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dakotajudo
18th June 2001, 01:10
Just got the book "Judo Techniques and Tactics", 2001 edition by Jimmy Pedro and William Durbin.

I was a little leery, given some of the discussions relating to Mr. Durbin's credentials that I've seen in this forum, and that the 'Techniques and Tactics" series has produced one of the worst aikido books in existence.

However, it is Jimmy Pedro. The book is primarily for beginners, but there are a couple techniques in the book that I haven't seen before (the British choke), and some of the techniques demonstrated appear to be Jimmy Pedro's own style (kata-guruma, for example).

However, the reason I'm bringing this here is two statements in the text, both in the same paragraph (p. 13):

"Kano himself attained the degree of 12th dan and is the only judoka to ever have received this level. A high-ranking judoka once said that randori with thee master, Jigoro Kano, was like fighting an empty jacket"

I was under the impression that Kano did not receive a dan grade, he only ranked his students.

I've heard the quote about and empty jacket, but didn't think it was in reference to Kano.

Does anyone have more information?

Peter

Don Cunningham
18th June 2001, 03:53
The "empty jacket" quote was in reference to randori with Mifune, not Kano. It doesn't surprise me, though. Durbin's scholarship is about as legitimate as his doctorate. Some of his other articles would be hilarious if they weren't taken so seriously.

MarkF
18th June 2001, 08:52
"Dr. Dustbin" has many interesting quotes. Perhaps this came from the "'Techniques and Tactics" series has produced one of the worst aikido books in existence. " But I read this on a website which publishes much of what he writes: "Ueshiba Morihei began his martial art career in 1868 at the age of fifteen."

That said, I am surprised at Jimmy for getting mixed up with Durbin, but then his career was spent in doing judo, and probably not learning much about its history.

As to what Don said, he's correct, it was Mifune, not Kano, the quote referred to. Kano never "achieved" any dan grade, and the only times I recall him donning a dogi and black belt were for photographs.

It is said that the Kodokan gave Kano the 12-dan grade posthumously, if they gave it at all, but it wouldn't surprise me as Kano was little more than a figurehead at the Kodokan from around 1930 or so.

Kano didn't claim any judo grade, except for shihan, and "vehemently" denied any grade in something he was never a student.

Mark

dakotajudo
18th June 2001, 14:55
I thought the 12th dan concept may have come from Durbin, after following a link on Budo Quackwatch (thanks, Don), where he justifies the 12th dan rank given to sokes in the Zen Kokusai Soke Remmei. (Since Japanese arts allow a person to only grade up to 2 ranks below his own, a soke must be 12 dan so he can grade to 10th).

Does anyone have a citation for the 'empty-jacket' quote. I had thought it to be about Mifune, but couldn't find a citation anywhere.

I bought the book mainly for the pictures, and for that I recommend it. I was lucky enough to be able to attend a seminar by Jimmy Pedro, and can 'see' his movement in the pictures. Just some of the grips in the pictures are skills to develop.

But I would have concerns about giving the book to a beginner, and I'm not sure how much of the text is Jimmy's and how much is Durbin's.

Durbin has dropped Dr. form his name for this book, but the blurb credits his as "one of worlds foremost authorities and historians on martial arts". Typical publishing hyperbole, I suppose.

I'm kind of curious who was the driving factor for publication of this book.

Peter

MarkF
19th June 2001, 09:35
The twelfth dan concept of Durbin's was to explain the "junidan" next to his teacher's name on the sokeship degrees. Even Durbin's imagination has holes as big as cadillacs in it.

The juichidan and junidan concept was one of, after having achieved 10-dan then you must be perfect, as anything else would make one a student again, thus a white belt. This has been around long before Durbin, and since the Kodokan has announced that it will no longer be grading anyone to 10-dan, I would say 9-dan now becomes the highest dan grade in judo. Even the two judan today, Geesink and Palmer, were graded by the IJF and not the Kodokan. Neither are close to kyudan as of the last time I looked at the list of high-ranking judoka. Geesink, I believe, is a Kodokan rokudan.

