PDA

View Full Version : Jujutsu, the dream



Matthew Banks
18th June 2001, 14:12
Hi there,

When I enquire about jujutsu, all you find is some guy who has made his thing up, to make money.

I read about in the very old times how there were jujutsu competions between rival dojo's and if you won your name would go up on the dojo entrance etc.

My question is. ''Are there legtimate style of koryu jujutsu out there, which mainly practice unarmed tecniques and also practice randori. I know there is judo, but I wondered if there really is a jujutsu that so many people visualised it was in the old days.


If so what was the style?

Matt Banks

Rob
18th June 2001, 14:32
Matt

Welcome to E-budo.

There are a number of Koryu Ju Jitsu styles being taught openly in the west. My understanding is that they don't generally practice Randori but I could be wrong on that.

There isalso a much larger number of Jiu Jitsu styles that, whilst not Koryu per se, are legitimate arts with verifiable lineage and offer considerably more than "some guy who has made his thing up, to make money".

If you post your location, then it is possible that someone here could recomend a dojo.

Matthew Banks
18th June 2001, 15:01
Originally posted by Rob
Matt

Welcome to E-budo.

There are a number of Koryu Ju Jitsu styles being taught openly in the west. My understanding is that they don't generally practice Randori but I could be wrong on that.

There isalso a much larger number of Jiu Jitsu styles that, whilst not Koryu per se, are legitimate arts with verifiable lineage and offer considerably more than "some guy who has made his thing up, to make money".

If you post your location, then it is possible that someone here could recomend a dojo.

I live in devon england

Rob
18th June 2001, 15:23
Matt

The style I practice is certainly not a Koryu and as far as I'm aware we rarely go round challenging other clubs, dojo storming is soooo last century.

However there is a club in Plymouth details of which can be found under the club information, try

http://www.jitsufoundation.org/

If you have any questions or need any further information about that style please don't hesitate to contact me either on robwallis@hotmail.com or by PM on this forum.

Stevo
18th June 2001, 16:04
Hi Matt,

There are many "bona fide" ju jutsu styles around. I thought I'd start the ball rolling by mentioning the one I'm most familiar with . This is Tsutsumi Hozan Ryu, which is taught by Shihan Jan de Jong, of Perth, Western Australia.

The school doesn't have a judo or karate background. Hence it is one of the few ju jutsu schools that doesn't have a sportive component.

The style uses a variety of training methods, ranging from kata through randori, to shiai. The Tsutsumi Hozan style makes much use of an exercise called "Shinken Shobu no Kata". This translates as "to fight in the spirit of the sword", or more litterally, "kata of combat".

On a lighter note, I notice that you refered to the art as "jutsu" rather than "jitsu". In my opinion, "jutsu" is more correct, but I don't often see it spelt that way outside of Australia. In America and the UK, it's almost always referred to as "jitsu". I'm intrigued - could let me know a little about your background?

Matthew Banks
18th June 2001, 16:28
Originally posted by Stevo
Hi Matt,

There are many "bona fide" ju jutsu styles around. I thought I'd start the ball rolling by mentioning the one I'm most familiar with . This is Tsutsumi Hozan Ryu, which is taught by Shihan Jan de Jong, of Perth, Western Australia.

The school doesn't have a judo or karate background. Hence it is one of the few ju jutsu schools that doesn't have a sportive component.

The style uses a variety of training methods, ranging from kata through randori, to shiai. The Tsutsumi Hozan style makes much use of an exercise called "Shinken Shobu no Kata". This translates as "to fight in the spirit of the sword", or more litterally, "kata of combat".

On a lighter note, I notice that you refered to the art as "jutsu" rather than "jitsu". In my opinion, "jutsu" is more correct, but I don't often see it spelt that way outside of Australia. In America and the UK, it's almost always referred to as "jitsu". I'm intrigued - could let me know a little about your background?


Hi Steve,

Thanks for the reply. I refer to the art as jujutsu as it is the correct and only way of spelling jujutsu. I am an aikidoka, and I once trained with a kendoka from a japan who was the proffesor of languages at a university in japan. He told me catagorically
that any other variations from the word jujutsu were wrong. This man would know as he has researched this thing for over 10 years. He explained in depth, how the other forms were wrong.

