Interaction vs. Reaction

[Paul Schweer]

Question for the old heads....

Instead of training, I got to watch a class this past Sunday. Good day for it since there was a good number of senior students on the mat. While watching I thought I noticed something being demonstrated that I’ve been told over and over: those who seemed to be successfully emulating the instructor were interacting as opposed to reacting.

Like I said I’ve been told this over and over so I’m not claiming insight, but it got me to wondering. Usually when I train, especially if the technique is not so familiar, my mind is on mechanics. “You stand like that, I stand like this. You try to hit me on the head, my right foot goes over there while I ….” You get the idea. But in the interest of learning to interact instead of react, and assuming I have at least a low level of mechanical understanding, where should my mind be?

I know this reveals a critical shortcoming but for me, right now, thinking about “blending with my partner” doesn’t seem to help me blend with my partner. I don’t make a good golf swing by thinking “good swing”, but I do okay if I think “break the tee.” Seeing “sight alignment” helps me squeeze off a good pistol shot, but I throw them all over the target when I start trying to squeeze ‘em off. So how about when I tie on the black skirt? I think I know what I’m trying to do, I’m just not sure what I should be thinking about while I’m trying to do it.

Any ideas?

Thanks for your help!

Paul

[Chuck Clark]

Think about all of the stuff you do now ... and keep practicing under the best teacher you can find until you don't think about all of that stuff and people are falling down in ways that are acceptable to your practice philosophy.

It's easy ... the hard part is to keep practicing.

[Brently Keen]

I agree with Chuck, keep practicing!

Yes, but how? Is the question is it not?

This might sound weird or contrary to a lot of what is commonly taught, but here's a method I use that works. Think outside the box, and try this reinterpretation:

Paul said, "Usually when I train... my mind is on mechanics." and "I think I know what I’m trying to do, I’m just not sure what I should be thinking about while I’m trying to do it."

Tohei sensei says, "Think of a wave. Calm it by half. Continue the process infinitely and the wave becomes infinitely calm. Note that it never becomes zero though... You must keep your mind on the path to infinite smallness. this is calmness. This is mind and body unification."

Now how many of us have tried to meditate in this way in order to improve our ki, or aikido? Does it really work? It didn't for me.

Now try this - how many mechanical details are you thinking about when your trying a new technique? You're trying to blend with your partner, while concentrating on stepping the right way, moving your arms in a circle/spiral, extending ki, connecting, shifting your weight, relaxing, lowering your center of gravity, using the proper grip to seize your partner, etc... Your mind is too busy, too cluttered to accomplish any of these details in a coordinated manner right? Your mind is like rough water, stirred up, not giving a clear reflection. So reduce the number of things you're concentrating on. Think only about your greatest weakness, and concentrate on improving it.

"Know yourself, your strengths and weaknesses, then know your opponent, his strengths and weaknesses. Eliminate your weaknesses..." right? Doing this will do wonders for one's humility.

"Keep One Point", how many of us have meditated on our navels hoping to improve our ability to execute techniques with "mushin" or no mind?

Now what if "the one point" refers not to one's hara or center of gravity but to concentrating on one thing at a time? You concentrate on slowly squeezing the trigger, but your shots go all over right? And you don't think you're improving. But, when you practice squeezing, focusing on that one point and nothing else until it becomes natural and you don't have to think about it, then you concentrate on the next (one) point, the bulls eye in your sight picture, and you squeeze naturally without even thinking now, and with a little practice (and concentration) you adjust your aim 'til you hit the target, then after some repeated success, you can instinctively blend your target into your sight picture, and harmonize with it, presto mushin!

Keep just one point in your mind, work on your ashi sabaki (footwork) until you can step and enter properly without thinking. Then work on the next "one" point whatever you need to work on, whether it's your arm and hand motions, the the proper angles, atemi, breathing, or whatever. You concentrate only on one single thing at a time, until it becomes natural, then when it becomes natural or instinctive it's no longer cluttering up your conscious mind it's automatically moved into your subconscious, your gut, your hara right?

