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Doug Bigelow
28th July 2001, 15:52
Just wondered if it was to conceal the knife until use or to make instructors look good.

George Ledyard
29th July 2001, 02:32
many people cosnider the reverse grip to be better for close range work. In that position you can use the blade to trap as well as cut and thrust.

Also, in that position it is much harder for someone to strip the knife out of the grip for a disarm.

James Keating has a couple of videos devoted to reverse grip knife work.
http://www.combattech.com/default.cfm

Tetsutaka
29th July 2001, 04:09
The reverse grip serves a very potent purpose: it shows you who to avoid -- namely any "expert" in a magazine ad in that reverse-grip-grimmace-pose, accompanied by the nearly ubiquitous camouflage suit. :laugh:

kenjgood
31st July 2001, 04:39
Come on....everthing is designed to make the instructors look good!!!!


Seriously, a reverse grip also allows you to align your entire skeleton behind the blade for redirections against longer weapons and it also facilitates throwing the opponent. (assuming you are using a single edged knife).

Respectfully,

Dan Harden
31st July 2001, 06:30
Men I have played with (not all) prefer point forward and cut and thrust-myself included. Its a shorter distance between a protected point and flesh.
Reverse grip for close in work and weapon deflection would not be a choice I would make (and I trained that way for years) if the other fellow had a knife as well.

That said; there are all manner of disarms and reversals, deflections that lead to artery strikes, evasions and deceptions, ways that can make a path to the legs and torso blah blah blah-done with a reverse grip- including using their own weapon; some including locking and throwing with it while cutting, some from a kodachi oriented Koryu and others from more modern combatives ..... Looks real sweet in a dojo setting, even impressive for most observers- Knife to knife, in freestyle, at speed, particularly when the other fellow can play well, I wouldn't go near those techniques.

Knife work is very fast and there are deceptions involved to lead you out or distract your intent-you can get cut very fast and not even know it- hell you can cut someone and not have it slow them down for several very precious moments,while they are killing you. Working Distance/timing, cutting and thrust is more in the realm of reality for my tender hide and taste. But hey its only one man's opinion.

As it is in many martial pursits-there are many techniques and principles to apply. When you place them up against a man intent on their undoing and having the wherewithall to see it through.
You frequently walk away with a jaundiced eye
At speed against someone skilled-you may have one chance or perhaps two- and its over.
best to train that way
Dan

Kit LeBlanc
31st July 2001, 19:34
Originally posted by Dan Harden


As it is in many martial pursits-there are many techniques and principles to apply. When you place them up against a man intent on their undoing and having the wherewithall to see it through.
You frequently walk away with a jaundiced eye
At speed against someone skilled-you may have one chance or perhaps two- and its over.
best to train that way
Dan

VERY nicely put, Dan.

In a KNIFE FIGHT, I think I would prefer forward grip and double edged. Normally I bring a gun to knife fights, but considering the ubiquity of tactical folders a knife fight is a very real possibility.

But I think that there is a tactical consideration going on with the reverse grip.

Put the operator in tactical vest, with long weapon (rifle) and sidearms (handgun and tactical knife), the reverse grip makes more sense for the CQB application that it may be used in.

First off, with reverse grip it may in fact be faster to access and get into play than it would be forward grip, and faster than a handgun, particularly when the bad guy is right on me. Some of this depends how you mount your blade on your kit, however.

So, bad guy grabs my gun, or bad guy tackles me, distance is instantly closed, and I draw my blade. Understand I am talking about a time when firing my primary weapon is not possible, for whatever reason but weapon retention, or just plain combat, makes deadly force an option.

At contact distance I may prefer the blade in reverse grip because now we are basically grappling, and I an use the edge of the blade against his throat etc. simply by drawing my forearm along it consistent with normal grappling maneuvers. With the lack of space I think in many cases the angle is better reverse handed, and I can use it palm up or palm down for different applications. I can insert the blade at anatomical points as presented to me, pass my arm under his armpit and insert blade at his back (or front) etc. or use the non-sharp edge to hook him at his neck or shoulder or knee for example, and now I have the grappling "handle" that Ken is talking about to assist with taking the guy down.

Based on these usages I wonder if the older kodachi and tanto methods, if meant for battlefield application where the primary weapon is neutralized through angle, grabbing, whatever, take the same matters into consideration.

