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Gil Gillespie
26th June 2001, 05:24
I've heard different stories on this over the years, but I'm interested in your thoughts. Why do we use no tsuba on our bokken in aikiken?

Mike Collins
26th June 2001, 05:57
I've never given it a lot of thought. I suppose it's not there cause control counts for more in the Aikido context than speed or ferocity, so if you've gotta be aware of your hand placement with regards ma ai, you will develop control and awareness more quickly.

I'm curious what theories you've heard.

It's funny, I've seen some teachers grab a bokken pretty haphazardly with regards to the "blade" and I've one teacher who teaches carefully not wrapping your fingers around the bokken like a bat, but holding it between your little finger and thumb as if your hand were a crabs claw, almost. Teaches great extension out the tegatana, with continuous practice.

But I've never felt even competent with a bokken or jo. I've learned a lot of stuff from several teachers, but never went deeply enough to understand much of principles of weapons work. Hard to find and stay with the right teacher.

George Ledyard
26th June 2001, 13:56
Originally posted by Gil Gillespie
I've heard different stories on this over the years, but I'm interested in your thoughts. Why do we use no tsuba on our bokken in aikiken?

Actually I think that most of Saotome Sensei's students are using tsuba at this point. We didn't in the old days more because they weren't readily available than for any other reason. I know that one of the first white oak bokken that Kiyota Company offered was basically built to Saotome Sensei's specs.

I would say that all of my own students use tsuba even if it's just the cheezy plastic ones that come with the red oak bokken (on the theory that some protection is better than none). I know that the first time I cracked a tsuba right off my sword was when I decided I wasn't going back to the no tsuba alternative.

Gil Gillespie
26th June 2001, 16:15
As far as offering protection I was also told that the tsuba protects the swordsman's hands from sliding onto his own blade, rather than from the clash of opposing swords. This was why they are so often delicately wrought as art objects. True?

Whenever I see phots of O -Sensei his bokken has no tsuba. Still wondering.

FastEd
26th June 2001, 16:49
(my opinion) Not true. Soft metal tsube look nice on court swords, but the daily drivers used iron/(steel?) tusba, and there are plenty of examples in museums.

(logically) The tsuba is the only thing protecting your wrist in chudan. I have not conducted any imperical tests, but I would hypothisize that, from jodan, I would be able to cut well into a copper/silver tsuba, to a point where I would be able to inflict significant damage to your right wrist. I'm am assuming an average tsuba thickness of around 0.5 cm.

Am I out to lunch here, or no???

Mike Collins
26th June 2001, 18:22
How's this for a theory?:

If one has a tsuba, they may be tempted (wisely or not) to use it to defend themselves.

If one has no protection, they're forced to use body placement and maai to defend themselves. This seems to be the more "aiki" response.

Just a thought.

Chad Bruttomesso
27th June 2001, 00:34
To agree with Mr. Ledyard, YES, USE TSUBA. I too have cracked a tsuba clean in two. Basically, if I hadn't have had the tsuba I probably wouldn't be able to write this reply as quickly.

Basically, training is for making mistakes and learning. Combat/battle is where you have to put up or shut up. Therefore in training train with enough verve and vigor to learn the techniques correctly. In addition, since we don't study Aikido for the sake of entering into combat I have always sought out people who were willing to put a little bit of extra effort into their training. In conjunction with having rather vigorous training sessions I am not the most coordinated of people. Without a Tsuba on my sword I wouldn't be able to train in this manner and with this intent.

I believe that a sword has a Tsuba for a reason. Who am I to say, "Ah, I don't need that. I will be fine without it"? Take a look at the people who train with Bokken/bokuto on a regular basis in martial arts that focus on the sword. Do they use a tsuba or not? What I am trying to say is that in Aikido we use a bokuto differently and with different intent than those martial arts that are nothing but using the sword. Since I have decided to look to the experts for guidance on this and do what they do I will continue to use a tsuba without fail.

Rant over. Thanks for listening.

Sincerely,

Mike Collins
27th June 2001, 00:53
Tsuba, or not Tsuba... That is the question.

Whether tis nobler to endure the tsukis and shomen of a thousand aite's or to avoid contact at all.

chrisinbrasil
27th June 2001, 01:14
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.... HAHAHAHAHA... HA.
That was funny Mike.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Rennis
27th June 2001, 03:03
Many, if not most, Koryu don't use tsuba on their bokuto either. While I have heard no "official" explainations on this, you should consider historical context. In old Japan, making tsuba for bokuto would be rather difficult. On most of the old bokuto with tsuba I have seen, the tsuba is big clumsy and wood, which it isn't all that strong when we are talking tsuba. Making a normal bokuto isn't all that hard, and you can still basically do everything you need to do training-wise with one. Making you with a tsuba requires much more effort for a weapon that is basically disposable in the first place, so I suspect many schools just didn't bother with them. If they had alot of potential wrist smacking training going on, they might develop some sort of kote, like Itto ryu and, I believe, some lines of Jigen ryu.

