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TIM BURTON
10th June 2001, 15:54
Hi Everyone,
My studies include trying to understand and perfect the Koryu Dai San Kata of Shodokan Aikido ( Tomiki Style).
I was wondering if any of you out there had any thing to say about this particular Kata.
In particular its history, where did Tomiki sensei take the techniques from, was it Aikido or Aikijutsu?
What system do the Ken V Ken techniques originate from?
What thought process did Tomiki follow to arrive at the particular techniques chosen for this kata above others?
You get my drift, anything you have to say will be welcome, get tapping those keys.

eddy wolput
10th June 2001, 18:12
In an article of AikiNews n°86 Fall 1990 we can read the following:
In about 1958 we practiced mainly the unsoku, tandoku undo, yonhon no kuzushi (the original version of nanahon no kuzushi) and the jugohon no kata (basic 15). In around 1960 the junanahon no kata was divised and also the roppon no kuzushi, the dai san no kata was devised as a kata of classical techniques. During the mid 60s Ohba Sensei and others worked on the creation of the kata forms of the dai ichi to dai roku......

The techniques of the daisan and the techniques of Budo Training in Aikido, a manual for aikidopeople which appeared in the 30s are similar.

Hope this helps you a little
Eddy Wolput
www.shobukai.be

dainippon99
10th June 2001, 22:45
eddy is right, the dai san is largely the effort of ohba sensei. Its quite a kata to study, not to mention the kata i would show in demonstration, given its intense combative nature, and just looking damn cool. as to the techniques them selves, you have to understand that tomiki sensei never STUDIED aikido, but aiki budo/ jutsu. So naturally, tomiki aikido techniques are much more akin to aikijujutsu than alot of other styles.

PRehse
11th June 2001, 02:01
Who was involved in the creation of the various kata sets is an interesting question. I always heard that the Dai-ichi and Dai-ni were first attempts, the dai-san sort of a culmination and dai-yon through dai-rokku filling in the blanks.

I'll defer to Eddy on this one with a couple of comments. It was originally pointed out to me by Eddy that the waza with sword is primarily (pretty well exclusively) from Ohba Shihan. I've asked others in the know and that was not contradicted. Still if you read the two replies it sounds as if Tomiki Shihan had no input into any of these six kata sets. That is I am sure wrong.

Saturday night I was drinking at the local Isakaya (sp?) until two in the morning with Alan Higgs who has been training at Shodokan Honbu since well like forever (he arrived in Osaka the year Tomiki died). We talked about a lot of things - I think the main point is finding out where I strayed to in my absence. Depending on Eddy's expansion, he would be a very good person to ask.

I consider Eddy (who I never met) a very good authority. Over here he is known and respected.

PRehse
11th June 2001, 08:25
It would be nice to know who I'm talking to - being from Tulsa gives me a clue but if we could all sign our names I would be happier.

Tomiki considered what he did to be Aikido. The Do/Jitus designations are very Draeger-esque but in the Budo context don't really work. I have heard the argument below usually in the context of trying to dismiss Tomiki as "not real Aikido" or conversly from our own camp - trying to set us apart from what Aikikai has become. Tomiki started his association with Ueshiba M. and was teaching at Aikikai Honbu into the early 60's. He was part and parcel of the transition between Daito-ryu and Aikido.


Originally posted by dainippon99
eddy is right, the dai san is largely the effort of ohba sensei. Its quite a kata to study, not to mention the kata i would show in demonstration, given its intense combative nature, and just looking damn cool. as to the techniques them selves, you have to understand that tomiki sensei never STUDIED aikido, but aiki budo/ jutsu. So naturally, tomiki aikido techniques are much more akin to aikijujutsu than alot of other styles.

Chuck Clark
11th June 2001, 16:10
I agree with Peter, the simplistic statement that Tomiki Sensei did not practice "aikido" seems to always suggest that his practice was not as fully developed as the people who came later.

I have had hands on experience with many quality practitioners from both backgrounds and it seems to me that you'll find a great many differences in "style" within both groups. Many people who began their practice much after the name change have styles that I would qualify as aikibudo. The name, as Peter, suggests is not what determines the quality and stylistic differences in any individual's practice.