Training is a growing process, you have to give yourself time to grow and accumulate ability. We have to let go of our egos, and attachment to "saving face" by showing we can throw our partners. This is why it's not profitable to train with a competetive attitude in Aikido.

Forget about throwing your partner and concentrate on really internalizing one thing at a time. While concentrating on your footwork you may not successfully apply the technique, because of the grip, or angle you're using, but so what? Here is where it helps if your partner cooperates by yielding to the technique when you step correctly. But even if he doesn't, don't worry about it, don't be attached to the outcome of the technique. "The way of the samurai is the resolute acceptance of death" right?

Just like when you're concentrating on squeezing, and your shot's go all over, it's ok, because you're not trying to hit the target you're trying to develop a fundamental skill required for accuracy, squeezing off each shot rather than pulling or jerking the trigger. Likewise, your objective, the purpose of training is to develop skills and abilities, not to compete with and show your partner how good you are. When you get your footwork down, then you work on the next thing, aligning the joints properly with the center-line, or whatever. Gradually you learn how to relax, enter and blend, how to turn and drop your weight and everything else without using strength, or thinking much at all.

Note that I said without thinking very much, not without thinking at all. Many people try to empty their minds completely (that's nonsense IMO). Fill your mind instead. Read Heiho Kadensho, the Yagyu family book of strategy (The Sword and the Mind). Study human physiology, learn how the body works. But don't let your mind get stuck on any one thing, move from one point, to another, forgetting what you've learned as you move on to the next one point. Be flexible. Think and train outside the box, focus on mastering (or internalizing) principles rather than techniques, and then you'll naturally find yourself better able to interact rather than react.

FWIW, Gambatte!

Brently Keen



[Edited by Brently Keen on 07-07-2000 at 04:15 AM]

[George Ledyard]

At the beginning of your training it is very difficult to not think about the mechanics. What you are talking about is movement that seems spontaneous, seemingly without a lot of conscious effort put into it. That can only happen after the body has begun to internalize the movements.

When I started teaching I made an interesting discovery. My Aikido worked better when I was teaching than when I was on the mat training in another's class. I started wondering why that was. I realized that class is normally artificial in that you are essentially called on to imitate someone else’s technique. The partner comes in with an expectation of what you are going to do (because he just saw the teacher do it) and you try to make it happen, doing you best to do it as closely as possible to what the teacher had demonstrated.

When you get up to teach you aren't in the "imitation" mode anymore. The uke comes in with no expectation of what you are going to do because as teacher you can do whatever you want. So the uke keeps his energy much more balanced than when he knows what is going to happen in advance (even if he isn't consciously anticipating there usually is a difference). And of course you aren't in "imitation" mode but are rather in the "doing". When you are up there demonstrating you aren't analyzing every detail of the technique, thinking about whether it's right or not. You are actualizing a set of principles; you are projecting your energy and intention outwards to your partner to connect with his center. If he is a decent uke he comes in with the strong intention to get to your center as well but is able to make instantaneous shift from offense to defense as needed.

The whole area of projecting or extending your energy outwards to connect with your partner's requires an outward or "Yang" intention. When you are thinking about your own technique, that is essentially an inward focus, which is "Yin". It is almost impossible to really do technique spontaneously and powerfully in the "Yin" mode. So in class where you are called on to think about detail, imitate and compare your technique with the teacher's it is actually very difficult to be really successful.

I think that this fact accounts for the importance of senior students getting a chance to teach class. In dojos that are very mature you might be a sandan and never see a teaching spot, even as a sub. That is tough because the opportunity to "do" rather than "imitate" is important to making the jump to having your own Aikido not an imitation of someone else’s. Because in most schools the teaching spots are quite limited the other area where a student experiences the "doing" rather than the "imitating" is in taking ukemi for whoever is instructing. That also requires present action not analysis. You can't take good ukemi and be thinking about whether your feet are in the right place.