One reason is as more and more jujutsu dojo's pop up, they try and cash in on the bjj craze. They believe spelling the art jiu-jitsu will pull in the punters. I m not attacking people who use this spelling,becasue they are likely to be people who train in just a true spirit as any other jujutsuka. There is a word portugese which goes something like 'miu minetsu' which means un armed combat or something. And when the word jujutsu came around, it got adapted to jiu jitsu by the people of brazil. Speak to yamantaka on this forum he knows the reasoning in depth, and I believe he is Brazilian.
What are your feelings?

Matt Banks

Aaron Fields
18th June 2001, 21:55
The ju-jutsu I practice is Yabe ryu-ha, we have randori, but we are not a koryu. Yabe is Meji-period ju-jutsu, and as far as we can tell is an offshoot of the Tenjin Shinyou Ryu. So we would also have some early judo connection. Good luck looking....

MarkF
19th June 2001, 10:22
Kitoryu is from where randori comes. The term *Judo* comes from an old school of kitoryu, in the 17th century, called jikishin-ryu. Even the concepts of mutual welfare came from the kito school, as does a similar life style of the judoka.

Kano was an amazing man, but he wasn't the first to use the term.

Kitoryu, certainly an "official" koryu, does indeed exist. Much of the judo nage no waza comes from this and jikishin, and the omote and ura of judo is simply called Kitoryu no kata (ko shiki no kata). Tenjin shin'yoryu certainly is one of the koryu from which comes much of judo, atemi no waza being just one.

The kime no kata of judo is also known as "shingen shobu no kata," and are probably very similar, as weapon use is still part of the judo syllabus.

Matthew, I answered your question in the judo forum in part, anyway.


Mark

Meynard Ancheta
20th June 2001, 00:17
You'd be better of studying Ba Gua Zhang. In Ba Gua there are set forms, two man drills, solo drills, and rou shou (a type of push hands) and san shou (kind of like randori) They have joint locks, throws, and striking but lack ground fighting techniques. There are many techniques that are very similar to japanese jiu jitsu. If I put a gi or a hakama on you wouldn't be able to tell the difference...well...IMHO...Ba Gua works better. :-) It is an amazing art. There are two main lineages Yin Fu and Cheng Ting Hua. From what I understand Yin Fu stylist tend to strike more and Cheng Ting Hua grappled more. Then there are variations that were influenced by Xing Yi like the Kao style. To me Ba Gua just offers more of a variety. My understanding of Yanagi Ryu Aiki Jiu Jitsu has certainly been helped by my study of Ba Gua Zhang. Try it but choose your teacher wisely. Like Jiu Jitsu, there are a lot of pretenders out there.

Stevo
20th June 2001, 15:05
Hi Matt,

Thanks for the feedback. You've satisfied my curiosity about the origin of your spelling. I too was taught that "jutsu" is more correct than "jitsu".

Personally, I think that language is a dynamic thing, and that the "correct" way of spelling is always the one that's used by the greater number of people. So I prefer "jutsu", but don't have a problem with "jitsu" either.

Obviously the quality of a school's ju jutsu is more important than the way they spell the art. However, I also feel that the way a school spells the art conveys information about their background. :D

MarkF
20th June 2001, 16:00
I think English is just fine for martial arts done in English speaking countries. However, if you are going to use the Japanese or other language[s] of the art form, one should use them, correctly. One, as an example is what we call the workout clothing we wear in the dojo. "Gi," a common expression for judogi or keikogi, is incorrect even if used in Japan, or espegially in Japan. The term for the shortened word is *dogi* or keikogi, judogi, etc. If you are going to use the language, get a beginner's guide to martial art form and use the terminolgy as close to the original as possible. Otherwise, use English. I've had many a guest from Japan in my teachers' dojo and many wish to know the terms in English since he is learning English.

In fact, there are many on the internet. Michionline is one, but is not very caught up in the modern gendai terms, but still is a pretty good glossary for overall accuracy.

Do a search. You'll find a good one to bookmark.

Mark

Jake Tarbox
21st June 2001, 04:05
Matt,

To give you my perspective:

I live in Japan, working as a translator. I also practice Hontai Yoshin Ryu jujutsu. It is a classic old style, and part of the Nippon Kobudo Kyokai. NOTE: that doesn't make it better or worse than any other style, I only add that to show is "true" kobudo.

Almost all the teachers in this organization did judo extensively when they were young. We almost never do randori in jujutsu class, because they leave that to the judo classes (which they also teach). But if any one wanted to, they were welcome to do randori during jujutsu class.

