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Jeff Cook
22nd June 2001, 20:28
Just looking for some opinions - not going to pass judgement myself.

Elsewhere on this forum it was mentioned that an instructor who teaches at a Young Men's Christian Association has a kamidana in his YMCA dojo. For those of you who don't know, a kamidana is a religious Shinto-specific altar used to deify the gods, usually with offerings of food.

What are your feelings concerning the appropriateness of a pagan religious altar being used in a kid's Christian organization?

Is this bad budo?

Or is this a religious item that can be explained off as being used for other than religious purposes?

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

Charlie Kondek
22nd June 2001, 20:40
Man, not being a Shintoist myself, I feel I can't reply on that score.

I am a Christian, though, and I think Christians should be very tolerant of such things. There's a Catholic doctrine in particular that says Catholics should engage in an open dialogue with persons of other faiths in order to learn from them and share with them.

I bet the kamidana has been secularized, though. I'm sure a lot of Shintoist and likewise Buddhist things have. I wonder if that bugs the heck out of persons of that faith?

John Lindsey
22nd June 2001, 21:03
Jeff, do you mean mine dojo? They never had any problem with it. It is still in there and survived the flood waters. If they ever get the asbestos cleaned up by the hazmat team, they might let me back in to get it out.

Dennis_Mahon
22nd June 2001, 22:34
...because the presence of of the shrine really has no impact on the quality of the trainining the students recieve.

If the instructor was deliberately attempting to convert the students to Shinto (especially if they are minors) then I would have to say that it was inappropriate. The dojo should be a place for learning the martial arts, not a vehicle for religious or political recruitment.

Robert Carver
22nd June 2001, 22:57
Saw this thread and could not stay away from it. First, I am very sorry to hear about not only the terrible flooding in the Houston area, but particularly that your dojo was destroyed. I have no doubt that you will quickly get things back together there.

Now on to Jeff's question regarding the Kamidana and it's appropriateness in a Christian organization. As a person that has literally grown up at the YMCA and has continued a relationship to present, my answer would that it is not appropriate. Here is why.

First, although the YMCA is more and more of a "fitness club" type of environment, it is still a Christian organization. Note the name, "Young Men's Christian Association". While Charles may argue that he believes that Christians should be tolerant of such things, who are we to force tolerance upon them? Remember, it is their organization and you are in their building. We should not expect that they be more tolerant, but that we be respectful of the Christian roots and mission of this organization to not bring into it an object that has an important place within another religion.

Second, the YMCA staff may not fully understand the religious significance of a kamidana, thus the complacent response that John has received from them on the matter. However, if you think about it, we have all heard of folks that have objections to bowing for religious reasons. We are usually able to work around this, when we explain to them that bowing is a greeting, like handshaking here in the West, and a showing of mutual respect. For the most part, that takes care of the problem. However, a kamidana is a different matter. As the kamidana holds a place of honor in the dojo and is bowed to at the beginning and end of class, those same reluctant students (that you previously convinced to bow) may not respond well to bowing to a "thing" as opposed to another person. You can tell them that they are bowing to show respect for those masters that have gone before, however the problem with this is they are still bowing to a "thing" (that so happens to look suspiciously like an alter). Many will see this as no different then bowing to an idol or other graven image. So while your hosts at the Y may not have a problem with it, I do see a potential problem with it in your future. Eventually you will get a student in that (a) recognizes the kamidana for what it is (religious alter), or (b) one that is already reluctant to bow, and will strongly object to bowing to a "thing". Either way, you can expect them to raise heck with the Y. So the better plan would be to avoid the potential conflict altogether.

Jeff Cook
22nd June 2001, 23:31
Yes, John, I was referring to your dojo and your kamidana. I left your name out of it to avoid biased opinions, and to draw people into a discussion who would otherwise shy away from it if they knew you were the topic of discussion; it is your board, after all! :)

I am glad to hear that the Y does not currently have a problem with it. I am also glad to hear that it survived the flood.

Why don't they have a problem with it? Is it not a problem because they don't know what it is, or is it not a problem because you have explained that it has no religious significance? Or is it possible that they do not have a problem with it because they are religiously tolerant?

Lots of us have a kamiza in our dojos, and we would certainly be enlightened by further discussion of your kamidana situation.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

George Kohler
23rd June 2001, 01:14
Originally posted by Robert Carver
Now on to Jeff's question regarding the Kamidana and it's appropriateness in a Christian organization. As a person that has literally grown up at the YMCA and has continued a relationship to present, my answer would that it is not appropriate. Here is why.


I think the original question was, is this Bad Budo?

Robert Carver
23rd June 2001, 02:34
No George, his original question was:


"What are your feelings concerning the appropriateness of a pagan religious altar being used in a kid's Christian organization?"

I gave my opinions based on a very long association with the YMCA, and I am not trying to beat up on John. You can take my experience dealing with YMCA's if you like, or you can discard it.

In the perfect world or a private dojo, we can do just what Janty suggested, enter the dojo with an open mind and leave our personal thoughts (or preconceptions) behind. Those that cannot can leave and go elswhere.

However, the YMCA is not a perfect world and it does not work like a private dojo. It is a long established organization with its own cultural standards and values. Those standards and values happen to be Christian. I know from experience that many people join the YMCA not because it is the best place to workout, or the cheapest, but because it is an organization that from their personal convictions, shares the same standards and values. When a person takes part in a YMCA program, they expect that program to reflect those same values. Now that does not mean they expect a Christian martial arts program, but at the very least they expect a religiously neutral or one that does not conflict with their convictions. The problem with showing a student at a YMCA the door because they do not agree with bowing to a Shinto shrine, is that they will probably not go quietly. Because of their personal convictions, they will go the the Y administration and complain because they perceive the bowing to a Shinto shrine to be "anti-Christian" and therefore not reflecting the values of the organization or their expectations for a program taught at the Y.

However, in answer to the "bad budo" question, no it is NOT bad budo. However, I do think it brings up the question as to where Martial Culture can conflict with the religious values of our students or with an organization that we teach at. Because we all pretty much agree that this is not bad budo, therefore I would suggest to the moderator that this thread be moved to a more appropriate forum.

Mark Brecht
23rd June 2001, 09:19
Robert,

The YMCA`s takes and charges MONEY from the MA instructors who use their FACILITIES... Religion, especially Chrisanity has always been a business...
... and where the money comes, Tolerance can be found with the Christan leadership...
With any kind landlord/tentant relationship, I doubt a landlord has the the right to restrict or prohibit religious practices or objects.
:p Unless of course the instructors is scarificing (killing) goats, or other animals ( I think the health department might have a problem with that...).

Jason Chambers
23rd June 2001, 10:03
:nono:

Ah Ah Ahhhhh! No boys, let's behave. Mark, cynism aside, I do not think that was a fair comment...

Christianity has always been a business

Hey, I am as open-minded as they come when it comes to religion... but let's not go there... okay?

And no, I am not sticking up for Robert 'cause he's from Baton Rouge... :p I remain impartial as always. :D

Yamantaka
23rd June 2001, 11:46
Being an atheist, perhaps this isn't the thread for me...Anyway, two things trouble me :
[QUOTE]
"What are your feelings concerning the appropriateness of a PAGAN religious altar being used in a kid's Christian organization?"