One thing leads to another, and schools develop their own traditional bokuto shapes (which don't have tsuba) and no one ever really thinks about it anymore. Even in Ueshiba sensei's time, I don't think ready made tsuba were available, and in addition, people were still pretty conservation at that time and wouldn't really see the point with messing with their training weapons which had worked just fine up until that point anyways. I personally suspect the reason most Aikido-types don't use tsuba on their bokuto is simply due to the "norm" than any specific decision. My suspicion is that comments like "it develops hand awareness" and such are rationalizations after the fact.

Of course I could just plain be wrong too.
Rennis Buchner

Ilgenfritz
27th June 2001, 14:13
With my "very limited experience" I have made this observation. I study Aikido so I have been exposed to Iwama Ryu. Iwama Ryu, I believe is focussed on teaching the practitioner Aiki Form. Were I study, the tsuba is left off. I believe it may be so our focus is more on timing, blending, control, and body placement/movement. So it is practice more for the sake of learning Aikido than Sword. Recently I have started being exposed to Iaido, Batto, Kashima. Although you may learn Aikido form from these arts, I believe it is a byproduct, the focus is truly on the sword itself and the tsuba is definitely required. I think that whether or not a tsuba is used depends on what is being taught.

Am I way off base on this?
Chuck

27th June 2001, 21:26
Guys,

Interesting historical tidbit. I have seen and held Takeda Sokaku's bokuto. It has a tsuba. Katsuyuki Kondo was very polite in offering it to me during a visit to his home in 1994

There are many sword techniques that require a tsuba for proper form and application of technique. In TSYR a tsuba is really required as tsubazeriai is frequently used. I agree with the gentlemen from Iwama who recognized the aiki ken is whole different animal from kenjutsu. Not necessarily a better animal , just a different one.

So..if the sword is made of steel and is sharp and you want to keep your pinkies / hand.. I think a tsuba is required.

If your a student of aiki ken, maybe not. Thats up to your instructor.

Toby Threadgill

George Ledyard
2nd July 2001, 09:41
Originally posted by Mike Collins
How's this for a theory?:

If one has a tsuba, they may be tempted (wisely or not) to use it to defend themselves.

If one has no protection, they're forced to use body placement and maai to defend themselves. This seems to be the more "aiki" response.

Just a thought.

Just out of curiosity... What is inherently less "aiki" about allowing an incoming blade to slide down ones own blade and deflect off the tsuba leaving the tip at the attacker's throat rather than deflecting the incoming stike with the blade itself with the same end result?

Mike Collins
6th July 2001, 00:36
Good question. I don't know. I am by no means competent to critique styles or principles of sword. I was merely theorizing, and I'm fully capable of being wrong.

But are you saying to let the attacker's sword actually make contact with the tsuba at something like a 90 degree angle? Or is the defender angling already and the attackers sword gets more of a glancing contact with the tsuba? If the latter is the case I don't know whether or not it's less aiki, but is the timing correct? It "seems" late to me, no?

And if you're setting the attacker up for a glancing blow, isn't that proper use of maai and body movement more than using the tsuba as a kind of a mini shield?

If you mean the former, then that does seem less of a blend.

But as I said, I'm a pretty empty cup in this arena.

Chris Guzik
6th July 2001, 16:14
I'm not sure I'd want to rely on my tsuba to directly block an oncoming strike. However, it certainly could help in maintaining a connection with my partner, especially considering that I still have a long way to go when it comes to getting the angle of my blade right so that I can deflect and blend rather than pushing and clashing. At this point for me any additional tactile feedback seems helpful...

While I don't normally use a tsuba, I did notice that most of the folks at the ASU summer camp in Washington DC last week did use them. And there did seem to be times when they were helpful, not just in protecting the fingers but also to simply maintain contact through situations where, not having a tsuba, I would have been inclined to disconnect.

As an aside, Ikeda Sensei announced last week that for those who do use tsuba, Bu Jin now carries a weapons bag that can accomodate bokken with tsuba, so you don't have to remove it every time. There is even padding to prevent the tsuba from digging into your back when carrying the bag. Quite nice...

George Ledyard
6th July 2001, 21:29
Originally posted by Mike Collins

But are you saying to let the attacker's sword actually make contact with the tsuba at something like a 90 degree angle? Or is the defender angling already and the attackers sword gets more of a glancing contact with the tsuba? If the latter is the case I don't know whether or not it's less aiki, but is the timing correct? It "seems" late to me, no?

And if you're setting the attacker up for a glancing blow, isn't that proper use of maai and body movement more than using the tsuba as a kind of a mini shield?

If you mean the former, then that does seem less of a blend.


In this particular technique you allow the on-coming attacker to intitiate his cut, then at the last possible moment you thrust through the cut to the attacker's throat. The blades are not quite parallel but there isn't enough deflection via blade contact to make the cut go wide so the attacker's blade slides along the defender's until it hits the tsuba. The tsuba is round so as the attacker's blade makes contact it deflects off thereby missing the hand.

