Kodokan Goshin Jutsu

[TIM BURTON]

Hi Everyone,
My studies include trying to understand and perfect the Goshin Jutsu of Kodokan Judo.
I was wondering if any of you out there had any thing to say about these particular techniques.
In particular their history, where did the Kodokan sensei take the techniques from, was it Aikijutsu or Jujutsu?
What thought process did the Kodokan follow to arrive at these particular techniques chosen above others?
You get my drift, anything you have to say will be welcome, get tapping those keys.

[Simon Ford-Powell]

Tim, in my style of Jiu Jitsu, we study this Kata as well. I am no expert at all but having practiced Aikido as well as Judo and Jiu Jitsu, I have to say that there is a strong Aiki influence and as a consequence, SOME of the choices of technique are quite bizarre for a "self defence" kata. I believe in the mists of time I was told that Kenji Tomiki had been on the technical panel when it was devised, but I'm not certain of that. It would explain a few things though.

[TIM BURTON]

Hi Simon,
Welcome to E-budo by the way. I have researched the Kodokan Goshin Jutsu and you are quite correct in that Kenji Tomiki was one of the Kodokan sensei who greatly influenced its choice of technique.
Like the Kime no Kata its primary aim (in my opinion) is to expose Judoka to the different separated ma-ai they would encounter in certain situations, rather than the closed ma-ai they are used to operating at.

[Simon Ford-Powell]

Yes, Tim, I agree with the Ma-ai comment.

The difference between Goshin and Kimeno is quite marked, I feel.
The Goshin is quite modern and not especially good IMHO apart from the early sections which are excellent! The Kimeno is brilliant if you have also studied the Shinkenshobu Kata (the kata of true combat spirit or mind) from which it is derived. The emphasis in the Shinken is on bravery and combat - it reveals much about kKimeno.

[MarkF]

[i]
Like the Kime no Kata its primary aim (in my opinion) is to expose Judoka to the different separated ma-ai they would encounter in certain situations, rather than the closed ma-ai they are used to operating at.




Hi Tim,

Weren't you the one to question the Kodokan goshin jutsu as kata, and made the argument that it is more like a "system" instead?"

I agree with the assesment and why, if done as a strict kata, such as kime no kata, we are stuck first with a right-side only form, and that it is different in that all sorts of a justments can be made. While Kime no kata is a SD kata, as such it isn't a practical one. Goshin Jutsu could be more practical, but it has so many limits built in that it seems it was rushed out into publication instead of addressing these problems. It has limits which any machine gun could blow a hole in.:)

That said, I use it for the reasons stated, as I do the kime no kata. Funny thing is, that as one of the current official Kodokan kata, it isn't referred to as kata by the Kodokan, or at least the name is not "goshin jutsu no kata."

Even the nage no kata is a right-side only kata. I'm a lefty who found out that doing some throws from the left side were much easier to do, I had more power and speed, as well. I had all ready learned and been indocrinated in to right-sided judo, though. Still, the left side throws came in handy especially in the days when most didn't do left-sided throwing.

One of our Olympic medal winners, Jim Pedro, is an all left side judoka.

Mark

[MarkF]

BTW: I don't really think it is aiki-influenced as such, but definitely has the feel of Tomiki style, especially in takeaways, etc.

Mark

[TIM BURTON]

Hi Mark,
You will see from my posts that I was careful not to refer to the Goshin Jutsu as a kata. ;)
I still hold the view that it is a system to be practised left and right. Also if the need arises for one response to be interchanged for another, thus giving an all round ability at defence from different ranges.
My comment regarding Kime no kata was simply meant to recognise the fact that this also has aspects of a separated ma-ai.
One of the questions I am trying to unearth, (should anyone out there be able to help me), is the reasoning as to why a particular technique was included in favour of another.
Did they start with fifty techniques and reduce them before the final selection? I do not know, does anyone?

[MarkF]

Tim,
Actually, I remembered what you said and was only funnin with you, but that is something only that particular committee can definitely say one way or another. From what I gather, it may have been published because of clamoring of people who wanted a more modern system of self-defense.

