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PghBudo
9th July 2001, 21:02
I have been reading about jujutsu and it appears that jujutsu was not just an unarmed art. There were small arms taught such as tanto, jutte, tessen, ect. My question is are these types of weapons taught within Kokusai Jujutsu?

Neil Hawkins
10th July 2001, 06:07
Tom

I am not a practicioner of kokusai jujutsu, but I would expect that the answer is yes.

Kokusai is essentially a sub-art of the Gembukan and is an amalgamation of many traditional styles of Jujutsu. Because of the association with ninjutsu, styles such as Kukishin Ryu and Hontai Yoshin Takagi Ryu had some very good small weapon techniques. I would be very surprised if they were not taught as part of the curriculum.

Do not expect to learn these techniques early in your training however, in many of the older styles it was a requirement that you become proficient without weapons before they were taught.

There are people here or down in the Genbukan Forum that will be able to give a definitive answer though.

Regards

Neil

Neil Hawkins
10th July 2001, 10:48
Yes, sorry Daniel.

Slip of the keyboard, I had meant to put Takagi in there, but missed.

Busy at work!

Neil

Neil Hawkins
11th July 2001, 10:19
I have seen some footage of Takenouchi (Takeuchi) Ryu using a tanto defensively, both against weapons attacks and empty hand attacks. Old footage though so I'm not sure if it is still taught anywhere, Wayne Muramoto (or the Skoss') would be the one to ask.

There is also some in Yanagi Ryu, at least Don Angier has a video out on tanto-jutsu. But there's none of that where you are. Sorry can't be of any more help.

Regards

Neil

Daniel Lee
11th July 2001, 10:51
I've seen the takenouchi-ryu blade work but wasn't sure if it was tanto or kodachi length. Never knew about the shidare yanagi-ryu's knife work - do you, or any other e-budoers know more about the nature of the art?

Thanks again!

11th July 2001, 15:21
Hi Guys,

Shindo Yoshin ryu originally contained a series of tanto waza. Within the mainline tradition these evidently fell into near obscurity in the very early 20th century due to the popularity of sport taijutsu & Judo. However most of these kata remained in the Ohbata ha line and were expanded somewhat by headmaster Takamura Yukiyoshi as he was a big fan of knife work.

There are 30 tanto kata currently listed in the mokuroku, 20 are Tanto Omote no waza (10 with tanto as shite and the swordsman uchite, & 10 with tanto as shite and uchite empty handed,) There are also 10 Tanto Ura no waza. ( 10 with shite empty handed and uchite with tanto.

You can find a small number of these kata still practised today within the Wado ryu karate style which has it's origins in Shindo Yoshin ryu. They appear to be slightly changed in Wado ryu from the way we perform them in SYR perhaps due to the Wado ryu practitioners not wearing a hakama during their execution. In Wado ryu uchite holds the saya of the tanto in his hand and casts it away on the draw. (Very odd to me) In SYR the saya is in our obi we and draw the tanto from there.

BTW. I also train with Don Angier in Yanagi ryu . His tanto jutsu is very sophisticated & much more comprehensive than that of SYR. In fact the most sophisticated tanto jutsu I've ever seen. The tape he put out is just the tip of the iceberg.

Toby Threadgill

PghBudo
11th July 2001, 20:46
Mr. Threadgill,

Does Shindo Yoshin Ryu teach tessen and jutte? How many waza are there for these two weapons? What other weapons does Shindo Yoshin Ryu cover?

Thanks, Tom

Daniel Lee
13th July 2001, 12:34
Toby,

Without 'giving the game away' too much, are there any broad generalizations about what kind of techniques are involved with the knifework in both arts? I'd really like to know more about what kind of skills are preserved today.

Thank you also for the light shed on kata syllabus for shinto yoshin-ryu also!

13th July 2001, 16:37
Tom,

Although Takamura Sensei demonstrated the use of a tessen, there are no specific tessen kata in the mokuroku. His tessen demos closely mirrored the techniques of the tanto albeit with the obvious modifications required. I never saw any jutte techniques performed by Takamura Sensei and there are no jutte kata in the ryuha mokuroku.

Daniel,

Generally both mae tsukamu and gyaku tsukamu grips are used. The mune is ocassionally used to hook or pinch an arm , wrist or weapon before a slice or thrust. Some very ingenious attacks to a swordsmans grip are employed in the Tanto no Ken Tachiai no Waza. Takamura Sensei had extremely fast hands and utilized the tanto with great efficiency of movement. Sort of ...food processor like :) In one SYR wheel throw the tanto cuts completely around the neck to remove the head. I've never seen a wheel throw like this one in any other system. As a taijutsu technique it just seems a very efficient way to apply a wheel throw. With a tanto in hand it takes on a frighteningly different character.