Because it is a deflection technique it does allow you wait until the very last second to execute the thrust which makes it very difficult for the attacker to counter.

Mike Collins
6th July 2001, 22:08
Thanks.

I have seen that particular technique, even practiced something like it (a slightly greater angle to prevent getting my pinkies bashed), I just don't do enough swordwork to really understand the importance of similarities yet.

Techniques are very complex and difficult until you understand what makes them work, huh? Then they get almost unimportant. I'm still at the "this foot goes here, that hand goes there" stage of weapons work.

Dojorat
13th July 2001, 18:39
Greetins,

You must understand, I don't know any of the answers but I'm told it's a sign of progress when you begin to understand which are the right questions to ask...

It seems we're asking two questions here....

First, what is the purpose of a tsuba and...
Second, why is it not used in many, if not the majority of, Aikiken applications.

Wrt the first... has anyone here ever done a lot of meatcutting/butchering/field dressing? You tend to get a lot of "stuff" running down the blade and over your hand. The stuff is messy, slimy and, if you're not careful, it can negatively affect your ability to control the blade. This may explain why chiburi (removing blood and other pieces/parts from the blade) is an integral part of many sword techniques/kata. Might the tsuba also be useful in keeping the sword hand(s) and grip cleaner, drier and tighter?

Another plausibility is the mechanics of thrusting. Those of you with live blades. Thrust into some suitable target. Does the increase in resistance provided by the target increase the pressure of your right index knuckle/finger against the tsuba. If that tsuba weren't there, would your grip be tight enough to prevent your right hand from sliding up the blade much to the detriment of your piano career?

I admit I'm not at all well versed in weaponry but, with the exception of the Roman Gladius, I'm hard pressed to think of another short handled long edged thrusting/slashing weapon (ie sword) that doesn't have some sort of hilt or cross piece separating the handle from the blade. The large examples of such hand guards on European blades speak volumes as to the purpose and practicality of such an addition.

However, the use of Kote (Glove and Gauntlet) in Kendo speaks volumes as to the utility of tsuba for protecting the hand and wrist from a opponent's weapon.

Which brings to mind a question on using tsuba on bokken. How does it affect your ability to maintain a proper distance between the hands when gripping the tsuka? For me, unless I'm using one of the Bugei Company style bokken with a longer handle (closer to that of a shinai), I find my hands somewhat cramped together. Here again, if you're not hitting or cutting anything "solid" the affect on your ability to control the tip with proper leverage is not really evident.

So many questions, so little time...

Cheers,

Nathan Scott
16th August 2001, 22:34
Hello,

I guess I'm coming to this discussion a bit late, but FWIW...

Most ryu-ha I've seen that use bokken tend to not include a tsuba on their bokken.

The primary purpose of a tsuba on a real Japanese sword is to protect the hand from sliding down over the blade, as pointed out by someone else. However there are some arts that employ techniques that use the opponents tsuba to control their weapon (such as Tendo ryu), in which case tsubas are necessary.

Since bokkens are not used for real cutting and real thrusting (on targets), in which excessive "liquids" may be introduced to the hilt, it is not necessary to install a tsuba on them - at least not for the same reasons they are used for live blades.

However, most instructors I know are open minded to students using tsuba on bokken if they wish, since they are useful for protecting the fingers from sloppy technique from either side. Advanced students tend not to get hit on the fingers, so often times do not bother installing tsubas. Personally, I just like the feel of them anyway without a tsuba.

As Rennis-san mentioned, bokken used for contact have a pretty limited life too. Traditional tsuba are made of thick wood, or more recently thick cowhide, secured in place with resin impregnated asa (hemp twine). A bit expensive and a pain to deal with if tsuba are not necessary to the techniques being used.

Furthermore, adding wood or cowhide tsuba will change the balance of the bokken significantly, often times for the worse.

So, assuming your teacher does not object, if you are concerned with getting your fingers smashed or your style utilizes the tsuba in some of the techniques, perhaps consider using a tsuba or even picking up a set of fukuro shinai (split bamboo covered sparring shinai). If your style does not have free/pre-arranged sparring sequences, or you are confident of your technique, maybe you'll prefer not to use one.

If you do use a tsuba for finger protection though, I would urge you to pick up a thick cowhide one or something more substantial than the crappy plastic ones that come with some bokken. The white rubber gasket can still be used to secure the tsuba for those that don't want to hassle with permanently attached tsubas.

BTW, the fingers and kote are very popular targets in classical kenjutsu. Using the tsuba as a way to deflect/control and incoming attack is taking a pretty big risk if the attacker is looking for your fingers, IMHO.

HTH - sorry for the length,

Pavel Rott
18th August 2001, 18:05
Dojorat,
kazak troops in Russia used a saber without hilt. Check out a picture here (http://practic.hunter.ru/NOGI/SWORD/3.htm). I have to add though that it is a weapon for a horse-mounted troops, thus mainly for cutting.