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Jack B
19th July 2001, 17:08
A friend is moving to Jacksonville, Florida. Does anyone know about the following teacher?

M. Sakimukai - teaches Karate, Kobudo, Ryukyu-Te, Iaido and Jo-Do in Jacksonville. My friend is specifically interested in Jodo.

From the website <http://www.chintokan.com>: "The USA Jo-Do Federation is the exclusive National Jo-Do Authority for the International Jo-Do Federation in the United States of America. Likewise, the Pan American Jo-Do Federation is the exclusive Jo-Do Authority for the Internatinal Jo-Do Federation in the Western Hemisphere, including North, Central, and South America. Soke Grandmaster M. Sakimukai is the Chairman and Chief Instructor for both of these governing organizations, as chosen personally by the Chairman and Chief Instructor of the International Jo-Do Federation, Soke Hoshu Shiokawa Sensei in 1981."

Is this the same IJF founded by Draeger sensei? What is "Shiokawa-ha Shindo Muso Ryu Jo-Do" and what is the background of Soke Hoshu Shiokawa and master Sakimukai? Are they reputable/knowledgeable/decent people? Shiokawa Soke seems to have created a ha, what are the curricula and technical differences? How widespread is this style?

Thanks in advance,

Jack Bieler
Denton TX

charlesl2
19th July 2001, 18:30
According to the website, not only is Shiokawa the soke of Shiokawa-Ha Shindo Muso Ryu Jo-Do, but he's a Menkyo Kaiden and "(a next potential Soke)" of "Shindo Muso Ryu Jo-Do". I guess out here in the middle of the Pacific we just don't hear much about these things in the, uh, mainstream(?) SMR jo world.

The list of Shiokawa Sensei's cred's are at:
http://www.chintokan.com/usajf.htm

Just checking, but adding the hyphen (calling it jo-do) isn't supposed to indicate that it's a different animal from jodo, is it? Or would that be up to the Speculation Gods?

-Charles Lockhart
Honolulu, HI

Chuck Clark
20th July 2001, 01:04
Hello Jack,

No, this is a "different" International Jodo Federation than the one formed by Draeger and others at the request of Shimizu Sensei. Pascal Krieger is now the President of that IJF. Phil Relnick was the president after Draeger passed on and as of last year, Krieger has taken on the task.

I don't know where this other group of the same name came from. Shiokawa is known as a senior jodo practitioner in Japan.

Take care and best regards,

charlesl2
20th July 2001, 01:46
Chuck, or anybody,

These questions are probably a waste of bandwidth, since they won't improve my technique at all, but...

I get the impression that SMR jo is fragmented. If so, in what ways? Is this because of geography, time, what?

If a person holds a menkyo kaiden license in SMR jo, and another person holds a menkyo kaiden license in SMR jo but the techniques are different, would they both be considered teaching SMR jo? I was reading some of the posts about the tsksr kenjutsu fragmentation, and how that relates to varying levels of authenticity, permissions granted or not granted by the current soke, etc. Could these apply to SMR jo? There is no soke, correct? But there are several Menkyo Kaiden holders, some of which trained during different periods, some whose techniques must be different.

Is it perfectly legit to spawn off one's own group, add something-something-ha to the name to distinguish it from the main branch, and basically become soke of that particular variant? Assuming it is, would you need to hold Menkyo Kaiden to do this legitimately?

Is there a mainstream SMR jo? The "Federation" part of the IJF implies a collective of seperate groups.

And how does a person know whether they belong to some mainstream group, or to some deviant anarchistic group of evil-doers out in the middle of the Pacific, bent on WORLD DOMINATION, bwahahahahaha, uh, ha...., uh, ha....

Maybe never mind that one...

-Charles Lockhart
Honolulu, HI

Jack B
23rd July 2001, 21:06
Originally posted by charlesl2
I get the impression that SMR jo is fragmented. If so, in what ways? Is this because of geography, time, what? Jodo has grown enormously in this century (mainly popularized through ZNKR), and it is no longer restricted to Kyushu. There was no "soke" in the old SMR, but it was understood that a headmaster could name a successor. There have been multiple lineages almost since the beginning, and the lines were only recently reunited. When Shimizu died he did not appoint a successor, so it kind of threw open the field.

