katatedori (a few thoughts)

[Dennis Hooker]

Katatedori is not a passive or submissive attack. It is not simply an act to let your partner execute a particular form on you. Katatedori done by a skilled person is an effective attack that takes your center and places you in a position of vulnerability. I think to often people misunderstand katatedori and therefor make jokes about it's use and even relate it only to Aikido passive training.

To begin with, the attacker approaches you from the back, side or angled off to the corner front. Never straight in front of you. If the attacker comes from the front they approach you at an angle that allows them to drive your wrist and hand into your center. They garb with what has been described as an Aiki grip or sword grip. Their little finger is over the heal of your hand and the ring finger in along the joint of the wrist with the other fingers and the thumb holding firmly but not squeezing. Your hand and wrist are locked, no easy Nikkyo here. In some schools I have even seen a partner take the attackers hand and move it further up his wrist so that his hand was free because they couldn’t do nikkyo or some such thing otherwise.

Your hand and wrist are driven into your center forcing your weight onto your back foot. You can’t reach the attacker with your free hand and if you lift your front foot you will be shoved even further off balance. All this while the attacker has a free hand that can strike you and both feet that can kick you or if the attacker is fast and skilled you might find yourself thrown to the ground. You are for the moment very vulnerable. Katatedori has worked because the attacker knew how to grab you. The misunderstanding comes when a bogus attacker stands in front of you and grabs your lower forearm leaving your hand and wrist maneuverable and not effecting you center or balance. Thus we have Aikido’s famous “sacrificial uke” an animal known to exist in many an Aikido dojo.

The reason Katatedori worked to displace your center and balance is because the attacker touched you first. You were practicing passive of reactive Aikido and now you must respond to the power of the attacker. You must react. To get to the point most Aikido students understand as Katatedori, that is the lower forearm grabbed with hand and wrist mobility, you must reach out to the attack and touch the attacker first. You place your lower forearm in the palm of the attacker hand a split second before you are grabbed. You touch the attacker first. If you do this then I guarantee you will move their center and you will be doing proactive or interactive Aikido and not reactive, as is so often the case. In all this you must study the dynamics of push – push and pull – push Aikido.
Dennis Hooker
www.shindai.com

[Chris Guzik]

Thank you Dennis!

You emphasized a point that is so often overlooked, not to mention very hard to see when watching technique demonstrated. Even when practicing what appear to be static beginnings (even worse for the observer to understand what is happening), I have seen skilled people grab and their partner suddenly goes down onto the mat...

You mentioned driving the hand and wrist into your partner's center to take their balance, and the appropriate angle of attack for such a grab.

Would you comment on the similar aspects of a cross-hand grab? I understand that such a grab might at times be used to prevent one's partner from drawing his weapon. For me it often seems more difficult to find as nice an angle of attack when grabbing in this way -- hence more important perhaps to take my partner's balance immediately.

Thank you,

[George Ledyard]

Good point! Let me enlarge on what my friend Hooker sensei has abley pointed out. This whole issue has to do with kokyu power. Kokyu power is often thought of as related to breathing. It does, but that is the narrow interpretation. In the larger sense it has to do with the natural flow of yin and yang back and forth in the universe. The flow of yin and yang is created by rotation.

So in the context of technique a useful concept is found in the Book on the Kashima Shin Ryu by Karl Friday. "Motion and Stillness are one". Not having studied this style I can't comment on exactly how they view this concept but from the standpoint of an Aikido practitioner I find the idea very useful.

When you are standing still you are not completely still. There is movement in the Mind. When O-Sensei stated that when he was surrounded by many attackers with spears he didn't worry because he was already behind them I think this is exactly what he meant. Even though he appeared to be in one place standing, his mind was moving, the physical technique of irimi was already done in his Mind before his opponenets ever saw the physical manifestation of the movement.

So in the case posed by Hooker Sensei of katatetori it is important to realize that it is the movement of the Mind that becomes the ki extension in the physical arm and when coupled with the most minute rotation of the hips, almost invisible at times, becomes a manifestation of kokyu. In other words the rotation is already happening when the attacker makes contact. At that instant his own energy catches the rotation and he is moved, his center caught. (If you have trained with Ikeda sensei you will recognize the familiar "Just catch it!" that can be so frustrating).

The reason the great senseis like Saotome Sensei and Ikeda Sensei can do this with very small, almost unobservable movement is due to what I call the "multplier principle". Imagine that you hold your bokken in one hand extended straight out. A one inch movement in your hips makes a several foot movment out at the tip of the sword. When your partner moves to grab you, the instant he connects he has become a part of your extension. So the smallest movement in your center becomes much larger by the time the wave of energy travels out to the extremity of the partner.

