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CEB
8th July 2001, 14:23
Hello

This week I started I began my study of SMR. I also practice iaijutsu. We covered a lot of stuff my first class including the first 2 kata. The first thing I noticed were the characteristics of the attackers sword technique. In sagan the kensen is held higher than I am used to. (about nose height as opposed to throat level) and in hasso the tsuba is at a higher position than in the style I practice. I was just curious what ryuha SMR's sword techniques are derived? Is there a SMR kenjutsu? I wonder if the higher kensen serves a combative purepose or does the higher kensen simply put the angle of the mine in a position to make the jojutsu techniques easier for novice students.

I would to say thanks for the level of quality that the individuals who hang out at e-budo exhibit. Great site, Great concept.

C.E. Boyd

Jeff Hamacher
9th July 2001, 02:38
Originally posted by CEB
This week I began my study of SMR. I also practice iaijutsu. We covered a lot of stuff my first class including the first 2 kata.
do you mean to say that you just entered the koryu and have been training on the kihon/seiteigata for some time? or did you just walk into your first class ever and have the koryu dumped in your lap?

I was just curious what ryuha SMR's sword techniques are derived? Is there a SMR kenjutsu?
there are 12 SMR kenjutsu kata. the founder of SMR trained in Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto-ryu. Menkyo Kaiden Phil Relnick-sensei also holds some level of certification in TSKSR and thus may be able to provide some insights, as may a number of the senior jo folk around here. if ya asks real nice they'll prob'ly help ya.:)

cheers, jeff hamacher

CEB
9th July 2001, 03:35
Thanks for the reply. My teacher teaches seitei first. I have not seen kata from the Koryu proper. I had not seen jo before Friday. My poor little brain was on overload, but it is good to learn new things. I was just curious what sword style was indigenous to SMR. Thanks again for your reply.

C.E. Boyd

Seishin
15th July 2001, 08:32
To shed some light on where the kenjutsu of Shindo Muso Ryu comes from - or is influenced by- it could be interesting to know what style of kenjutsu was practised in the Kuroda clan of Kyushu. Anybody out there who would know the answer to that?

As stated previously, the founder of Shindo Muso Ryu apparently studied Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu. However, to my knowledge he was not instructing sword at the Kuroda clan - it was not until later in history that Shindo Muso Ryu ended up in Kyushu with the Kuroda´s. Also, on the American Jodo Renmei´s internetsite they have some interesting information linking The kenjutsu of Shindo Muso Ryu with Tsukahara Bokuden´s Kasumi Shinto Ryu.

It is known when Uchida Ryu and some of the other auxiliary arts entered the Shindo Muso Ryu - but is it known when the Shinto Ryu kenjutsu started being practised among Jo exponents of the Ryu?

Best regards,

Flemming Madsen
Nippon Budoin Seibukan, Denmark

kylanjh
18th July 2001, 21:40
FYI, I found the following while purging my hard drive of material on my way to a new job. It came from a similar thread on iaido-l about a year back. Please excuse any formatting errors, which come from multiple cut-and-paste... the bulk of the passage is quoted from Jerry O'Brien of the Beikoku Rembukan, answering a question on the name of the SMR kenjutsu.

Sincerely,

Kylan Jones-Huffman

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In a message dated 05/18/2000 12:26:46 PM Pacific Daylight Time, mskoss@KORYUBOOKS.COM writes:

First off, the correct name for the kenjutsu is Shinto-ryu, not Kasumi Shinto-ryu. I don't where Kaminoda gets that or why he calls it by that name, but there is *no* reference to "Kasumi" Shinto-ryu anywhere that I've found (and I've looked).

Although we (Beikoku Rembukan) don't want to speak for Kaminoda Sensei, we can share with you all, what Kaminoda Sensei has shared with us regarding
the providence of "Kasumi" Shinto Ryu Kenjutsu. He has said many times that Shimizu Takaji S. would say that the proper name of what he referred to, as "Shinto Ryu" kenjutsu had been lost to history. In fact, the name is VERY generic and most likely not the primogenitor of the ryu. The SMR Densho
list the teacher of Muso Gonosuke (founder of SMR) as Sakurai Osumi-no-Kami, and thus a most probable source of the kenjutsu that would become incorporated into the SMR.

