial arts. The best you'll ever get is a slight advantage, no matter whether SD is stressed or not. The Kodokan Goshin jutsu system is made for defense against modern weapons or empty-handed attacks and kime no kata is specifically a SD kata, thought it is more likely to be practiced for the reasons Don states. The koshigi no kata is also self-defense, but meant originally to be done while wearing armor.

It's there, what is the need to specifically call it self-defense?

If it is not there, why do people feel the need to include judo in their studies who have all ready put in ten or more years into koryu or anything else?

Ippon called, the match is over. Why? Because it is a symbolic victory over the attacker, in this case uke, and in the real world, I don't see many getting up who are thrown through the concrete, but should that even be a consideration?

There is nothing wrong in judo the sport. BJJ I won't discuss because it is not a Japanese martial art. It doesn't represent anything in Japan, and finally, the Gracies have a copyright on their jiujitsu. All grappling tournaments have rules, so again, what is the specific rule or rules you do not like?

Judo is not just randori. It has kata, kata which may be practiced, and striking techniques, kicks, etc., which are only practiced in kata. Since you do not like sparring, I assume you do like to practice kata. If it is a weapons system, there is defense of the sword, stick (jo), knife, and gun.

Well, life is filled with rules, and though I don't like the newer rules of the IJF, it isn't something I have to follow, either. Go to the IJF website (http://www.ijf.org) and it is pretty much up front in its statement that their rules are only recommended, no one has to follow them.

So again, I ask, what is the "judo rule" you don't like, why, and how do they make it any worse, or better?

Judo is full contact. What more do you want?

Disclaimer: I don't like most of the rules instituted since 1988, including weight classes, or at least those which are so close as to take the principle of judo out of the shiai. I'd rather do judo as it was when I began training thirty-eight years ago. Still, the fact is that judo, karatedo, and other competition are impossible without some kind of rule of fair play. Self-defense has no stake in tournament play because of the level of self-defense against another of approximate equal skill is obvious. Still, it IS there and it IS taught.
*****

That said, I still would like to know what it is specifically in the rules of judo competition which could improve, aside from my disclaimer which would improve the quality of shiai. Too many rules? Certainly. No rules? Chaos. Even with all the updated rules of shiai, there are injuries which are permanent, some which are not, and all because judo is a combative sport, similar to boxing and freestyle wrestling, and at the same time, is meant to do so in a relatively safe manner, so as to be able to train every day if one so chooses. This is simply keeping up with a changing world.

And again, there IS nothing wrong with studying a martial art, as it was originally planned, even without the self-defense seemingly so necessary. Ask the koryu people if the bokken or sword they hold is practical today. OK, well, sticks are a modern tool of fighting, so I'll just leave it at the swords.

Still, when someone complains about "watered down" judo, "judo is not the same since it was included in the Olympic Games of 1964 (not really true, but that is just a formality), and my favorite "judo is just martial sport." The problem is not in the statements themselves, but it simply is avoided instead of really stating what the problem is.

The really funny thing is, that when I first started training, the lessons were on kyusho. I haven't forgotten that, either. And, oh yes, this was judo.

Mark

rsamurai
12th June 2001, 14:49
i love sparring, i don't know why you think i don't. actualy i dislike kata, because it is so unrealistic. the goshin jutsu kata needs to be modified in order to be effective. espically the gun defense. 3lb trggerpull and the first two techniques will get you shot.no one throws an uppercut like that, and you don't hold a jo that way.but it does teach you concepts. but the rules of judo i dislike are the ones that seem to take judo the furtheest away from fighting. they are the ones concering grips, false attack, forceing me to be the aggressor, when i rather have you commit to the attack, than your are off balance. hands in the face. or manipulating the head. and i don't understand why you can't lock some of the other joints. don't give me the safty issue. tomiki akido locks wrists, jujutsu locks everything and there are no more injurys in thoses arts than judo. the reason i study judo is to make my jujutsu better. more emphasis on throws. but in competition i do understand you have to have rules. but my god why so many. now i can't comment about your dojo, but all the ones i have been to don't even teach atemi or sd. if this is part of judo why isn't it taught. just because you can win a shiai dosn't mean you know how to fight in real life. yes you have an edge but if the other guy knows an art also? most judoka i have met, unless they cross train in aother art, can't even punch.

if judo is the only art you ever studied than it is hard to explain some of my frustrations. but in 22 years of martial arts with black belts in point karate, shotokan, kempo and jujutsu and as of 3 weeks ago judo i believe i have the experience to see some of the downfalls in thoses arts. this year a the houston open (my dojo is one of the sponsers) we will have one mat for a grappling tournament, were theules of shiai will be changed. lets see if this is sucessful. it should be more exciting to watch and will allow the players to showcase more of their skills.

Stephenjudoka
12th June 2001, 21:46
I have many books on Judo, some are about Judo self defence and some are about Judo competition.
In my opinion it is all basically the same.
Obviously competition Judo has rules (Mainly for safety but also to make it more watchable) Judo for self defence does not have rules (You can kick,punch etc) however the end result is the same - You throw your opponent/attacker to the ground and they are finished off.