[QUOTE]
"Now that does not mean they expect a Christian martial arts program, but at the very least they expect a religiously neutral or one that does not conflict with their convictions. "

When we call something PAGAN, it brings a popular connotation of "Heathen", "barbarian", "evil" to that thing. It seems to me a prejudice against other people's religions. It's like calling Palestinians or Ira members "terrorists". With that word, "we know WHO they are..."
And if we expect anyone to be "religiously neutral" and not conflictive with our convictions, how can we deny them the same thing?
Unhappily, it seems almost every religion in the world teaches prejudice and intolerance above everything else (christians possibly included, for the most part...)
Best regards

Jeff Cook
23rd June 2001, 12:16
"Pagan" is NOT a derogatory term for a non-Christian or non-Judaism religion. It is an accepted, technical term. Look it up. I do not understand why you would be troubled by that term. If the "popular connotation" is indeed as you describe, then perhaps we should educate the ignorant masses on the proper definition of the term.

As far as it being "bad budo," applying that definition is a highly individual one. What one person finds to be "bad budo" another finds to be a perfectly acceptable business practice, religious practice, or whatever. Case in point: in many aboriginal tribes, having sex with a 13-year-old is socially and legally acceptable in that country, in that context. Here of course, with our legal standards and societal morals, it is completely unacceptable.

Mark, I'm not so sure about your legal suppositions. I feel that if you investigate that further, you will find that a Christian organization does have some legal influence over what is done behind their doors. Besides, they have an obligation to shield the Christian children of Christian parents from Shinto religious practices, or devil-worshipping, for that matter.

Now, getting back to the "bad budo" question. We really cannot answer that question without more input from John. Questions remain unanswered. Were the Y folks fraudulently led to believe that the altar was not an altar? Was there a fraudulent ommission of any explanation whatsoever? Was it explained off as being a non-religious symbol but only offered as an item to further the student's cultural education? These are some questions that could shed light on the "bad budo" question.

Personally, I certainly give John the benefit of the doubt, as do most of you. Too bad that generous attitude does not permeate the "bad budo" board with other members not quite so revered as John.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

Joseph Svinth
23rd June 2001, 13:00
Actually, the YMCA was created in London during the 1840s as a Protestant Bible-reading organization for young men living alone in the city. Sports were introduced into its program during the 1880s and 1890s. The old guard complained, saying that Christianity wasn't supposed to be fun, but the reformers won the day by arguing that physical exercise and cold showers would protect urban youth from the evils of smoking, drinking, and masturbation.

From what I've seen, the incentive to join the Y is generally not its Christian values but the desire of middle-class adults to avoid the working poor who frequent comparable city and county facilities.

John Lindsey
23rd June 2001, 14:06
Just a few comments. The kamidana was used as part of our bowing in and out ceremonies, but only for the adult class. I take the time the explain to each new student that what I teach is a Japanese art and that it includes elements of shinto. I don't try and BS them by saying that it is just a formal way to acknowledge the "tradition" as some do. It is Shinto... Amatsu Tatara Shinto to be exact.

Now, the other question is if Shinto is a religion? I say that because I have met many Japanese who don't consider it such! Well, of course it is a religion to our Western standards, but it appears to exist in a "gray zone" to many Japanese...

Joseph Svinth
23rd June 2001, 14:15
Being part of the ignorant masses, I looked up "pagan" in Webster's Ninth New Collegiate.

Pagan: 1. HEATHEN. 2. One who has little or no religion and who delights in sensual pleasures and material goods: an irreligious or hedonistic person.

Heathen: 2. An uncivilized or irreligious person. [Also strange, uncivilized. See BARBAROUS.]

Barbarous: 1. Uncivilized, lacking culture or refinement: PHILISTINE.

philistine: 2. a. A crass, prosaic, often priggish individual guided by material rather than intellectual and artistic values: BABBIT. b. One uninformed in a special area of knowledge.

Babbit: A business or professional man who conforms unthinkingly to prevailing middle-class standards.

So it seems that Jeff is saying that John is crass, lacking refinement, commercially motivated, and conforming unthinkingly to prevailing standards. If true, then yes, John might be guilty of bad budo. Documentation of this is required, however. Such proof could include, but need not be limited to, proof that John claims high rank in USMAA or equivalent diploma mill, dresses in red keikogi when not working as a department store santa, or has self-awarded his college, military, and martial art experience and degrees. Note that this is still lower case bad budo. (To me, upper case Bad Budo involves actual crimes, such as embezzling funds from the organizations to which he was associated, soliciting bribes, sexually harassing or physically intimidating students and family members, etc.)

***

One of the more bizarre religious ideas I've heard involved this European religion that taught that eating the body and drinking the blood of the deceased deity brought salvation. Gads.

Robert Carver
23rd June 2001, 14:34
Mark:

Unfortunately, you are off-base with your remark, at least from my experience:

The YMCA`s takes and charges MONEY from the MA instructors who use their FACILITIES
I am almost 40 years old and I entered my very first YMCA program at the tender age of 5 (Day Camp). I have been involved with various programs in the YMCA ever since. I have taught at numerous YMCAs's and beginning in July, I start teaching at another (it's that military transfer thing moving me around). That's almost 35 years of YMCA involvement (OK, match that!) I can say without any hesitation that I HAVE NEVER PAID THE YMCA TO USE THEIR FACILITIES to teach class and I know of no other instructor that does. In fact, I have been paid or otherwise compensated by them (with free memberships, etc) for teaching. If you know someone that is being "charged" for using their facilities, then this is not the usual practice, and they should consider going elsewhere. So a "landlord/tentant relationship" is not applicable here, more of a "host/guest" relationship would be more accurate.

Joseph, you are as always an incredible source of information, but your opinion does not hold water based on my experience.


From what I've seen, the incentive to join the Y is generally not its Christian values but the desire of middle-class adults to avoid the working poor who frequent comparable city and county facilities.
Based on my experience, there are two types of folks that join the Y. Yours is not one of them. (1) People looking for a less expersive alternative to private health clubs (2) People who take advantage of the health facilities, and many programs and sports in an environment that relect their Christian values. Also, YMCA's still have youth hostels in many locations, and they have scholarship programs for disadvantaged folks (both youths and adults). So unfortunately, the middle-class folks you spoke of will still have to associate with the working poor. :rolleyes:

Also, martial arts instructors have a somewhat mixed response from YMCA's when they ask to teach a program. As you know, there are a lot of flakes out there. Y's have gotten burned by this in the past. The another reason that instructors will often get a cold shoulder, is they use the YMCA as recruiting ground to get a base number of students so they can open a private school elsewhere. They then take the students with them and leave the Y hanging. The last reason why Y's are standoffish with martial arts programs, is the Christian mindset that still prevails (at least a little bit) that martial arts are contrary to Christian values and have practices that are "un-Christian". Practices such as a kamidana can only reinforce that. Let me give you an example.

At the last Y I taught at, we had an older gentleman come to our class and watch. He sat there quietly from the opening to the end of class. I initially introduced myself and asked him if he had any questions. He said he was just there to watch. Anyway, he repeated watching the entire class, three more times. Eventually one Saturday morning, he shows up with his 14 year old grandson. He explained that he was a very devote Christian and wanted to watch and make sure that students were not being taught anything contrary to his Christian beliefs. I have had similar events happen more then once. So people do look to see that programs at the Y reflect their personal values. You don't have to like dealing with this attitude, but it is the reality of teaching at a YMCA.

Also John, if you are explaining to your students exactly as you describe, then good for you. They can make an informed decision. However, don't be a bit surprised if you do get a few complaints to the YMCA administration concerning this matter, despite your being upfront with students.

Joseph Svinth
23rd June 2001, 15:45
During the ten years or so I associated with the Y, I can recall only a couple non-whites in the place; they were mostly middle-class Nisei who had lived in that part of town for fifty years or so. To see the working-class blacks or Samoans who lived maybe a mile south of the facility, you had (and have) to go to the health club or the community center.

