View Full Version : Poorly executed waza in shiai.

5th July 2000, 10:51
In the lounge, someone (Jason Diederich) had made some comments alluding to shiai he has seen in which he said that judo black belts "always" untilize o soto gari and has noticed poorly executed kuzushi (off-balancing) by the players in this regard. Is this really that noticable? What other technique displayed in shiai may be called bad? Can you describe what you have seen?

Jeff, I expect a detailed report from you, in particular :)

Bob Steinkraus
5th July 2000, 17:50
I also read the thread to which you refer.

Y. Yamashita, in his book 'O-Soto-Gari' in the Ippon Master Class series, says what seems to be the same thing about o-soto-gari. He says that in contest, most o-soto-gari attacks are of the 'hook, hop, and reap' variety. (I know, I know, this is o-soto-gake).

My take is, if it works, what is the issue? Shiai, randori, or street, if it scores ippon or helps to end the fight, it is a good technique.

Yamashita made this point because he found it difficult to get the platform leg in position without telegraphing his intention. Since most judoka fight right handed, it is indeed difficult to step in and reap right handed against a fighter in left stance (like a right handed boxer). On the other hand, I have had great success against karate fighters who adopt an extreme left stance by stepping in with my right leg backwards (I fight lefty) and reaping with my left leg. Kuzushi is achieved by swinging my left forearm around their neck or head almost simultaneously with the reap.

The other variant I used successfully lacks much of a lapel hand action at all. From a sleeve grip with one hand, catch hold of the sleeve with the other hand, hook on, and duck your head down and hang all your weight on the sleeve. By quickly hopping and lifting hard with the reaping leg, you can tip your opponent over backward and throw, and it is especially hard for him to hit you anywhere significant due to your crouched position. Another o-soto-gake, I know.

My $.02 worth.

5th July 2000, 19:35
Hi, Bob,
I didn't really see that was nessarily bad in how the throw was performed (you are right, though,, the diffenrence is small in gake or gari, but in that thread I was just making your point. Jon Bluning mentions other ares of the body to take him down, but I don't wast to discuss that here;)

I'm a short guy 5'3" so I tended to off balance to the back, and just a little to the side, especially with a left sided throw. I have always found it important (in o soto GARI) to throw your weight more into the outer chest, than the arm. Taking both legs out, works even better, providing you really throw yourslef into the person's chest. I used it coming out of a right side attempt at eri, or ippon seoinage. I didn't get guys of the right height that much, but when I did, I made the most of it.

Bob Steinkraus
6th July 2000, 18:21
Hi, Mark -

When you refer to 'taking both legs out', did you mean o-soto-guruma?

Syd Hoare in his work 'O Soto Gari', a British work published by Leisure Learning, says that any time uke's other, non-reaped leg doesn't come up off the floor, there is a weakness in the drive of tori's lapel-gripping hand. Is this what you meant?

Also, when you did o-soto-gari as a follow up to a missed ippon-seoinage, what did you do with your right hand (assuming a right handed seoinage)?

7th July 2000, 05:41
Hi, Bob!

If I miss my Ippon Seoi (I get a lot of practice at that), I maintain my double handed grip on the single arm and Ju to(read: JUMP ON) his new kuzushi to his right rear (as in Ushiro Yama Arashi) [Is there an echo in here?].

Seriously, it has the same two hands on one side advantage as Y.A. and if you turn left as you drop (assuming right side nage), the likelyhood of a throwing ippon is increased about as much as the likelyhood of an oase-waza Ippon decreases.

7th July 2000, 09:42
I probably should have just said "out of a failed seoinage" then I wouldn't have to answer this probably, but that's a good question. Since I never grab with the one arm over, coming out is easy. As to whether it is o soto garuma, I pretty much let my "conditioned reflex" do the talking, but no, I wasn't speaking of O soto garuma (I just looked at a picture to make sure), but taking out both legs with o soto gari. Garuma is more of a outer thigh sweep than a reap, hence the name. My right arm (one over the shoulder) sometimes would go to grasp the front or side of the uwagi, if I cannot actually grip the other arm. If I did that, this throw would not be very likely, in my opinion. As I said somewhere, I like to break kuzushi and achive kake by spreading uke to the side more than completely to the back. This allows for the power of your body weight to complete kake, so the arm is not necessarily in use save to push as uke will, at times, push back, still avoiding the shoulder throw, but if timed correctly, I have done it as described. My first real success with it came in a tournament in which uke had a low center and I was not able to get off my best weapon(s), the shoulder throws/drop. I just made my normal back out and he was there so wham! It surprised the hell out of me, as well. Since, I have been teaching this throw with a side kuzushi as I had seen better results than with o soto gake, but garuma is fun in that both legs coming out is a nice feeling. Generally, there is no doubt. Have you ever tried this out of the same failed throw, or do you use it stricly as your back throw of choice?

Hey, Ed, That is the usual direction when coming out of the right side, and when the opportunity arises, I usually attempt it this way as well, but as I am a lefty, I have more strength in carrying this out. Of course, if they realize their error in letting you out, then we are speaking a whole new ball o wax.
And how do you do that form of yama arashi? We can continue that thread her if you like.