What I do think you learn from studing Judo as a sport or pastime is:-
You learn how people's bodies move, you learn good balance, you learn to watch for attack clues, you learn how to bend or lock an arm and finally it makes you fit and fast for any encounter whether it be sport or an attack.

Judo on its own is not the best self defence but it is a good place to start.

Stephen Sweetlove
The older I get the better I was.

dakotajudo
12th June 2001, 22:35
Originally posted by Stephenjudoka

<snip>

What I do think you learn from studing Judo as a sport or pastime is:-
You learn how people's bodies move, you learn good balance, you learn to watch for attack clues, you learn how to bend or lock an arm and finally it makes you fit and fast for any encounter whether it be sport or an attack.

<snip>


Which is precisely why there are a lot of current and former high school wrestlers that I wouldn't want to fight with. They may not have studied 'self defense', but the skills Stephen just described make them very formidable opponents.

And I have tangled with a few in judo practice.

It's not the waza that define self-defense, it's the application.

Richard, I think you limit human ability too much. Just because a person chooses to operate under the rules of competition while in a match does not imply that the person cannot discard those rules when circumstances warrant.

There have been many occasions in randori or shiai that I've made a conscious decision to not perform a specific move, because the move violates the spirit of randori. This is no different than when I've made a conscious decision not to apply a move to someone very much my junior in rank, because, as instructor I don't think it proper to pull out all my tricks when working with beginners. I try to do randori at their level.

But that certainly hasn't limited my ability to apply those same techniques when playing against a more skilled student. So I like to think I could use some of the nastier techniques, if circumstances require it.

You should have probably selected a different title for this thread, since you ask "is the emphasis on competition killing judo', while your argument seems to be that "the emphasis in competitions is killing judo" (that is, the emphasis in the rules applied to competitions).

Peter

rsamurai
13th June 2001, 00:01
Originally posted by dakotajudo



You should have probably selected a different title for this thread, since you ask "is the emphasis on competition killing judo', while your argument seems to be that "the emphasis in competitions is killing judo" (that is, the emphasis in the rules applied to competitions).

Peter

peter, it is funny that you wrote that. i was thinking about that today. you are correct. it should read," the emphasis in competitions is killing judo". when the emphasis is on competition than you train just for competition. and you will fight on the street the way you train. the rules in competition have gone to far in order to make judo more popular.my argument is to loosen some of the rules, such as the grips. that one really burns me. it should not matter how or where you grip.and some of the scoreing is difficult. on the judo-l this is a big problem for some of the old timers in the art. lol. they get confused about the scoring. if i was king of judo. my rules would be simple. grab and throw, you can lock shoulders and elbows or win by submission. maybe even give points for a reversal like wrestling. i would just let the fighters fight. no negartive judo, no false starts. put some of the "tricks" back into judo. it used to be there. let us remember the rules we have now are limiting the techniques we had before. i was reading somewhere, the rules for shiai that kano devised were much more combat oriented than now. why can't we go back to those rules. that is when judo spread like wildfire. judo has become stagnate or we wouldn't be trying to make more rules for it to become more exciting. correct?
who are we to change what a founder devised in anything. sometimes people invent things a certain way because thats the way they wanted it. its our own aragonce that tells us , no this is the way it should be. we know better than the founder. just my opinon. again i look forward to everyones post.

MarkF
13th June 2001, 09:20
Hi, Richard,
Now we are getting somewhere. As Stephen alluded to, the problem isn't judo, it is in tournament rules. If you want and need instruction in goshin jutsu or atemi, you need to ask. If the teacher can't help, find another teacher.

So the problem you find is in the major international events, or those which strictly follow those of the IJF/IOC. I have complained about that for a long time. There ARE too many rules. Still, if we rid the mat of every rule, you might want to think of NHB (sorry, they have rules, too).

But believe me, judo, with or without rules, does teach self-defense. But this is a personal matter, and not what you might think. People ask or think this question all the time: "What would you do if..." In my experience that is something you'll know when the event is over, not before. Someone wrote in a thread that he tried to stop a fight, and hadn't even realized what he had done to stop it.

This is true no matter what the fighting skill and training.

So you don't like the rules of IJF shiai, but like judo? I rest my case.

BTW: There are more injuries in judo than any other MA. I would have to dig to get the exact figures, but most injuries are in the sprain, strain categories, not to mention broken bones. Also, ude garami does manipulate the shoulder joint more than the elbow, but the point IS to work on the elbow, so it doesn't matter if one taps out from shoulder pain or elbow pain.

I would suggest, though some reading material to get a feel for why some techniques are only practiced in kata, which ones, and whether or not it carries the same importance. Don't forget, randori is actually called "Randori no kata" which included the nage no kata and gatame no kata, not to mention shime waza and kansetsuwaza.

The point is not that these kata were "removed," it was only to move into the modern world. Many koryu jujutsu participated in the Kodokan's early days.

