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Kit LeBlanc
24th July 2001, 20:17
Okay everybody.

I am looking for the names to conjure with in Judo newaza. Any leads to more names, details, books, videos notes, research, etc. etc. would be helpful.

So far I have heard the following:

Old Timers:

Kanemitsu ?, Ushijima ? , and Oda Tsunetani.


I know there is a video out there somewhere on Oda's newaza, and EJ Harrison wrote a book "Judo on the Ground" about Oda's teachings. The video I saw was being sold in Europe and I couldn't seem to locate a U.S. supplier.

Draeger mentions that Mifune was a strong proponent of newaza as well, but his sterling tachiwaza seems to have eclipsed that. Anyone else have anything to share on that?

And of course the Kosen judo folks like Kimura and some more recent folks following in the Kosen path. I know of the Budokan video series and the new ones put out by Quest.

Today:

Kashiwazaki, and I have heard that a Neil Adams was/is a demon on the ground. Any others to look for today?


Kit

johan smits
25th July 2001, 08:44
Hi Kit,

In the Kawaishi system of Judo, leg locks and neck/spine locks were/are part of the system. Kawaishi published some books I think you'll find some examples in My Method of Judo by Kawaishi, originally published in French, translated by E.J. Harrison.

I think I have an adress in Paris where you will probably find the Oda video, I don't have it at the office if you want to I can mail it tommorow.

I heard from an old-timer judoka that Gunji Koizumi was also very good in ne-waza (his first style was Tenjin Shinyo Ryu).

Best Regards,

Johan Smits

Kit LeBlanc
25th July 2001, 10:21
Johan,

Thanks. How's the Xing Yi?

I remember Tani was supposed to be really adept at newaza, and he did Fusen-ryu I believe. Overall it sounds like the old timers were more balanced between tachi waza and newaza.

I saw the French tape. I couldn't figure out how to order it here in the States....


Kit

johan smits
25th July 2001, 10:41
Hi Kit,

Didn't do a lot of training lately in Xing Yi, mostly standing post.

About the tape, I think you can contact the firm and order it directly. I'll send you the adress tomorrow.
By the way I think there's a Chinese style which specialises in ground fighting it's called Dog- boxing. Can't remember the Chinese name, I'll check.

I think both Koizumi and Tani taught at the Budokwai in London, they may still have material. I saw a tape with Koizumi once, he showed some ground work, not too much though. What you could see is that Koizumi was immensely relaxed when he executed his techniques, at some times he almost looked slack, also in newaza. I haven't seen that very often.

Best,

Johan

Kit LeBlanc
25th July 2001, 10:48
Johan,

Now, isn't the essence of Xing Yi found in the standing post after all? That is hard to accept an hour into San Ti Shi, I know.... Heh heh heh.

The Chinese art you are talking about is Gou Quan. I have heard "Di Tang Men" as well, but not sure it is the same art. It is not "wrestling" newaza. More kicking from the ground, sweeps, and tumbling.

Thanks in advance for the address.

Kit

MarkF
25th July 2001, 10:59
Originally posted by johan smits
By the way I think there's a Chinese style which specialises in ground fighting it's called Dog- boxing. Can't remember the Chinese name, I'll check.


Dog with a hair lip:

mark mark. mark mark

Mark mark.

I know, but when I first heard that as a youngster, I laughed so hard I didn't realize on whose a$$ the joke was.

johan smits
25th July 2001, 13:38
Mark,

It's funny in a way but I do hope you threw the culprit repeatedly with whatever- otoshi after he made the joke.

Was it in one of your posts that Kito Ryu jujutsu being practised in the USA was mentioned, some time ago? If so, is it still practised?

Best Regards,

Johan Smits

johan smits
25th July 2001, 14:23
Hi Mark,

In a way it's funny but I do hope you have thrown the culprit repeatedly with whatever-otoshi after he made that joke.

I have a question, some time ago Kito Ryu jujutsu was mentioned in (I believe) some of your posts. If I remember well it is (or was) praticed in the USA. Have you got any more info on this?

Best Regards,

Johan Smits

johan smits
25th July 2001, 14:29
:mad:

I really,really hate it when this happens.

Sorry.

Johan

Kit LeBlanc
26th July 2001, 00:53
Russ,

How could I forget Maeda?

Don't say that too loud! There are probably some lurkers around who won't want to hear that.

Funny, I have seen everything on the web and in conversation from high ranking judo/jujutsuka saying Kosen judo was a myth (don't tell Kimura, or I guess the Budokan, since they have four tapes out on this mythical method....) to those saying there is no basis to claim that BJJ is related to Kosen judo, because BJJ advanced the technique so much further, BJJ incorporated techniques from the guard (dojime), sweeps, "helicopters" etc.