But this only happens with rotation. Rotation resolves conflict. If the attacker cathes you at a moment when your are static or passive, in Body and / or Mind you are caught by the energy of the attack. It is too late to attempt to engergize after the fact. And that starts with movement of the Mind and then becomes physical movement. So the movement of "pushing" that Dennis Hooker Sensei has pointed out is a reaching out of the Mind first, then becomes physical extension before the physical attack has even reached you. Then, if there is rotation at the moment of physical contact the will be no "conflict" and the attacker's center will be one with the defenderand will be moved almost without effort.

[Walker]

Another point brought up by Sugano Sensei is that katatedori approximates the distance and conditions of a shomen with the sword or bokken.

[Gil Gillespie]

This thread represents my main gripe with this whole website! Here we have two heavy hitters like Hooker Sensei and Ledyard Sensei posting serious thoughts that should be at the heart of a lively discourse and we collectively leave it wither on the vine. I was lucky enough to be in the dojo the evenings Hooker Sensei was exploring and presenting all this, but what actually is important to yooz guyz out there? Well you can lead a horse to water, but why bother. . .

[Mike Collins]

It's hard to have much to say when material is presented this well. Sometimes, all one can do is read it, digest it, and in my case at least, shut up and try to work on it.

[cguzik]

In an attempt to liven the discourse, I will throw in some things I have been noticing and/or trying to work on related to katatedori. Note that I am still working on just grasping (sorry, no pun intended) the basic principles of the attack, so forgive me if these thoughts seem somewhat random.

Hooker Sensei indicated that the attack is not passive. There have been times where my wrist was grabbed and I thought "this is a passive grab" -- until I tried to move and found I couldn't. So, while uke was not actively attempting kuzushi in grabbing, they were in fact affecting my balance. I think this pertains to the unity of motion and stillness as Ledyard Sensei pointed out. This is the kind of attack that may look passive to the observer.

Also, sometimes uke will not drive the grabbed wrist in towards my center but rather will direct it outward and downward (as in sumi otoshi) in order to throw me or put my face in a convenient position for atemi. So, one the one hand (sorry again) we have what might seem passive but is not, and on the other we have a variety of explicitly active ways the attack can be executed, depending on (or affecting) movement of center.

When Ikeda Sensei says "just catch it", it seems like in this catching there is just as much a leading component (nage must present the target and encourage uke to grab it) as there is a response to the motion of uke. Is it uke or nage who initiates the touch? (Sometimes uke realizes if he doesn't grab, there will be an atemi.)

The other day my teacher asked me "why are you following my wrist like that?"

Hmmm.

[Ron Tisdale]

Hello Mr. Gillespie,

Sometimes I actually do just shut up and listen...rare though that may be. I'd rather learn something by actually thinking about the comments here, rather than by trying to stumble through my own ideas. Sorry....

Ron Tisdale

[Mike Collins]

Having said what I did about shutting up and training, I now feel it incumbent upon me to make myself a liar.

I got a chance to train with Clint George this past weekend at a friend's dojo, great seminar, great teacher if ya get a chance.

Clint said, and in retrospect I've felt it, that at the level of a master, the grab for katate dori is not unlike picking up a sword; the person being grabbed becomes an extension of the person doing the grabbing. The point is to take over the grabbed person's center and move them around at will, or not allow them to move around at all.

I've been grabbed by an 8th dan, and he told me to show him my understanding of the technique. No matter which direction I intended and/or started to go, he was able to read that and minutely compensate, causing me to go nowhere at all. I've gotta believe that that constitutes a pretty sincere attack.

I realize that that was more a function of a major difference in levels, but it shows me that my only possibility of certainty that I am not held is to not allow myself to ever be grabbed. I need to offer a live wrist and with that wrist, reach out and do the grabbing myself.

I'm pretty sure that this was not much more than a re-hash of what's already been said, but maybe the way of saying it will make sense to someone who didn't grasp it before (like myself).

[BC]

What an excellent thread!

This thread reminds me of our Riji Cho's description of the aikido of the late Kissaburo Osawa Sensei. She described how, when one was uke for Osawa Sensei, uke never had to be told what attack to make or what way to attack. Essentially, Osawa Sensei, through the use of stance, body positioning and distance, presented uke with only one option for an attack. Therefore because of this the technique was already determined and over before uke even moved. I have been lucky enough to see this manifested occasionally with other senior aikidoka, and believe it is amazing to see. Right now I can only aspire to being able to do this someday.