I talked to another guy from some other ryu (forget which one), and he said they do indeed practice randori in jujutsu class.

As for the spelling, I checked my dictionary. "Jutsu " comes up as a pronounciation for that character. "Jitsu" does not. And I have never heard a Japanese person pronounce that character as "jitsu." It is a common character, used frequently.

Jeff Hamacher
21st June 2001, 07:39
Originally posted by Jake Tarbox
As for the spelling, I checked my dictionary. "Jutsu " comes up as a pronounciation for that character. "Jitsu" does not. And I have never heard a Japanese person pronounce that character as "jitsu." It is a common character, used frequently.
i'm sure it's just an incorrect spelling based on a non-japanese person's incorrect understanding of the pronunciation. but then, if you've ever had to listen to some japanese speak foreign languages ...;)

later, jeff hamacher

Jake Tarbox
21st June 2001, 09:42
I know plenty of non-Japanese martial artists who are well trained in their arts and intelligent, educated people, but who can't speak Japanese worth a :toot
They mangle the heck out of Japanese pronunciation. But since they are usually my sempai, I try to keep my mouth shut.

When English words get adopted into Japanese, they get distorted just as bad.

I am more concerned about people's waza being correct than their pronunciation.

Hell, sum u' my sempai dont spek English too good, neither.

Jake Tarbox
21st June 2001, 09:54
Just for fun and edification:

?p


?p?@?@?F?@11 strokes, radical: gyougamae
On-yomi: jutsu
kun-yomi: sube, noberu, michi, waza

-----------------------------------------
Can all you world wide get text writen in Japanese characters? If I type in characters on E-budo, my computer can read them. but perhaps other systems can't read the characters, so it comes up in machine language. Let me know.

Devon Smith
21st June 2001, 11:07
Yep, the characters look fine in both posts if "Japanese Text" is enabled in the browser.

Matthew Banks
21st June 2001, 11:49
Originally posted by MarkF
I think English is just fine for martial arts done in English speaking countries. However, if you are going to use the Japanese or other language[s] of the art form, one should use them, correctly. One, as an example is what we call the workout clothing we wear in the dojo. "Gi," a common expression for judogi or keikogi, is incorrect even if used in Japan, or espegially in Japan. The term for the shortened word is *dogi* or keikogi, judogi, etc. If you are going to use the language, get a beginner's guide to martial art form and use the terminolgy as close to the original as possible. Otherwise, use English. I've had many a guest from Japan in my teachers' dojo and many wish to know the terms in English since he is learning English.

In fact, there are many on the internet. Michionline is one, but is not very caught up in the modern gendai terms, but still is a pretty good glossary for overall accuracy.

Do a search. You'll find a good one to bookmark.

Mark

Hi Jake,

How did you become a translator out there. It sounds very interesting, and something I would like to do.
I have many plans for training out in japan, as I train in freestyle wrestling also. Is it hard getting a job, as an english teacher in a school. I cant speak japanese, but I know of friends who still taught japanese for pronounciation etc. Whats lfe like out there etc etc. Tell me everything

Matt Banks

Matthew Banks
21st June 2001, 11:51
Originally posted by Matthew Banks


Hi Jake,

How did you become a translator out there. It sounds very interesting, and something I would like to do.
I have many plans for training out in japan, as I train in freestyle wrestling also. Is it hard getting a job, as an english teacher in a school. I cant speak japanese, but I know of friends who still taught japanese for pronounciation etc. Whats lfe like out there etc etc. Tell me everything

Matt Banks

correction... ''I know friends who have taught ENGLISH for pronounciation etc''

sorry

Matt Banks

Jake Tarbox
22nd June 2001, 04:13
I thought the idea of your friends teaching "Japanese" pronunciation sounded a little odd. :laugh:

Right now the economy is not too hot, and it has become hard to find jobs. I myself haven't taught English for almost a decade. I reccomend you search the web for info and resources, and keep an eye open for a recovery in the Japanese economy. English teaching is a market here, and many budoka get their start that way.

No two ways about it though. The golden days of the economic bubble are gone for good. The only ones who make it now are the ones who are willing to work seriously and pay their dues. If that is you, then you have a chance.