So I think it is apparent that as junior members of the dojo it is very difficult to achieve that state of interacting as opposed to reacting. The teacher can at least help this along by giving the senior students the opportunity to teach, and by giving the intermediate and advanced students the leeway to deviate a bit from the exact version of the technique they are teaching. Saotome sensei is particularly good at this. If you look at his students, none of them look exactly like him. Each one has been given the freedom to find what works for him or her. So the real solution to this issue is one of time in coupled with as much support as the teacher can give to the opening up of the student’s skills as they progress. No short term quick fix available.

[Gil Gillespie]

Whew, Paul you opened up a can of beautiful worms here.

Brently and George those posts belong in a book on Aikido. No sh*t. Those are eloquent takes that a poor slob like me can ruminate on, like a deer munching cypress leaves. (Don't shoot me, please!)

I'd like to respond, but I would not deign to sully those posts. HONTO- I'm serious. I await further responses from you great budoka out there. C'mon. You read E-budo from the bushes alla time. Step out and add to this one!

[Paul Schweer]

Thank you all for your replies.

If I’m understanding the drift….

I shouldn’t expect to experience any improvement in my ability to interact by working on it directly. I should instead look for interaction as an indicator of the successful internalization of other principles, which themselves can only be internalized through continued practice – practice one thing at a time, then do it again; repeat as necessary – over a long period of time.

Is this a fair summary of what’s been posted so far?

Paul

[George Ledyard]

Originally posted by Paul Schweer
Thank you all for your replies.

If I’m understanding the drift….

I shouldn’t expect to experience any improvement in my ability to interact by working on it directly. I should instead look for interaction as an indicator of the successful internalization of other principles, which themselves can only be internalized through continued practice – practice one thing at a time, then do it again; repeat as necessary – over a long period of time.

Is this a fair summary of what’s been posted so far?

Paul

We all get a kick out of these discussions but I have to admit I sometimes remeber Ikeda sensei who has had just one answer to all my questions over the years. No matter what I asked him he would look politely thoughtful and then reply "Just train". It looks to me as if you already figured that out.

[Chuck Clark]

George,

That answer, "Just Train," is something I have learned over the years and I pass it on as well. However, I have also come to the point where I only say that to people who are in good training environments. What I mean by that is a good instructor or a peer group who trains together that are doing quality practice.

I have seen too many people who report training for 20 years or more and it's obvious that they have done the same 3 or 4 years over and over.

Just training isn't enough. Find a good instructor or teacher and then commit to them as an apprentice and "Just Train."

[Brently Keen]

I'm finding that I agree with Chuck again here. Too many folks just train incorrectly for years and years. What happens then is that poor habits (or weaknesses) are developed as a result of training. Martial arts training is for the reduction and elimination of weaknesses, and it is the responsibility of the instructor to conduct the training in such a manner that facilitates the developing of proper skills.

Ikeda sensei's answer may be true, as Musashi said, "The Way is in Training", but it may be given out of context, or simply to avoid answering the question at hand. If a student asks a technical question I think it's appropriate to give a technical answer to the question asked.

Brently Keen

[George Ledyard]

Originally posted by Brently Keen

Ikeda sensei's answer may be true, as Musashi said, "The Way is in Training", but it may be given out of context, or simply to avoid answering the question at hand. If a student asks a technical question I think it's appropriate to give a technical answer to the question asked.

Brently Keen
When I mentioned that particular quote about Ikeda Sensei I was referring to his comments to me over the years. He is actually a very compassionate teacher and is very helpful and instructive with Beginners particularly.

[George Ledyard]

Originally posted by Chuck Clark
George,

That answer, "Just Train," is something I have learned over the years and I pass it on as well. However, I have also come to the point where I only say that to people who are in good training environments. What I mean by that is a good instructor or a peer group who trains together that are doing quality practice.

I have seen too many people who report training for 20 years or more and it's obvious that they have done the same 3 or 4 years over and over.

Just training isn't enough. Find a good instructor or teacher and then commit to them as an apprentice and "Just Train."


You are right there. I remember on several occasions I have been present when Saotome Sensei chewed the people at acmp out. "some of you I have seen every year for ten years. Each year there's no change. Your training, what's the meaning? Plenty of folks who seem to be going through the motions. But I don't really consider just going through the motions real training anyway.