Hell, when I was twelve and starting judo, I learned to count to twelve in Japanese, as the post 10-dan rank was, at the very least, a common story in the early sixties.

Mark

Bob Steinkraus
20th June 2001, 20:25
Could you describe the "British choke"?

Regards,
Bob Steinkraus

dakotajudo
21st June 2001, 03:30
Originally posted by Bob Steinkraus
Could you describe the "British choke"?


Roughly, the choke is presented as a counter to a drop ippon seoi-nage (so tori refers to the thrower, being choked).

Taking a okuri-eri-jime grip with the right hand (the arm being attacked by tori), uke rolls over tori while hooking tori's left left with his left arm.

Uke ends up holding tori down with his left leg over tori's hips, and controlling tori's left leg, keeping his upper body shifted towards tori's legs (as opposed to behind tori's head as in most shime-waza).

It appears uke could cradle tori's left leg by gripping his own left leg.

The picture in the book looks a little like a juji-gatame body position.

Hope that wasn't too confusing.

I've looked through Kashiwazaki's "Shimewaza" and there's nothing quite like it in there.

Peter

MarkF
21st June 2001, 09:59
Is the "drop" ippon seoi nage with the right leg (in this case) thrown back, but still loading uke the same way, or is it more of a seoiotoshi?

I can imagine it with seoiotoshi, as the hand is usually right there when tori drops to his knees to do this throw. In fact, there is a MPEG somewhere on the Internet of Jason Morris doing the drop, and uke's hand is right where one would have to grab to pull this off.

What is the difference in style with Kata guruma aside for his manner of doing everything left-sided? I've seen him demonstrate this throw, and I didn't see anything particularly different about it.

This was shortly before the Sydney games in 2000. It still may be on the US judo Inc site, where he and Morris demonstrated some throws one may see, which included the kata guruma.

Interestingly, Jimmy was taken out in the final of the repechages with kata guruma.
*****

BTW: The "doctor" and PhD were removed from his book[s] when the publisher was informed of the manner in which he "received" his PhD. I believe it was from a letter from Don Cunningham which alerted the publisher?

I'm still amazed at the lengths some go to explain why one, a soke would be a junidan, and two, why his teacher claims it.

Mark

dakotajudo
21st June 2001, 15:31
Originally posted by MarkF
Is the "drop" ippon seoi nage with the right leg (in this case) thrown back, but still loading uke the same way, or is it more of a seoiotoshi?


In the book neither leg is thrown back, it's an ippon from both knees, with knees relatively close together.



What is the difference in style with Kata guruma aside for his manner of doing everything left-sided? I've seen him demonstrate this throw, and I didn't see anything particularly different about it.

This was shortly before the Sydney games in 2000. It still may be on the US judo Inc site, where he and Morris demonstrated some throws one may see, which included the kata guruma.


The book shows a deep step, past uke's right foot, with the left (opposite) foot, then finish by sitting to the left hip (as opposed to the classical step forward with the right foot and finish standing). It looks a lot like a wrestling finish.

IIRC, the kata-guruma demonstrated on the Olympic pages was entered the 'classical' way, but finished by a forward roll. Similarly, Jimmy used a forward roll to finish sode-tsuri-komi-goshi.

The forward roll finish was prohibited by the IJF shortly before the Olympic games. There was a little discussion on the Judo-L as to whether this affected Jimmy's Olympic performance, since this eliminated a couple of Jimmy's tools.

Peter

MarkF
22nd June 2001, 09:47
Hi, Peter,
I never thought about the forward roll being banned, or why. It is one of his techniques, and one of many others. It has affected uchi-mata as well...again.

If he dropped to both knees bringing uke with him, drop style, it is seoiotoshi (ippon seoiotoshi). I used that a lot. What works well is seoi nage, failing that, and grabbing the other arm for the shoulder drop.

Thanks for the explanations. While I'm not so sure it would have mattered, it does take away something, and that is enough to throw anyone off.;)

Mark