Then of course the occasional BJJ'er has seen the Budokan Kosen judo videotapes, including I have heard some teachers, and been surprised to see all those techniques that the Brazilians supposedly innovated, being done by old Japanese guys who had been doing it for years.

Don't get me wrong, I have the utmost respect for BJJ, and I practice it as well as judo. I think many BJJ masters have done with their tokui waza on the ground what so many others have done in the past...furthered the art, added new dimensions, and new expressions to what they do. I just don't see it as so innovative and different from judo, particularly in light of Kosen judo, as so many pure BJJ devotees do.

Kit

Ben Reinhardt
26th July 2001, 07:52
Originally posted by Kit LeBlanc
Okay everybody.

I am looking for the names to conjure with in Judo newaza. Any leads to more names, details, books, videos notes, research, etc. etc. would be helpful.

So far I have heard the following:

Old Timers:

Kanemitsu ?, Ushijima ? , and Oda Tsunetani.


I know there is a video out there somewhere on Oda's newaza, and EJ Harrison wrote a book "Judo on the Ground" about Oda's teachings. The video I saw was being sold in Europe and I couldn't seem to locate a U.S. supplier.

Draeger mentions that Mifune was a strong proponent of newaza as well, but his sterling tachiwaza seems to have eclipsed that. Anyone else have anything to share on that?

And of course the Kosen judo folks like Kimura and some more recent folks following in the Kosen path. I know of the Budokan video series and the new ones put out by Quest.

Today:

Kashiwazaki, and I have heard that a Neil Adams was/is a demon on the ground. Any others to look for today?


Kit

Nobuyuki Sato, known as "Mr. Ne Waza". Kashiwazaki as you mention. Neil Adams ditto. Okano wrote a whole "Vital Judo" book on ne waza which is excellent, but out of print in English. There have been many ne waza technicians in recent and not so recent history (Russian and European as well).

Ben Reinhardt

MarkF
26th July 2001, 08:40
Originally posted by Kit LeBlanc
Funny, I have seen everything on the web and in conversation from high ranking judo/jujutsuka saying Kosen judo was a myth (don't tell Kimura, or I guess the Budokan, since they have four tapes out on this mythical method....) to those saying there is no basis to claim that BJJ is related to Kosen judo, because BJJ advanced the technique so much further, BJJ incorporated techniques from the guard (dojime), sweeps, "helicopters" etc.


So how and from whom did the Kosen myth come, anyway? High-ranking can mean big talking more often than not these days. Ground fighting certainly isn't a myth (well, if you base your knowlege of judo on the Olympics as your example of judo, I suppose in a way, ground fighting can look more like a myth than it is in reality). But even here many matches were won on the ground. Go back in the records of Sydney and see how many were won with kami shiho gatame (all matches).

My guess is that judo being what it is, some folks take to groundwork just as others do trying to maintain a standing tai, and want little or nothing to do with it (ne waza).

But what would make a school of Kodokan judo which concentrates more on groundwork seem so extraordinary?

All three of my dojo on the way up spent about forty percent of randori on the ground, and escaping was taught as much as maintaining your balance and center over uke.
*****

So how did the myth really begin and are BJJers responsible for this? Is there a reason judoka would deny it and for what purpose?

Anyone with an answer is welcome to e-squash all rumors and exaggerations.


Mark

efb8th
27th July 2001, 02:55
Hi, Kit.

Kazuzo Kudo's DYNAMIC JUDO (grappling techniques) is the best illustrated, most comprehensive newaza book I have ever seen.

The under-floor photos through glass really show the details. In addition, Kudo adds the appropriate defenses and counters for nearly all his waza. The book is a bit pricey (appx. $100) but a paperback is available, and only slightly abridged, for about $25-50. The companion text is just as good and covers nage. Splendid stuff!


Regards

Jack B
27th July 2001, 19:01
Usejima in the fifties was the best.

Shirai was very good and taught a ground self-defence system.

Jack Bieler
Denton TX

DavidMasaki
1st August 2001, 15:30
Mifune's The Canon of Judo also has a section on groundwork and many of the techniques are exactly the same as what I learned in GJJ. There's lots of triangle chokes and other attacks from the guard position. For example:

http://www2.hawaii.edu/~mdavid/canon/163.jpg

DavidMasaki
2nd August 2001, 08:24
I have the entire Canon of Judo scanned. Email me if you're interested in a copy. I did research on it a few years back and consulted with a lawyer that was also interested in judo, and as far as we could determine, I'm not violating any copyright laws because there are no current copyrights on the book due to the laws at the time of publication.