I have an additional question regarding the topic of this thread:

Given uke's intent to capture nage's center during katatetori, does nage always need to move to redirect such a capture of his center right away, or can nage bring uke's attack/energy into their own center and then redirect it out in another direction? I believe I have observed such technique before, but, as is often the case, I could be incorrect.

[szczepan]

I'm very confused here....what's "passive or submissive attack" ?? For me it's a nonsens. How one can attack in passive way? It is very clear that an attack is to dominate or overpower opponent, isn't it?
What 's the big deal with katatedori? For me it's one of many different attacks, particularly adapted for beginners.In every attack we must apply kokyu principle, otherwise attack is weak and can't disturbe tori's balance.

But it seems that in many dojos they practice ONLY katatedori, and not striking attacks at all... :p

[George Ledyard]

Originally posted by szczepan
I'm very confused here....what's "passive or submissive attack" ?? For me it's a nonsens. How one can attack in passive way? It is very clear that an attack is to dominate or overpower opponent, isn't it?
What 's the big deal with katatedori? For me it's one of many different attacks, particularly adapted for beginners.In every attack we must apply kokyu principle, otherwise attack is weak and can't disturbe tori's balance.

But it seems that in many dojos they practice ONLY katatedori, and not striking attacks at all... :p

Hey what's the big deal? It's just serving tea... It's just arranging a bunch of flowers... It's just writing some characters on a piece of paper...

It's an art! There are layers and layers of lessons available from investigation of the most simple elements. Since the macro is contained within the micro, looking at a small thing like katatetori can give one all sorts of insights. But one has to be looking for insights for then to occur. If you think you've got it all figured out then that's the end of growth.

I am always surprised by your need to pooh pooh discussions that other people are having. Hooker Sensei and I have about 55 years or so of Aikido between us (more on his end than mine). Wouldn't it maybe occurr to you that if some experienced people think that this is an area worthy of discussion and others folks seem to think that it is an interesting topic to discuss, that maybe you are missing something?

Ok, since you also happen to think that Yamaguchi Sensei and Hikitsuchi Sensei didn't know what they were doing (discussion from another thread elsewhere) I am sure you can disregard almost anything we might have to say. But why jump in on the thread? Why don't you just let it go by, unworthy of your time? What is the need to "dis" the discussions that others are having?

[Mike Collins]

I think for the first time ever, I'm interested in Szczepan's opinion.

You said something to the effect that in all attacks we must use principle of kokyu. Can you describe the physical/dynamic form that the principle of kokyu takes in katatetori?

I'm very sincere in asking. I'd never thought of (what my understanding of kokyu is) using kokyo to grab, shomenuchi, yokomenuchi etcetera. I'd only, to this point, thought of attacking hard, never applying kokyu (which in the physical, I understand as a spherical rotation of force along a straight line). Is this just the grab starting from the little finger, and working a bit of a twist?

Talk a bit about this concept, so your earlier post will be more than dismissive.

[Dan Harden]

Mike
Just a few thoughts on your comments......

If you consider both breath power, and spherical (spiral really) rotation in a grab and practice that for years it will open up other ways to attack that become increasingly difficult for an opponent to deal with. After years of practice, your grab is no longer a stupid "closing of your fist" on flesh or cloth, it becomes something more. Train to grab a partner- simply grab him whether it be collar, sleave, leg and "dump him" rapidly with a very small move. It is a world of training, very boring and humbling training and you can get side tracked in it from your regular daily stuff- but the results are worth it-and it aint silly Dojo play. It works/ helps in freestyle with resisting non-compliant people and also in seizing techniques as a basis to close with or build upon.
Something as small as the shape you use (or get stuck with) with your hand to grab has the a correlation to the same way you can improve a head lock, or a jujutsu/ judo "fit-in" using your sides and the shape of your arms in relationship with your shoulders and body.

In seizing and many of your other techniques will improve as well. if you maintain a soft wrist and have a good understanding of your bodies centering abilities you can read and play a man's shoulders and his feet (helps in Judo randori ) to an outsider it doesn't look like much (I have had it challenged for just that reason) to an opponent YOU feel very strong and then very light- you never changed-they did. And all the while you are establising bases and Kuzushi. Studying how the human body works- spirals and spheres- will help you understand how to unhinge and unlock gross motor joints (hips and shoulders) without moving yours much. If used with distractions and basing, their postures come apart quite easily.
Anyway..so many things get glossed over in routine training that it becomes difficult to re-learn.