Karate has all the probelms you say judo has. Kick at me (generic me) and I'm going to quickly crash in on you grabbing the kicking leg and sweeping the supporting leg out from under you (also banned in competition. The sweeping of any supporting leg at any time), and drop a knee on your groin, or I will kick there. This is taught and studied by many judoka, as that is the reason it is banned. Throw a back kick or punch at me and it will be the same move only standing. If I can make you miss by an inch, or take something off the punch you throw, I'm all over you and you've just lost the space you need to work. Kick me high, and you leave yourself wide open.

That said, these are only possiblities, and likely never to happen in reality, unless one is put in the position of having to defend.

Oh, and the joint locks of the classical jujutsu schools, most do not partake of randori and uke generally does what an uke is supposed to do. That doesn't make it nearly as practical, but so what? Why is it that self defense must be the *be all* and *end all* of a martial art? Like you, many do so for many different reasons, so if you haven't bought any books on judo, get Kodokan Judo by Jigoro Kano for starters. Other books can be investigated here (http://www.bstkd.com/judo.htm) . The reviews are really good and the history section on the website is just great.

On a closing note, after managing to put certain techniques into kata instead of randori, why the warning from Kano of bad budo if one were to use it outside of the dojo? Did we miss something here?:)

Anyway, no harm done. I know the rules of modern judo are not helping much, but not all changes were bad. The blue dogi was meant to make it easier to watch, mainly on television, but it had another advantage, too. It dropped the referee error rate some and that is always good. The idea of forcing the fighters to fight is based on good theory, but it actually stunted a lot of growth in judo. Some judoka refuse to even get into groundwork during matches, even when one had the advantage.

Nothing wrong with judo, and the founder saw the problems and commented on it himself, about the muscling in nage waza, and a lack of good teachers. Name something which doesn't have problems in both of these categories.:D

Mark

rsamurai
13th June 2001, 22:00
i just read on the judo-l something about a "kosen" judo shiai. what is kosen judo? from the post it look like a jujutsu shiai. but it seems to be a movement towards kosen judo. this interests me. does anyone know what it is all about?

Simon Ford-Powell
13th June 2001, 23:44
Mark,
Interesting coments. Your comments about dealing with kicks, I generally agree with, but I have to say, I've trained with many Friends who are top class Karateka and I Know I should grab the leg, charge and so on but, they've been way too fast. I've been kicked in the head before I saw the kick. The point I'm trying to make is, to do what you suggest is sound strategy, but you need to practice it thouroughly against very skilled kickers, cos it ain't easy against fast kicks!

Regards

rsamurai
14th June 2001, 00:51
simon, thanks for your post. this is what i meant about training only for shiai. i was a karateka 15 years before i was in jujutsu or judo. you have to TRAIN against punchers and kickers, just like they have to TRAIN against grapplers. when you only train for shiai you train with the rules being the parameters. this is why you need drills not kata for seld defense. at a seminar a few years back a judo instructor wanted to prove judo superiority. he wanted a puncher or kicker to volunter. my jujutsu instructor voluntered me. the judoka went in for his attack and i kicked him in the groin and droped him. when the judo sensei said no kicks to the groin or punches to the face than the judoka was able to take me to the ground. in self defense you go over the drills tha teach these ranges. but most judo sensei only teach TO the shiai. thus the question asked for the post. judo kata arejust as useless as karate kata. the kata will teach you concepts, but no one attacks like they do in kata nor can you react to some set pattern in defense. you have to know many defenses for the same attack. we practice judo throws until they are automatic. you attack us and by reflex we go into a throw with out thinking aout it. self defense is the same way. in the judo dojo we don't worry about a punch in the face or kick in the groin when we go for our grips. try to get a grip when your partner may throw a punch at your face. you fight more defensivly and that grip don't come as easily.karateka or boxers are just as good at their craft as we are at ours. if you don't think so go to a boxing gym or karate dojo. most instructors will let you spar. but remember the boxer isn't wearing a gi top. and many traditional karate don't kick above the waist. tkd does but karate don't. a thigh kick is fast and hurts like hell. and even more difficult to catch. its easy to say what we would do if a boxer, jujutsuka,karateka or tkd person will do, and another thing to actually do it. i always had this same attitude against judo people when i was a karataka but than i crossed trained and learned differently. judo is a complete art, its just not taught as one. teach self defense skills. if i said this once i will say it again. i rather have the knowlege and not need it than not have the knowlege and NEED it.

MarkF
14th June 2001, 11:11
Kosen judo is simply Kodokan judo with emphasis on ne waza. The term "kosen" is a contraction for two other words. If you do a search of "all threads" in this forum (judo), you can find the terminology from which Kosen is derived. It is in an old post, and I think Kosen is in the subject line.

Kosen goes back a long way, and is not new, but a return to ne waza, like other more classical judo, and is having somewhat of a rebirth.
****

As to catching a leg, you can move in quickly to take the power of the kick down a notch, and you don't necessarily have to catch the foot or lower leg, just the thigh. Also, one needs to fully accept that you will probably take one on the way in, but it can be smothered and you take much less than at the ma-ai most karatekas need. No, it's not easy, and I don't mean it to sound trivial, but it can and does work, and like anything, requires practice.