Kit

Aaron Fields
31st July 2001, 21:33
I have no answer for this question, but I have a goofy story.

I went on a call a couple of days back where a 20 year old male had been stabbed multiple times with a butcher knife (not sure which grip was used.) He had tried to walk away after the stabbing and had left a fair amount of blood behind in the process. We were held in stagging until the blue canarys er....police had secured the area (hehehe Kit) . We show up and start working on this guy, as we are working he turns and straight faced says "got a smoke." To which we respond .."no we don't and you can't smoke right now." Yet his brother (who ironically had stabbed him we later come to find out) steps up and gives him one, as if there is no problem. Ahh brotherly love.......:toast:

kenjgood
1st August 2001, 00:35
You are my hero on this one...

Didn't want to go into the employment issues, but you hit them on the head. I usually reserve this conversation for military types as most police officers I deal with are constrained from utilizing a edged weapon as you described.

Dan Harden
4th August 2001, 18:17
Hey ya Kit

I won't discuss the various techniques for reverse hand other then to say I agree with most of what you wrote, and have trained and taught in that area for years (why you guys go into detail of technique for the world to read here is beyond me) ;)



Kit writes

Based on these usages I wonder if the older kodachi and tanto methods, if meant for battlefield application where the primary weapon is neutralized through angle, grabbing, whatever, take the same matters into consideration.

****************

There are enough examples of different koryu applications to subdue the primary weapon through angles and controling both it and you to lead into Kumi uchi techniques to say the approach- if not the individual techniques- are common. How Kumi Uchi segue into modern combatives would be up to the exponent to explore. In the ones I have trained in I think they segue quite well. Whether using your knife or assuming you had an immobilizing technique or kuzushi to prevent him from drawing and you could use his. Most that I have personally seen are reverse hand as I mentioned earlier. Some are pretty lame (regardless of what they say) some belong in fantasy land. Others are effective. I was never overly impressed with their knife work although I loved their jujutsu so forgive me.

My point is that were an opponent to close the distance I agree that reverse draw is "right there" and the skeletal positioning and anatomical matching for inside work is best-you can fill in the blanks on technques I won't in this venue. :)
Your comment about "them" choosing to close the distance on "you" is more appropriate for the venue we're discussing, but even then it is dicey since you do not know about HIS weapons. It is the how and why of getting there and then getting the hell out of there in the first place that I contend with. I simply feel that "choosing" to close the distance with knives is not a place anyone should go to. We have had this discusion before about being forced to roll around on the ground (and training to work that if need be), VS choosing to do so. We had a great discussion on LE taking, VS being taken; to the ground.


In a classical sense, having trained with Kodachi to stop swords in Kata. It is one hellashis thing to do in free style "outside" of Kata-right up there with the Ueshiba unarmed "grab my Katana by the handle while I am cutting you" dance or stop my blade with your Kodachi at my tsuba or by cutting my wrist. Or my personal favorite for all time high jinks and laughs; placing the blade between my hands and controlling my tsuka to manipulate the blade while I stand there like some dolt supposedly surpised and undone at your prowess.
Yah! thats gonna happen.
Looks great in the Dojo.
Grab a Katana wielded by someone at speed who knows what he's doing?
Think you can get inside to do it?
Give him a live blade-want to try it now?
I don't think so. Fun to learn and explore but Kata is Kata.
Like so much Japanese stuff, the principles are sound, but the techniques and speed they are practiced at, leave me frequently cold.

I always like your take on things for a practical perspective as well. I grew up in the projects with juvenile hall boys and later ex-cons and bikers and played with bottles, knives and what not-
I think you simply cannot substitute being at the wrong end of a knife or having five guys wanting to kick the hell out of you to have you wake up to a more realistic view of things. Most suburban"martial artists" I have met and trained with haven't a clue about pointy things or much else in any martial sense for that matter. So many approach the arts like a collection of techniques (I call them technique junkies). They place each thing they learned in its neat little box- since they themselves can't think outside of it. Never really getting to the heart of the principles or the rationale behind induced stress and playing it. If you freestyle them; you can see it in an instant. Particularly in how they approach and work a man.
The Japanese style of knife work I have personally been exposed to are marginal at best. I still remember the first time I had this well known big shot MA guy want to show me knife. I worked him over with ease. My impression hasn't improved from there. I juxtapose that with some military people I have played with who were a handful and showed me a thing or two. With one certain officer with an interesting background; I knew it was going to be fun the moment he dropped into a stance and looked at me.

