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shinja
26th July 2001, 22:07
I have to admit to being sorely lacking in knowledge about Japanese sword arts.

I was out looking around (I actually ran across this looking for info on Toyama Ryu.) and came across something called chanbara (goshindo) at http://www.samuraisports.com. They claim to incorporate Toyama Ryu into their curriculum.

What can any of you tell in the way of what it actually is and what real value it holds - i.e. is it actual swordsmanship or is it really just playing? Also, have any of the more traditional schools incorporated this type of sparring practice (outside of kendo, that is)?

Thanks!

Meik Skoss
27th July 2001, 01:24
If you're talking about "spotsu chambara" (as seems likely from your description), there's absolutely nothing remotely "martial" to it, it's literally child's play (J.: samurai gokko, the equivalent of a kid in the U.S. playing Cowboys and Indians). Not an awful lot of verisimilitude there, no?

Indeed, there are a number of koryu that have a form of freestyle training as part of their practice regimen. Each ryu has its own way of expressing it, but ones that come to mind are Tatsumi-ryu (tojutsu and yawara), Tenjin Shinyo-ryu (jujutsu), and Shinkage-ryu (kenjutsu). That's not to say it is done an awful lot in this day and age, but they do have forms of training like that. It's not a lot of fun, for the most part, and it's rather dangerous. It's downright uncomfortable, at the very least: one WILL be struck, thrown, or "cranked" (think jointlocks) and it WILL hurt!

Hope this helps.

Earl Hartman
27th July 2001, 01:30
Just a quick addendum to Meik's post: the word "chanbara" is intended to imitate the sounds of swords clashing (chan-chan bara-bara, or "clash-bang, clash-bang"). It usually refers to a genre of action movies, period pieces that chronicle the exploits of swordsmen, the equivalent of our "swashbucklers". In short, anything that calls itself "chanbara", regardless of how "realistic" the sword fighting may appear to be, bears no relationship to the real thing.

shinja
27th July 2001, 02:01
:smilejapa

Thanks for the input guys.

I kinda wondered about this.

The website talks quite a bit about chanbara but also talks about a system called Goshindo. Here's a quote:

30 years ago Japanese martialists and sword masters created an improved training offshoot from the Toyama style. The Founder, Tanabe Tetsundo and some of the strongest swordsmen in Japan called this new school of thought, Goshindo.

Anyway......

Thanks again!

WarriorAssasin
27th July 2001, 03:24
GOSHINDO - is the path of self defence

This is NOT a martial art. But a sport invented
for kids - Hence kids are the main constituent.

I have seen a demo of this and it has some value
in terms of cardio and distancing to a degree. But
try doing any of it with

(a) Real sword - NO WAY
(b) Bokken - NO WAY
(c) Hanbo - NO WAY

So it has no value if you are training in the way of the sword.

Anyway - TOYAMA RYU is 1902 or 1912 origin anyway so the basis
is broken down down down down - what can come from this next
????? maybe fighting with chopsticks as swords ?

NOT IMPRESSED:redhot:

Don Cunningham
27th July 2001, 03:29
Here is a link to my web site about chambara, more commonly referred to as jidai-geki or "historical drama." I've listed a few of my favorites with screen captures here:

Chambara! (http://www.concentric.net/~Budokai/chambara/chambara.htm)

There's even a fun test of your knowledge about jidai-geki .

ghp
29th July 2001, 19:11
Just to add to Meik's and Earl's response ... (all true, by the way).

Tanabe sensei was once a student affiliated with Nakamura Taizaburo sensei and he is well acquainted with Toyama Ryu, but I don't know his ranking; I have also heard he is ranked in jukendo. If you have Nakamura sensei's book Nippon-to Tameshigiri no Shinzui (Tokyo:Kodansha, 1985) you'll see Tanabe sensei's photo in a few of the color photos. I believe he runs a private security company "Kokusai Boei ...." or something like that.

Regards,
Guy

PS ... Earl, I haven't forgotten about meeting up with you at Moffett -- I'll contact you later this week.

carl mcclafferty
29th July 2001, 19:40
Warriorassassin

How about signing your post and you're wrong about Toyama going down, down, down because of its age. Nakamura Taizaburo Sensei is still alive and cutting at 91. He, Sato Sensei, Suzuki Sensei from the IBF and people like Hataya Mitsuo Sensei do a great job keeping Toyama straight. Coming from a bujinkan practitioner that was kind of a strange comment.

Carl McClafferty

ghp
30th July 2001, 00:40
Warriorassassin,


Anyway - TOYAMA RYU is 1902 or 1912 origin anyway so the basis broken down down down down - what can come from this next????? maybe fighting with chopsticks as swords ?

Adding to what Carl stated, Toyama Ryu Iai was established in 1925 "...to teach swordsmanship that could be used on the modern battlefield...." (Kenjutsu Kyohan Shokai, Tokyo: Rikugun Toyama Gakko, 1925).

Simple, yes. Deadly -- decidedly yes! And it was broken down to not only swordsmanship, but also dismounted bayonet (ohashi waza is "hiden" and may not be taught outside the Toyama Alumni Association). The bayonet training is/was based on French bayonet drills that were later reinforced with sojutsu.

Regards,
Guy

bob elder
3rd August 2001, 16:39
I have heard that Tanabe Sensei trained with Nakamura Sensei some time ago. He founded Chanbara. Hataya Mitsuo Sensei trained in Toyama Ryu under Mr. Tanabe. There is a dojo in So. Fla. that does chanbara and I understand they are going to do a demo at our tai kai. FWIW. Bob Elder Ps anyone who thinks Toyama Ryu isn't deadly is seriously delusional.