MarkF
2nd August 2001, 11:17
Hi, David,
I'm not too sure on the copyright of that book (this is also in reply to your email). I asked a writer/researcher about it and he said Canon would still be under copyright, however, the Yokoyama book would not be.

This doesn't mean he is right, but it may be a good idea to consult someone who specializes in copyright law.

That said, I'd probably be interested, as well, but I'm not sure it should be advertised here until the copyright issue is put to bed.

As you did email me about it, I think that would be the best way to go about it.

Have you asked in the "media" or "research" forums about it?
****

As to what that book is going for, there is a lot of demand and very little supply. The last auction I saw it went for four-hundred plus dollars, with more than two-dozen bids. I wouldn't be surprised if it is going for five hundred or more. EJ Harrison's books, depending on subject matter are priced at over five-hundred, with one or two over seven hundred (One of the bigger book houses).

If you wish, I can move this to "media" or whichever you think would be best suited. I could move it in a way that would leave a link here, for posting, having people posting from both forums about the copyright issue on the same thread. Of course, you may want to ask in "media" yourself, or research, too.

Just a thought.

I get goosebumps just thingking about it.:burnup:

Mark

DavidMasaki
2nd August 2001, 12:03
Hi Mark,

I've already extensively researched the matter and consulted with a lawyer who came to the same conclusion as I did. However, this was in 1997, and I understand copyright laws have changed since then. What we came up with was that under the laws at the time the book was last published, copyrights had to be registered and renewed every so many years for the copyright holder to keep their copyright. We did our own search via online databases and contacted the US copyright office and paid them to do a search and they provided us with printed documentation that they had no registered copyright on the book. The lack of registration should mean that the copyright has been lost.

According to http://www.loc.gov/copyright/circs/circ15a.pdf which is up to date with current copyright law, I believe Canon of Judo with it's last printing in 1961 and no registration falls under:

"Works originally copyrighted between January 1, 1950, and December 31, 1963: Copyrights in their first 28-year term on January 1, 1978, still had to be renewed in order to be protected for the second term. If a valid renewal registration was made at the proper time, the second term will last for 67 years. However, if renewal registration for these works was not made within the statutory time limits, a copyright originally secured between 1950 and 1963 expired on December 31st of its 28th year, and protection was lost permanently."

Anyways, as I discussed with you before, I'm really not doing this to make any money. The only reason I am asking for a tiny amount (which I've only discussed via private email) is to cover my costs and so that everyone and their mother doesn't hit me up for a copy. :) If anyone knows any better about the copyright issue, please tell me so I can avoid any potential problems. However, I do feel that I did make a diligent effort to determine its copyright status.


David

efb8th
2nd August 2001, 15:07
Hi, Mark.

Since you mentioned the Yokoyama project, I figured I should clarify. The Library of Congress web site states that no book originally published prior to 1923 has surviving US copyright, so my research was a no-brainer. Yokoyama & Oshima published Judo Kyohan (Japanese) in 1906, and Judo (English) in 1915. Even I can figure an eight-year minimum window on this one.

(In my "Lemme-buy-ya-a-cuppa-coffee" consultation with my lawyer/student, he heartily concurs.)

Regards,

efb8th
2nd August 2001, 15:42
Hi, All.

After posting this morning, I checked 21 North Main (my favorite web book seller) and found a copy of Mifune's Canon Of Judo for $48!!

As I am strapped, I thought the e-Budo gang might want a crack at it. www.21northmain.com Good luck!

Regards,

Sabaki
2nd August 2001, 18:52
Vital Judo Grappling is the best Newaza book.

tommysella
3rd August 2001, 06:20
This is THE book when it comes to Ne-waza! It is a mystery why this book havn't been reprinted.

Tommy

MarkF
3rd August 2001, 09:48
Hi, Ed,
I couldn't find 'Canon' there, but perhaps I didn't use the search function correctly? You don't think it was sold by now, do you? Nah, couldn't be. No one knows about that book.

David,
I was only thinking of whether posting it for sale here is a copyright violation. I asked about the copyright when I received your email, so I had thought to wait a bit to see.

But if you would like to post it here in the Judo forum, there is no problem with that. I can stick it to the top for a couple of weeks or so, and perhaps something will come of it.

Let me know if you would like to do that. If so, write the post, and send me a PM or email to let me know it is there so I can stick it to the top.

I did not mean for it to come out as it did, I was only checking it out because of the difference in age with the Yokoyama book.

Mark

efb8th
4th August 2001, 00:48
Hi, Mark.

Sorry for the late info. I was hoping you could jump on it before the net weasels attacked. Better luck next time.

Regards,