Money was (and remains) the chief discriminator. After paying an initiation fee of a couple hundred bucks, dues for an individual paying by direct deposit run about $25 a month. Karate classes cost an additional $30-35 every six weeks. Thus you end up paying about $50 a month for a class that meets twice a week for an hour or two. There were no family discounts.

From an instructional standpoint, while I've never heard of anyone charging the instructor to teach at the Y, you do have to maintain minimum attendance of 10-15 students. Otherwise you get shoved into a handball court, and once there, it's a short step to the door. Why? Because the Y oversells memberships, and as a result space is at a premium during the prime hours of 6-9 p.m., and as the YMCA staff made quite clear on multiple occasions, space is allocated strictly according to the greatest number of users requiring the least amount of equipment. Hence minimum weights, maximum half-court basketball.

As for the religious zealots, well, as I always tell 'em, whenever I visit a church, there's a good chance that the preacher will stop the service to holler, "Look! In the back! A sinner! You hear for the women or the food?" In the old days, it was the former, but these days it's the refrigerator rather than their daughters that they worry about.

Greg Cumbee
23rd June 2001, 15:50
Exodus 20
1 ¶ And God spoke all these words, saying,
2 I am Jehovah your God, who has brought you out from the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
3 You shall not have any other gods before Me.
4 You shall not make a graven image for yourself, or any likeness in the heavens above, or in the earth beneath, or in the waters under the earth;
5 you shall not bow to them, and you shall not serve them; for I am Jehovah your God, a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of fathers on sons, on the third and on the fourth generation, to those that hate Me;
6 and doing kindness to thousands, to those loving Me, and to those keeping My commandments.
7 You shall not take the name of Jehovah your God in vain; for Jehovah will not leave unpunished the one who takes His name in vain.
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy;
9 six days you shall labor and do all your work;
10 and the seventh day is a sabbath to Jehovah your God; you shall not do any work, you, and your son, and your daughter, your male slave and your slave-girl, and your livestock, and your stranger who is in your gates.
11 For in six days Jehovah made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all which is in them, and He rested on the seventh day; on account of this Jehovah blessed the sabbath day and sanctified it.
12 ¶ Honor your father and your mother, so that your days may be long on the land which Jehovah your God is giving to you.
13 You shall not murder.
14 You shall not commit adultery.
15 You shall not steal.
16 You shall not testify a witness of falsehood against your neighbor.
17 You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his male slave, or his slave-girl, or his ox, or his ass, or anything which belongs to your neighbor. - GOD

Posted by: Greg Cumbee

Kit LeBlanc
23rd June 2001, 16:21
Shinto shrine in dojo in Christian facility;

Dojo destroyed by flood;


Hmmmmmmmmm..........



(John I am sorry for your loss, but maybe that will make ya LOL.)

Kit

Robert Carver
23rd June 2001, 16:40
Joseph:

I am sorry to hear that your experiences with the Y have been less than positive. Mine have been entirely different.

The money factor you spoke of is only partially correct and I do not think it is meant to be intentionally discriminatory as you imply. For the most part, initiation fees have been done away with or made very reasonable. Usually less than $100 and they can be paid in installments. You also forget the YMCA's have scholarship and financial assistance programs for those that are disadvantaged. There have ALWAYS been family discounts. Most classes at YMCA's offer two rates, a Member rate which is usually very reasonable and a Non-Member rate ($10 for members and $35 for non-members in my present case). At the YMCA we are at, they have no programs in their multipurpose room after 6:30 pm and we were able to choose our times and days. Currently we offer three nights per week at two-hours per class.

As far as minimal number of students, I have only seen this in a very few cases. For the most part, Y's will work with you to find alternative times to teach if the current schedule is not working and they have a more popular program on tap. I have never been stuck back in the handball/racquetball courts, but considering the I generally teach for free because I enjoy teaching, anywhere is better then no where.

John Lindsey
23rd June 2001, 16:45
Actually, the shrine survived quite well. Since all the rest of the YMCA was wiped out for 6 months, I don't understand the logic of Yaweh.

Reminds me of something else:

"If, as they say, God spanked this town
For being much too frisky,
Why did He burn His churches down
And save Hotaling's Whiskey?"
[Poem on 1906 San Francisco earthquake and fire, in which
the city's largest whiskey distillery was left unscathed]

Mark Brecht
23rd June 2001, 17:34
Originally posted by Robert Carver
Mark:

Unfortunately, you are off-base with your remark, at least from my experience:

Let`s take a look at world history. Christianty has killed more people through history, than both world wars together... Money and power were and still are usually the prime motivators for war... Hm, contemporary examples are also easy, as now many people decide to remarry, they get their first marriage annulled (which many churches agree rather eager to do, otherwise they would loose membership...). So I do believe that money is the prime motivator for christian leadership to bend the rules and to show tolerance, etc...

In regards to the YMCA money issues. Let me please clarify, as I did not do a good job about this before. I am aware of several individulas who teach MA`s at YMCA`s, and it seems to be the general rule that the YMCA`s take one third of the tution which the students pay to the instructors. You are correct that the instructors do not get charged directly, however the YMCA receives financial compensation for the use of their facilities...

Jeff Cook
23rd June 2001, 18:18
Joe,

Why did you only list the SECOND definition for heathen? To try to push words into my mouth to make it appear that I was slamming John? Tsk, tsk.

Heathen: (1) A person who is not a believer in any of the world's chief religions, especially one who is neither Christian, Jew, nor Muslim.

Now, do I need to explain the reason why there are first and second definitions for words in a dictionary, or can we leave the silly distraction off to the side of this fairly important discussion?

Using your logic and opinion, should we assume that John is purposely catering to upper middle class white folks, because he teaches at and supports the racially exclusive YMCA?

Also, to reiterate for those folks who seem to not hear me, I did not say this is bad budo; I was pointing out that bad budo is highly subjective, and maybe you all should remember that in future discussions.

John, thanks for the explanation. As I expected (and the reason why I gave you the benefit of the doubt) you explained to your students exactly what they were bowing to.

I just hope that doesn't cause a Christian zealot to make an issue out of it some day.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

John Lindsey
23rd June 2001, 19:51
BTW, the YMCA is probably 75% Mexican Americans, due to the part of town that it is in.

Jason Chambers
23rd June 2001, 20:36
As long as we are going off on a tangent here about Christianity and the like... here is my two cents.


Originally posted by Greg Cumbee
Exodus 20
4 You shall not make a graven image for yourself, or any likeness in the heavens above, or in the earth beneath, or in the waters under the earth;

**Who violates this one? Hmmm, let's see... the Catholics with thier Pope, Saints (statues in the church) and what have you.


5 you shall not bow to them, and you shall not serve them; for I am Jehovah your God, a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of fathers on sons, on the third and on the fourth generation, to those that hate Me;

**Technically, this one covers pretty much every one of us that works for a living.... if you ain't the boss. :D So what do we do? Quit working and trust "Jehovah" to deliver us groceries and other essentials? :rolleyes:

7 You shall not take the name of Jehovah your God in vain; for Jehovah will not leave unpunished the one who takes His name in vain.

**Again, another broken my maybe 90% of so-called Christians... saying "Oh my God!" is a violation... :nono:

8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy;

**People... the Sabbath is not on Tuesday, Wednesday or Thursday. It is SUNDAY. Some devouts would argue this point...


9 six days you shall labor and do all your work;
10 and the seventh day is a sabbath to Jehovah your God; you shall not do any work, you, and your son, and your daughter, your male slave and your slave-girl, and your livestock, and your stranger who is in your gates.