The Yanagi ryu tanto techniques I am familiar with are generally similar in certain respects but appear to take other aspects of knife application to a more sophisticated level which includes extremely subtle taisabaki. Yanagi ryu Tanto jutsu does not on the surface to appear to be as fast as SYR but is easily just as effective. Scary stuff !


Toby Threadgill

13th July 2001, 16:44
Tom,

Although Takamura Sensei demonstrated the use of a tessen, there are no specific tessen kata in the mokuroku. His tessen demos closely mirrored the techniques of the tanto albeit with the obvious modifications required. I never saw any jutte techniques performed by Takamura Sensei and there are no jutte kata in the ryuha mokuroku.

Daniel,

Generally both mae tsukamu and gyaku tsukamu grips are used. The mune is ocassionally used to hook or pinch an arm , wrist or weapon before a slice or thrust. Some very ingenious attacks to a swordsmans grip are employed in the Tanto no Ken Tachiai no Waza. Takamura Sensei had extremely fast hands and utilized the tanto with great efficiency of movement. Sort of ...food processor like :) In one SYR wheel throw the tanto cuts completely around the neck to remove the head. I've never seen a wheel throw like this one in any other system. As a taijutsu technique it just seems a very efficient way to apply a wheel throw. With a tanto in hand it takes on a frighteningly different character.

The Yanagi ryu tanto techniques I am familiar with are generally similar in certain respects but appear to take other aspects of knife application to a more sophisticated level which includes extremely subtle taisabaki. Yanagi ryu Tanto jutsu does not on the surface to appear to be as fast as SYR but is easily just as effective. Scary stuff !


Toby Threadgill

Richard Elias
13th July 2001, 20:40
In Yanagi ryu we have have tanto techniques from seated and standing, from in the sheath and already drawn. Every aspect of the knife is used, with various types of grips, strikes, cuts, and stabs. A wide variety of situations are covered including defence against mutliples attackers and other weapons. In the time that I've been studying, we've done knife against: another knife, sword, staff, and even naginata. It is also sometimes used in conjunction with tessen technqiues. Which leads me to mentioning that we also have tessen and jutte techniques which very closely mirror those of knife, and are learned from an equally varied range of situations.

The knife-work gets very complex. It is often combined with the jujutsu and aiki to do controls and throws. We don't usually just cut up the bad guy, we knock him down also.

It's one of my personal favorites.

Richard Elias
16th July 2001, 04:53
Daniel,

The combinations of jutte/tessen, tessen/knife are used in the same situations I mentioned above.

The jutte/tessen are sometimes used together in a form of "X" block, or the fan may be used to distract/engage the opponent with a follow-up with the jutte. Or the jutte may be used to capture a weapon, with a striking follow-up with the tessen. In our system there is also the option to tie-up the catured opponent, as we have a rather extentsive system of hojojutsu.

With the knife/tessen, most often (but not always) the tessen is used to engage the opponent, with the knife used to finish him off.

Incidently, I have seen film of the jutte/tessen combination being used by exponents of Ikkaku ryu (via shinto muso ryu), and also combined with hojo techniques after the opponent has been subdued.

Daniel Lee
16th July 2001, 12:29
Richard,

Thanks once again for such an insightful reply. I think the video you mentioned is the nippon budokan one - nicely done.

Does Yanagi-ryu or Shindo Yoshin-Ryu host any public demonstrations which martial artists of other traditions are able to watch? I would love to be able to see some yanagi-ryu or shindo yoshin-ryu movement in the US in the future if possible!

With sincere thanks,

Walker
16th July 2001, 16:19
Daniel,
Don Angier of Yanagi Ryu will be one of the guests at Stan Pranin’s Aiki Expo next year in Las Vegas www.aikidojounal.com
Toby Threadgill, James Williams, and Ken Good will also be doing demonstrations. All have had exposure to Don and his methods and have gone in different directions with them.
“Once you’ve been exposed to Yanagi ryu there is no cure.”

Richard Elias
16th July 2001, 20:15
Daniel,

You're welcome.

Actually the video I mentioned was a tranfer from film shot back in the 60's. It was a private demo done by some Japanese visitors to my teacher's dojo. I am sure the film was never made public.

In addition to the Aiki Expo Doug mentions my teacher does numerous public demos throughout the year. I (or someone) will usually post them here on E-budo, on Bugei.com, and Aikidojournal.com