:nin:

Jeff Hamacher
22nd June 2001, 07:34
Originally posted by Jake Tarbox
Right now the economy is not too hot, and it has become hard to find jobs. I myself haven't taught English for almost a decade. I recommend you search the web for info and resources, and keep an eye open for a recovery in the Japanese economy. English teaching is a market here, and many budoka get their start that way.
one internet resource that came recommended by a friend is an electronic newsletter called Ohayo Sensei. the subscription price is quite reasonable, as i recall. it seemed to be a pretty comprehensive run-down of available jobs and employers, and might be one of the better ways to find out about jobs when you live outside of japan.

having said that, i've been one of the lucky ones to move from one job to the next with virtually no lag time, and it was accomplished mainly because of introduction. i first came to Japan in 1996 with the JET (Japan Exchange & Teaching) Programme, which is quite frankly the ultimate red-carpet job for a language teacher here. the application process begins in the fall; any nearby university placement center will likely get all the info you need to request an application package. the programme is not without its faults, but as far as jobs that don't require japanese language skills go, you can't do much better. (if you hold graduate or post-graduate degrees, you may be in a position to gun for a university lecturer position, which truly is the Rolls-Royce of language-teaching foreigner jobs.)

when my 3-year limit ran out with JET and i needed a break, one of the managerial staff at my workplace made a phone call to the president of a smallish language school whom he knew quite well. that contact coincided perfectly with a new position the school had created and following an interview, i was in like Flynn. that language school is responsible for "contracting out" language teachers to local public schools, which is the specific job i have now.

however, as Jake points out, things aren't all rosy over here in the foreigner job market. private sector jobs are under pressure from a crappy economy. on the other hand, the Ministry of Education is going forward with plans to start foreign language (primarily english) teaching in elementary schools. according to what my language school boss has to say, there's going to be some expansion.

i should warn you now, in much the same way that JET participants are told time and again, that everyone's experience here is different. arm yourself with as much fact as you can regarding job leads, visa requirements, living arrangements, not to mention language and culture. judging from his posts, Jake has far more japan experience than i do, and he probably has a better perspective of what's happening in "the real world", since i've mostly been hiding in public sector gigs. still, i hope this helps. please feel free to write off-board for more info.

cheers, jeff hamacher

Walker
22nd June 2001, 07:52
Hey Jake
Are you an obie from the 80s? See PM for details.

Matthew Banks
22nd June 2001, 09:31
Originally posted by Jeff Hamacher

one internet resource that came recommended by a friend is an electronic newsletter called Ohayo Sensei. the subscription price is quite reasonable, as i recall. it seemed to be a pretty comprehensive run-down of available jobs and employers, and might be one of the better ways to find out about jobs when you live outside of japan.

having said that, i've been one of the lucky ones to move from one job to the next with virtually no lag time, and it was accomplished mainly because of introduction. i first came to Japan in 1996 with the JET (Japan Exchange & Teaching) Programme, which is quite frankly the ultimate red-carpet job for a language teacher here. the application process begins in the fall; any nearby university placement center will likely get all the info you need to request an application package. the programme is not without its faults, but as far as jobs that don't require japanese language skills go, you can't do much better. (if you hold graduate or post-graduate degrees, you may be in a position to gun for a university lecturer position, which truly is the Rolls-Royce of language-teaching foreigner jobs.)

when my 3-year limit ran out with JET and i needed a break, one of the managerial staff at my workplace made a phone call to the president of a smallish language school whom he knew quite well. that contact coincided perfectly with a new position the school had created and following an interview, i was in like Flynn. that language school is responsible for "contracting out" language teachers to local public schools, which is the specific job i have now.

however, as Jake points out, things aren't all rosy over here in the foreigner job market. private sector jobs are under pressure from a crappy economy. on the other hand, the Ministry of Education is going forward with plans to start foreign language (primarily english) teaching in elementary schools. according to what my language school boss has to say, there's going to be some expansion.

i should warn you now, in much the same way that JET participants are told time and again, that everyone's experience here is different. arm yourself with as much fact as you can regarding job leads, visa requirements, living arrangements, not to mention language and culture. judging from his posts, Jake has far more japan experience than i do, and he probably has a better perspective of what's happening in "the real world", since i've mostly been hiding in public sector gigs. still, i hope this helps. please feel free to write off-board for more info.

cheers, jeff hamacher

Thankyou very much for your replies guys.

How difficult is it to get bar work out there. Does it pay anything?