**Hey, well here ya go... God said it.... so what's the problem?

13 You shall not murder.

**I suppose killing in "holy wars" was/is not murder. :rolleyes:

14 You shall not commit adultery.

**Now... touchy issue. Do you stay single and celebate after a divorce? You know, in some faiths, you only not married anymore until death does you part... :D

15 You shall not steal.

**Corporations, led by Christian folk do this ALL THE TIME... :nono:


16 You shall not testify a witness of falsehood against your neighbor.

**Our Christian "politicians" are best known for this one... :D


17 You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his male slave, or his slave-girl, or his ox, or his ass, or anything which belongs to your neighbor. - GOD

**Frankly I have no desire for my neighbor's ass... he doesn't have an ox or any slaves... and hell, I already have a wife... who need another one? :laugh:


I guess my point would be:

Who cares if you put a Shinto shrine in a YMCA? Just because we have a Republican leading the country, doe that mean we all have to be Republican? NOPE

Are we saying the Shinto faith is wrong? If that, then the same could be said for the Christian faith. Most religions has written histories... most are strikingly similar to the Christian story of how we got here. So what is to say there not all inherently the same?

I think they are. God is God... what does it matter how you worship him? I am no Atheist, I believe in God but I don't prescribe to any particular faith, especially a Western faith, until one comes along that practices what they preach...


The Kingdom of God is within YOU, not in houses of stone and wood...
- - - - - - Jesus Christ, according to the Gospel of Thomas

P.S. Hey Mark... maybe cynism is in order here... ;)

Don Cunningham
24th June 2001, 00:38
When I was in Japan, it was quite common for families to pray at Shinto shrines for some events and then at Buddhist temples for others. Japanese religions are very open minded about personal beliefs and values. In fact, it was the Christian doctrine regarding exclusiveness that caused the feudal authorities to be so concerned and led to the persecutions. I think they were also a bit angry about the way the Catholic Church was getting involved in their internal politics and stirring up some of the southern daimyo, but that's another issue.

MarkF
24th June 2001, 14:04
The goyim speak.

I've read this with real amusement and almost fell out of my chair laughing at some comments. As to Mark being right or wrong about christianity or religion proper, he is at least half-right.

Two really short comments on religion: "Christians pass the plate and pretend to "ask" for "donations." Jews send a bill annually.

"Have you noticed that God can't handle money? He always has his hand out, and when he earns enough to live, he doesn't have to pay taxes, proving he is God." You know, death and taxes? Death he does great in the money department, and at marriage, well, please. And people pay to mourn better than those who "give at the office."
****

My YMCA in the LA area was managed by a Jew. Why? No one else was able to raise the money for new digs badly needed. It took him six months. Oh, and the judo program was two bucks a class.

Today, the YMCA which "sponsers" my judo program charges MY students 40/month for the classes. Full Membership is a LOT more. And they don't pay me, they pay through the nose.

It took me over a month to get them to give some folks a break in the dues for classes, but absolutely wouldn't do the same with membership.

I'm closed part of the year because I don't have enough students, and even with dues, the money I get is for paying for the program, tournaments, insurance, and lots of other goodies which I am not reimbursed.

In the one private for-profit dojo I went to when I was a kid charged ten dollars a month and all the classes you wanted to attend.

Kamidanas? If I could, I would say no to the "devout christian." Generally, these people can be found in church, which just happens to be were all the sinners congregate on Sundays to show off their new clothes. I don't have one, and I have taken the flags out of the gym where classes are held. One is the state flag, which really is the Zia Indian flag, and the US flag. Politcs and religion do mix, and that's the problem.

Personally, I'd rather hang with the pagans. A much more life- engaging group, if I say so myself. Now the Jews for Yeshua, or messianic Jews, are a problem. In fact, they are downright scary if you don't take yeshua as your lord and savior while observing all other Jewish functions, such as "shul" friday evenings. (they also drive on Saturdays (this is a no-no to the god I was brought up to believe). They are not shy in telling a Jew of a REAL faith that they are going straight to hell and will be damned and burned for eternity. The only others who say that are the Scientists. They say that is was a "Test" this little thing in Europe not too long ago called the Shoa (Look it up if you don't get my drift). Now there is a test not worth the time in repeating, failing or not.

Well, perhaps I am going to hell. I just followed my teachers' examples. I don't even have a picture of J. Kano on the wall. But do we bow to an invisible one? Well, I am not sure, but I was told bowing was to thank the tatami for the damage it was allowing us to do to it, and then to bow off was an apology. Pagan? Who gives a rat's patoot?

ghp
24th June 2001, 19:23
Greg,


10 And the seventh day is a sabbath to Jehovah your God; you shall not do any work, you, and your son, and your daughter, your male slave and your slave-girl, and your livestock, and your stranger who is in your gates.

17 You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his male slave, or his slave-girl, or his ox, or his ass, or anything which belongs to your neighbor.

So, anyone being a true believer of everything in the bible would have to have slaves?? Where do I place my order?? I need two slave girls to clean house and cook ... and other duties as assigned.

Although I am religiously "confused" and adhere to no specific group, I see absolutely nothing wrong with adhering to the policies of a religious-based organization if I am using its facilities. No kamidana in the budo-room of the YMCA? Okay. No eating pork in a Muslim-owned cafeteria? Sure, okay with me. No bowing in the Young Men's Jewish Association (is there one?) dojo? Fine by me.

If the religious-based organization didn't mind my installing a kamidana ... that's just icing on the cake.

Regards,
Guy

p.s. John, do you also make them recite the RANGER Creed?? hehehe

Joseph Svinth
25th June 2001, 01:08
It was the Young Men's Hebrew Association; now it's the JCCA. http://www.jcca.org/transferhome . They have 275 facilities and claim a milllion members.

For some early history of the YMCA in Seattle, see http://www.historylink.org/output.CFM?file_ID=3074&keyword=ymca . QUOTE: The gymnasium proved to be far more popular than the Y’s Bible classes, prayer meetings, and other religious activities. By February 1887, an average of 350 people a month were using the gymnasium while fewer than a dozen were attending the weekly Bible classes. “Does it pay to have a gymnasium and bathroom?” George Carter, the Y’s general secretary, asked in an article published in the Bugle Call two years after the gym was opened. “We find the membership has increased 300 per cent since the above have been introduced.”

And yes, the Y is open to all people. Regarding entrance policies, much depends on whether the facility has a pool or not. If it's a Y in a ratty old school, then often they are quite good about reducing rates. But if it's the new one, with the pool, weight room, basketball court, and showers, then hang on to your wallet.

For comparative purposes, the cost of an annual membership for a family is about $650, while for seniors or people on scholarship, the rate is about $125. Class fees are extra, and can sometimes be waived. But, if not, then for a teenager or young adult, you can end up paying $50-$85 a month for two days a week, which is comparable to commercial taekwondo schools and about twice what they charge at local judo clubs.

By the way, the first definition of pagan in my dictionary is "A follower of a polytheistic religion (as in ancient Rome)." For "Heathen," the complete first definition of the adjective is: "1 Of or relating to heathens, their religions or their customs. 2. Strange, uncivilized." For the noun, the complete second definition is "1. An unconverted member of a people or nation that does not acknowledge the God of the Bible. 2. An uncivilized or irreligious person." Thus two of the four listed definitions are derogatory ("strange, uncivilized") and only one of the four definitions (the first noun usage) refers specifically to people who do not acknowledge the God of the Bible.

On that topic, which Bible? I mean, the Jews, Catholics, Coptics, Protestants, Orthodox, and Latter Day Saints all have radically differing versions. (As does Islam and do, presumably, Candomble and Santeria.) And are Zoroastrian documents included, as in Islam, or are they excluded?