We are not scholars but understand that this research is difficult because of the limited and fragmented documentation available. Moreover,
in Japan, much archival material is kept in private hands. Five years ago (Heisei 6), the
family of a minor lord from Makabei donated a large family archive to the municipal historical museum for the purpose of historical research and
preservation. Just prior to or about Genroku 10, the Makabei family decided to document and confirm their own family genealogy and used many cross
references to go back 23 generations. This Makabei history dates back to Heian Jidai (circa 1140). The Japanese government has authenticated these family documents and granted them "Kunishite Shiseki" status.

Amongst these records were references to a deshi of Tsukuhara Bokuden named Makabei Hisamoto whose nickname was Oni Doumu. This man was a senior
student of Tsukuhara Bokuden as well as the 17th generation lord of a minor fief in close proximity to the Kashima Jingu. Even the Takeda (Shingen) records make strong mention of Doumu as a warrior to be feared. Now Bokuden referred to his style of Kenjutsu as "Shinto (god's way) Ryu" Kenjutsu., probably because it was near the shrine that he developed his sword style. Information distributed by the Shrine indicate that he later kept the name
Shinto Ryu but changed the characters to read "new just way" and later his son or son in law made a new conjugation using Shinto Ryu as "new wave". Suffice to say that the style of kenjutsu practiced by Oni Doumo was Shinto Ryu. The Makabei records go further and clearly refer to the Kenjutsu practiced by Doumo and his retainers as "KASUMI Shinto Ryu."

Now how does all this pertain to SMR you might ask? Well, the archive mentions one of the retainers of Doumo who was a lieutenant named Sakurai Osumi-no-Kami, who would become Muso's teacher. Furthermore, the description of the techniques of Kasumi Shinto Ryu bore very strong similarities to those practiced today within the "Shinto Ryu" kenjutsu of SMR. Kaminoda Sensei
was invited as a legitimate senior practitioner of Shindo Muso Ryu to meet with the historians who were studying the Makabei archive and consider those martial aspects reflected in the discussions pursuant to Kasumi Shinto Ryu. He was able to clearly identify the 12 kata (8 tachi and 4 kodachi) techniques described in these documents.

Kaminoda Sensei holds in his possession much of the historical documentation pertaining to the history of SMR and has shared much of this material with other researchers such as Matsui Kenji in his oft quoted work as translated by
Hunter Armstrong. He has said that he has often invited others to review the Makabei documents as well. It is not Kaminoda S. wish to invent something "new" and by using the name of "Kasumi Shinto Ryu" Sensei only wishes to share with his students and others this new historical data. We by no means imply that the Kenjutsu practiced by us is different from the style practiced by other SMR enthusiasts and hope that new information such as this will lead to more congenial relationships within the Jodo community. Moreover, any scholar who considers the case closed is set for surprises, as there are certain to be more pieces of information uncovered that might hold keys to
understanding more about these marvelous traditions.

We look forward to continued scholarship regardless of which path that might offer.


Jerry O'Brien
Beikoku Rembukan

Brently Keen
19th July 2001, 00:21
Two Questions for anyone who might know:

First, Is the Kuroda clan of Kyushu mentioned above as part of SMR history any relation to the present day Tetsuzan Kuroda currently teaching a number of koryu systems in Saitama?

I believe Tetsuzan Kuroda inherited a jojutsu system (Tsubaki Kotengu-ryu?) along with Komagawa Kaishin-ryu kenjutsu, Shishin Takuma-ryu jujutsu and Tamiya-ryu iaijutsu. Just wondering if there was a connection there or not between SMR and either his jojutsu ryu and/or his family.

Second, Kylan quotes Jerry O'Brien responding to Meik Skoss:

"Even the Takeda (Shingen) records make strong mention of Doumu as a warrior to be feared. Now Bokuden referred to his style of Kenjutsu as "Shinto (god's way) Ryu" Kenjutsu..."

Sorry to take a tangent on this thread, but does anyone have any knowledge about these "Takeda (Shingen)" records? And could someone please tell me more about their contents, or at least point me to someone who can?

Brently Keen
soulsamurai@hotmail.com