I cross-trained with some shorin stylists many years ago from time to time, and if anything, they are fast with punches, but a high kick is a high kick, and most traditional karate people just don't kick above waist high. You can rush the opponent, taking his power away. You also have another arm which may not be busy at the moment, and, depending on one's size, strike the face, or ribs with the elbow. O soto gari is also there, as is ouchi gari, ko soto gari, etc.

I've seen Chris Dolman, a world sambo champion, among other things, do exactly that (grabbing the leg and sweeping the supporting one) in the ring.

From what I am learning now, is mainly in the blocking. If you can block, you can also catch the leg when closing the distance. I have a student who also does goju karate, and when I can, I work on blocking, just blocking. It's amazing what you can do when you stay "soft" and can get used to what looks like a kick or punch coming straight at you, but missing by an inch. If you use the center correctly, it can be done. That's all, it CAN be done.

That said, I'm too old to keep up with anyone. I'm simply trying some new stuff I learned from Jon Bluming at a seminar. I even get explanations for it on the Internet, and that which you don't really see close up, begins to make sense.

Hey, I'm only 5'3", or sixty three inches tall (about the size of Sokaku Takeda) I'll take anything I can get.:D

Mark

rsamurai
14th June 2001, 13:21
mark,
oh i no it can be done. i am not saying no one can block or avoid punches or kicks, i am just saying you have to train for them. in my illustration tha t judoka didn't even expect a kick. his mind set was judo(no atemi wasa). he wasn't prepared. all i am saying, as judoka we should train in all the ranges of fighting. but with the focus on training to shiai most judoka only learn what can be done in a tournament. this is a disservice to all judo players. in my karate class we learned how to fight on the ground. albeit it was nothing like our newasa, but we learned. and i am glad you are cross training. its fun and you get a deeper meaning into the martial arts.

Simon Ford-Powell
14th June 2001, 19:40
Love this thread, firstly I am a Jiu Jitsu man who's done judo to 1st dan and various striking arts. It isn't the art it is the artist that matters. Each art of course has it's strengths and weaknesses. As has been said, you need knowledge of all the ranges. i have so many friends who do so many different subjects and we all speak the same language, because we all believe in the same thing. In the end theory and kata have limited aims and purposes, it is within skills learning, against excellence (of whatever kind) that you learn how to cope with the good grappler or striker.

There is no art that doesn't have these goals, the methods, however often fall short, because they limit themselves to a narrow mindset.

Thanks Mark and Rsamurai, I've enjoyed this!

Kit LeBlanc
16th June 2001, 00:27
All,

Overall, I have to agree with the modern Takeda Sokaku ( Mark F...heh heh heh) on a lot of his comments. But I think some others brought up good points as well.

I stay with newaza training (BJJ/submission grappling) and took up judo BECAUSE of the combative applications, which have been proven to me in real-life encounters on the job. Before I began regular formal training in judo I was doing osoto-gari, kuchiki-taoshi, tani-otoshi, and an ushiro goshi type throw, as well as uki-gatame (knee placed at various points on the subject face up or face down), variations on yoko-, tate- and kami-shiho gatame (head up...) , and ude garami and a kata gatame type technique all the time in real life situations. None of these requires the opponent to be wearing a gi, and ample striking opportunities are present in these techniques. Hair, particularly the long kind, is a wonderful aid to throwing and grappling techniques.

Concerning the gi, I think gi-based training does translate to real world. Most people wear clothes in day to day life (even the majority of people that get arrested, though not all...) Jackets, sweatshirts even t-shirts can be used, although I would not recommend latching onto a t-shirt in a conventional kumikata and trying to throw with it. T-shirts can be used for very effective applications of many shime-waza, we did so all the time in submission practice. The t-shirts sometimes tear, but hey, if it does just move into a different technique.

Full contact training, even within certain rules (and learning the Judo rules makes my head spin! Half the stuff I am used to doing gets me a penalty or gives the other guy a point!) goes a long way in teaching you how to overcome REAL aggression or active resistance to your techniques when your are down in the blood and the guts and the beer. Many "traditional combat bugei" proselytizers, who seem to fail to understand that they will need to adapt their training to real world application, since they are clearly not actually killing or maiming their cooperative partners in kata, also seem to fail to understand that "sport" technique can be adapted.

Personally I feel that the "sport" technique is adapted much more readily because shiai-honed skills are done against valid resistance, which is rare in kata based martial arts. I place BJJ in the same category as I would Kosen judo rules or even judo, it is really all the same thing with a different emphasis, and it all requires adapting for streetwise use, as does ANY martial arts training.