But since judo had always been changing and evolving, I'm not so sure you are wrong in given number of technique scrunched into a few, or that is started with a given few, and made larger from there.

Anymore, however, is guesswork. IOW, I don't know.

Mark

[Simon Ford-Powell]

Mark,
was very interested in tour comment about the Nage no being a right handed kata. In my style of Jiu jitsu we have to perform it left and right handed, returning uke to his original point on the embusen. I actually thought that was the norm - my ignorance?

[captainkirk]

Do people really only do right side or left side only nage no kata? i have never heard of such a thing. i have only seen it practiced on both sides and this is mentioned as the proper method in the definative authority of judo "kodokan judo" by Kano.

matthew kirk

[Joshua Crison]

At the shodan test in Okayama-ken we had to preform the nage no kata, correctly 3 times, both right and left handed. past that I am over my head in this discussion, but I felt I should say that.

[pboylan]

The Kime No Kata is taken pretty much straight out of Kito Ryu. The Goshin Jutsu was developed by a Kodokan committee in the 50s (lots of stories about why, but no actual proof for any of them, so I won't spread them). The committee was lead by Kenji Tomiki, who was the first person to receive 8th dan in Aikido from Ueshiba Morihei, founder of Aikido. Tomiki had been sent to train with Ueshiba by Kano Shihan. He also studied quite a bit of the koryu jujutsu, which was widely available at the Kodokan until the dark days of the 1940s. This is the influence that resulted in the development of the Kodokan Goshijutsu.

Oh, at the time he was leading the Goshi Jutsu committee, Tomiki Shihan was 7 or 8 dan in Judo.

Peter Boylan
http://budogu.com

[PRehse]

Oh come on Peter just a few stories - please. You already know my favourite one.

When I first saw the Kime no kata I was amazed at the similarity to the beginning of Tomiki's Koryu Goshin no Kata. Just a great example of the connectivity of all these things.



Originally posted by pboylan
The Kime No Kata is taken pretty much straight out of Kito Ryu. The Goshin Jutsu was developed by a Kodokan committee in the 50s (lots of stories about why, but no actual proof for any of them, so I won't spread them). The committee was lead by Kenji Tomiki,

[MarkF]

Originally posted by PRehse
Oh come on Peter just a few stories - please. You already know my favourite one.

When I first saw the Kime no kata I was amazed at the similarity to the beginning of Tomiki's Koryu Goshin no Kata. Just a great example of the connectivity of all these things.


The main difference between the two kata is two-fold. Goshin Jutsu is a self-defense systme while kime no kata is a study in attack and defense.


This kata, also known as shinken shobu no kata, is the one kata focused on combat. The idori isn't all that practical, but since when does good technique have to be practical?

While there are a couple of similarities in Kodokan Goshin Jutsu (the word "kata" was left off, perhaps because this one is a modern day defense system, and not really a kata?)

Tomiki was on the committee of those who put this kata together with Tomiki's aikido kata for similar reasons, modern day self-defense.

One thing which is a little head scratcher is the penchant for saying "Kano sent Tomiki," etc. I think that which made Tomiki sensei special is what led him to join Ueshiba. He never really left the Kodokan, and his final grade in such is a bit of a mystery today. I had thought he was a nanadan, but that comes from his book. So his grade at the time of the publishing of the Kodokan Goshin jutsu system comes pretty close (1958 edition of Kodokan Judo).

Mark

[pboylan]

MarkF wrote:
**********************
The main difference between the two kata is two-fold. Goshin Jutsu is a self-defense systme while kime no kata is a study in attack and defense.
**********************

Actually Mark, Peter Rhese said the "Koryu Goshin Jutsu no Kata" which is one of the fundamental kata of Shodokan Aikido (the branch of Aikido founded by Tomiki Shihan). The Kodokan Goshijutsu and the Shodokan Koryu Goshin Jutsu No Kata do have a lot of similarities.