[Brently Keen]

George,

Upon rereading my post I see I wasn't very clear. I didn't mean to imply that Ikeda sensei wasn't compassionate, helpful or instructive, but rather that the admonition "Just train" is often misused by many instructors as a cop-out, either because they are lazy, unwilling or unable to give proper instruction.

I don't think Ikeda sensei fall's into this catagory, it's far more likely that he understands the words of Musashi, particularly in light of what you said about your quote being in reference to his comments over the years.

Regards,

Brently Keen

[Edited by Brently Keen on 07-12-2000 at 02:09 AM]

[Paul Schweer]

Originally posted by George Ledyard

We all get a kick out of these discussions but I have to admit I sometimes remeber Ikeda sensei who has had just one answer to all my questions over the years. No matter what I asked him he would look politely thoughtful and then reply "Just train". It looks to me as if you already figured that out.

I'm a very long way from figuring anything out.

My understanding is the most important thing I can bring to my training is a clear understanding of intent. What am I trying to do? I've been assuming this is something I need to establish before I step on the mat.

I shouldn’t really expect my goals to “develop” with training, should I? I was under the impression that good training comes from clear intentions, not the other way around.

[Rob]

Paul

There are others on this forum far more experienced than I, but I can tell you that since I started training my 'goals' have changed / evolved a lot.

Like many people I started because I wanted to learn self defence, over time that became less important and I wanted to get my Shodan, now I just want to be able to recreate those elusive times when it all just 'happens'. I fully expect as my training continues, my goals will continue to evolve.

On a more specific training goals note it's my experience that good training comes from good intent i.e. an honest desire to learn and an appreciation of the effort required to do so. Personally I've stopped worrying about what I'm trying to do, I have a Sensei who points me in the right direction. I just concentrate on staying on the path.

Hope this makes sense, it's been a long day.

Hywl

Robert Wallis

[Brently Keen]

Paul,

Your goals or motivations rather for training may change the longer you train. As you meet one goal you naturally set your sights on another.

But I think you're absolutely right. If you do not have a clear idea of what it is you're trying to do, or how you are supposed to accomplish that you're just effectively spinning your wheels. I tell my students it's like blindly pinning the tail on the donkey, it's hit and miss without the benefit of feedback. This type of training and/or teaching results in mostly missing, not to mention a lot of confusion and frustration. We have to be able to see the target, what it is we're aiming at.

Clear intentions are very important to good training. The student doesn't have to be clear (especially in the beginnnig) however if he has a good teacher, he only needs to trust the teacher and follow the training method. The student only needs to be clear about imitating the teacher and absorbing what the teacher has to teach, clarity will come with training. BUT, the teacher has a tremendous responsiblity to be clear in their intent, the teacher must not betray the students trust.

There is a sanctity in the student - teacher relationship that is sadly lacking these days. Unfortunately, there are too many unqualified people teaching without clear intentions, effectively transmitting nothing but babble and nonsense. There are also many technically qualified teachers who are either lazy or unconcerned about their students progress and do not hold up their end of the bargain.

Students need to be very diligent in seeking out great teachers who are able and willing to share their knowledge and expertise, to help facilitate the students aquisition of skills along the way.

Brently Keen

[Edited by Brently Keen on 07-12-2000 at 01:52 PM]

[Chuck Clark]

Brently,

Hear! Hear!

Good post.

[Paul Schweer]

Originally posted by Brently Keen

Clear intentions are very important to good training. The student doesn't have to be clear (especially in the beginnnig) however if he has a good teacher, he only needs to trust the teacher and follow the training method. The student only needs to be clear about imitating the teacher and absorbing what the teacher has to teach, clarity will come with training. BUT, the teacher has a tremendous responsiblity to be clear in their intent, the teacher must not betray the students trust.


What are the risks of a student’s postponing his development and understanding of intent? Wouldn’t such a student be likely to learn that the purpose of training is secondary to teacher emulation and loyalty? What happens when this student begins teaching?