Jeff Cook
25th June 2001, 03:53
Well, Joe, as the first definitions in your dictionary and my dictionary are the most common usages of the word, and as I do not have a history of being rude or defamatory on this board, I think a reasonable person could safely assume that I was not being derogatory towards John or Shintoists by my usage of the word "pagan." Hopefully you, John, and everyone else is clear on that now. However, your discourse does make a nice distraction from the discussion at hand, although not a very sophisticated one.

Guy,

"If the religious-based organization didn't mind my installing a kamidana ... that's just icing on the cake."

I have to agree with your comment - as long as the religious-based organization understood what a kamidana was, what it was used for, what it stood for, and how it was going to be used, BEFORE it was installed.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

Jeff Hamacher
25th June 2001, 09:08
Originally posted by John Lindsey
Now, the other question is if Shinto is a religion? I say that because I have met many Japanese who don't consider it such! Well, of course it is a religion to our Western standards, but it appears to exist in a "gray zone" to many Japanese...
now if that ain't the $64,000 question ...:D

my 5 years of living in japan, as well as a bit of work for the CBC during the Nagano Winter Olympics putting together "japanese culture" spots, leads me to agree with John's thumbnail sketch above. japanese on the whole do not involve their spiritual beliefs in the majority of the daily lives, barring those japanese who have converted to Christianity or other monetheist faiths. neither Buddhism nor Shinto present themselves as moral codes of behaviour in the way that religions of the Judeo-Christian-Muslim tradition do, and thus the typical japanese understanding of faith or spirituality is quite different than people from outside of japan or perhaps some parts of Asia. this is not to say that japanese have no religious belief whatsoever, but their relationship with spirituality is simply different.

japanese society has for many years structured itself on rules that are either influenced by or very similar to Confucian thought. religious practice has, for the most part, played second fiddle to this social code of conduct. since Shinto has (to the best of my knowledge) no doctrine and consists almost entirely of rituals, it fits very neatly with the way japanese tend to think of faith. to the "westerner" they may come off as "fairweather believers", but this is how many, if not most, japanese practise their beliefs.

the issue of the kamidana is much trickier. part of being Shinto is being japanese, and i can't really imagine "converting", although if more knowledgable folk would like to correct me, please feel free. if you work from the assumption that, over the hundreds of years that japanese have trained in martial arts, they didn't even stop to consider that non-japanese might eventually become martial arts students, then the kamidana would never become an issue. now that non-japanese have joined the ranks of students not to mention teachers of japanese martial arts, the issue deserves some consideration.

as a religious artifact, a kamidana in an ostensibly Christian institution could be considered an affront to the operators of the establishment. on the other hand, it's not as though Shinto is looking to compete with Christianity, and the proposition itself would probably strike "followers" of Shinto as rather strange. i think it fits with a culturally-informed approach to training in the japanese martial arts and the etiquette related to the kamidana in the dojo is indispensable, but i cannot see it as religious practice in the same way one might a Christian ritual. of course, one musn't forget Judeo-Christian-Muslim injunctions against idol (or object) worship, and the kamidana may be construed as such.

bad budo? well, it seems to me that every student has to make their own choice. if the presence or influence of japanese spirituality offends the potential student's faith than it is up to them whether or not they will begin training. it seems to me, John, that you are taking an honourable approach by telling students plainly about the nature of the kamidana. preserving the traditions of whatever martial art you train in seems to me to embody good budo, not bad at all.

jeff "i talk too much for my own good" hamacher

PS John: apologies again for the computer virus, but i did manage to disinfect my machine.

Yamantaka
25th June 2001, 10:55
Originally posted by Joseph Svinth
On that topic, which Bible? I mean, the Jews, Catholics, Coptics, Protestants, Orthodox, and Latter Day Saints all have radically differing versions. (As does Islam and do, presumably, Candomble and Santeria.) And are Zoroastrian documents included, as in Islam, or are they excluded?

YAMANTAKA : Just a small amendment that does not detract from your points, I believe...Candomblé, Santería and Voodoo (Vodunsi) do not have religious books. They're wholly based on oral traditions and principles. And most of the bad propaganda associated with those cults have been propagated by catholic and protestant christians, as the "white goat" (human sacrifices). Forgetting that the Lord God demanded from Abraham the sacrifice of his son...(And Abraham accepted it without discussion what led us to believe that such a practice weren't so uncommon or alien to the jewish people, to suffer it from their own God).
Anyway, as I said before, I feel all this dogma, prejudice and intolerance to be very disagreeable. Religion, by its own precepts, should be about love, tolerance and goodwill.
Oh, Well...Perhaps I'm wrong...
Best

MarkF
25th June 2001, 11:22
Originally posted by Yamantaka


YAMANTAKA : Just a small amendment that does not detract from your points, I believe...Candomblé, Santería and Voodoo (Vodunsi) do not have religious books. They're wholly based on oral traditions and principles. And most of the bad propaganda associated with those cults have been propagated by catholic and protestant christians, as the "white goat" (human sacrifices). Forgetting that the Lord God demanded from Abraham the sacrifice of his son...(And Abraham accepted it without discussion what led us to believe that such a practice weren't so uncommon or alien to the jewish people, to suffer it from their own God).
Anyway, as I said before, I feel all this dogma, prejudice and intolerance to be very disagreeable. Religion, by its own precepts, should be about love, tolerance and goodwill.
Oh, Well...Perhaps I'm wrong...
Best

You could be wrong, Ubaldo, but I doubt it. But I do have a question now that you are the one who decided to explain the subtopic of your post.:)

Isn't Santeria have at its root, christianity, and further, Catholicsim as the way?

I mean, the cross is a tool, the chicken is killed in a manner which is common to people who eat chicken, it just isn't as much symbolism as the church, with the consuming of blood and flesh replaced by wined and biscuits?

From what I know, and it isn't much, but relieving oneself of sin is much easier in the church, as in santeria, the same things one is obsolved from and blessed, it just uses something more realistic than a box with a man inside.

At any rate, Ubaldo is correct in his last parapraph, and while I'm not one to ask to close a thread, I think he, Ubaldo, has gone through the trash and found the very essence of humanity. After all, much of what religion is, forms the basis for "Man's inhumanity toward man."

And I thought it was shiai.:D

Mark

MarkF
25th June 2001, 11:29
Is this a new hack or something? This thread is running in 'shinto' at the same time it is here, posts are posted in both, even if only written in one.

Fancy duds!

Mark

Charlie Kondek
25th June 2001, 16:32
Jeff, you wrote:

"...neither Buddhism nor Shinto present themselves as moral codes of behaviour in the way that religions of the Judeo-Christian-Muslim tradition do..."

I am not a Buddhist, and I cannot speak with any authority on Shinto, but I think most Buddhists would take issue with that statement. I think most Buddhists would insist that there *is* a rigid moral code that comes with their faith, often ignored or disregarded in favor of mysticism and whatnot. I only point this out because I have made the same mistake in the past. Buddhists are increasingly frustrated with Westerners who do not realize that Buddhism has its own Eightfold Path the same way Judeo-Christian traditions have their 10 commandments. This is one of many misconceptions about Buddhism.