If a person holds a menkyo kaiden license in SMR jo, and another person holds a menkyo kaiden license in SMR jo but the techniques are different, would they both be considered teaching SMR jo? Yes, within reason. Most people who judge these things like to see the whole system being taught, in the same order, and the differences should at least be consistent.

I was reading some of the posts about the tsksr kenjutsu fragmentation, and how that relates to varying levels of authenticity, permissions granted or not granted by the current soke, etc. Could these apply to SMR jo? There is no soke, correct? But there are several Menkyo Kaiden holders, some of which trained during different periods, some whose techniques must be different. No since it not a family-owned art. Yes, there is no soke. There are several Menkyo Kaiden holders, and most of them have their own preferences.

Is it perfectly legit to spawn off one's own group, add something-something-ha to the name to distinguish it from the main branch, and basically become soke of that particular variant? Assuming it is, would you need to hold Menkyo Kaiden to do this legitimately? Yes and Yes. There are a couple of organizations in Japan that register legitimate koryu lineages, with proper densho. However, nobody's perfect, you know...

Is there a mainstream SMR jo? The "Federation" part of the IJF implies a collective of seperate groups. There are two or three mainstreams, I think. The IJF I know about is pretty much affiliated with just one of the groups I believe. You can see Kreiger sensei's http://www.fej.ch for info on that one. The Shiokawa IJF may be specific to his own -ha.

And how does a person know whether they belong to some mainstream group, or to some deviant anarchistic group of evil-doers out in the middle of the Pacific, bent on WORLD DOMINATION, bwahahahahaha, uh, ha...., uh, ha....
You don't....

Jack Bieler
Denton TX

Rob
24th July 2001, 11:33
Charles Asked ?

"And how does a person know whether they belong to some mainstream group, or to some deviant anarchistic group of evil-doers out in the middle of the Pacific, bent on WORLD DOMINATION, bwahahahahaha, uh, ha...., uh, ha.... "

Ok things to look out for..

1) Does the Sensei sit down a lot and stroke a fluffy white cat..

2) Do you have to cross a piranna / crocodile / shark pool to get to the dojo.

3) Is the Dojo in a secret location like hidden valley, empty volcano, space station.

4) Do you ever see the word - soke !

Just some pointers.

Also lines like the following

"Sensei do you epect me to talk"

"No Deshi I expect you to die !! hah hhahh ahhha hahh "

charlesl2
24th July 2001, 17:34
Actually, I do see some parallels here:

>1) Does the Sensei sit down a lot and stroke a fluffy white cat..<
No, but he does look at me and scratch his head, usually right after I perform some technique with my usual ne plus ultra (word of the day from dictionary.com) flair and style.

>2) Do you have to cross a piranna / crocodile / shark pool to get to the dojo. <
No, but I do have to cross town, and the way people drive here in Honolulu, I'd tend to think that the piranna/crocodile/shark pools would be safer.

>3) Is the Dojo in a secret location like hidden valley, empty volcano, space station. <
Yes! We do practice in this (semi-)hidden valley like place atop a small mountain, very near a crater no less. And while we are routinely invaded by tourists, so far we've managed to completely avoid the attention of the local martial arts community. Also, right nearby is a tower with all these bizaare concave disks attatched to it. Plus, to get up here, we have to drive up a route referred to as "Tantalus." Just how evil sounding is that? I mean, Tantalus sounds just like "tarantula," if you pronounce "tarantula" as Tantalus, right?

>4) Do you ever see the word - soke ! <
No, but about every third weekend we get soaked (the dangers of training outside). Which is almost as good, right?

>Also lines like the following
"Sensei do you epect me to talk"
"No Deshi I expect you to die !! hah hhahh ahhha hahh "<
No, but he routinely gives me scary looks and attacks me with wooden swords and sticks. Isn't that just as bad?

-Charles Lockhart
Honolulu, HI

Kepasahomes
5th August 2001, 19:49
Not many recommendations for Sakimukai in Florida? Maybe you got your answer Jack B.