So, while a good deal of time is spent learning defense with what ever each art calls "Ju" or to others "Aiki" (to each his own); there are ways to learn how to attack softly that connect and generate much power, while at the same time makes you a more difficult target for anyone to use Ju or Aiki on for the simple reason that you are fighting relaxed. At some point in everyones career they need to start traiing to be a very difficult.....uke. In other words attack/seizing training. You may need to stop someone who is attacking someone else. Whole new set of parameters.

Setting aside time for training this way is a worthy goal. Having the training stay in control and productive instead of an unskilled free-for-all takes instruction and time. For some people it may require experimentation from their normal training. For that reason it will most probably be "outside" the mainstream.

Another whole discussion for another day is the development of an attacking mindset ......
For now; As Dennis has said -the difficuly lies in getting people to realize it.....and it starts by....grabing.

It ain't Ki- its unified body centering and bone alignment that does great stuff....it moves unwilling people

Dan

[Cady Goldfield]

Deleted (mission accomplished!) :)

[Mike Collins]

Dan- Thanks. There is a lot there that I've never consciously given any thought to. I think I've been practicing some of that, but without a consciousness of it, it's surely diminished.

Cool, new stuff to think about and work on.

This is the only point (for me) of EBudo or any BBS.

[Dennis Hooker]

Well this has certainly taken off and I’m pleased to read most of the input. I am always pleased to read George Ledyard Sensei and Harder Sensei. I should have been a little clearer in the opening remarks and stated I was thinking more along the lines of basic understand of karate dori. Of course as we grow we explore the more subtle aspect of coming together. That is if we first understand the basics and build a solid foundation from which to grow. My opening remakes were, I believe, in that vein or were intending to be at any rate. I was addressing how some folks seem to lose the idea of real attacks with extension of power and commitment to the attack. We do not need to injure our partner to achieve this since of reality. However without a true commitment how can we ever discover Kokyu technique. It is more than breath power and not so incomprehensible and obscure as we may sometimes believe. As one person extends energy the other accepts it. As one exhales, another inhales. It represents all the aspects of two bodies coming together, the In and Yo of that interaction. If the two bodies are In they repel one another, if the to bodies are Yo they repel one another. Only when they represent both in and Yo can they come together and find resolution in a balanced and harmonious way. Now for those that will jump on this statement like a duck on June bug let me say my idea of harmony is like achieving harmony with my sledgehammer and the spike I’m driving it into to ground. I can act in harmony with them or I can fight them into getting the job done. The difference is not in the ultimate result. The spike will be driven into the ground either way. The difference is in me. I will feel less agitated and more at peace with myself if I find a good working relationship with my tools and not an adversarial one. I use the weight of the hammer, the correct swing, gravity, the resistance of the earth against the point of the spike and the greater resistance of the spike against the hammer to achieve my goal. I only put as much of my energy into it as I need to direct all those other forces. However, I could fight the hammer through lifting it and slamming it down time and again but this would only wear me out and piss me off at the seemingly obstinate resistance of the ground and spike. Kokyu is simply working with the tools you have in the most efficient manner possible to achieve the quickest, best result for you. Be it the tools of budo or the tools of a gandydancer finding the best most efficient use of them results in kokyu.

[Mike Clarke]

Dan sensei,
Thanks!

[szczepan]

Originally posted by George Ledyard


Ok, since you also happen to think that Yamaguchi Sensei and Hikitsuchi Sensei didn't know what they were doing (discussion from another thread elsewhere) I am sure you can disregard almost anything we might have to say. But why jump in on the thread? Why don't you just let it go by, unworthy of your time? What is the need to "dis" the discussions that others are having?

I'm on vacation in Europe, so have no easy acess to Internet, sorry to be late.

I don't know why you feel offended every time when somebody has another opinion then yourself.Different opinions makes growing.

As it is public forum and I follow rules this forum , I dont see any problem to post on any topic I like.

And sometimes it is quite refreshing to hear some beginners talk even with 155 years of experience.

[szczepan]

Originally posted by Mike Collins
I think for the first time ever, I'm interested in Szczepan's opinion.

You said something to the effect that in all attacks we must use principle of kokyu. Can you describe the physical/dynamic form that the principle of kokyu takes in katatetori?

I'm very sincere in asking. I'd never thought of (what my understanding of kokyu is) using kokyo to grab, shomenuchi, yokomenuchi etcetera. I'd only, to this point, thought of attacking hard, never applying kokyu (which in the physical, I understand as a spherical rotation of force along a straight line). Is this just the grab starting from the little finger, and working a bit of a twist?

Talk a bit about this concept, so your earlier post will be more than dismissive.