All in all I say reverse hand if you find yourself close in-and you should train with him having a blade as well AND knowing how to use it.
But avoiding that at all costs and staying to cut and thrust with him having a blade as well.
I always assume he has a weapon and he knows what he's doing. The rest takes care of itself.


Dan
"Who would still prefers his sigs"

James Williams
4th August 2001, 21:52
Gentlemen,

If I could put in my two cents here. Knives do not win knife fights. The particular way of gripping the knife, which end of the knife is pointing which direction, whether the edge is up or down, none of this wins knife engagements. The individual human being who through his knowledge, commitment, courage, skill, training and proper application of the appropriate tool in the appropriate manner at the appropriate time will prevail, God willing.

the Khazar Kid
7th September 2001, 20:06
Reverse Grip was actually the preferred grip in Medieval European knife fighting, also in most Oriental (Asian/African/Islamic) systems. Sir Richard F. Burton considered it mechanically stronger and less vulnerable to locks and disarms than forward grip.

Medieval Dagger Fighting can be found at:
www.aemma.org/
www.thehaca.com/
www.alliancemartialarts.com/

This classic reverse grip style continued to be used with the Scottish dirk:
www.winterscapes.com/cateran

James Keating teaches his own "Drawpoint" system of quick-draw reverse grip knifing:
www.combattech.com/

On the other hand, forward grip has been a favorite of many knife-fencers since classical European fencing began to be adapted to the "poor man's sword" the short knife. Here is classical fencing:

www.classicalfencing.com/
www.martinez-destreza.com/

And here are some of the old French and Spanish streetfighting systems using knives and improvised weaponry:

www.savateaustralia.com/
http://schoolofarms.tripod.com/

Forward Grip was the favorite of Biddle and Fairbairn, both of whom studied fencing extensively, and of most other WWII Combatives instructors. Here are some current knife Combatives systems more or less based on their work:
www.ghca.org/
www.americancombatives.com/
www.defendo.com/
http://oppugnate.freehomepages.com/

Biddle's Bowie-knife fencing style, originally developed for the huge Bowie Bayonet, has been continued in James Keating's "American Blade Concepts" system and other Bowie-knife fencing systems such as these:
www.combattech.com/
www.alliancemartialarts.com/

You can often tell if a knife was meant for forward grip, reverse grip, or both by the shape of the grip and how it fits in your hand. The longest fingers should grip the widest part of the grip. A grip swelling toward the pommel (like an old Highland Dirk) is great for reverse grip, while a grip swelling toward the guard (like a Sykes-Fairbairn Commando Dagger) is great for forward grip. A Dagger with a symmetrical grip is good either way.

Jesse Peters

joe yang
7th September 2001, 20:48
"The reverse grip serves a very potent purpose: it shows you who to avoid -- namely any "expert" in a magazine ad in that reverse-grip-grimmace-pose..." Tetsutaka

Ah, the sweet voice of reason. Thank you Houston.

Actually the only time I ever saw a reverse grip used succesfully was in the semi-cheesey video "Surviving Edged Weapons". Inmates I have talked to,confirm that for a surprise encounter, frontal assault, the reverse grip, "shifting gears" attack is a prison favorite. Although the standard grip, multi thrust, kidney strike, sneak attack is also still very much deriqueur. Note we are talking ambush here and not fight. For a fight, I'm with Kit...

"In a KNIFE FIGHT, I think I would prefer forward grip and double edged. Normally I bring a gun to knife fights..." Kit LeBlanc

Thank you Kit.

On a final note, when my employer was looking at stab resistant vests, recently, the dealer reps let us test some with an ice pick. The vests are cool, they work, however, no one would let me try a spinning back fist, reverse grip. Credit were credit is due, if I had one shot at sure penetration, against armour,that would be my grip/attack.

But back to Kit, these things aren't bullet proof. And if I had to fight one on my terms, I'd go for multiple slashes to unprotected areas, standard grip, double edged blade, if I couldn't access a gun.