To learn more, here's a good site:

www.darkzen.com

Yamantaka
25th June 2001, 19:28
Originally posted by MarkF
You could be wrong, Ubaldo, but I doubt it. But I do have a question now that you are the one who decided to explain the subtopic of your post.:)
Isn't Santeria have at its root, christianity, and further, Catholicsim as the way?
I mean, the cross is a tool, the chicken is killed in a manner which is common to people who eat chicken, it just isn't as much symbolism as the church, with the consuming of blood and flesh replaced by wined and biscuits?
From what I know, and it isn't much, but relieving oneself of sin is much easier in the church, as in santeria, the same things one is obsolved from and blessed, it just uses something more realistic than a box with a man inside.
Mark

YAMANTAKA : Mark San, you're more evil than Darth Vader...:eek:
Let me see, it's a big problem to explain. Anyway...
The Orisha Religions (Candomblé, Vodunsi, Santería, Macumba and a few others) HAVE NOT catholicism or even Christianity at its roots. It's a pure african religion, based on the cult of ancestors and of the forces of nature.
The problem arised when the african negroes were taken as slaves to the Americas. The Slave-Masters (Hello, Joe Svinth!:p )
didn't allow the slaves to cultivate their own gods or keep anything of their culture. Also the priests wished to convert the slaves to the TRUE faith (Christianity, of course!), so there was a dual process : the african gods (Shango, Ogun, Eshu...) were said to represent christian saints and the negroes agreed, as it was the only way to continue to adore their own gods. So, both the priests and the negroes said they weren't revering Ogun but Saint Sebastian and so on. The negroes also believed that the christian churces were "places of power" and that they could "steal" some of that power for their own purposes. I was present at the funeral of one of Candomble's Greatest Priestesses, Milady Mother (Mãe Senhora) and several african princes came to Bahia to present their hommages to her.
But those negroes didn't know how to read and so the Bible wasn't important to them. They kept their oral traditions and also their own "places of power" (open places in the forest, Giant Iroko Trees, crossroads...).
Today, there's a great movement, in the Americas and in Africa, to dissociate the Orisha Religions from christianity, since that linking is no longer necessary.
If you want to know more, I may get some bibliography for you. Sadly, most of that is in portuguese or african languages. Perhaps, our living Encyclopedia, Joe Svinth, may help us here, with something in english.
Hello, Warden of Knowledge, can you help us?:rolleyes:
See, the problem you got me into?:mad:
Best

Dennis_Mahon
25th June 2001, 22:38
After all this Christian bashing, I have to wonder if I really want to be a member of this forum anymore....

Christianity is responsible for more death than any other religion?

Christianity is always demanding more money?

Christianity is intollerant, and persecutes?

So much for "enlightened" martial artists!

You know why the Church collects so much money? Because we spend it, on charities around the world. There was just a devestating earthquake in Peru; do you know who's leading the relief effort? The Catholic Church.

We've killed more people than any other religion? What about aetheism? Between the Nazis, Stalin, and Mao, how many millions and tens of millions were killed by the Allmighty State? Meanwhile, the Catholic Church saved over 700,000 Jews from the concentration camps, by hiding them in monestaries, convents, seminaries, and in the Vatican itself.
Right now, their is a jihad being waged against Christians in southern Sudan. The Church spends some of that awful money finding the women and children that have been sold into slavery, and purchasing their freedom. Religious shrines and home churches in China are routinely destroyed by the government, because they remain loyal to Rome. Priests and bishops are condemned to the legolai, prison camps where they have to perform slave labor. Take a good look at the products you buy at the store- chances are, it was by a priest in slavery.

Think I'm angry?

DAMN RIGHT I AM!!!!!!!!!!!

Enjoy your bigotry.

Jeff Cook
26th June 2001, 01:22
Dennis,

Hang in there, buddy - I feel your pain. I feel sadness rather than anger. In typical fashion, many folks brand a group of people as "bad" or "undesirable" because of the actions of a minority within the group.

Isn't it interesting to observe the overly defensive reactions to a worthy topic? Maybe we should count the various diversions and digressions that this topic has elicited. I wonder why that is. Would anybody care to explain?

Hell, let's talk about anything except the topic at hand.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

Jeff Hamacher
26th June 2001, 01:49
Originally posted by Charlie Kondek
"...neither Buddhism nor Shinto present themselves as moral codes of behaviour in the way that religions of the Judeo-Christian-Muslim tradition do..."

I am not a Buddhist, and I cannot speak with any authority on Shinto, but I think most Buddhists would take issue with that statement. I think most Buddhists would insist that there *is* a rigid moral code that comes with their faith, often ignored or disregarded in favor of mysticism and whatnot.
a very similar line of discussion cropped up in the Zen forum, and i believe it supports my comment above. in essence, Buddhism is a "way of liberation", the path that the practioner follows to reach enlightenment. part of following the path involves the observance of certain principles; i, too, must admit i'm no expert, but this may have something to do with The Eightfold Path. to some, those principles may be taken as rules or moral codes, and if i understand it correctly, in part by failing to follow those guidelines the practitioner condemns themself to spiritual ignorance and fails to attain enlightenment. on the other hand, my readings into the subject (both in english and japanese) tend not to focus on the idea of following codes of behaviour, and reaching enlightenment has much more to do with personal growth and change than with the way one acts outwardly. i'm certainly not suggesting that Buddhism is devoid of moral precepts or teachings, but it is vastly different in nature to "religion" as practioners of monetheisms understand it, and this in turn has an influence on japanese spirituality. in response to your website suggestion (and i'm looking forward to checking it out), i'll recommend you read Alan Watts' The Way of Zen. it is an excellent presentation on the development of Buddhism and subsequent birth of Zen. read you later.

cheers, jeff hamacher

KenpoKev
26th June 2001, 02:51
Back to the original question...again.

I think one needs to determine how apprpriate it is to display a religious icon (alter) in "christian" facility. If it was discussed, and agreed upon in advance, fine. If not, then perhaps one should consider discussing the matter with the administration or remove the alter.

Is it bad budo? I think not, perhaps not the best manners, but then again the various YMCA's around this country are no more "christian" organizations than the average 24-Hour Fitness Center. On the other hand, some YMCA's are strongly affiliated with local churches and would see the placement of a Shinto shrine in their facilities as highly insulting. Kinda like serving spare-ribs at a Kosher deli. :)

BTW the YMCA I grew up in (nearly every Saturday for 5 years) drew from all sectors of society, but mostly just working class folks. The Salvation Army used a portion of the facility and they had a "shelter" for the homeless. Syracuse, NY circa 1965.

Respectfully,

Gil Gillespie
26th June 2001, 07:29
I, too, "grew up" at the YMCA, hanging after high school to swim and mostly play hoops. None of us were tuned in to the "Christian" aspect of the Y. It was the best possible rec center. It didn't ask or try to be more.

Personally I find nothing wrong with a kamiza in a YMCA. I applaud the Houston Y's tolerance and John's candor. Even given it's Shinto source, a Japanese budo kamiza is far more a source of tradition, respect, and presence of that budo's founder or his/ its spirit. The only way a YMCA (or a JCC) could find said kamiza offensive would be if it represented a prosyletizing or missionary aspect of its religious source. Shinto has no such tradition. Tied to Japanese culture and race as it is, it CANNOT manifest such a goal. So that's one view.

Another far more concrete: in the early 1990's our Orlando aikido dojo (Shindai Aikikai) lost our training hall when the gymnastics school that housed us closed down. Enter the YMCA. They offered us a large carpeted meeting room in which to train. We all became members at a reduced honorary fee: The YMCA came forward to save us.

But something was missing; we had no kamiza. I have always admired the spirit of the moment in Jewish services when the ark is opened and the Torah brought forth. With that in mind I built a portable kamiza with two doors that opened onto M. Ueshiba Sensei's portrait. The open doors held the kamiza upright.

Nowadays, Shindai is the largest aikido dojo in the southeast and we're very proud of its growth. One of our proudest days was moving our giant old (8' square) joined cedar kamiza from the empty gymnastics school. It turned our warehouse space into a dojo. The Toyama sword guys installed a hardwood training floor and their own kamiza. Judo and karate organizations accrued; Shindai became a budokan. (The judo guys use the old portable kamiza to house J. Kano Sensei's portrait now.)

