Marathon Monks?

[Kit LeBlanc]

A friend recently told me he heard a radio program about a certain sect of Japanese monks who put themselves through a nearly impossible regime of daily marathon hiking or running. The training sounded incredibly grueling, and apparently only 43 men in history have fully completed it.

My friend said he thought it may be a sect related to Mt. Hiei.

Does anyone know of this group? I remember seeing a book some time ago by John Stevens which may have been about this group, but a search at Amazon leads me to "Mountain Tasting," which may be the book I saw but does not sound like the "marathon monks."

Help me out, someone?

Kit

[Joseph Svinth]

Kit --

Try http://www.millennium-tv.com/monks.html .

[Kit LeBlanc]

JOE,

Thanks, man. I guess I should have just done a search for "marathon monks."

Kit

[Blues]

I once saw a documentary on National Geographic Channel about a 'marathon monk'. I don't remember exactly what his task was but I think he was supposed to walk a certain distance every day, for 1000 days. On his final day a couple of Japanese camera crews were following him.

[Jeff Hamacher]

thank you, Joseph, for the weblink. the blurb seemed compelling enough, but i find it hard to believe that every comment was an absolutely true representation of the practice which the programme documented.

i realize that this group is but one sect (and perhaps even one subgroup of one sect) within the whole of japanese Buddhism, so their rites may be vastly different from those of other sects. still, the idea that any kind of intentional act would bring about one's awakening seems to run counter to the basic tenets of Buddhist thought. you cannot make yourself a Buddha through action, at least not according to the sources i've read. and what about respect for all life, including your own? i can't believe a Buddhist would commit themself to ritual suicide for failing to pass a worldly test; the self-immolation demonstrations during the Vietnam War or monks in South Korea engaging in violent protest against police also surprise me, but then perhaps those monks understood much, much better than i do the nature of their faith.

of course, many rites are designed as methods or "skilful means" to help the practioner realize their enlightenment. the website blurb wasn't far off when it spoke about the "marathon" as a way for the monks to experience living in the "Eternal Now", and the practice of begging for alms is perhaps a way to understand the casting off of convention which is essential to one's awakening.

i didn't want to drag the thread too far off-topic, but as i said the programme description seemed at least a bit misleading. the idea that these "national heros" have a significant effect on the behaviour of the average japanese person is less true than the fact that most japanese act according to social convention which is sooner Confucian than Buddhist in origin. looking forward to any insights from other members.

cheers, jeff hamacher

[Joseph Svinth]

Media hype is media hype. The folks can't help themselves. Meanwhile, the inspiration for that documentary seems to have been John Stevens' book...

As for long-distance walking, note that the monks' pace suggests an average pace of about 5 miles per hour (about 8 kph) for 12-13 hours a day. Most healthy teens and adults could maintain that pace following 2-4 months of preparation. With practice, the same walkers could also carry loads of 40-70 lbs at the same time. (Witness military units and Sherpas.) Whether the walker achieves satori, fitness, or simply employment is something that each individual has to decide for him/herself.

World record paces include the Greek guy who walked across Australia in a thousand hours.

[jion]

I'd urge caution in evaluating this form of ascetic practice (what we call the Sennichi Kaihogyo; or "Thousand-Day Circumambulation Practice"). The website mentioned does little to point to the deeper nature of this means.

[Kit LeBlanc]

Jion,

Perhaps you might be the one to best answer this question.

Jeff mentions to the concept of "skillful means" in Buddhism. In different readings I have done (and I am not sure if even the writers really knew what they were talking about) it seems that many divergent types of practices can be viewed as "skillful means," including ones which might not at first sound like the are appropriately "Buddhist," as in certain Tantric practices.

So what really does "skillful means" imply and how can these divergent practices be related as such, or lead to enlightenment?

Kit

[MarkF]

Preserving the essence is certainly one hell 'uv a "skillful means."

Mark

"Once you go 'tantric' you can never go back."
-A Tantric practitioner

Mark

[Jeff Hamacher]

Originally posted by jion
I'd urge caution in evaluating this form of ascetic practice (what we call the Sennichi Kaihogyo; or "Thousand-Day Circumambulation Practice"). The website mentioned does little to point to the deeper nature of this means.
my apologies, Jion, if my post seemed critical. my real intention was to question the contents of the TV website, and as Joe has already pointed out, it's not as though the media can be trusted to satisfy themselves with the plain truth. i suppose that if i was truly asking questions in order to be informed i would have expressed them in a different way. i have taken a brief look at your linked website; i'm certain that others, myself included, would be interested to know more about the true nature of the practice which is the topic of this thread, if you would be so kind as to post. looking forward to hearing from you.

cheers, jeff hamacher

[P Goldsbury]

A sensitive and well-researched study of such ascetic practices can be found in Carmen Blacker's 'The Catalpa Bow: A Study of Shamanistic Practices in Japan' (ISBN: 0-04-398006-6). The book covers a lot more ground than the title suggests.

Peter Goldsbury,
____________
Graduate School of Social Sciences,
Hiroshima University

[joe yang]

My sah bum nihm sometimes tells us a story about his grandfather. The elder Mr. Kim was the village Chinese scholar. Sometime in his eighties he undertook a "hundred days journey" was how Master Kim put it in English. The purpose was to hike to the top of a neighboring mountain and back every day for a hundred days, without missing a day. Master Kim did not emphasis the hardship so much, as the discipline and dedication of fullfilling the self imposed obligation, everyday, in every weather, regardless of sickness or health. It was suppossed to be more about spiritual growth and not neccessarily physically impossible at all.

joe yang

[jion]

Dear Jeff & Others-

Actually, it's great to know that a genuine interest in the practices of the Tendai School exists. Although in the recent past, it's been rather difficult to obtain genuine info concerning actual Buddhist practices, the Sennichi Kaihogyo method as practiced on Mount Hiei seems to have drawn enough attention to warrent a closer look by the West.

