Jigoro Kano and O'sensei

[taino1]

Hello,

I know this topic has probably been discussed previously, but could someone provide some insights into the relationship between Jigoro Kano and O'sensei? How they met, what things they had in common, did they practice together, why they exchanged students etc..

Thanks in advance..

[Yamantaka]

Originally posted by taino1
Hello,
I know this topic has probably been discussed previously, but could someone provide some insights into the relationship between Jigoro Kano and O'sensei? How they met, what things they had in common, did they practice together, why they exchanged students etc..
Thanks in advance..

YAMANTAKA :
About your questions :
a) I do not think they did have much in common. Kano Sensei watched aikido demonstrations and he liked them. He tried to invite Ueshiba Morihei O to the Kodokan but Ueshiba Sensei refused his invitation;
b) they never practiced together; and
c) they never "exchanged" students. It was a "one-way road". Kano Sensei sent students to the Kobukan but Ueshiba Sensei never sent any students to the Kodokan.
AFAIK

[MarkF]

It may have been a one way road, but Kano never "sent" anyone. Instead, he recommended that students grow and that some who were outstanding needed to move on, one case in point, Tomiki Kenji. Tomiki never wasn't "sent away from the Kodokan, but was simply encouraged to move on. He always came back, though, as the Kodokan was his home. In the final of Kodokan kata taught today, Tomiki was asked to help, and he did without question, and he did so, as so many others had done.

But no, did Ueshiba "send" any students as Kano "sent" students? Not a one, as far as anyone can tell. But then Ueshiba Morihei-sensei said that the student who stays for six months will be around for a long time. But how long after the six month interval, I still don't have a clue. It is another of those mysterious answers to questions he gave, in one particular interview, he gave his knowledge of how he knew who would be the serious student.

And it is even a more mysterious subject today, as some stick around for ten years or longer only to quit training all together.

Amazing I think is the word, for if one left some dojo today, they would not be allowed back in. Now that is a mystery for ya.
******

As to the different styles being taught at the Kodokan even today, many have come and gone, no one was "banished" and was always welcomed back. Seems that those who came and stayed, at least back at the turn of the century, 1895 through 1910, brought lots of fine technique with them, helping the Kodokan grow into one of the most complex syllabus' in any martial art. I'm not speaking of the four tokuiwaza some have, but for the entire syllabus, and how it has evolved even as late as 1997.

OK, OK, some waza such as ippon seioi nage which has been done almost unchanged since forever, just lately has been recognized as a separate technique from other shoulder throws instead of a variation, but for Kodokan judo, a century is breaking the KPH mile per hour laws.;)

Mark

[Yamantaka]

Originally posted by MarkF
It may have been a one way road, but Kano never "sent" anyone.

YAMANTAKA : As I said before, AFAIK (As far as I know)...Anyway, a quick perusal through the Internet brought forth those :

#########################################
" http://www.honors.montana.edu/~reeker/aikido/his_tomiki.html :

KENJI TOMIKI
Kenji Tomiki started Judo at age ten and was highly competitive through-out his life. Tomiki's Judo Sensei told him of Ueshiba and of his "new"art, and he suggested to Tomiki to broaden his horizons and try this Aikido out.

www.aikidojournal.com :

MOCHIZUKI, MINORU
(b. 1907). 10th dan IMAF. Began judo training at age five and entered the KODOKAN in 1925. He was sent to study with Morihei UESHIBA in 1930 by Jigoro KANO.

KANO, JIGORO
(1860-1938). Founder of judo. He observed a demonstration by Morihei UESHIBA in October 1930 and, highly impressed, dispatched several of his high-ranking judoka including Minoru MOCHIZUKI to study with Ueshiba. Kano also strongly influenced Kenji TOMIKI.

http://www.arts-traditionnels.com/maitres/sugino_y.html :

YOSHIO SUGINO :
In 1930, Kano Sensei decided to invite to his Kobuko Kenkyukai section at the Kodokan, the master of a mysterious and wonderful art called Daito-Ryu Aikijujutsu, called Morihei Ueshiba. But Ueshiba didn’t want to come to the Kodokan. So, Kano Sensei sent some of his young students to train at Ueshiba’s dojo, among them Mochizuki and Sugino.
#######################################