Tetsutaka
8th September 2001, 02:49
Originally posted by joe yang
"The reverse grip serves a very potent purpose: it shows you who to avoid -- namely any "expert" in a magazine ad in that reverse-grip-grimmace-pose..." Tetsutaka

Ah, the sweet voice of reason. Thank you Houston.

Are you kidding me? I was reading all of these well-thought-out posts, and having a seven course meal of crow. I personally think that fighting with a reverse grip has it's uses, just like foot stomping and head butting. I just shiver every time I hear someone mention reverse grip in martial arts chit-chat. It almost always ends up with them saying something really stupid and me rollling my eyes and looking for a way out of the conversation.

Here, I'm just glad to be part of the audience. Thanks to everyone for their input. It turned out be be a really fantastic thread.

[Bows with respect.]

Dan Harden
8th September 2001, 06:05
Changed my mind

Dan

Sochin
8th September 2001, 20:11
At 4:00am on Oct. 10, 1643, Musashi wrote:

"Third, in regard to the warrior knight, that path involves constructing all sorts ofweapns and understanding the various properties of weapons. This is imperative for warriors; failure to master weaponry and comprehend the specific advantages of each weapon would seem to indicate a lack of cultivation in a member of a warrior house."

And:

"You should not have any special fondness for any particular weapon, or anything else for that matter. Too much is the same as not enough. Without imitating anyone,else, you should have as much weaponry as suits you. To entertain likes and dislikes is bad for both commanders and soldiers. Pragmatic thinking is essential."

Practice the reverse grip because it is there and because some one who doesn't know it is useless WILL have perfected a methodology to slice your pasta...

James Williams
8th September 2001, 22:50
Gentlemen,

I have to say, this has been one of the better discussions of short edged weapons use in close quarters that I have read.

yamatodamashii
18th September 2001, 07:29
Let us not forget the concealment provided by the reverse grip. One might end the confrontation before it becomes a confrontation, approaching with a knife hidden in a reverse grip.

Charlie Kondek
20th September 2001, 19:18
I know very little knife, myself. Some training (the karate stuff already mentioned here - yes, reverse grip), some manuals. I read an interesting article about knife fighting from a street perspective, however. The author contended that most street practitioners use the forward grip, but conceal it by keeping their knife hand low and away from the opponent. The idea being the opponent thinks he's in a fist fight, only finding out too late that it's a knife fight! The author of the article - wish I could remember the author or mag, sorry - also said the "street fighter's" tactic was not to stab with the blade but strike with it, almost like a punch with the blade being something "a little extra..."

Later, I saw the movie "The Cider House Rules," and a knife fight scene in that film looked just like this! Interesting. Your thoughts on the validity of this idea?

(Another guy I know, a friend who studied savate in West Africa, said his instructor told him to draw a compass or big asterisk on a piece of paper, tack it to a wall, and practice cutting repeatedly and rapidly along every plane in the compass.)

Don Cunningham
20th September 2001, 20:13
Personally, I prefer the sharp, pointy end toward the opponent and the handle end toward me....

Sorry, couldn't resist.

I recall we were taught to use the ka-bar with a reverse grip in the Marines. Of course, I never had to use it that way since I always had a "John Wayne" to open my C-Rations cans.

Sgathak
27th September 2001, 09:14
looking over some refrences on Silat, Kuntao, and Kali/Arnis/Escrima I noticed a few things...

Firstly, in these arts you dont fight offensivly from a reverse grip.
second, in these arts you dont fight defensivly from a forward grip.

granted, wether your on offense or defense depends on your prospective on the situation, but as a general statement if your fighting at a bit of a distance from each other you are fighting offensivly, if you are in grappling range you are fighting defensivly. At least that is how the mind set in "combat mode" is most likely to perceive things.

You use the forward grip offensivly because it increases range and blade speed, helpful when "defanging the snake" or slashing open a gut. You use the reverse grip when in a defensive mode because chances are you no longer need range or speed to win, you need power. (let face it, if the bad guy has tackled you to the ground you have already lost anything gained with speed or distance... now its all about survival) This is when the reverse grip comes into its own. with the reverse grip in a very close or grappling situation you have less CUTTING options but far more stabbing and grappling options. you can draw the blade across the body in a very natural motion, use the blade as a lever or "handle" while grappling... (refer to Kit LeBlancs post for "in close" applications)

wether on not you choose the forward or reverse grip depends on which grip is more adventagous at the range your currently fighting at.