In my mind, aikibudo and aikido can be the exact same thing. There are, however, in my experience, some aikido practitioners who have no "budo" in their practice. This may be by choice. If it is, the great.

Regards,

Chad Bruttomesso
11th June 2001, 16:43
I too agree with Peter (different point though). Full names are a good idea so that we know who we are talking to (it is also the rule here on E-Budo).

Looks like quite an interesting discussion brewing here.

dainippon99
11th June 2001, 21:27
forgive me, i didnt mean to say that tomiki was not as advanced as those that came after, nor did i mean to say that since tomiki didnt study aikido, he didnt teah aikido. i only ment to illustrate the difference in technique that can be found in tomiki style aikido.

TIM BURTON
11th June 2001, 23:24
The Koryu Dai San is one of only two kata in this system that include weapons. The actual amount of techniques are very few for each section. Surely who ever created them decided that these were core techniques that should be studied. I agree that the Dai San is worth studying and is to my mind an excellent all round kata. But where did it originate from? If Oba created it what style are the sword techniques he included? What about the Jo? What about the knife taking? I could go on. Is it Aikido or Aikijutsu?

PRehse
12th June 2001, 03:05
Hi Bobby - please give my regards to your sensei. It's been a while since I corresponded with William.

Don't worry - no one was jumping down your throat for what you said. You were not the first to try and make the distinction and in some ways it is valid. It is however simplistic and in the end incorrect. The vast majority of techniques practiced within the system were learnt from Ueshiba M. Even a few individual kata that are taken from certain Koryu have a corresponding technique in the Aikido. The techniques that many people consider different from Aikido, for example the Atemi waza of the Junanhon, are direct from Ueshiba M. and were never discarded by the latter.


Originally posted by dainippon99
forgive me, i didnt mean to say that tomiki was not as advanced as those that came after, nor did i mean to say that since tomiki didnt study aikido, he didnt teah aikido. i only ment to illustrate the difference in technique that can be found in tomiki style aikido.

PRehse
12th June 2001, 05:58
I am going to post the reply Eddy had sent me quite a while ago - hopefully he wont mind. It might not answer your question completely but it does tell you where to look and also the attitude of Shodokan towards the weapons work.

Hideo Ofba studied Kendo with Tsunekichi Koga, it seems to be a 2 sword style (Nito-ryu). Later he studied naginata with Setsuko Yamada. He learned Iai from Goro Inoue a sensei of the Shimbuden dojo, he studied the Omori-ryu and Hasegawa-ryu (shoden and chuden level). Most of these things you can read in Shishida's article on Hideo Ohba, which appeared in AikiNews n°85 (summer 1990). I saw some film where Ohba was performing Iai and naginata, maybe I can find out more which schools he was studying. Of course these films were made when he was older and maybe he didn't practised on a regular basis. The sword in our koryu-no-kata is of course simplified and only is only teaching you a very basic basic level. If you don)t have a good weapon sensei it is very difficult to understand why you have to use the sword or other
weapon in a certain way. Ohba simplified the weaponwork in the koryu-n,o-kata in a way which is certainly influenced by the ideas of Tomiki.
Eddy Wolput






Originally posted by TIM BURTON
The Koryu Dai San is one of only two kata in this system that include weapons. The actual amount of techniques are very few for each section. Surely who ever created them decided that these were core techniques that should be studied. I agree that the Dai San is worth studying and is to my mind an excellent all round kata. But where did it originate from? If Oba created it what style are the sword techniques he included? What about the Jo? What about the knife taking? I could go on. Is it Aikido or Aikijutsu?

Jack B
21st June 2001, 22:32
Diane Skoss was editor of the English version of Aiki News Magazine and spent many years studying Tomiki Aikido in Japan. This post appeared on Iaido-L and I hope I'm not breaking any protocols by re-posting it here.


Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 17:26:28 -0400
From: Diane Skoss <dskoss@KORYUBOOKS.COM>
Subject: Re: comparing styles

At 03:50 PM 6/16/98 -0500, Jack B. wrote:
>I'm not sure where Tomiki got this swordwork, but it sounds like it has a
>lot of the same Itto and maybe KSR concepts.

Just for the record, the techniques in the koryu dai san no kata practiced
within the Tomiki system are based directly on the Zen Nihon Kendo Kata.
Tomiki Sensei and Ohba Sensei modified and adapted eight of these to
include in their kata. According to my teachers in Japan (several of whom
were the training dummies on whom the kata were developed) there's no
direct koryu influence. Since Itto-ryu is a heavy influence on the kendo
kata, the Tomiki kumitachi do have some similarity to Itto-ryu. (Another
little known tidbit: the "yari" techniques in the koryu dai san no kata
were actually based on techniques for use against or with a bayonet).

Hope this helps.


Cheers,

Diane Skoss
Koryu Online: http://www.koryubooks.com/koryu/koryua1.html
Koryu Bujutsu (THE BOOK): http://www.koryubooks.com/book1.html

PRehse
22nd June 2001, 01:52
For those interested if you go to http://www.shobukai.be there are translations of the Aikinews articles on both Tomiki and Ohba.

Hidden inside the Ohba article is an interesting account of Ohba attacking Ueshiba M. with full intent and Tomiki's attitude toward the style Ueshiba developed in his latter life.

The articles were of course written by Shishida who besides a JAA Shihan (one of two) is a Budo historian of note.

eddy wolput
22nd June 2001, 13:27
Hello,
During the International seminar in Osaka in 1989 when demonstrating the use of the weapons the remarks were made:
On the sword techniques, the tachi tai tachi, according to the shihan's, these techniques were adapted by Morihei Ueshiba from the Yagyu Shinkage Ryu and again adapted for our system.
Of course I don't know a lot of the Yagyu Shinkage Ryu but it is worth to investigate these remarks even if it is difficult after a lot of adaptions.
On the same seminar there was the remark :
We don't study these weapontechniques for the sake alone, but to develop our aikidotechniques.

Eddy Wolput
http://www.shobukai.be

TIM BURTON
24th June 2001, 17:31
Hi everyone,
Let me see if I am following this correctly so far. Tomiki sensei studied under Ueshiba. Although Ueshiba changed the name of his system a couple of times, the techniques remained the same and it is only in the latter years that his personal style changed.
Tomiki was one of his most promising students, who was also influenced by Kano’s judo, as a result he tried to create a Aiki system that mirrored Judo in its randori.
To preserve the Aiki techniques of Ueshiba’s teaching the Koryu Kata were created for further study. These kata were probably created by Ohba and others rather than Tomiki himself who was still concentrating on producing an Aikido system with randori.
The atemi waza of the junanahon (randori no kata) were retained by Tomiki as taught by Ueshiba. As an interesting aside I borrowed a video recently of Gozo Shioda demonstrating on film taken in the fifties and sixties. Here one can clearly see Shioda sensei applying Atemi waza above all else to multiple opponents. The kokyo type techniques seem to be applied if the atemi waza was ineffective or was avoided. The culmination of atemi waza in my opinion was Shomen Ate reduced to a single finger thrust to the hollow of the throat, but which retained all the aspects of Aiki technique.
The Koryu goshin no kata (Dai san) was probably the work of Ohba sensei. The sword v sword techniques may have come from the Yagyu shinkage ryu or the Zen nihon kendo kata, which is influenced, by the Itto Ryu School.
The “Yari” or spear techniques could actually be based on bayonet techniques. Did not Ueshiba teach the bayonet?
Also in order to keep track of this can we all label our posts Dai San Suwari waza, or Dai San Tachi waza, Tanto dori, tachi dori, Jo dori, Jo no tsukai kata, and Tachi tai tachi, if we are refering to specific sections of this kata. This will help me keep track of what you are all telling me.
Remember this is great, any information or story about this kata that you have may just fit into the bigger picture so don’t be shy.
Finally I think you have all got to agree that E-Budo is the worlds biggest Dojo.