Striking techniques DO need to be practiced, and using grappling AGAINST them needs practice as well. Full contact striking, giving and receiving, is a great gut check and teaches how to make your strikes hit hard against someone who won't stand there and just let it happen. Skilled strikers are regularly beating grapplers in Mixed Martial Arts competition now because they won't let the grapplers get close, and know just enough grappling to defend and get back up if they are taken down. I work my Thai thigh kicks, my front thrust and snap kicks to the groin, and my knees, elbows and palms. I would be glad to see these methods end the fight with the tweaked out, rotted tooth, disease infested meth maggot before I ever had to get close to somebody like that and have them bleed or even sweat on me.

But for real world fighting hard throws (concrete is not like a mat), sweeps and grappling, practiced against all shapes and sizes of strong, athletic people trying to do the same to you will serve you much better than striking arts and/or kata will. People don't "spar" in real life fights, they lob knuckle bombs and clutch, grab, pull, clinch and trip. When they get you down they stomp and try to kick your head in, often with lethal results (stomps are VERY nasty. Anyone doing this to you in a self defense situation has the means and opportunity to deliver serious bodily injury or death and should be dealt with accordingly.)

Kit

MarkF
16th June 2001, 11:16
There are some older martial arts which probably should not be called same, unless humanity eats it big time and sticks, stones, and swords make a comeback.:D

Thanks for the kind words (Kit, I'll deal with you another time), but I would call what I'm doing now exactly cross-training, more like trying to survive long enough to call it a full life. I did a little Tomiki aikido when I was young, and still use some locks I learned back then (1970, 71).

If I were reallly working on this, I don't have the time. I would just like to add something practical to what I all ready know. I find learning something new at this time in life really gets the adrenalin pump working. It isn't easy, but once it feels right, it feels like the first throw for ippon when it all falls into place, and uke flies like Batman wished he could (aiki?)
***

Oh, the point is, Kit, that if you commit a felony and get penalized , the opponent does get the equivalent score (shido=koka, chui=yuko, keikoku=waza-ari). I'm not even sure why this is. If the idea is to give your opponent an advantage for the felony of which you are guilty, why bother to score both? A rhetorical question, but I have always thought "Do that again, you're outta here" works pretty well, and unless bleading or a bone is sticking out of your leg, a simple yes or no to my question of "You can't fight?" Again "you're outta here."

Keeps things moving along and can limit a tournament to one day.

But I played the tournament circuit very often early on, and when I grew too slow, once or twice a year (well, for the last year, anyway). When you begin to do shiai when you haven't healed from the prior one it's time to hang up the pajamas.

If someone can come over and tell you what you're doing will get you a chui, then there are just too many rules. Tournaments of themselves with the proper motivation can do wonders, especially through the period which is becoming monotonous in the dojo. Folks used to travel from one to another every weekend for months, then take the entire summer off. Remember kangeiko? It still is a special time of year after the long, hot summer, the difference being you don't take summer off anymore.

OK, I'll stop.

Mark

MarkF
17th June 2001, 08:58
Hi, Kit,
I was going through the nage waza you said you were doing in submission grappling, finding kuchiki taoshi interesting, as I doubt it was in the Gracie family's style, as it almost certainly wasn't in Maeda's.

This one is in the shinmeisho no waza, or new techniques and answered a specific need in judo, namely one leg tackles, again, not to be done in judo at all, even in kata (the tackle I mean). Were you also doing morote gari, a throw which is allowed and answers a certain need for a double leg tackle, but is really a shoulder technique?

Soooo, did you do these as described for judoka, or did you sweep out the supporting leg in kuchiki taoshi? And for a double leg take-down, was it just that, or more of the morote gari, with the grabbing of both legs, lifting, and using a shoulder one way or the other to direct the throw/body?

I'm still trying to grasp what it is which acts as the fulcrum, or lift in these throws to classify them. Even more troubling, is in doing the morote gari.

Funny story how morote gari got its name. A student was doing some experimenting with waza, and asked, "Sensei, so this would be morote gari?"

OK, so you had to be there.:confused:

Mark

Kit LeBlanc
17th June 2001, 16:48
MarkF

I meant I use it in dealing combative persons in arrest situations, not submission. And I do sweep the leg. Usually it becomes sort of half-kuchiki taoshi and half-osoto gari.

Entry usually occurs when I am on someone's left side and take their left arm in my hand for the ol' "yer under arrest put your hands behind your back" and he decides that's not what he wants to do. If I feel the pull away I take his back and wrap the arm in the ushiro goshi/ashi barai type takedown (again a blending of the two).

If he turns into me (which I now take as a more threatening movement), it tends to be directly into a set up for kuchiki taoshi or osoto-gari (I don't like the idea of then turning my back on a combative suspect for a hip throw) with the right arm wrapping his neck, or the r. hand pushing up and over on his chin. Gotta watch his head on this last one, though!!!

FYI I got the name for the one I do from Syd Hoare's A-Z of Judo. He lists Kotani and Mifune as his references for it.

It's nice because when the guy drops, he is in perfect position for the Kimura style ude garami. I like this one because I can kneel down over his head with my left leg ON TOP of his left arm, taking it out of the fight, or on his neck whic traps th let shoulder and thus left arm on the ground. Ude garami to cuff position.