J Robbins

Neil Hawkins
27th September 2001, 15:03
In the style of Arnis I do we use both forward and reverse grips both offensively and defensively. In fact there is no real distinction between offensive and defensive, you trap (defensive) and slash (offensive) in the same motion reversed, or deflect and stab/slash in forward grip. Distance is fluid regardless of grip as we want to entangle or trap the arm whilst we attack the centre.

The only distinction I'd make is that it is harder to defend against a reverse grip. Though neither are in any way easy.

I also know of a Silat school that teach both grips equally.

Regards

Neil

Charlie Kondek
27th September 2001, 15:11
Why is it harder to defend against a reverse grip?

Neil Hawkins
27th September 2001, 15:37
Because in a forward grip there has to be some lateral movement to cut. With reverse grip the arm just punches out and the angle of the blade is such that it cuts as it moves forward, as the 'punches' are not directly at you you often don't move as much as you should and you get cut.

Also, with reverse grip the back of the knife is used to 'grab' or trap wrists and so on, you can then draw the opponent into a cut to a vital area, such as the armpit or a reverse stab in the kidney region. As you're off balance it is hard to defend.

But I suppose the major reason is that the knife is concealed behind the forearm, so you often don't see it until it is too late.

Now in the jujutsu I was taught we didn't need to see a knife in the forward grip, the sabaki and defense was based on the hand attacking, you always assumed a knife was present unless you clearly saw an empty hand. With the reverse grip however, the same sabaki and defense cause your hands, wrists or abdomen to be cut during the technique. The attacker is often waiting for you to draw him into you so that he can cut to your centre, you do the work for him.

A 'live' hand distracting, off-balancing or striking can also make life hard for the defender. I've won training fights without even using my knife, the other hand finished the guy before I could stab him.

Knife vs knife is a different thing again, but I think we've safely laid the impracticality of that to bed (here anyway! :)).

Regards

Neil

INFINOO
29th September 2001, 19:48
My four inch knife has the same "reach" in forward or reverse grip. The way to check this statement for your self, is to stand againts a with your shoulders flat againts the wall. Hold your arms out with a knife in either hand with both grips and see for your self. Of course if your blade is a funny shape, with a differnt edge orientation than the results may not be the same. But for a blade with a tip that is in the middle of the handle this statement is true. The other interesting point about reach is that a four inch blade gives zero reach over the reach of the fingers of a empty hand.

Neil: Im not sure whats been laid to bed about blade on blade encounters. Can you elaborate further. Thanks.

Gregory Rogalsky
Director of Rogalsky Combatives International

Dan Harden
30th September 2001, 10:55
Greg

You’re missing the point....both figuratively and literally. Point the thing forward- not up or down. You will see differently.
In order to make your body understand the mechanics of reach- stand AWAY from the wall so you have a target (always nice when thinking about combatives - and not playing air guitar.. eh?). Now, without moving the line of hips or shoulders much- see which grip allows you to touch the wall first (with the point >forward<)
Reverse grip comes in last and gets counter cut first.

"Understanding" doesn’t come from the grip-it comes from the mechanics of the body that uses that grip.
But then an international combatives instructor knows that I guess..…



Hey Neil
Good points

Please allow me to disagree a little on your comment "Because in a forward grip there has to be some lateral movement to cut"

I think this leaves out a fundamental mechanic. The blade is moving forward and back from the body in either grip.
Whether or not the pommel is forward or the point, the all important edge is still offered along the same vector. When it encounters flesh- as in your scenario where it is sliding- it will do the same thing regardless of which grip your using. An advantage of point forward here is that "AN" edge gets there first not the pommel.

Your other comment on "live hand" I agree with completely
The live hand distracting can be a neat little thing can’t it? It can also cover your blade as well. In the semi-crouched position with the point forward and the off hand arm flowing with it you can cut and punch/block/wrap with the off hand. Done correctly, like a snake strike, the opponent “sees” little movement….. then rapid thrusts or movements with two objects. It can get very interesting and blurry. As feints go its nice- they have a harder time discerning.