If I was interested in teaching out there, who should I contact?

once again thanks for your reply

Matt Banks

29th June 2001, 08:54
Hi Matt,

I'm sure you may have noticed the other groups on this message forum. Genbukan is the name of the organization that is the main member of a body that organizes the KJJR or 'Kokusai Ju-Jutsu Renmei' (International Ju-Jutsu Organization). Ju-Jutsu (and all ko-ryu) was origionaly taught as a Sho-den, Chu-den, Oku-den etc system (i.e. no kyu-dan system, only low-mid-high etc levels). This is how things are eventualy taught in both the Genbukan and KJJR, however to fit in with modern times and also to accomodate and motivate the many people who are studying all over the world, the familiar kyu-dan system is employed for the 'syllabus' techniques such as breakfall, kamae, blocks, punches, kicks, locks etc etc. Once one shows enough profficiency one can study one of the ryu-ha as they have been taught for centuries and hopefully gain ones first shoden-menkyo or first level lisence. You will find that the shoden level techniques would 'appear to be a combination' of the kyu level techniques. So as ever the basics are important.

There are many Genbukan/KJJR dojo in the UK. Ask around on the Genbukan list or try www.genbukan.org
Don't be put off by the media image of the 'ninja' thing! Its all hype and Ninpo itself is a much more down to earth and more real than a lot of people would have you think. In fact if you go along to a Genbukan/KJJR dojo you will probably be learning both side by side.
As Ju-jutsu is based on very old ryu-ha you will probably notice very quickly how some things appear similar to aiki-jutsu, ju-do or even karate-do. At the same time as appearing similar you will notice how the ju-jutsu tends to go that bit further in as much as seamlesly combining techniques of striking/blocking with throwing and grappling. Ninpo itself would be best described as a collection of various (proven) ryu-ha that not only contain 'ju-tai-jutsu' (grappling/flexible-body-art) but also daken-tai-jutsu (striking) and kosshi/koppo-jutsu (breaking bone and striking with fingers). All this goes collectively by the name of tai-jutsu (tai = body).

You may have seen some 'jiu-jutsu' dojos that use weapons and although I am sure there are some competent and safe instructors around the globe outside of Japan, it would only be fare to say that ju-jutsu is itself an unarmed art being part of a larger group of arts that samurai would learn. Of course these other arts would include weapons but the present state of ju-jutsu around the globe is such that it is very unlikely you would be learning, for example, a short staff technique from the same or related/similar ryu-ha as the ju-jutsu itself. Of the schools that go to make up Ninpo as we know it today it is well known that Kukishinden-ryu bo-jutsu (staff) won in a match against Takagi-Yoshin-ryu bo-jutsu and so the Kukishinden-ryu bo-jutsu is taught for the Takagi-Yoshin-ryu Tai-jutsu. It should be understood that the tai-jutsu/tai-sabaki (body movement) is the same whether armed or not. If you find a shool that teaches 'extra techniques' just for one specific weopon (obviously within reason!) then however effective or practical, the chances are it has been studied and added on by the instructor.

So all you have to ask yourself now is whether you want to learn traditional old and proven ryu-ha (schools/lineage) or modern day adapted self-defense techniques. At the same time remember that the modern incarnation of 'old-schools' is a natural progression of old and proven techniques that have evolved over time through trial and error and are proven to work.

As for coming to Japan. Save up now at home. Work isn't so good these days and bar tendering will distract you in many ways that you don't want as well as take away most of your energy seeing as the hours can be like 6pm to 5am. Your best bet is to find a dojo in the UK and come out once a year for as long as you can.
Life in Japan can be about 100,000 yen per month on the out-skirts of Tokyo. As far as I know there are no special visa deals for UK people apart from that you can extend a tourist visa from 3 months to 6 months without leaving the country.

hope this all helps,

Tonkotsu Ramen

Matthew Banks
29th June 2001, 12:27
Dear Tonkotsu Ramen,

Thankyou very much for your lengthy reply. Its has helped massively.

I shall take your advice


thankyou


Matt Banks

4th July 2001, 16:58
Dear Matt Banks,

Your very welcome!
I am sure you will have success in finding a good dojo/group.

ganbatte,

Tonkotsu Ramen

Jeff Hamacher
5th July 2001, 08:58
Matt,

take a look at this article, and while your at it, take a wander around the Koryu website. it's chock-full of koryu info and really is one of the best starting points for any research on classical japanese martial arts.

http://koryu.com/library/fabian1.html

hope this helps, jeff hamacher