I think Dan did a good job in his explanation.
I'll add, when you train you use all capacity you learned as tori to attack as uke and vice versa.It will boost you learning. EX: When you attack, you use all openings or create openings you learned as tori on physical and no-physical level...you may influence all senses of tori to create fake image of your attack to make a surprise...etc

May be my choice of word kokyu was too limited.In fact you use all you experience to make attack as difficult possible and to close all your own openings as much as possible.Katatedori attack is not exception.Ex:you cant use independently turning joints and changing distance or shifting weight...etc...you must use ALL in the same moment and in right direction and this direction will change many times during one attack depend of openings created in position of tori...
But basic is as Dan said learning how human body works..

[George Ledyard]

Originally posted by szczepan


I'm on vacation in Europe, so have no easy acess to Internet, sorry to be late.

I don't know why you feel offended every time when somebody has another opinion then yourself.Different opinions makes growing.

As it is public forum and I follow rules this forum , I dont see any problem to post on any topic I like.

And sometimes it is quite refreshing to hear some beginners talk even with 155 years of experience.

Actually, I have very fruitful exchanges with any number of people with whom I actively disagree. I do tend to not bother when I think the thread is uninteresting or I think the person posting is really out to lunch. I do try to avoid posting when other people seem to be enjoying their discussion and I happen to think the discussion is silly. Telling people you think they are silly just makes enemies and is unnecessary.

I think it is actually very funny that you consciously or unconciously act as my foil so frequently. I suspect that in terms of the kind of Aikido we espouse technically we are actually in agreement more or less. I was sorry to hear that you aren't coming to the Expo, I was hoping that we could meet. Our exchanges I often find myself taking the intellectual or philosphical side while you champion the side of shut up and train. Which is funny because around here (Seattle area) we are considered to be the "hard" guys.

Anyway, there's nothing personal. As I say, overall I suspect that you and I have more in common than we might with many other members of the Aikido community. Neither one of us is interested in seeing Aikido degenerate into a dance. Both of us are passionately devoted to our training. That gives us far more in common than we have to disagree about. So hopefully we will get a chance to meet at some point. I can show you what I have been taught by Saotome Sensei and you can show me what you have leanred from your teachers. It's a lot easier to exchange ideas in person over some wine or beer than to do it via the net from thousands of miles apart. It's always too one dimensional. Have a great vacation! I wish I was on vacation in Europe.

[Mike Collins]

While I think that what Dan had to say was useful and worth pursuing in practice, I'm not sure that anything he said had much to do with kokyu (at least as I understand it).

I understand kokyu to be a sort of a spherical and thereby spiral shape of force as in kokyu dosa, kind of uprooting by means of an ascending spiral through the elbow, or in morote dori kokyu nage, there is a "drawing" and a forward spiral both almost simultaneously.

I can even see how this shape of force can be used in katate dori; what I don't really grasp is how that takes shape in yokomenuchi, shomenuchi, straight punch etcetera.

Or am I translating kokyu wrongly or too narrowly?

Attacking sincerely is important to me, and if there is a whole other layer of understanding I need to get to in attacking properly, that's useful to know.

I do think that attcaks should be "modulated" to nage's level of ability to deal with it. I would never consider plowing through a newer person with the kind of attack I feel perfectly right in giving my teacher(s).

[Mike Collins]

In re-reading Hooker Sensei's post, I come to the conclusion that just coming in well and sincerely with any strike, at the level of intensity that my ukemi is able to deal with is correct. That is what I get from it, and what I've been thinking for a long time, but I want to get Szczepan's take on that. Maybe I've been doing it wrong.

As to kokyu in grabbing katatedori, I still don't know if what I understand kokyu to be, would be appropriate in applying to katatetori in every situation. And I guess that's what I was responding to in Szczepan's earlier post. From katatedori, applying kokyu (as a form of dynamic force), its seems to me, would almost have to end up in yonkyo or a form of sumi otoshi, and I doubt that that would give a newer person a good chance to understand how to get to their technique. Yes, an intelligent attack, ala Hooker sensei's first post is in order, but modulated, and to some extent static (no real forward or back energy), while coming from the appropriate oblique angle, but engaged to allow a less experienced nage to learn the technique is appropriate, I think.

My disagreement is with the concept that resistance and conflict are necessary and/or appropriate as a steady diet of training. It certainly has it's place, but a more experienced uke should be able to teach proper throwing technique with his/her ukemi almost more eloquently than with their nage skills. That requires a form of cooperation that is appropriate in the training process at times.

Between somewhat advanced peers, a healthy level of disagreeableness is both healthy and necessary to good understanding of what works, and how. But not as an everyday thing.

I do think we (okay, well at least I), need to make room for a lot of possible ways of seeing things while maintaining our respective perspectives.