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Michael Becker
4th July 2000, 21:09
My question is this: How difficult is it to MASTER more than one Ryu-ha?

I have read that it is a very difficult undertaking to attempt to learn more than one Ryu-ha and yet some teachers claim to be Soke of several traditions.

I would be grateful to read the views of those with some experience in Ryu-ha.

Jason Backlund
5th July 2000, 01:58
Mr. Becker,

Many bushi (especially those just previous to and during the Edo period) spent a great deal of time trying to learn as much as they could. As the role of the bushi became more and more codified, it was believed that there were essential weapons and empty hand techniques that a bushi must learn - daito, shoto, yari, naginata, kusarigama, yoroi kumiai, etc.

However, as the use of these techniques were needed less and less, the chances of finding a teacher who could teach all of them also decreased (although there are a few comprehensive systems still in existence). This led to bushi studying several different ryu in order to get an expanded education. However, for the most part, very few bushi were deeply concerned with mastering these ryu, at least not by our standards of mastery. In an age when people think that you need to try and attain mastery in a martial art, I tell my students that very few people go to college to get PhDs in their respective fields (most students just get BA and BS degrees and get to work).

Am I equating a college degree to the ancient techniques studied by the mystical warriors of the Orient? Yes! And throughout history, most bushi thought the same way. In essence, it was tell me what I need to know to stay alive on the battlefield. They learned more when they needed to know more, and rarely just for the sake of doing so. In trying to attain mastery, we are following examples set by only a very few figures in the history of Nihon bujutsu (like Miyamoto Musashi). But, then again, anything worth doing is worth doing right, eh?

As far as mastering a ryu is concerned, you are not just talking about techniques, but about the histories, teachings, and traditions of what is basically a family. If that is your desire, then you need to put all of your energy into the one ryu of choice. Having said that, don't be afraid to dabble. It's difficult to find schools that will accept you training part time, so you'll really have to dive in for a couple of years. But remember, being part of a ryu means understanding chu (loyalty), and you should devote the bulk of your time and loyalty to the one ryu that you have decided to master.

As for people who are 'soke' of more than one ryu- very difficult. However, there are traditions and organizations that teach more than one 'specialized' ryu. I would say it could be possible, within a single tradition, to be soke of say, for example, Nihon ryu sojutsu, and Honshu ryu kenjutsu
if somewhere down the line, one family was responsible for taking care of these systems (each of which would be rather specialized) However, other cases of more comprehensive systems would seem highly unlikely to the extreme. The only other way would be if this Soke created one of the ryu himself/herself.

Just my opinion though.

Good luck.

Jason Backlund
Kobushin Kai
Yamagata Ryu Bujutsu, Matsubara Ryu Bujutsu

Byron Quick
14th July 2000, 03:11
It probably depends on your definition of mastery. From available evidence it seems that mastery might have had a less exalted definition in the 1500's and 1600's in Japan than it does today. There are recorded instances of people in the late 1500's receiving menkyo kaiden in a ryu-ha in six months. Granted that most of these were people who were already recognized as awesome warriors but even so would it hold up to what we recognize as "mastery" today? It seems to me that the Japanese of that period had a definition of mastery more in line with our craftsmen's designation of journeyman plumber and master plumber. They were working men doing a job not mystics looking for the ultimate cosmic debris:)

Neil Hawkins
14th July 2000, 05:13
I don't want to start any flame wars or upset any people, but you don't have to go that far back to find people that 'mastered' a ryu in a relatively short period.

There are quite a few in the last 100 years (some still alive today) who recieved their Menkyo in 5 years or less.

Generally speaking, in olden times the schools taught what would equate to todays military skills, much more that 6 - 12 months and you didn't have time to learn it before you were expected to go to war. The physical skills were taught easily in that time frame. It wasn't until Tokugawa that the schools started to expand and deapen their training.

Regards

Neil

Earl Hartman
14th July 2000, 17:57
Awa Kenzo,the kyudo teacher of Eugen Herrigel (the author of Zen In the Art of Archery) began training in Heki Ryu Sekka-ha kyujutsu at the age of 21 and received menkyo kaiden in only two years.

My teacher's teacher, Urakami Sakae Hanshi, began training in Heki To Ryu kyujutsu at the age of 10 (in 1892) under the tutelage of his father, Urakami Naooki. He received his menkyo in 1912 (at the age of 30) from Tokuyama Katsuyata Hanshi of Okayama, the headmaster of the school. He received the rank of Hanshi from the Dai Nippon Butokukai in 1927 (at the age of 45). In modern kyudo receiving a Hanshi (master) ranking at such a young age is unheard of.

I think a number of things are at work here:

1) A menkyo kaiden obviously meant something different then than it does today,
2) People practiced a lot harder then than they do now, for sure,
3) Each ryu had different standards whereas today the modern organizations have a unified standard,
4) There was undoubtedly a far heavier emphasis on practical skill in the past than there is today, where certain "intangibles" are given far more emphasis. Once practical skill in fighting became less important, other things fill that gap.

Earl


[Edited by Earl Hartman on 07-14-2000 at 03:14 PM]

hyaku
15th July 2000, 10:06
Originally posted by Michael Becker
My question is this: How difficult is it to MASTER more than one Ryu-ha?

I have read that it is a very difficult undertaking to attempt to learn more than one Ryu-ha and yet some teachers claim to be Soke of several traditions.

I would be grateful to read the views of those with some experience in Ryu-ha.

Doesn't quite figure to me, as most important is a lifetimes devotion to ones own teacher.
This is usually taken into account in addition to the experience of the recipient.

Iwata Sensei MJER wrote a letter last month. He said that in performing Mohan Engi at this years Kyoto Taikai he felt for the first time in his life that the embu was performed with "Mushin ". Considering the fact that he is 87 one could say that receiving a title that has been handed down is one thing. However mastery is something else.

Hyakutake Colin http://www.bunbun.ne.jp/~sword