[i] Tomiki never wasn't "sent away from the Kodokan, but was simply encouraged to move on. He always came back, though, as the Kodokan was his home.
As to the different styles being taught at the Kodokan even today, many have come and gone, no one was "banished" and was always welcomed back.
Mark [/B]

YAMANTAKA : As for this and other observations you did about other things, I'd invite you to read again the previous posts. Nowhere was it stated that anybody was "sent away", "banished" or anything like that. To be sent as an emissary or an ambassador to study Aikibudo and then bring it back to the Kodokan definitely does NOT imply being "banished" from the Kodokan. Where did you get that idea???:confused:
I believe you were thinking on other things and put your ideas in here, my friend.
Best
:wave:

[taino1]

Folks,

Thanks for the great replies!!!

[Yamantaka]

Originally posted by taino1
Folks,
Thanks for the great replies!!!

YAMANTAKA : There's a very interesting comparison between Jigoro Kano, Gichin Funakoshi and Morihei Ueshiba in "3 BUDO MASTERS" by John Stevens. You might get the book through www.amazon.com or www.bn.com
Best

[PRehse]

Tomiki was never specifically sent to Ueshiba by Kano.

The introduction to Ueshiba was through Hidetaro Nishimura, one of his friends at the Waseda University Judo Club. Kano knew Ueshiba and encouraged Tomiki to continue training with him.

By the way, even today promising students are sent to other masters as sort of a finsihing school. Cross-training did not really exist - it was after all budo. Kano was interested in preserving the ancient styles and Ueshiba was a conduit to that - to have someone like Tomiki study with Ueshiba would be seen as a good thing.

[MarkF]

That was simply a joke, or a cynical look at some of today's "new martial arts."
******

As to whether anyone was "sent" anywhere, I still don't buy the term, it has been misused since the first student came to the Kodokan, then was urged to grow. What the books say are modern versions of how the Kodokan judoka were treated when Kano-sensei was still "the man" at the Kodokan. He was a figurehead by 1930, and some from the old days commented on what they saw.

Kano simply was not that harsh, not after a student endured and he had the perception to see who needed refinement. Only then did he recommend one seek out knowledge from other sources. Some left on their own accord, to learn to swim and learn the art of the bow. Even here, his old judogi is in the Kodokan Museum (Saigo Shiro).

Was he "sent away" to learn then teach people to swim? Well, Kano is "The father of Japanese Sports."

Mark

[Yamantaka]

Originally posted by MarkF

As to whether anyone was "sent" anywhere, I still don't buy the term, it has been misused since the first student came to the Kodokan, then was urged to grow.
Kano simply was not that harsh, not after a student endured and he had the perception to see who needed refinement. Only then did he recommend one seek out knowledge from other sources.
Was he "sent away" to learn then teach people to swim? Well, Kano is "The father of Japanese Sports."
Mark

YAMANTAKA : If the term has been misused, it wasn't here. It was made quite clear, from the very beginning, that those students weren't "BANISHED" or anything "HARSH" like that on the part of Kano. They were sent TO a place, for "furthering their refinement", not sent away FROM a place...And even if we admit that Tomiki Sensei wasn't sent by Kano Sensei, considering their life-long links, undoubtedly Kano Sensei gave his blessings to Tomiki's quest, don't you think? After all, one of his most famous books is called "JUDO (Appendix Aikido)". That says quite a lot as to the importance he gave to Judo.
We shouldn't continue on that point...:nono:
Best regards :toast:

[Gil Gillespie]

All quibbling over definitions and prepositions aside, Minoru Mochizuki Sensei has been quoted as saying he was sent by Kano to study with Ueshiba. He further maintains that they were the finest budoka and the finest two men he ever knew. Mochizuki Sensei, now in his 90's and living in France with his son, is founder of Yoseikan Budo, a composite art made of judo, karate, jujutsu and aikido. On the shomen wall of the hombu dojo in Shizuoka, Japan are 8 x 10 photos of Kano and Ueshiba. In the tokonoma itself is a grotesque "dragon head" of driftwood with gold Christmas tree ornaments as eyes. Mochizuki Sensei found it in the Abegawa behind the dojo. The dragon is Ueshiba Sensei's zodiak animal.