Morote gari I learned from a wrestler, but I can only pull it off rarely, never tried in the street. I learned it pretty much as you describe, very deep shoot, get the hips under his and get the head and neck underneath his lat/shoulder area, so the chest/shoulder is in deep and the head craning upward and sticking to his lats to direct him. You are grabbing the legs but lifting more than pulling back toward you. Now I don't know if it is correct but that is what he called a double leg takedown. He likes to lift up, insert an arm through the legs for a "high crotch" in mid-air and spin you around to drop you on your head or on your back.

OOF!!!


Kit

dakotajudo
17th June 2001, 17:16
Originally posted by Kit LeBlanc

Morote gari I learned from a wrestler, but I can only pull it off rarely, never tried in the street. I learned it pretty much as you describe, very deep shoot, get the hips under his and get the head and neck underneath his lat/shoulder area, so the chest/shoulder is in deep and the head craning upward and sticking to his lats to direct him. You are grabbing the legs but lifting more than pulling back toward you. Now I don't know if it is correct but that is what he called a double leg takedown. He likes to lift up, insert an arm through the legs for a "high crotch" in mid-air and spin you around to drop you on your head or on your back.

OOF!!!

Kit

Your description sounds like a proper double leg, where you get penetration and lift the legs and hips, turning as you do, with your head on the outside of the turn for leverage. This is more like ura-nage, but taking uke to his front instead of to his back.

Morote gari, on the other hand, is more like a 'stud' double, where you put your head in the middle of the body, put a hand on the back of either knee, and push uke directly backward with your head. This is more like a gake (or guruma?) finish, while gari implies more reaping motion with the hands.

The high-crotch is more like kata-guruma, but the variation you describe sounds like te-guruma (or suki-nage as currently used).

Of course, there are a lot of 'pick-ups' from wrestling that don't correspond to any named judo throws.

Peter

Kit LeBlanc
17th June 2001, 18:05
Peter,

Thanks, I get it now. I didn't realize there was such a difference. It really does make it a different throw, then. I'm also not 'up' yet on all the differences between "gari" "gake" "guruma" etc.

The morote gari seems then a lot more like a few koryu throws I have seen where they basically pull the legs up to drop the guy. Probably makes more sense if you think about armor.

And you have given me some stuff to think about with ura nage.

Kit

dakotajudo
17th June 2001, 19:37
Originally posted by Kit LeBlanc
Peter,

Thanks, I get it now. I didn't realize there was such a difference. It really does make it a different throw, then. I'm also not 'up' yet on all the differences between "gari" "gake" "guruma" etc.
<snip>

Kit

My understanding of the difference between ko-soto-gari and ko-soto-gake is that gari focuses more on taking the leg out from underneath, and that gake involves a hook-and-lift motion, while pushing the upper body backwards.

Guruma throws involve more blocking a joint and rotating the body over that pivot point. For example, my understanding of the distinction between harai-goshi and o-guruma is that the hip and extended leg shoot into uke in harai-goshi, while in o-guruma uke is pulled over the extended leg and hip.

If you're interested this kind of thing, the book "Pick-ups" by Robert van de Walle from the Ippon Masterclass series covers variations on morote-gari, sukui-nage, uranage and kata-guruma, while "Russian judo" by Alexander Iatskevich from the same series touches on some of the sambo influences in competitive judo.

Peter

Ben_Holmes
18th June 2001, 06:06
Just a quick note for the "Morote Gari" crowd... I found this to be a wonderful combination off of a Seoinage. Zoom in for Seoi, and if uke resists strongly to the forward throw, spin another 180 degrees (in the same direction as the *original* spin) and whip on that Morotegari... This particular combination will hit many Judoka as a surprise, combining as it does such a classical technique with one generally considered to be more wrestling oriented.

kusanku
18th June 2001, 06:59
Just a note:I like morote gari very much.

Whether in demos, whether with other martial artists even when they say they can stop it, or in actual usage,I have never had this waza fail on me.

I remember a very cocky Aikido black belt standing on a nice thick lawn saying he could break my neck if I tried the drop on him, I said, well, show me how, and he said, okay, and I dropped him flat, ippon, no harm, nice breakfall because the arms automatically fly back and out and slap.

Never felt anything anywhere near the neck.BTW, it safer to use the shoulder than the head, it can hurt your neck to butt them in the belly.

As far as defending against karate kicks with judo, Mark and me have discussed it some, and as you Mark are doing goju ryu I recommend the mawashi uke or toraguchi as its also called, to blcok and hook the leg and the other hand whirls up as you step in and blocks the hand or arm techniques, and takedown.

Far as defending against punches, combine a palm cross block with a ninety deree tai sabaki to the outside of the arm if can, then osoto gari.
.
If you wind up on the nside with the punch and turn, drop and do ko uchi gari makikomi, they'll go down like a sack every time.Especially in that karate front stance.

If its a hooking punch use tegatana or shuto, to the elbow crease from inside,and tai otoshi or hiza guruma to drop them.