I would also argue that if practiced as living kata, the Kime No Kata is an excellent self-defense kata. That means that you play with all the potential variations in attack angles types that are held within the fundamental patterns of the kata. If, on the other hand, the kata is practiced in the artificially slow and stultifying manner used for kata competition, then the kata isn't terribly useful.

Peter Boylan
http://budogu.com

[Simon Ford-Powell]

Not wishing to be picky with the above posters, but two points.

1. I really don't think the Kimeno is "an excellent self defence kata". As a jiu jitsuka I would probably pick dozens of better defences to the ones in the kata (e.g the defence to the kick!) . As a study in timing, focus, precision, angles and so on - I would say it is an excellent kata.

2. sorry to correct you Mark, but it is definately not the same as the Shinken shobu, although many techniques are very similar and some identical, the Shinken has additional techniques, different finishes and fine points in other techniques (additional strikes and the like) and some of the attacks are the same, but with different responses, would be happy to send you a list, if it was of any interest to you.

[pboylan]

Hi Simon,

The reaon I call it an excellent self-defence kata is because it so good at teaching timing, focus, distancing and angles. The odds of a real conflict happening just like they do in ANY kata are infintismal. What is important is a mastery of the universially applicable fundamentals of timing, focus, distancing, angles, etc.

Peter Boylan
Mugendo Budogu LLC
http://budogu.com

[Simon Ford-Powell]

Gotta agree with all of that, Peter:)

[MarkF]

Hi,
Let me straighten out a bad description of kata, especially the nage no kata being done on only one side. While kime no kata is, nage no kata is, of course done on both sides. My mistake for not putting the full meaning into my meaning.

What I meant, was that traditionally, those throws, as in all nage waza have been taught "traditionally" as one-sided technique. My definition of traditional would be, for example, the dojo which centers on contest judo, and how certain throws in the nage no kata are taught right side only, with left side throws being taught to be used for reverses, counters, or surprise throws. Of course, some leftys, such as Jim Pedro, do the opposite, but aske any competitor and s/he will have a preference.

That was and is how it is. Obviously, most here do practice these kata both sides, even those which are only performed right sided.

My opinion on goshin jutsu is one that this was rushed out to publication as "more sensible" self-defense, combative or no, and a system which can work more sensibly.

I have tapes of all kata, except for go no kata, and there is a predisposition to the right side, and even in the Kodokan goshin jutsu, it is difficult for a right-hander to learn it from the opposite side.

The kime no kata is not the oldest of kata but it is close. The tanto forms against, for example are pretty much as likely as a gun takeaway, or parring the arm out and doing an arm lock of some kind. Done from seiza or the hiza allows for little movement, although those who do kata as kata, e.g., John Cornish, make much more of it.

Mark

These days traditional is contest form, and while not bad if you make it to the top (only one top, right?), it isn't kata. I came up during a time of right side technique, and did not even begin to learn the nage no kata on the left side until my first teacher close his dojo after seven years, give or take.

That said all waza contained in the katame no waza, kime no kata, and Kodokan goshin jutsu I do pretty much as most of you, switching during attack drills, while still keeping the contest side alive, as shiai here is "back to basics." No money and no time is reason enough to call a match, with three basic possible scores, Ippon, waza-ari, waza-ari awasete (pronounced "wash day") Ippon, and osaikomi, yame, matte, sonomama, and soramade. There simply is no time, and using the scoring system of the IJF only lengthens a tournament to time we don't have, not to mention money.

After thirty-eight years, I can interpret anything, anyway I want, at least at my age, and stuff.:D

Here is a little something, a transcription of a meeting/phone call "from John Cornish." As he considered the nage no kata as Ninety hard falls doing the complete nage three times. Obviously, he means both sides:

Mark

[TIM BURTON]

Hi Simon,
I, like Mark, am under the impression that the term Shinken Shobu is a generic term for all kata intended to demonstrate the principles and techniques of “real sword” or “actual combat”.
If Kime no kata was created mainly from the teachings of the Kito Ryu, then is the Shinken Shobu no kata to which you refer a product of the Kito Ryu school?
You offered a list, I would really like you to post it and maybe expand a little on the origins and ethos of this particular kata. I have more than a passing interest in the histories of kata and would find it valuable. Also are there any books or references you can recommend for further reading on this subject.