Bob Steinkraus
7th July 2000, 12:57
Mark and Ed -

I have heard o-soto-guruma described in multiple ways.

One is basically an o-soto-gari that catches both legs with the reap.

I also had it described as a 'backwards o-guruma'. The person who described and demonstrated the throw was emphatic that the hips should lift uke up, as they do in o-guruma, and the leg sweep simply tips uke back so he falls flat.

Someone also called a variation on o-soto-gari where tori plants the leg behind uke, levers uke up with hip action, and throws backwards, o-soto-guruma as well.

The last version of o-soto-guruma involves reaping the single leg as in o-soto-gari, but hooking the instep of the reaping leg in front of the knee of the other, further leg, and by snapping the reaping leg straight, pop uke's reaped leg up and then throwing him backwards by twisting to the side. I think this one is illegal in shiai. Also looks dangerous to tori's ankle/knee, although I have brought it off successfully in randori.

Have either of you any thoughts on using o-uchi-gari as a follow up to an unsuccessful ippon-seoinage? In particular, what do you do with your right, lapel gripping hand (tsuri-te) in o-uchi-gari if you have let go to get the ippon-seoinage? I generally thought the follow up o-uchi-gari would depend on shoulder drive and lack much hand action at all. Any suggestions for other ways of doing it?

Back to work for now. I will check back over lunch for your thoughts. Have a great weekend.

7th July 2000, 17:07
What I would do with the right hand to keep my balance uncompromised is to use the fore-arm on the right side of Uke's chest/lower shoulder as a pivot point.
Even better would be the back of the elbow. It's been a couple of years since Judo for me, but this is an application we use in Jujutsu as a counter-strike/throw combo.

Brian Vermeulen

Jeff Cook
8th July 2000, 00:57
I don't think this is a situation about a weak technique, but about judoka that maybe don't execute the technique perfectly.

Personally, I feel that osoto gari is an outstanding technique, both for shiai and self-defense/LE application. But like with any technique, if it is "forced" it gives the appearance of being awkward.

It's all about timing for the entry, and kuzushi before or as you are entering. If you do not break the balance and try to force the technique, you may be successful, but you won't be efficient.

Jeff Cook

8th July 2000, 08:10
Hi Bob & Mark!

Bob-- I throw Osoto Guruma with an extended leg between buttocks and knees (very little if any sweep) and (throwing rt.) pivot left 90 degrees while pulling uke to me to roll him over my leg which turns toes down.

Mark-- I have been taught an ushiro Yama Arashi as follows (AKA ushiro Hiza Nage): From the Rt. uke takes Jigo, Tori pulls both hands close to his chest (normal kumi) and shifts body weight over left foot as in osoto gari. Then, instead of reaping, Tori plants his toes behind uke's rt. knee and drives the foot to vertical, dropping his head below waist level for added foot elevation. I have done it in shiai with very satisfying aeronautical effect!

8th July 2000, 08:29
Jeff is right, although I have never been successful when doing this throw without at least fakng a shoulder throw (Here is also where o uchi gari) comes in, for whomever mentioned it). Also good for coming out of a the shoulder throw or faking, and this was my favorite move, was ko soto gari. In shiai, it may look ugly but you do get the throw done. Also, we are not speaking of bad technique, necessarily, just a continuation, a counter (O soto guruma), or a fake. In my day, it was illegal to fake any throw. This could get you a warning or disqualification if you didn't commit to the throw, but that is apparently gone now, as it is done all the time and there is no mention in any of the shimban handbooks.

As to o soto guruma, Bob, in kata, it generally is a backwards tai o toshi, except that the body is further away, making it a true "wheel" motion. I don't think I have ever done this in shiai, but in randori it is fun to find away of getting it off. I have, though, swept both legs out when attempting o soto gari, but it just happens that way. It can be extremely hard on uke, if it comes as a surprise. I have done this in intrasquad shiai and have knocked the wind out of uke, and have had the same done to me.

As to who Brian describes it, this is more of what I meant as a counter/fake. You may maitain the grip on the lapel or can grip/push with the forearm. This was how it was practiced in kito ryu, at least, where I worked out. If you can get it, read/watch Masahiko Kimura's o soto gari. He is said to have had the best ever. Kind of like Geesink's uchi mata. You know it is coming and there is not a whole hell of a lot you can do about it. Even if you could prevent either of these guys nage, they would take you down with it, and Geesink being 6'6", kesa gatame was pretty good, as well. Kimura would use some kind of arm lock if unsuccessful with his o soto gari, but that was not often the case.

If you can find coverage for the Olympics, watch for Jim Pedro's ko soto gari. That is his back throw.