Roundhouse is asking for tegatana to wrist or forearm from inside and tsurikomi or sode tsurikomo goshi.

Uppercut calls for a downward shuto or tegatana( same thing) to elbow crease, slide shuto to outside of their arm and standing jujigatame takedown.

Front kick low calls for a sweep away as in tomoe nage defense and ko soto gari or gake from outside, or o uchi or ko uchi gari or gake from inside.Or o soto from outside depending on which foot steps when.

Front high kick is high shuto sweep and tai sabaki, ushiro dori takedown, or aikido irimi nage, or push up and back under the kick and take two steps forward fast.:-)

You will believe a man can fall on his ash.:D

Side kick, tai sabaki to outside side or simply jump two feet tothe outside of the kick, hook and either sweep standing leg or reap it, or push the kick up and away in a circle backwards and step in as you do.

High round kick.That leg is just like a big arm for tai otoshi or seioinage using the leg instead of arm, catch it buy corrsing the palm over the opposite shoulder in what is called cho uke or butterfly block in Goju ryu, now spin in for the throw and make a wish, because those legs are split wide open.

Back spin kick is just like a side kick, basket and cross the arms and catch the kick as you jump two feet sideways outside of it.Sweep and dump.

Hook kick is very deceptive.use both arms up to block one, hit a calf and thigh on both sides of the knee moving in as you do, push with bothhands in direction of butt and he'll fly away and bother you no more.:-)


Life can be fun for creative judoka.Love to see a good breakfall.:D

MarkF
18th June 2001, 09:29
I don't know if you all have read this, but it is an interesting description (and my really bad joke is based on): This is from the Kodokan_website (http://www.kodokan.org) and is a really good discussion of morote gari and "kuchikidaoshi."

(Type 2)

Tori uses both hands to hold Uke's one leg to execute Morote-gari.



While grappling with each other, Tori dashes into Uke's abdomen, drops his hip to take a right defensive posture. Then, he holds Uke's right leg and puts right shoulder against Uke's abdomen. He, then, rolls over Uke's body and throws down.

This technique is not the regular Morote-gari, but Kodokan Waza Study Group Department recognizes as a Morote-gari.

When Tori uses one hand to hook Uke's leg to throw him down backward, it is categorized as a Kuchikidaoshi.

In the old Jujitsu, there were some similar techniques like Morote-gari. In Fusenryu, it was called Hizaori (by Mr. Raisuke Kudo).

During Kodokan Era, people used this technique in competition. However, there was no regular name in the beginning. Generally, people called it Ashitorinage at that time.

One day (date is not known), Mr. Kyutaro Kanda, ninth degree, had demonstrated this technique in front of Professor Jigoro Kano and asked his opinion. Since this was his favorite technique, he asked Professor Kano, "Is it appropriate to call it Morote-gari? Professor Kano replied that it is a very effective technique and to name it to Kodokan's Morote-gari. Unfortunately, Professor Kano passed away in 1938 and this technique was not added to Kodokan's techniques. This story was published in Kodokan Judo magazine "Sweat and Tear" in April 1969.

In 1936, when Mr. Kanda competed in the All Japan Judo Championship, the name of the Morote-gari was already being used in describing the throws. In October 1982, Morote-gari was officially added to Kodokan techniques.




Try this Link (http://www.kodokan.org/e_waza/morotegari.html)



Kit,
I figured you did it that way, but was interested if it was a SG technique or not. Even in randori, doing it without sweeping the supporting leg is almost impossible. I mean, it IS right there, looking like a ten yard pull of taffy.:)

Mark

AWombl
28th June 2001, 16:42
No matter, what sport (or martial art) you do: as soon as you find yourself limited by rules, you are forced to do things you'd never do in self defence:

For example in judo hold downs are applied with uke lying on his back. In SD I pin my opponent on his stomach, since he can't attack any more then.

In Tae-kwon-do you don't earn points in shiai when you hit your opponents back. Which leads many Tae-kwon-doin to exposing their back to the enemy. Stupid thing, too.

On the other hand, if you want to compete it's just necessary to ensure at least some safety. Remember: Every time he went to competition, Kano bade his parents farewell. Just in case...

Wolfgang

MarkoMilitary
28th June 2001, 22:36
I am sorry because I haven't read the discussion here so I'll just jump to the point.
A few months ago I was thinking of taking a martial art.I was in a doubt: aikido or judo?
I chose aikido and haven't regreted it.You know why I have chosen it instead of judo?
Because it is a martial art not a martial sport, what judo became.
I wnted to say that judo has become more of sport than an art.:look:

Barry Southam
28th June 2001, 23:08
Friends,

Yes in my opinion over the years Judo has balanced itself more towards the sporting aspect than the martial art/selfdefense aspect.... Having said that and the fact that I have always practiced Judo as a martial art with the sporting aspect of secondary interest if at all to me......

Please allow me to say the following...