So the kamiza is vital to all of our Japanese budo groups. None of us view it in a religious sense, but as realistically the "seat of the spirit" before which we train. None of us claim or aspire to be Shinto. But all understand the spiritual nature that underlies and energizes our keiko.

As an aside to the above thread drift: my sister has a dictionary definition of philistine---"one who is devoid of culture and indifferent to the arts." To bad history gave them a bad rap. Archeology is revealing them to be a refined and artistic culture yielding intricate artifacts rivalling the ancient Celts in graceful elegance.

MarkF
26th June 2001, 09:58
Originally posted by Dennis_Mahon
After all this Christian bashing, I have to wonder if I really want to be a member of this forum anymore....



I'm sorry if I don't share your pain, but the reasons for quitting a forum, in a Shinto subforum, doesn't really make much sense. No one attacked the church for anything, and in fact, was a discussion over, first the placing of a religious relic in a YMCA (shinto), and while some posts were out of left field such as mine, in no way was anything posted concerning or pertaining to, "bashing the church." Some were purely informational, and these, too were bashed as not stcking to the topic.

My posts were made up largely of jokes, some older than I am, and others, such as the subtopic of the "how much" in the YMCA had nothing to do, IMO, with church-bashing. A lot of this was mispeak, and while there is a thread of truth, it comes not at the expense of any church.

BTW: People, not the Vatican or its members saved people from becoming "crispy critters" during the holocaust. The Vatican never opined in any way their disapproval of the goings on, but people, on their own mostly, DID save many from a horrible death at the hands of other human beings. Many of these were christians, and Catholic

The Vatican simply didn't get invovled, and is still trying to live that down. Mistakes in judgment happen, and as a Jew raised in a conservative Jewish home, it was not spoken.


I could go on, but no one has said anything of the kind, about the church, with perhaps statements of money and churches, synagogues, mosks, etc., as a necessary evil. Comparing the way Christians and Jews collect donations was strictly a very old joke, and as this is a Shinto forum, and someone thought otherwise, it would have been sent to the trash.

So if you took notice, nearly all (with a couple of exceptions), brought up the history of the YMCA, then the JCCA, so within the narrowest of viewpoints, could a churchbashing be observed.

So how did this come from a Kamidana in a Christian organization to discussion of mostly christianity and shinto? Simple. Both were mentioned, so the discussion was opened by the original poster, even if that wasn't his intent.

Besides, Kevin's answer to placing a kamidana in a dojo was the best I've read. Most kamidana's I've observed are usually limited to a photograph, hanging from a nail in the dojo.

But then, judoka are rarely so specific.:)

Mark

MarkF
26th June 2001, 10:30
Ubaldo,
You so much more eloquently said what I meant that another comment is not necessary.

I only add this. I witness a service of sorts of Santeria in NYC (East Harlem) in which something similar happened while I was there. There was a chicken, there was blood after slitting the animal, and there were crosses and shrines to Jesus, more like a kamidana, really, and I had a heck of a time getting the blood out. I didn't even try to get out the blood on my tee shirt.

I understood enough Spanish also to know there were hints of Catholicism, people asking to be absolved, and blessings made all round.

My mistake was in saying it had roots in Christianity instead of apects of Catholicism. I'm sure this was picked up along the way, as in most religions once they leave the land where it was born.

There are Jewish Priests (not rabbis, but Cohn) who are said to be linked genetically today to Abraham. In Africa, there is a sect of Jews there who claim this same thing, and they have finally been given the genetic proof they had been calling.

Do you know of the religious practices of the Native Mexicans, the Tarahumara, who, while continuing most of the original practices of their ancestors, took on also, the Catholicism of The Spanish, probably as a necessity of life back then, but who still front the Christianity the natives were exposed to?


Some speak Spanish today, but the majority still speaks a distinctly different tongue.

Interesting stuff.

Mark

Mark Brecht
26th June 2001, 10:57
Originally posted by Jeff Cook
Dennis,

Hang in there, buddy - I feel your pain. I feel sadness rather than anger. In typical fashion, many folks brand a group of people as "bad" or "undesirable" because of the actions of a minority within the group.

Isn't it interesting to observe the overly defensive reactions to a worthy topic? Maybe we should count the various diversions and digressions that this topic has elicited. I wonder why that is. Would anybody care to explain?

Hell, let's talk about anything except the topic at hand.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

Ok, staying in topic. Jeff I do think you are being a bit of a hypocrite, especially with having started this post.
Let me explain why I think so.

Wabujitsu: wa - "peaceful" or "harmonious", bujitsu - martial/peacekeeping arts of the samurai/warriors

I took this from your website. To consider that a mix of Judo and Karate create a JUTSU art is highly subjective view, but that is not my point. You are refering to your art as "Martial Arts of the Samurai". Considering where the Gendai Arts come from, I do agree with you. Now, don`t you think YOU should educate your students and prospective students who might look at your website, that these arts are related, connected and founded in relation with eastern philosophy and religions. E.g. there are handpostures or breathing techniques, etc... which are related to esoteric Buddhism. Don`t you also think that the fact that most dojo in Japan have kamidana in them, shows the relationship...
How come that you are upset about a dojo displaying a kamidana ??? Because it is a Christan place??? One they get money for the use of their facility, and if they don`t like having it there, and they don`t need to rent out the space... Two, a kamidana has ovbivously some kind of religous or spirtiual meaning. Do you think the YMCA administration believes the MA instructor puts up a dollhouse...???

Joseph Svinth
26th June 2001, 11:43
For a website that provides links to Billy Graham, santeria, and other African religious groups, try http://www-sul.stanford.edu/depts/ssrg/africa/religion.html .

Jeff Cook
26th June 2001, 13:44
"Now, don`t you think YOU should educate your students and prospective students who might look at your website, that these arts are related, connected and founded in relation with eastern philosophy and religions. "

Mark, what makes you think I don't educate my students concerning this? My website is a basic introduction to what I do, and a source of technical information for my students. It is not all-inclusive; the website does not contain everything I teach and lecture about.

"How come that you are upset about a dojo displaying a kamidana ??? "

Actually, I am not upset. I don't see a problem with it whatsoever, as long as everybody involved knows what it is and what it stands for. I have stated this in a few of my posts. And John says he did inform everybody. Why do you think I have a problem with this? Because I tried to inspire a lively discussion, keep it going, and keep it on track?

And, although it is not your "point," "To consider that a mix of Judo and Karate create a JUTSU art is highly subjective view, but that is not my point. " Much of my training has been in karate JUTSU and juJUTSU. JUTSU is a direct reflection of the priorities of the art and how it is trained. (Again, this has nothing to do with the topic at hand.)

So, in typical e-budo fashion, you have made erroneous and negative assumptions. Again I ask, why is it the norm for people on this board, in this kind of discussion, to automatically assume the worst, and project their negative feelings onto it?

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

Dennis_Mahon
26th June 2001, 22:25
BTW: People, not the Vatican or its members saved people from becoming "crispy critters" during the holocaust. The Vatican never opined in any way their disapproval of the goings on, but people, on their own mostly, DID save many from a horrible death at the hands of other human beings. Many of these were christians, and Catholic

The Vatican simply didn't get invovled, and is still trying to live that down. Mistakes in judgment happen, and as a Jew raised in a conservative Jewish home, it was not spoken.

From The Real Story of Pius XII and the Jews

by James Bogle
James Bogle is a barrister of the Middle Temple and former cavalry officer.