Originally posted by Brently Keen

Students need to be very diligent in seeking out great teachers who are able and willing to share their knowledge and expertise….


If a student doesn’t first and foremost work to understand his training’s purpose, how can he reasonably hope to know a good teacher when he sees one?

[Brently Keen]

Paul wrote:

"What are the risks of a student’s postponing his development and understanding of intent? Wouldn’t such a student be likely to learn that the purpose of training is secondary to teacher emulation and loyalty? What happens when this student begins teaching?"
_______________________________________________________

The risks are that the student has to trust the teacher. But, (and this is a big BUT) the teacher must earn the trust and not betray the trust. The teacher has to be clear in their intent. I am extremely leery of any teacher who demands and insists on this trust, especially while not being clear. Trust is very much like respect, you give it, and you earn it, but you don't demand it. And you certainly shouldn't charge a lot for it. Loyalty likewise should be given and earned, but never demanded.

A good teacher is not only confident in their martial abilities, but should also be confident in their teaching abilities. They should be willing and able to teach you their skills, and they should have a method for doing so.

I would not go to any teacher unless they could do something that I really wanted to learn how to do. The student's intent then should be on the aquisition of skills and abilities possessed by the teacher. The teacher's responsibility is to provide a training environment, and teaching method for transmitting their knowledge and expertise. They have to be able and willing to do that. I would look far and wide for this type of teacher, and then I would set about immersing myself into the teaching and training, striving to imitate the teacher in order to absorb what they have to offer.

Too many teachers are on an ego trip. They only want to be the best fighter, or most famous and wise master, or they're on a power or control trip, and they want to be cult leaders, they want get girls, or whatever. It goes without saying that students should avoid these types of teachers at all costs.

Too many students are teaching, and that's part of the problem. A teacher has the responsibility to teach. Too often the teacher is lazy, or doesn't have the time, or has too many students to bother giving them all the attention they need to aquire his skills and abilities so he delegates his teaching to a student who is not ready or qualified to teach.

Students should focus their energies on their own studies, by trying to improve on their own weaknesses, and trying keep a beginner's mind, rather than worrying about controlling a class of kids, or trying to teach their juniors or peers something they can't even do well themselves. Leave the teaching to qualified and gifted teachers.
______________________________________________________
Paul wrote:

"If a student doesn’t first and foremost work to understand his training’s purpose, how can he reasonably hope to know a good teacher when he sees one?"
______________________________________________________

He can't, that's my point. The purpose of training is to aquire skills and abilities is it not? One should look at as many schools as you can in person, and when you find a reputable teacher with the skills and abilities you would like to learn, along with the willingness to teach them, then I'd enroll and get the process started.

Brently Keen

[George Ledyard]

Originally posted by Brently Keen
Paul,

Students need to be very diligent in seeking out great teachers who are able and willing to share their knowledge and expertise, to help facilitate the students aquisition of skills along the way.

Brently Keen

[Edited by Brently Keen on 07-12-2000 at 01:52 PM]
The problem is that most people do not have any idea what a good teacher is. Most people seem to look for someone who will validate them. Maybe they have a bunch of projections that they'd like to lay on somebody and they look for a teacher that will live up to the image. Any half way competent practitioner can look good to a beginner.

Saotome Sensei has been talking about this issue for many years. He has always maintained that it is his goal to create a group of professional instructors. By this he means professional in the sense of fully trained, certified instructors whose status as instructors would be universally recognized because of their professionalism. That is what the uchi-deshi were trained to be. They were sent out to spread Aikido around the world. They were given training that the regular public did not get. These men are referred to as Shihan or master instructors.