[MarkF]

Tim,
I apparently missed your post while composing mine, but you will like the attachment above which refers to a short text by Cornish, on doing the nage no kata three times. Mifune had a little to do with it.

Mark

[Simon Ford-Powell]

Tim, Happy to provide a list of the kata. I'll have to dig it out so I'll post it later. I'm no expert but I have practised it many times. I'll have to ask my Sensei about the origin. Safe to say, if you like the Kimeno but would like a little more realism - you would like the Shinken Shobu.

[Karl Kuhn]

Interesting stuff.

Mark said "One thing which is a little head scratcher is the penchant for saying "Kano sent Tomiki," and I would agree. Not trying to be a semantics cop or anything but a more accurate description would be that Kano encouraged Tomiki to investigate "traditional" or koryu arts. In 1925 on the advise of a Waseda judo buddy (Hidetaro Kubota) Tomiki payed Ueshiba a visit and stuck around to learn.

Isn't the development of the Goshin no Kata related to the Japanese national judo team getting thumped in the streets by some french hooligans on a tour?

Cheers,

Karl Kuhn

[MarkF]

Probably.

I was watching a tape the other day of all current Kodokan Kata, and the goshin Jutsu is priceless.

In the gun takeways and defense, the attacker walked toward his victim and I swear he said "stickema upa." I know it sounded funny to someone because there was laughter, seemingly coming from the gaijin portion of the audience.

Actually, it is a really good performance, as were the ju no kata and kime no kata in particular.

So your reason is probably right up there.


Mark

PS: The Kodokan GJ was developed and published in a hurry, though.

[Simon Ford-Powell]

Tim, given the length of this, I'll do this in two parts - first the list of the Shinken shobuno kata. Later if you're still interested, I'll give a bit more detail on the techniques that are different from the Kimeno.

IDORI
1. ryor sode tori - sode garuma
2. yoko uchi - uki otoshi
3. Ganmen tsuki - ude hishigi shihonage
4. Ryote dori - (as per Kimeno) except there is a palm-heel strike to the face
5. Tsukkake - (as per Kimeno)
6. Suriage - (as per Kimeno)
7. Yoko Uchi - (as per Kimeno)
8. Ushiro dori (Kakae dori) - (as per Kimeno + a strike lock and nerve point finish)
9. Tsukkomi - (as per Kimeno, except the uke attacks from a standing position whilst walking)
10. Kiri komi - (as per Kimeno)
11. Yoko Tsuki - Gedan barai, Kote gaeshi, Oni kudaki and nerve point attack to the neck using hilt of dagger.

TACHI
12. Ryote dori - (as per Kimeno, except the kick is to the knee)
13. Sode tori - (as per Kimeno except finish is finish has hand sword to solar plexus and arm lock across shin)
14. Tsukkake - but with 2 steps- (as per Kimeno)
15. Tsukiage - (as per Kimeno but with a knee to the groin first)
16. Suriage - (as per Kimeno, but finish with ude hishige across the thigh + pressur point in neck)
17. Yoko uchi - (as per Kimeno, except after Okuri eri Jime uke attempts hair grab. Response is Kata hajime taken to the ground)
18. Mae keage - Ashi gaeshi + kick to groin
19. Ushiro dori - no steps! - morete uke, ushiro hiji ate, ude hishige kata otoshi, knife hand to throat finish
20. Tsukkomi - knife hand strike to face, Ude hijiki
21. Kiri Komi - (as per Kimeno except Fumi komi applied prior to wake gatame)
22. Nuki kake - (as per Kimeno, but stepping forward, left, right not back on the left, then as per Kimeno)
23. Yoko kiri - okuri eri jime hara gatame
24. Kiri oroshi - Ai kamai ate, kuzuri kame shiho gatame (kneeling) + nerve point in neck

My reference to the origin of this kata btw is Tenshin shinyo no Kito, happy to be corrected - hope this is of interest!!