In knife to knife, another very valuable point I have never read or seen taught anywhere is to “never leave the way you came in.” To many guys go toe-to-toe to train (always a mistake) and in knife to knife it becomes easy to track and counter a thrust or anything else that comes in at you and leaves the same path. If you are defending and tracking that opposing arm and have the wisdom to thrust, cut, and tag it-and you are fast-you can frequently cut the attacking arm.
On the offense side if you train to enter and then alter your angle on retreat, the defender’s eyes instinctually track your intent and if they try to counter you are alrady cutting them on the way out. This can open up an auto counter response for you as the attacker. It also works whether or not he is a cut-the-cut fighter or a counter cut-fighter.

Reverse grip has the obvious spirals and line ups- but there are also many interesting vectors and spirals there in a point- forward venue that slice a defenders arms, legs, and neck. From a push-stall , up to an artery strike, or an arm entry, neck cut on leaving....and so on.

I think a most important subject as I mentioned earlier in the thread is not so much the grip but your mindset and understanding of body mechanics in working a man. Knowing how to not show leading momentum until it triggers, how to load, and knowing how to move and read is far more important than anything else.

Dan

INFINOO
30th September 2001, 17:02
Dan: Perhaps my words where misinterpreted. I was talking about the point being forward in both cases(reverse and forward) not with the tip in the up or down position. The reach or distance Im taking about is measured at the tip of the blade at the apex of the cut. And I still say, without cheating with the hips and the shoulders "againts the wall" the distance with a four inch blade is the same forward or reverse.
Im not sure where your going with the air guitar reference, maby its because I am a drummer.;) I never did the air guitar.

Gregory Rogalsky
Director of Rogalsky Combatives International

Neil Hawkins
1st October 2001, 04:29
Fair enough Dan, but to defend my point (pardon the pun :)) when the point is forward on all but very long blades the natural tendency of the blade is to penetrate and so become a stab. This is not possible when the pommel is forward. I tend to try and use the pommel strike and then let the blade slide across whatever target I have. But the point (there's that pun again!) you made is valid.

I totally agree with the in/out thing, all my attacks (and defenses) are circular and snake around the arms, body or whatever, usually with circular footwork and unbalancing.

Greg, the thing about knife vs knife is that you both have to have your knives out and ready. In a duel scenario this is possible, and surprisingly (maybe) in the Philippines it is still relatively common to be challenged to a knife duel (I'm told).

In street scenarios, the defender will often not have time to draw a weapon the initial defense is completed either empty handed (or with whatever happens to be in the hands) or the defender ends up bleeding on the ground.

Looking at legal implications, if you successfully defend and then draw the knife, that is called excessive force and you can get in trouble. If you do not successfully defend, it's too late to worry about. Try it sometime in training, you either have a good defensive lock or body position that allows you to draw or you're too busy deflecting and trying to strike. If you can draw, most courts would say that you could have used alternative methods to disable or disarm.

But hey every juristiction is different and in light of recent events, I would say that few courts would be lenient against knife weilding people. The thing to remeber is that in the eyes of the law you were both knife weilding people, the distinction is who drew first or attacked first, this is often hard to prove.

I don't advocate carring any kind of weapon unless you truely need one in the course of your daily routine, ie Military or Law Enforcement. But then again I live in relatively safe Australia, so different areas make up different rules.

Regards

Neil

INFINOO
1st October 2001, 18:06
Neil: Im not sure I agree with your statements about legal justification of using a knife in self defense. Of course there are an infinite of factors that determine if a act is justified or not. However, to make a blanket statement that your damned if you do , damned if you dont serves no one. From my experience, I can say that it is possible to defend your self successfully on the street and in court. Is it always pretty? No. Is it always cheap? No. But it is possible to succesfully defend yourself on many levels without slipping into excessive force. All that is required is the knowledge and application of the tools, tactics and the training.
As far as not being able to get a knife out in time while under attack is another matter all together. IMO this is where the reverse grip shines above most others most of the time.
In the past and in the future knives serve man in many roles. One of these roles is utility, another is rescue/survival and one use is defense. There are many others uses that the knife can fill. The knife on my hip has "Infinite possibilitys." Which is also my company slogan for Rogalsky Knives. I tell my students and friends that its better to have it and not need it, than it is to need it, and be without."

