PDA

View Full Version : Water Training



PHILBERT
26th July 2001, 05:03
How many of you here practice in the swimming pool? Why do you think this is or isnt important? I saw this question over at KungFuOnline.com and thought I would bring it here. (Since they acted a little off topic over there).

What do you think are ups and downs of training in water?

The only ups I can think of is it builds physical strength (having to move through the water adds extra pressure against the body, making it harder to punch, kick) and that when you get stronger in the water, you can move faster OUT of the water. Kind of like jogging with weights. Your body would be use to jogging with an extra 20 pounds (providing that is how much you use. I use about 15 pounds). Then when you run without the weight, you move faster.

So what do you think are ups and downs of water training? I myself can't think of any downs. Maybe you can.

Scott Rehark

Ermac6
26th July 2001, 05:11
When I go swimming I try doing kicks in the water, does that count for training? I find it very fun to do and it actually is a good physical exercise to do in the water. Just think, if you screw up in the water and loose balance you wont hurt yourself, hehe :)

Brent Leach

Ermac6
26th July 2001, 06:20
hehe, goto lake superior, they have some waves

Brent Leach

NoMan
26th July 2001, 16:14
Upsides: Specificity:: You really can't train punching at air full speed, it hurts like hell on your elbows. What develops is a natural reaction to start slowing down the punch towards the end of the extension. In water, you don't have that problem, so you can punch and your little heart away.

Downsides: Specific Adaption by Imposed Demands: You train slow, you get slow. Water training has a strange neurological effect because your strength curve underwater is much different than when you are above water punching. Plus, it is very hard to move lightening fast under water. So, if this type of training were done on a continual basis, without supplemental training, you'd probably be throwing really slow punches. I doubt that'd be a problem unless you're an absolute madman who trains for hours everyday in the pool.

I do it as well, it's just for fun though.

PHILBERT
26th July 2001, 19:54
I have to agree with W.Kent Bergstrom. I don't see how one will make slower punches outside of water. If you are in a life or death fight (in a nightclub, bar, in an alley, outside your house, etc.) I doubt you'll make very slow punches. I always figured that since you are punching underwater, the resistance will make you stronger than before.



Scott Rehark

NoMan
26th July 2001, 20:42
Originally posted by W.Kent Bergstrom
Please call me Kent,

I've been into taiji for 11 years now and slow makes you slow doesn't compute.
But for the benefit of the doubt I am suspecting that it was meant in the form resistive exercise.
back in the 70's the "American Combat Karate" systems of Rich Barathy used slow resistance weight training in their development with a lot of other types of work and slowing you down was not an option. People became blazing fast as a result. Plus powerful. I don't think Barathy's stone break records have been beaten to date.(20+ inches of granite)

Kent

It's one of the seven basic "laws", (since all forms of training are pseudo-sciences) that accompanies all training. Those laws/principles are as follows.

The principle of Individual Differences: The same two people will not respond at the same rate on the same training program. Basically, this law just says that we are all genetically different.

The Overcompensation Principle: Lacerated tissue becomes scar tissue, calluses build up on your hand as an adaptive response to friction, etc. It's a fancy way of saying your body overcompensates any form of stress to adapt to it as part of a survival mechanism.

Overload: To get bigger/stronger/faster/ etc., you have to make your body do more than it normally does in any of those areas.

The SAID Principle: Your muscles and respective subcellular components will adapt in highly specific ways based solely on the demands you place on them. If you want to get more explosive you have to train more explosively. Here's the most obvious example. Do Olympic sprinters run fast or slow during practice? If you want to have the greatest possible limit strength, you have to heavier weights than if you wanted local muscular endurance, (capillarization and mitochondrial adaptations).

The thing with with this principle is that your body is somewhat relentless with it. If you do aerobics and anaerobic exercise, you will suffer slightly in both areas, (depending upon which one you lean more towards). Hence the reason all pro-athlete's have periodization training schedules. During certain parts they train for general strength, others they train for explosiveness, others they train for specific skills. Most beginners try to do it, "all at once" so to speak, train for speed/flexibility/strength/endurance/local endurance, and they just burn themselves out in a few weeks.

The use/disuse principle: One of the more obvious ones, you don't train, you don't gain. It takes less time to become untrained than it does to become trained, known as the "Law of Reversibility". Fortunately, since muscles retain a memory, (physiologically speaking), you can get retrained faster than it takes to get there a first time.

The specificity principle: States that you must move from a generalized (foundational) training program into a more specific one placing focus on your highly specified training objectives. It also states that you must do movements that best simulate what you are trying to do to get better at them. I.e. you develop your squat strength better if you squat than if you leg press, even though they recruit most of the same muscles.

The GAS principle: Stands for "General Adaption Syndrome". It just states that there are three stages you go through when training.

1.) "Alarm" stage caused by the application of intense training stress. (Overload)
2.) The "resistance" stage where our body's adapt to whatever we are doing, (or not doing), (Overcompensation, SAID, use/disuse)
3.) "Exhaustion" stage. Stage where if we persist in applying stress we will exhaust our reserves and then be forced to stop training due to injury, (macrotrauma or microtrauma).

The reason his group probably got faster was because of the simple fact that a strong muscle will always contract faster than a weak one. I'm also willing to bet when you said, "Slowing down wasn't an option", you meant that they had to do fast movements as well. I doubt that they were training slow for 10 months, and then one day they had to run in there and be speed-demons.

However, several pro-athletes in America used to not weight train (You can substitute weight train for anything) because their counterparts who did train with them always achieved a "slower" general state. The reason was a combination of things, training only certain prime movers, not training specifically, etc. But, the primary reason was they only trained to increase their limit strength, ignoring the 6 other key points on the strength curve that determine how fast you are.

So, point being, if you only train for limit strength, or any "resistance" exercises like that, you'll get slower unless you focus on training for speed as well. Take a sprinter and make him start running laps for a month. Don't let him do any sprints. Tell me what happens to his time on the sprints. He trained to be slow, his body changed enzymatically to allow that, and he gets slower. I'm willing to bet that it works the same in martial arts. Your body will change enzymatically to meet with whatever demands you are placing on it.

Like I said though, this depends on you not doing any other form of training. As stated, if you JUST train underwater moving really slow, you're going to get really slow. Most people do other forms of training to keep them sharp.