Most Americans looking at an art such as Aikido have no idea what a "master" would be. I remember being in the DC dojo when a hapless visitor from California made the mistake of referring to George Leonard as an Aikido Master. I tried to dive for cover but was too far from the exit to make my escape before the 45 minute tirade ensued. Sensei needless to say was upset that students of the art have no real idea what a quality instructor really is. So a thoghtful and articulate man like George Leonard, who is a wonderful teacher I am sure, is mistaken for someone who has real high level mastery. Sensei saw the tape of a demo that was done by ATM of a group of Aikido instructors (one of their "friendship" series). He was fairly upset by it. He said "Don't these people realize that they are only doing beginner Aikido? People who really know something will be seeing these tapes. They will think that Aikido is silly and ineffective" (paraphrase). He felt that once you go public via demos (or books, atpes, etc.) you are a representative of the art. He felt that it actually damages the art to have people of medocre skill presenting themselves to the public as teachers.

But there is no solution for this problem because there is no actual standard that means anything to judge whether a teacher is competent. Dan rankings are a joke. In Aikido you can have a fourth or fifth dan who doesn't even know who to do a sword cut, who is completely lacking in any ability to apply his technique martially. And there are many studenst who can't even tell the difference. There is no accepted standard for when a student sets himself as a teacher. We have inherited a system that accepts shodans and nidans as teachers (this was due to the early days of Aikido in which the lower level black belts were the senior teachers in the country aside from a very small number of Japanese Shihan.) In Japan there is no way that anyone under 4th Dan minimum would be setting up his own school. In fact there are often many sixth and seventh dans simply training at the school of a high level teacher, not feeling the need to go off and start their own place.

I really do not know if there is a solution for his issue. Perhaps over many years the public will becaome more educted about these issues and develop a level of discernment when it comes to looking for a teacher. In the meantime Caveat Emptor!

[AikiTom]

George wrote:
Sensei saw the tape of a demo that was done by ATM of a group of Aikido instructors (one of their "friendship" series). He was fairly upset by it. He said "Don't these people realize that they are only doing beginner Aikido? People who really know something will be seeing these tapes. They will think that Aikido is silly and ineffective" (paraphrase).


Yes, and actually there are two of the tapes like that. I remember pulling out one of them to show my father about aikido - I hadn't viewed much of it yet, and it was embarassing. I think I know the one you're referring to, George, and this one was worse, lackluster attitudes, very slow execution, repetitive techniques during randori.



George wrote:
I really do not know if there is a solution for his issue. Perhaps over many years the public will becaome more educted about these issues and develop a level of discernment when it comes to looking for a teacher. In the meantime Caveat Emptor!


I think sometimes people find about as much excellence as they're looking for (or willing to settle for), and as in many pursuits, that distribution of "excellence" may approximate a bell-shaped curve.

My positive observation is that since a lot of later "truths" of aikido are essentially self-discovered (as O-sensei may have said, "They are already within you."),
serious practitioners may live to improve even the mediocre - a positive sort of evolution.

Also, to comment on the "sanctity" of the teacher-student relationship mentioned earlier, if the "real" is valued, hopefully such relationships will endure, be realized for how great they are, and multiply!

[Edited by AikiTom on 07-19-2000 at 11:28 PM]

[Paul Schweer]

I've received a number of helpful email messages on this subject from Gil Gillespie. I've done a little editing and included the results below.

Thank you, Gil.


From email messages authored by Gil Gillespie

The interaction you're after... will come as a BYPRODUCT of your training....

Work on blending, work on relaxation, work on breath, work on smoothness. By just being AWARE of your goal of interaction -- that will come. All by itself. In steps. And a long time from now (or not long) you'll see you've been interacting for a long time.

Use... repetitiveness perhaps to focus on the interaction you're seeking.... If you know uke's attack [use] that knowledge not to circumvent him but to train yourself in not anticipating him (which you will at first) but interacting with his attack. Again don't force it... You face uke, you know the attack. Go blank on that. Think blending with him (blend with his internal energy of deciding to attack you....), then comes the blending with his attack....

Join with their mental intent, join with their attack. Don't try to out-quick them....

Your challenge now is to harmonize with the speed of your partner....

So just keep training. You have a goal now in your training. Don't put any timetable or pressure on [yourself]. Relax, breathe, center, join, extend. Each time. Every time. Remember ichi go, ichi e. By retaining awareness of that goal you will reach that goal, and not notice "when" it happened.