Gregory Rogalsky
Director of Rogalsky Combatives International

joe yang
2nd October 2001, 14:43
Mr. Rogalsky,

I'm blushing, I never considered a reverse grip, blade forward. It feels a little goofy, it's new. It is definately something I want to play with. I already like the feel of augmented strikes. And I just had an epiphany about bassai.

Aicerno
2nd October 2001, 19:03
Thinking about the knife in reverse-grip, brings to mind a situation I encountered while attending a tai kai. The theory (when applied in a practice/training session/setting) is sound, and runs along the lines of:

When stepping out of the way of an oncoming punch or knife stab, drop into ichi monji no kamae with the right hand grasping the hilt of the knife. As the second attack comes, draw the knife moving into ichi monji again; this will be the blocking wrist, with the knife edge towards the opponent's hand. To go on the offensive, simply step forward moving the edge of your knife against the opponent's skin. . . follow with a cut against the throat, and end with the blade entering their sternum.

Thoughts, comments?

Dan Harden
8th October 2001, 03:23
Originally posted by Aicerno
Thinking about the knife in reverse-grip, brings to mind a situation I encountered while attending a tai kai. The theory (when applied in a practice/training session/setting) is sound, and runs along the lines of:
When stepping out of the way of an oncoming punch or knife stab, drop into ichi monji no kamae with the right hand grasping the hilt of the knife. As the second attack comes, draw the knife moving into ichi monji again; this will be the blocking wrist, with the knife edge towards the opponent's hand. To go on the offensive, simply step forward moving the edge of your knife against the opponent's skin. . . follow with a cut against the throat, and end with the blade entering their sternum.
Thoughts, comments?
******************************
Since we have all been bandeying about the various grips and managing to not argue- I'll continue some.
None of this stuff is new, and what one may see as effective training, others may see as shark food.
You train to DO IT
They train to UNDO IT
Reverse hand? Step and do this move, feed in as he extends, don't telegraph the shoulders, move with a hip rotation in a closed spiral, cut from the hot side, enter from the cold side, rotate from the cold side to reverse....yada yada yada. These sorts of things are done all the time. Practice drills and blocking while slicing by the arm and countering with Kidney stabs and sternum strikes and so forth are a requirement, and need to be trained in. They need to be done so often they become second nature to you. They should also be done with a draw required. BUT! The the mindest needs to be taught as well-that these are trained in as last ditch-when you know he doesn't have a knife drills.
"Trying".... or actually "wanting" to get in that close to someone else when they HAVE a knife as well? Not a place to be for me.

As discussed above in this thread:
What you do when your grabbed (I call em "Oh shit" techniques) vs. what should be -KEY- training drills to keep them "off you" -and at a distance until you know your safe to enter- are two completely different things.
Its always best to think and act like your playing with the most dangerous man alive- The one you don't know- who has skill that surpasses your own-and that everything you know and do will fail you. In the unlikely event you get into a knife fight-I urge you to keep as much distance as possible and forget reverse hand mindest. Cut and thrust with a flowing, staccato, mindest. There is no need to enter that close to see him undone-doing so will unecessarily open you up (figuratively and literrally)
Since I would assume he was armed-why go there?

Always doubt what you learn. Fall in love with it, embrace it, until you reach a point you can objectivey look at it and see it for what it is.
Have they taught you everything works- all the time?
Have they taught you its strengths and weaknesses?
Who is this stuff supposed to work against?
Does it look rational?
Your opinion may change over the years on that.
Who around you can make it work in freestyle?
Does it work consistently enough to consider it valid?
Have they discussed the mechanics of movement?
How to track it?

Stated another way, lets say this:
We all tend to impart or grant a High level of "skill " on our teachers, our very own "Tommy" Senseis.
Picking up a knife and training with Tommy in the Dojo for five years- you may think this or that technique just simply rocks.....
Why?
Cause your playing with Tommy Sensei and he impressed you with his skill. Then Tommy showed you how to do it, then you started to be able to make it work against him. At some point you could free style all your "Tommy's and fair well.
Cool! Question is......

Whos "your" Tommy?

