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Kit LeBlanc
17th June 2001, 18:21
Ok guys..

There is a lot of judo experience here and I hope to siphon off some of that for my own purposes!!!

In reading Harrison's Fighting Arts of Japan and The Manual of Judo, it seems like there were a lot of variations on judo methods taught in the old days, variations that were meant for street use or unfriendly bouts rather than randori or friendly competition. I love the little stories he tells about some of those fights.

Harrison gives the Japanese names for a lot of the techniques that I have seen in submission grappling and BJJ, including some of the more nasty ones which I have not seen discussed in more recent judo books.

This, along with the discussion in the competition thread got me to thinking....

What judo techniques have you used in self defense confrontations? What modifications if any were done to the techniques for street use? Any techniques that you practice more for self defense than competition? (Including kata).

Any techniques that you were taught where the instructor added "now, in self defense you should do it this way, but that's illegal in competition....?" What did he/she tell you to do?

Any competition 'tricks" you can pull off without the ref noticing that are useful in self defense?

Kit

MarkF
19th June 2001, 09:02
Originally posted by Kit LeBlanc
Any competition 'tricks" you can pull off without the ref noticing that are useful in self defense?

Kit


I've been wrestling with this, and still can't seem to answer where the bag 'o tricks incorporate self-defense. I had tricks (I think I've probably posted most) which the ref couldn't see that were probably illegal on the mat, but in self-defense?

I've only had two "events" which could be considered health threatening (in one case a knife, but letting them have the six dollars was much safer (at that time, anyway) than to fight for all that money.:D

But another incident, I was picked up by a guy with one hand around my neck, with no ground under my feet. Seems I had been confused with my cousin (I won't go into why that was bad at the time, as usually it was a compliment) and literally wasn't grabbed until I was about even with him when passing.

I have to be honest here, as I really don't know, nor did I then, what technique I used or ir it was SD, except kicking to the testicles (hey, I was hanging from this guy's hand), and I next had apparently remained standing with a hand/wrist lock (hand pointing toward the sky while hyperextending the elbow) with my foot about to stomp on his neck.

My take on situations of true self-defense, in most cases, with those who don't find themselves in a situation in their work, is that one never really knows what one will do until it is over.

To this day, I don't know what I did or how I ended it standing with that wrist/handlock and the kick to where I thought his testicles may be in regard to my position.

Which, hey, does remind me of where my foot usually was when attempting tomoe nage in shiai. Right in the family jewels. Seems they take off when they are pressured this way. I don't know why, mind you, but for me to get this throw on, that was where my foot had to be.

Perhaps, I was giving rise to an occasion?

C'mon, I just gave up the one thing I hate most and that is discussing a "personal encounter." I can't be the only one, can I?

Mark

gavinslater
19th June 2001, 13:02
Hey,

Here are some drills for osoto gari; These can be started from a natural stance or a left foot fighting stance.

1. Left groin kick (or to the knee), then put the foot down so you can go for osoto gari.
2. Left groin kick, then right palm heel to chin, then osoto gari. (Dont argue)
3. Left groin kick, left chop to the side of the head, as the head moves to the side right chop onto the collar bone. Then slide your right arm around their head as if you are hitting under their chin with your bicep. Then osoto gari.

Gav.

AST
28th June 2001, 09:57
I have a question and this thread seems appropriate.

Why is it that in Judo all joint locks are to the elbow?

I asked a judoka why there were no locks to the wrist or shoulder and the reply was " Ahhh, but that is Aikido."

Well yes and no. Both come from jujutsu and there seems to be no explanation of why the Kodokan developed a love for the elbow and little else.

AWombl
28th June 2001, 16:24
Probably because the elbow hurts first and breaks then. Most other joints hurt a lot later (and nearer to the point of breaking) than the elbow.

Wolfgang

dakotajudo
29th June 2001, 00:23
Originally posted by AST
I have a question and this thread seems appropriate.

Why is it that in Judo all joint locks are to the elbow?

I asked a judoka why there were no locks to the wrist or shoulder and the reply was " Ahhh, but that is Aikido."



Actually, ude-garami puts as much stress on the shoulder as on the elbow. Depending on how it's applied, it's vary similar to shihonage and kaiten-nage in aikido, or the Bujinkan oni-kudaki.

There are several wrist-locks in the goshin jutsu, but wrist-locks are prohibited in randori and shiai. There is also an ashi-garami in the katame-no-kata.

I would guess your judoka friend was primarily a competitor, and hadn't got to the kata.

After studying the kime-no-kata for a bit, I'm getting a better appreciation of ude-hishigi (the elbow lock). I find it to be easier to control than a wrist-lock, since I can use more of my body.

I'm still kind of partial to nikkyo (aikido), but I'd probably finish with waki-gatame instead of the classic aikido pin.

Judo and aikido may both have come from jujutsu, but they come from very different jujutsu lineages, so you really can't expect the arts to have the same emphasis. You might ask why aikido has such a love of wrist throws and breath throws, and little else.

Peter

Stephenjudoka
29th June 2001, 18:52
Kit,

I have several stories to tell but do not want to put them on the site.

However I do have a book printed in 1957 ' Defend yourself with Judo' written bt A.P.Harrington, printed by Stanley Paul Press, London.
All the diagrams and photo's show how the technique's work whilst wearing everyday clothing.
Some of the techniques from the book can be found in the Taiho Jutsu syllabus.

Stephen Sweetlove
The older I get the better I was.

MarkF
30th June 2001, 10:14
If one wishes to experience a little with the combat side, I would wear no shirt, and only short pants. With the dogi, it is so difficult not to grasp, as I found out a long time ago, that it really isn't all that helpful in that regard.

But try morote seoi nage with out a shirt on uke. It can be done and is a lot more painful than when wearing a dogi.

Obviously, hadaka jime becomes the primary choke, but there are lots of variations. kansetu waza is just that, and the dogi is rarely necessary.

The one good thing about a dojo which teaches Kano jiu jitsu as Jack Zeki did is that judo is a practical, and sometimes deadly or injurious martial art (Zeki either didn't know it, or he did, but he claimed instruction at the Kodokan). No ukemi warm ups in the class (that was done before class, if you wanted), lots of hand, wrist, finger locks, and all from the Kodokan syllabus. Not to mention actual practice of some kinds of kote gaeshi, All nage waza was practiced as if people were in street clothes.

Of course, Jack, with his ego on fire, would do a nice hane goshi, and then admire his form. Even then, it is hard not to be a simple judoka.;)

Mark

Stephenjudoka
30th June 2001, 18:39
Mark,

I think they call that wrestling ?.

Only joking.

Stephen Sweetlove:D

AST
2nd July 2001, 06:43
Thanks for the replies.

So if I understand correctly the elbow is chosen for competition due to sensitivity, and other joint locks are learnt later since it is easier to inflict serious damage with them.

Best explanation I've had, thanks.

Certainly adds greater incentive to making sure you learn your kata's.