PDA

View Full Version : difference between ippon seoi nage and morote seoi nage??



astro1
15th July 2001, 15:03
Hello everyone ...

I just want to hear from you about the differences between Ippon Seoi Nage and Morote Seoi Nage.

Anyway ,my oppinion is that Morote provides me a better control over my opponent ,however the Ippon has much broader range of combinations available.

Do you think that if my best throw is Morote and I practice it alot,should I practice also Ippon seoi nage?

Thank you...


Yuri.

MarkF
16th July 2001, 08:43
Welcome to E-budo, Yuri!

Please sign your posts with a full name. You can arrange the personal signature edititor to do this, check that it is your default, then not worry about it. It is one of a few rules on E-budo, as well.
*****

OK, to the question of two variations on Seoinage.

Actually, the two are so closely related that until 1997, Ippon Seoi was not recognized as a distinct shoulder throw of its own, only a variation (there are lots of them, some in which you don't have to turn your back on uke completely to put it on) of same.

In theory, you are correct about the control issue, that with the hand gripping the uwagi, and the forearm up in the armpit, you do maintain more comtrol. This is fine theory if one is to use this shoulder throw in randori no kata, or other kata (remember that ippon seoi is done off a straight punch in nage no kata).

The problem is that it takes more time to put on an effective morote seoinage in shiai than it does for ipppon seoi nage, but one can overcome this by actually releasing the dogi once your arm has reached its target.

Even today, most do not distinguish the two as different throws when observing the winning throw. They are all seoinage.

If you believe morote seoinage is more comfortable and a stronger technique for you, then certainly, use what feels right, but always practice throws in which you may find yourself in position to utilize. Sometimes, you can attempt ippon seoinage, then drop to the knee or knees and do ippon seoi otoshi from either side. Certainly you can utilize seoi otoshi as well, but in this situation it does limit you into doing it on one side when ippon seoi otoshi can be done by grasping either arm and pulling down from either side.

On a personal note, I found that ippon seoinage to be faster, so there are advantages in both, but it isn't wrong to favor one over the other. I did, but I sill used morote seoi when it presented itself. Different times, different rules, distinct advantages or disadvantages, but yes, you should be able to so both equally well in spirited randori.

Neither will hurt the other, but you may simply be adding another favored throw to those which you favor. Also, against a much, much taller opponent, I've found morote seoinage to be favorable, and with an opponent only a few inches taller, the ippon seoinange is more compelling.

So yes, you should attempt to master them both, in my opinion.

Mark

astro1
18th July 2001, 12:05
Thanks for your reply..
It really helped me.

Actually I wanted to ask something else :
Do you think that it is correct to choose your favored techniques as those that proove being successfull in competition?

Thanks again.
Yuri Perelstein.

BrianV
18th July 2001, 15:46
Hello Yuri,
I'll take a stab at answering this. (Then Mark can correct me!);)

It all depends on what your favored tech is to be used for. If you are a competitor and that is all you really care about, then of course.

However, if you are interested in a self defense aspect, then obviously the two are very distinct and different. What works on the mat may be nigh unto useless anywhere else due to circumstance and lack of regulation.

The way I look at it, can there be any down-side to your training by continuing to practice and master ANY tech? I also think you should have as many "preferred tech's" as possible, for the "just in case" scenario.

Best Wishes in Budo,

Neil Hawkins
19th July 2001, 02:12
Ok, I am not a Judoka, but us traditional Jujutsu types do know a little something about throws! ;)

The reason that there are so many variations to throws like the seoinage is that the circumstances of the throw can change so much during its execution. He pulls back, he leans in, he steps around, and so on.

The application of morote seoinage is such that it lends itself to a shorter person throwing a taller person. By grabbing the lapel and placing the elbow into the armpit you give yourself an extra four or five inches over using your shoulder alone. This allows the shorter person to break the balance of the taller person and complete the throw.

This is often not obvious in randori where people tend to pull their opponent onto then over their shoulder. The technical application (as I've been taught it!) is a lifting push upwards first, which breaks the balance by raising their centre, before leaning forward which breaks the contact with the ground and allows you to throw. The back remains straight the whole time and the body contact is the most important thing. Essentially a push rather than a pull, try it sometime.

Regards

Neil

MarkF
19th July 2001, 08:40
Your favored or best techniques are generally called "tokui waza." Shoulder techniques are favored in the smaller weight classes, so as stated, sure, chose what works. Most judo coaches help you in your search for your tokui nage.

Best to practice many throws in randori, unless you are on the tournament circuit as I was for many years. If you can do the nage no kata throws on both sides well, the three or four you are likely to use will come from that. Times have changed, and I'm in a time zone off the planet.

I'm not gonna argue with Neil or Brian. They're both right. Watch the muscling, though.

Mark

BTW: Never turn your back on your opponent or attacker unless you have a follow up plan in place.