Dakentaijutsu & Jutaijutsu

[Shiga]

Greetings fellow budoka,

I am interested in knowing how the terms "DAKENTAIJUTSU" & "JUTAIJUTSU" would translate in the english language.
I am also interested in knowing if these terms are used in Koryu bujutsu.

I have learned these terms through my training in the Takamatsu-den budo through the Bujinkan dojo.
From what I have learned Jutaijutsu is just an older term for jujutsu and that Dakentaijutsu refers to the striking arts.
However, I have a feeling that the meaning of the words goes a bit deeper.

Is there anyone who could answer these questions?

Thank you
-Jesse Duran

[Meik Skoss]

J. Duran wrote: "I am interested in knowing how the terms "dakentaijutsu" and "jutaijutsu" would translate in English. I am also interested in knowing if these terms are used in koryu bujutsu. I have learned these terms through my training in the Takamatsu-den budo through the Bujinkan dojo. From what I have learned, jutaijutsu is just an older term for jujutsu and that dakentaijutsu refers to the striking arts. However, I have a feeling that the meaning of the words goes a bit deeper."

The term "daken" means "striking with (a/the) fist" and perhaps refers to some sort of striking art. English for what you refer to as "jutaijutsu" is "flexible/pliant[-ble] body art," with the term taijutsu probably referring to some sort of grappling art, both with and without (minor) weapons. Neither of these terms are used in any of the koryu arts I've seen or personally studied, nor are they listed in any of the standard references I consulted.

The best way to check this out would be to ask Hatsumi or one of his senior students which densho these terms appear in, as well as when those densho were written. I rather suspect that they are terms coined by Hatsumi and/or one of the other multifarious MIB of recent vintage.

Hope this helps.

[Just some guy]

Just a few more things to throw out on the subject. As I understand the situation, though there is much I don't know about the Bujinkan, Jutaijutsu and DakenTaijutsu are fairly new terms that Hatsumi Changed from the older terms used by Takamasu, which was simply Jujutsu.

[WarriorAssasin]

But karate was not introduced into Japan until Late 1800's
And Jujutsu is also a newer term.

What time frame are we referring to ?

Thanks

WARRIORASSASIN
______________


Brett Sommerville

[dakotajudo]

Originally posted by Janty Chattaw
Kara-te means empty hand and is commonly reffered to striking arts. It has nothing to do with the Japanese version of Okinawan-te (karate)..

When the Okinawan arts where first introduced in Japan, they were popularly termed kara-te or "Chinese Fist". Funakoshi is credited with changing the spelling of the word, replacing 'Chinese' with 'empty' - both are pronounced 'kara'. So karate traditionally refers to a style of empty hand fighting originating in China, and only more recently was defined as empty hand. (this from Karate-do Kyohan by Funakoshi).

Japanese arts typically refer to striking methods as atemi-waza, although the term 'go' for hard has also been used.

Peter

[Shiga]

Greetings All,

So is it being said that Hatsumi Sensei basically "invented" the terms DAKENTAIJUTSU, & JUTAIJUTSU?
Do the other "Kan" organizations use these terms?
What I was really wondering was if these terms had a history outside of the Bujinkan?

I have always heard the term ATEMI WAZA used to describe the traditional striking arts as Peter pointed out. But, what terms have been used to describe the throwing & locking arts?

Look forward to reading some more interesting posts.

-Jesse Duran

[George Kohler]

Originally posted by Janty Chattaw
Takamatsu-sensei used the terms karate and jujutsu to descirbe the grappling and striking art. Hatsumi-sensei changed it so we don't get confused with karate and jujutsu based McDjo schools.

From what I heard, in multiple densho of the Bujinkan, the terms karate and jujutsu are used.

I would have to disagree with anyone saying that Hatsumi sensei changing/making up these terms.

For one, the term dakentaijutsu can also be found in Ueno Takashi sensei's school Kijin Chosui ryu Kukishinden dakentaijutsu, which was given to Ueno sensei from Takamatsu sensei.

Number two, jutaijutsu can also be found in one of the Amatsu Tatara scrolls called the Kuki Jutaijutsu Kappohen no maki, so I doubt that Hatsumi sensei ever made up these terms.

And finally, the only time that I've seen Karate being used, was when Takamatsu sensei wrote an article stating that he learned Shinden Koto ryu karate (btw, the karate meaning was Chinese hand).

[John Lindsey]

Dakentaijutsu and Jutaijutsu have both been used to describe Takagi yoshin-ryu as far back as the Edo period.