Whatever factual or reference material I can offer, sure, I'd be glad although of course without practical experience in the method, we're only gazing from the outer edges, though often not a bad place to start. Shall look forward to comments.

[Spasemunki]

Kit- (and anyone else interested)
Skillful means can refer to a lot of things in Buddhism. In general, skillful means refers to the ability of a powerful or highly-realized being (a Buddha or Bodhisssatva) to employ various tactics to help others along the way to enlightenment. The thousand arms of the Bodhissattva Avalokiteshvara are said to represent his/her skillful means in leading others.

All well and good. But what are they, really? Well, implicit in the claim that some being or the other has 'skillful means' is the idea that they possess a deep insight into human nature, and the ability to assess the state of mind and dispositions of another being. With this ability, they can concoct what action is most likely to bring the other being towards enlightenment. This means what actually qualifies as 'skillful means' is as varied as individuals. For a person with little discipline, maybe a very strict course of emphasizing the importance of the observation of the precepts and monastic rules is most important. For a person who is of a very constrained and and clinging character, they must be freed from their attatchment to rules, regulations, and 'correct' ways of doing things before they can come to equilibrium. For such a person, as odd as it may sound, a regimin of 'rule breaking' may be in order.

Of course, this is a gross simplification of the many levels in which the idea operates on. The cannonical example is the teachings of the Buddha himself, particularly as recorded in the Pali Cannon. In different instances, to different individuals, the Buddha teaches different aspects of the path, or selectively chooses to refuse answers to certain questions. This came from the understanding of the human mind that he had obtained.

In the Zen tradition, 'skillful means' were often attributed to one Zen teacher or another. Their often unexplainable actions and attitudes are said to have been a product of their skillful means in dealing with particular students. Some students need a clear explanation of concept. Some need to be told that they shouldn't ask so many questions. Some need a smack on the back of the head. The important thing is that (in theory) the method employed as a 'skillful mean' must be motivated by compassion for the one who receives it.

So how's jogging a skillful mean? Well, depends on how the jogging is undertaken, the outlook of the runner, and the effect of the running on his mind. I would imagine that for a certain personality type, this sort of continuous physical exertion provides a certain sort of clarity. It doubtlessly improves one's mindfulness of the body. And, it is, in its own way, a -spiritual trial by fire. In the Zen tradition, commenting on the koan practice, it was often said that understanding came only when rational thought had been cast aside, and when the mind had reached a point of crisis. The purpose of the koan was to foster the great doubt and struggle that would give rise to the point of crisis that would bring about revelation. This sort of physical trial could serve a similar purpose. There are a lot of other aspects to a commitment like this as well- the dedication to finish the task, and the mental tenacity required to keep returning to it, time after time.

And besides- think of what a walk in the park just having to sit and breathe would be after something like this? Puts a new perspective on the rest of the monk's 'austere' life ;)

[Kit LeBlanc]

Clay,

Great post!

[George Ledyard]

The whole reason that "expedient means" are thought be necessary is that Ultimate Realization is beyond description because it is based on direct experience of the Truth which is beyond words and logical thought.

So if the truth is not to be described how can there be hundreds of volumes in the Buddhist Canon? Because all these writings are an example of Upaya or "expedient means". In fact all methods for teaching of the Truth, are by necessity, an example of "expedient means". (Although in Soto Zen there is some discussion of zazen being inseparable from Elightenment, so in that sense it isn't just expedient)

But as noted above, the underlying assumption is that the person utilizing the expedient means is Enlightened and therefore capable of doing this skillfully. This is where things have gone wrong for Buddhists in the past because in the hands of an unqualified or unscrupulous teacher all sorts of abuses get put forth as expedient means. That is why there is such a strong emphasis on Direct Transmission in Buddhism so that only a person that has been trained and certified by a recognized Teacher can turn around and set up shop so to speak.

[Jeff Hamacher]

Originally posted by George Ledyard
(Although in Soto Zen there is some discussion of zazen being inseparable from Enlightenment, so in that sense it isn't just expedient)
my understanding of zazen is that it is "sitting just to sit" and that the sitting posture does not have any particular significance in terms of one's Enlightenment; if one places importance on a posture then this represents the mind's attachment to form which will prevent the realization of Enlightenment. perhaps the posture, breathing, and ritual are types of expedients, but some sources may suggest otherwise.

the underlying assumption is that the person utilizing the expedient means is Enlightened and therefore capable of doing this skillfully.
again, my understanding of "skilful means" is a set of expedients used by the unenlightened to attain Enlightenment.
if the only ones capable of using "expedient means" are already enlightened then how are those who have yet to reach Enlightenment to use them? do you mean to say that only the enlightened teacher understands how to introduce such means to the unenlightened student?

please understand that i have read sources which appear to disagree with your comments above and so i present them here in order to stimulate further discussion. it is not my intent to criticize your understanding or point of view. i look forward to reading more from everyone.

[SBreheney]

My teacher emphasizes that there is nothing intrinsically holy about the posture of zazen -- lest the idea that a certain posture is "better" become an excuse for not sitting, as in "I could never sit like *that* . . . ." Whenever that particular issue comes up, we are reminded to work with the bodies we have, not the bodies we *think* we have or don't have. Which is not to say that not working on it is acceptable either.

It just happens that the zazen posture of sitting on the floor with gently extended spine, legs in one manner or another (full-lotus or other variations), while offering some challenges for the person new to zazen practice, is the most stable posture the human body can take for extended periods of time. And if you quiet the body, you quiet the breath, and you quiet the mind.

Just my two cents' worth. Cheers.

Sean M. Breheney
Pacific Grove, CA