BTW: As an aside, I offiated a women's tournament here in New Mexico where one young woman player got off one the most classic o soto gari I have ever seen. The two had been grappling, but I never stopped the action. They both either thought I had, or they just naturally stopped and got up, the first walking away, with the other coming up with her arms/hands behind her pushing upward and watching the other move away. As the one was pushing herself up, the other rushed her and got off a perfect o soto gari. Many speak of a lack of technique in shiai and in interhational tournament, this is true. This time, however, it was absolutely perfect.. My advice is: never assume anything:)

8th July 2000, 08:43
Hi, Ed,
So you are saying that in this nage of YA, the leg does not leave the ground? Live long enough and you will hear enough descriptions of YA to know that no one knows.:) In almost every description I have heard, the leg comes up to the knee as in hane goshi or harai goshi, but this one I can picture.

8th July 2000, 15:03
Hi Mark-

Shame on you for confusing a fuzzy-headed old man after only one cup of coffee on a Saturday morning! In this YA, the only leg that doesn't leave the ground is Tori's planted left! When you hit this one right, uke has both feet at shoulder level.

8th July 2000, 21:00
I apolgize for your "fuzzy-headed appearance." I am heading that way fast, and even strangers do "fuzzy-head takes when I walk into my dojo and new students see me for the first time. And I apologize for you not completing your "wakeup fix."

I was referring to that variation of yama-arashi. When I wasn't fuzzyheaded and in junior high school in the early sixties, the yama arashi throw was always different given the teacher, dojo, and a myriad of psychics who say they have mastered the throw;) . For every dojo of students, there is at least one teacher who seems to profess to knowing the "mountain storm" through used by Saigo Shiro in the infamous Tokyo Police Dept. shiai. In most inferred yama-arashi throws I have heard it is a same side grip ending with a move similar to hanegohsi. One described in one post, says that the sole of the foot is used instead of the instep. It seemed in your description that (assuming right side) that both legs remained planted. That would truly make it a tewaza, but the hips are involved tremendously from what I can gather. I was always under the impression of a same side grip with a movemnet to left with the hips with the right leg being the "lifting leg." Is that what you meant, oh, great, bald one?:D

PS: In case you were repeating your state of mind with that remark: Never mind!

Actually, I have never been taught any form of yama arashi with the exception being a throw which was said to be similar, and I do not teach it now. Some things are better left to the imagination. This is one of them in my opinion.

Gettin back on topic a little, has anyone seen kani basami (scissor throw)done for ippon or wazari? If the throw fails, and it often does, how do you defend yourself from being dragged in for osaekomi or shime, Kansetsu, etc.?

9th July 2000, 08:13
Hi Mark,

Sorry about adding to the confusion this AM; the theraputic application of a few more cups after my mid-morning nap has done the trick!

What confused the issue was my lack of reference to Dan Zan Ryu's Yama Arashi (to which I mentally referred; didn't you hear me?) which is also a neat but probably historically inaccurate art involving a throw, choke and armlock. I think I'll post in the YA thread tomorrow.

My best (which sometimes makes me nerevous),

9th July 2000, 10:10
I thought I heard something, but when I awoke I was a fly on a wall somewhere. Considering the time frame for that tournament, a jujutsu discussion of yama arashi is not entirely out of hand. According to most sources, there was a buzz in the crowd which seemed to be saying they knew which move Shiro was going to use. Since jujutsu practitioners (koryu) of the time were already having contests of their own, the facts of the shiai sometimes gets lost. I have read in many accounts that minutes were taken, but the best descriptions begin with words such as "reportedly, apparently, and in the novel Sugata Sanshiro," etc. A description and performance of a throw from Danzan ryu surely fits in here. I have even heard reports that Saigo Shiro may have used an aiki technique to beat this giant of a man, one considered "unbeatable.

So Ed, a description from any ryu of jujutsu, even one so "modern" as kodenkan, may bring us closer to knowing that throw. I look forward to your post. Thanks.

9th July 2000, 15:15
Good Morning Mark.

Dan Zan Ryu's Yama Arashi appears in Master Okazaki's Nage no Kata (some say Nage Te) as number 20, the final art on the list.

Tori and Uke begin in standard Judo hookup (rt. side). [Later applications in some Okazaki organizations (there are ten) begin with a punch or grab, so Uke initiates the attack.] Tori changes his right-hand lapel grip to a thumb-inside grip at high eri on Uke's right side, shuto edge resting on Uke's neck.

Tori steps forward left, pulling uke's shoulder to his chest and achieving kuzushi to Uke's right rear.

Tori lifts his right leg, bending his knee, and places the ball of his foot behind Uke's right knee.

Tori then turns 45 degrees left as he curls his right toes into the hollow behind Uke's knee and shoots his right leg to as near vertical as possible. The momentum of this thrust (not sweep) takes both Uke and Tori airborne.

Tori guides Uke to a landing on his left side. Tori lands kneeling on right knee, left leg extended away from Uke at right angle to Uke's body, right thigh vertical and firmly bracing Uke's back at the shoulder blades.

Tori then simultaneously executes katate jime to Uke's right carotid (remember the thumb-in grip?) with his right hand, and dislocates Uke's right shoulder by wrapping Uke's right arm (palm up) around Tori's vertical thigh. The shoulder lock and the choke complement each other.

I hope that is clear. This art has a lot of details that can't be left out. "Little fingers, little toes."