Reprinted with permission from The Salisbury Review, Spring 1996


Around the same time, the German Chief of Police in Rome threatened to send some 200 Jews to the Russian front unless they produced within 36 hours 50 kg of gold or equivalent in currency. The Chief Rabbi approached the Holy See which immediately placed 15 kg at his disposal and lent the necessary money free of charge. More than half the Jews of Rome were sheltered in ecclesiastical buildings opened on the express instructions of Pius XII himself. The Vatican Secretariat of State saved more Jews by faking their baptisms and sending lists of "baptized" Jews to the German Ambassador, Weizsacker, so that they could be evacuated. Many of those saved were helped to escape by the massive over-issuing of Vatican passports, particularly in the latter half of 1944, and records exist of many of these. However, this had perforce to be handled with little or no ordinary documentary evidence since the Nazis would without doubt have crushed this means of escape immediately if they had become aware of the extent to which it was being used to facilitate the rescue of Jews.

In November, 1943 Chief Rabbi Herzog wrote to Cardinal Roncalli, the future Pope John XXIII, then Apostolic Delegate for Turkey and Greece, saying: "I take this opportunity to express to your Eminence my sincere thanks as well as my deep appreciation of your very kindly attitude to Israel and of the invaluable help given by the Catholic Church to the Jewish people in its affliction. Would you please convey these sentiments which come from Sion, to His Holiness the Pope (Pius XII) along with the assurances that the people of Israel know how to value his assistance and his attitude." The American Jewish Welfare Board wrote to Pius XII in July 1944 to express its appreciation for the protection given to the Jews during the German occupation of Italy. At the end of the war, the World Jewish Congress expressed its gratitude to the Pope and gave 20 million Lire to Vatican charities. A former Israeli diplomat in Italy claimed that: "The Catholic Church saved more Jewish lives during the war than all the other Churches, religious institutions and rescue organizations put together. Its record stands in startling contrast to the achievements of the International Red Cross and the Western Democracies."

You also might want to read The last Three Popes and the Jews, by Rabbi (and former Israeli diplomat) Pinchas Lapide, for more on how "The Vatican simply didn't get invovled".

And tell me Mark, how would you like it if someone started telling patently false stereotypes ("jokes") about the Jews?

Jeff Cook
26th June 2001, 22:44
Mark F., your comment:

"No one attacked the church for anything, and in fact, was a discussion over, first the placing of a religious relic in a YMCA (shinto), and while some posts were out of left field such as mine, in no way was anything posted concerning or pertaining to, "bashing the church." Some were purely informational, and these, too were bashed as not stcking to the topic."

In case you didn't catch it, Mark B. made this remark, in part: "Christianty has killed more people through history..."

Can you see how some people may view that remark as an attack on the church? To borrow and bastardize an old phrase, religions don't kill people, people kill people. I don't think murder and mahem are strictly Christian practices.

The way Mark B.'s general anti-Christian posts were worded, it seems that he was justifying bringing another religion's practices into a Christian institution because Christians are all a bunch of murderous, greedy evil-doers and need to be straightened out by Shintoism. On the other hand, other posters wrote some very inciteful analysis of Shintoism, whether it is a religion or a philosophy, etc., and discussed the topic of a kamidana it the Y on it's merits, without the anti-Christian spew.

Mark B., I apologize if that is not how you were intending to come across, but after reading a few of the responses to your posts, I would say you did come across that way to a few people. And if you did mean it, well, you are certainly entitled to your opinion.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

Yamantaka
27th June 2001, 02:31
Originally posted by Joseph Svinth
For a website that provides links to Billy Graham, santeria, and other African religious groups, try http://www-sul.stanford.edu/depts/ssrg/africa/religion.html .

YAMANTAKA : Joe San, you're a dodo!:wave:

Kevin House
27th June 2001, 07:10
Originally posted by John Lindsey

Now, the other question is if Shinto is a religion? I say that because I have met many Japanese who don't consider it such! Well, of course it is a religion to our Western standards, but it appears to exist in a "gray zone" to many Japanese...

I got this form a book by Floyd Hiatt Ross: Shinto: The way of Japan.

April 24, 1900 Bureau of Shrines and Temples divided into 2 offices
(1) Office of Shrines
(2) Office of Religions

Administratively shrines are separated from religions. Shrine Shinto declared to not be a religion; reverence for emperor and his ancestors obligatory on all Japanese.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This had much to do with the separation of Shrine Shinto and State Shinto. Then after WW2 once again the status changed and all financial aid and support to Shrine Shinto was cut and Shinto was declared a religion and was supported only by the locals and not the goverment.
This is prob why most Japanese still do not consider Shrine Shinto a religion and more respect and memory of those ancestors that they choose to honor. Be it the emperors or some past hero or deity.

This is my own opinion but a kamidama in the dojo is what you want it to be. Be it "the seat of the dojo" and a focus point for all at bow in/bow out. Or a place to honor those that have gone before us; be it Takamatsu-san or Funakoshi or whoever.

I make this distinction from say a christian cross or a Jewish star of David. As those are symbols of worship and a shrine in the dojo is not.
Just MHO

Kevin R. House
Ninpo Internet News

MarkF
27th June 2001, 11:30
Jeff,
The line was a typical slash at Christianity, not the Vatican, as that is what I call "The Church."

As for the quotes from a few rabbis, some who were thankful DURING the war for the help of people who reacted with some humanity, I've got hundreds which read the contrary concerning the church. It also does no good to talk about it since fully one-third of all people in the US think the holocaust didn't exist or that it was overblown.

The Catholic Church in no way contributed to helping Jews, gypsies, male homoseuals, or any other human being, and "turned the other cheek" when it was known full-well what was really happening.

It doesn't surprise me that one would hunt down an apology-churning quote such as this, as even Pope John Paul II has all but apologized to Jews when last in Israel, though an incomplete apology it was.

Don't ever tell the son of survivors and one of a family lost in Eastern Europe, as I claim to be an Ashkenazi Jew since I learned what it meant. It wasn't discussed at home because there was nothing to discuss, but I would like the see the pertinent quotes from those of Elie Wiesel where he excused the Church and the Vatican from its responsabilities.

Rabbi means teacher, and you will not here anything of the kind from Jewish Priests.

Unfortunately the government of the US also refused help in a direct plea to bomb the tracks leading to the camps, as "It isn't in the best interest of the US to get involved in what is little more than a Political argument." -- FDR

Ahh, sometimes useless means more than other times.

Jeff Cook
27th June 2001, 16:05
Mark F.,

Thanks for your clarification on what you meant by "church." In that context, I have to agree with you.

To all: It is unfortunate that this discussion has degenerated into religion-bashing. Any one of us can find a quote or a statistic to support our positions, one way or the other, on the positives and negatives of any religion. This type of argument is pointless, and only results in discord amongst us.

I doubt if any Christians on this board have murdered any Jews or Muslims lately, and I doubt if any Jews on this board have attacked any Arabs. And I have a good feeling that we don't have any Nazi's participating in this discussion.

I don't support the criminal actions of anybody, regardless of their religion, and I am sure the same is true of everybody here. We all need to face the fact that criminal and evil elements have existed and currently exist in every religious organization, and use their various faiths and religious affiliations to justify their nefarious deeds. Nothing anybody says here is going to change that fact. However, making broad generalized statements about folks who follow a particular faith is prejudicial and counterproductive.

So, if there is nothing else to add regarding kamidanas in our dojos, perhaps it is time to close this thread.

Unless of course anybody feels the overwhelming need to be purposely inflammatory for their own entertainment.....

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

John Lindsey
27th June 2001, 17:45
In closing, I just want to say that I thought Jeff raised a valid question. I am sorry that a few people got carried away here, but that is what can happen on a bulletin board. As requested, I will close this thread...