If a person wants to study Aikido or any other art that's fine
BUT.....You must realize this about the art of Judo....Whether a Judoka is interested in sport application of the throws,holds,chokes or jointlocks or martial art/selfdefense application.....WE ALL LEARN THE THROWS BASICALLY THE SAME WAY.....It's our secondary interest or application that is different...

There are some tough competitors that when needed can pound someone into the ground in a selfdefense situation...The study of Judo takes alot of hard work and it's a very effective means of selfdefense no matter what your interest is in studying it...
It's a great art when your fight ends up in close....
So please don't deny yourself the opportunity to study Judo and its wonderful benefits for all ages because the word sport is used by some schools and organizations.....Kata, striking, joinlocks beyond just the elbow might not be taught by some schools but JUdo is very effective none the less by all Judo schools when needed on the street.

Mark and others can further give examples of the diversity of JUDO....So the person who chose Aikido over Judo.....Best wishes in you study of Aikido but please don't look at Judo from a distance....It just might compliment your study of AIKIDO...


Take Care

Barry E. Southam

dakotajudo
28th June 2001, 23:38
Originally posted by MarkoMilitary

I wnted to say that judo has become more of sport than an art.

Judo hasn't changed, only what some people practice.

I've trained about equally in both judo and aikido, and I've found the randori training in judo to be the most effective part of the training, more effective than the way I practiced aikido.


Originally posted by AWombl

For example in judo hold downs are applied with uke lying on his back. In SD I pin my opponent on his stomach, since he can't attack any more then.


The judo osae-komi are suprisingly effective in SD situations - see UFC 2, Remco Parduel vs. Orlando Wiet (ushiro-gatame, finished by a few elbows to the head). Kime-no-kata also demonstrates a couple nice finishing blows from osae-komi, as well as a face-down pin.

Peter

MarkF
29th June 2001, 09:36
You go, Barry.

I remember reading a story of Prof. Kano at the Budokwai in London ( http://www.budokwan.org ) where he was invited to watch a kata demonstration. When one of the participants deviated from norm in the ju no kata, Kano said: "That is a modification of the ju no kata."

He didn't attempt to change what was, he simply identified it. Later, when discussion and demonstrating the ju no kata himself, he said "there are three forms in the ju no kata and I have been doing them for forty years, so I think I can do two of them by now (parapharsed: Exact quote is on the site)."

He made a joke in his schoolmasterish English.

There are many who teach the kata alone, as John Cornish does.

So I wouldn't add other's words to what judo is. Watch tape of Yamashita, or Koga. If you are not inspired by what you see, well, I think you will have a problem with aikido, as when you get right down to basics, judo and aikido or basically the same thing.

I road the shiai circit for nearly twenty years, and then I was about three pages into the books.

Lot's of great stuff, and Barry Southam, teaching a martial art is one I know who had forsight. He saw it before I did.:)

Mark

MarkF
29th June 2001, 10:06
Wolfgang,
Welcome to the judo forum.:wave: Rule here is to sign your posts. You can configure it in your signature box in your profile. You can set it and forget it. You may also sign each post manually, but the sig box is easier.

Thanks!

Mark

MarkoMilitary
30th June 2001, 21:50
Thanks for your answers.Barry I'm not looking at Judo from a distance.It still is a great ART.But I think, offcourse that the sporting aspect should be of secondary interest.:)

Barry Southam
30th June 2001, 22:33
Friend,


I think Judo sometimes gets a bad rap in its effectiveness as the Martial art that it is...Had I been entering tournaments like Mark and others at a young age,I'd of enjoyed that also....Sometimes instructors omit important areas of the"Total Judo" and students get a misinterpretation as to what and how effective their Judo can be when needed on the street...
Allow me to say this: I would stand shoulder to shoulder with Mark and other JUDOKA against a physical confrontation anyday....Why, because even though different schools teach differently and some are more physical and really tough in there training.....WE ALL MUST BE THROWN AND PAY OUR DUES ONE WAY OR ANOTHER OVER THE YEARS....Therefore, I know thar Mark and other Judoka have what it takes and that is why I wouldn't hesitate to stand proudly beside them...Even at my present age of 50 years old 5'5'' tall....Hey, how many guys my age are still highly excited about Judo...Maybe Mark! Ha!!

Sorry for waiving the flag sort to speak...I'm proud of all Judoka and those who take the time to help the new guys...Remember, someone helped us along the way also...


Take Care

Barry E. Southam

Barry Southam
30th June 2001, 22:42
Sorry for using the wrong word for wave in my message. Guess I was in a hurry...

Barry E. Southam

MarkF
2nd July 2001, 09:18
"Different paths up the same mountain" someone said a while back about the differences of MA.

God, Barry, not only are you almost as short as I am, but we're the same age???

Fact is truly stranger than fiction.

I'd stand next to you and give you all I've got....for about thirty seconds.

Hey, after all these years, not only are we excited about judo, but it only takes a maximum of thirty seconds (I hope anyway, coz it really is about what I've got left in the stamina department).

(Then again, I took my shots from Jon Bluming for a few days, as the rush is still there).:nin:

Mark