*****************************
Greg
The sort of body postioning for reverse hand/ point forward offers your arterys to a cut-the-cut technique. It is too easy to get there and slice/stab. Due to the nature of the body placement with the necessary movement required from that position-there are a couple of easy marks for a counter-cut technique as well.
Your still offering too much in an effort to cut him.

Just my opinion
Dan

INFINOO
8th October 2001, 18:23
Joe yang: Im glad to be helpfull. Whats bassai?

Dan: My original point is that the reach can be the same with a four inch blade in forward and reverse grip. A point that you originally thought was false, right?
Now your telling me, without acknowleding my original statment to be true I might add , that if I stick my arm out with the point forward. You will just cut my arterys because they are exposed.
Your a tough crowd. Im going to make a few points and than bow out of this thread.
1. If you stick anthing out in a knife fight there is a chance of it getting cut off.

2. There is a possibility that the enemys (hand, wrist, elbow, shoulder) is grabbed, checked, hit, passed, jammed for a moment with the non knife hand. And in that spit second a successful strike can be made "exposed arterys and all", without getting touched by the enemys edge or point. Of course timing , footwork and the right strike are crutial and most importantly guts to make your move.

3.In a knife fight somtimes being close is safe. Not to mention somtimes you dont have a choice of choosing the range to fight in. Somtimes the chioce of range is dictated by the circumstance you find your self in. For example if your taken to the ground , fighting in the front seat of a car, fighting in a bathroom, ect

Great thread Im out here.

Gregory Rogalsky
Director Of Rogalsky Combatives International

Dan Harden
8th October 2001, 18:59
Hi Greg

Not trying to be contentious- just short :)
Hows this...

1. Yes I did misunderstand your point...hah
And now I get it. Turn about being fair play-I still think it articulates the shoulder and shows itself too much- which you haven't responded to or acknowledged....I'm ok with that

2. And NO I don't think anyone can "just reach out" and do anything (like get the arteries). ;) Its all hard work.
I don't think anyone posting so far is that arrogant or that deep in fantasy land.
I have a bug for how the body works in motion thats all. But, minimizing risk does not equate to guaranteed success in my version of reality.

3.For the most part we are all acknowleging both grips for different things-close in or distance-with a leaning for one over the other.

The fact that, me, or we....are a tough crowd comes from experience I would guess.
Don't be put off by it....

Dan

INFINOO
8th October 2001, 21:24
Dan: Thanks for the reply. You are a true gentleman. I enjoyed many of your comments in the thread. Your right about the shoulder articulating, with this type of strike. There is no question that the of the arm is far stronger position when its bent at 90 degress, and the wrist not cocked. And at close range definitely the way to go. However, its still nice to know that the reverse grip with a 4 inch blade can make reach out and connect at the same mai as the same knife with a forward grip. Is it a preferred strike?.Who knows. In this type of fight I take any edge I can get. Somtimes its good to get when the getting is good:laugh:. Thats all I really wanted to say . The reason I wanted to bow out the thread is I thought it might get a little ugly. But from your last post I can see this is not the case. Best wishes.

Gregory Rogalsky
Director Rogalsky Combatives International

sect_7
14th October 2001, 23:28
I think that it isn't so important regular (forward) or reverse grip. Whats the point??? hmmm... if i exclusively used the forward grip I would never understand the reverse, and vice versa...:rolleyes: So really what I would consider is to train both ways extensively. If I may offer an analogy, I roll far better on one side of my body than the other. I do rolls on both sides. Granted one side I am smooth and on the other on concrete I could break something. But I rolls at least as much on my bad side as my good. Simply put practicing my weakest area increase my chances if i were thrown the 'wrong way' on concrete oir the like. (which my former dojo was on concrete, not mats. there was no room for screw ups.) Use your strength to discover you weakness so that it may be removed by studious practice. i.e. do not become dominate in one way when life changes constantly instant by instant and what works here will not work there. Do things the most difficult way so that they may work in every scenario but be aware that 'easier' scenarios alow more options, of which you will also need to be competent in...

GAMBATE... KEEP GOING...

Dan Harden
15th October 2001, 01:43
Mr. Sector, or MZ section or whatever

If you don't mind; the entry rules you agreed to in order to get in here, require a full name..thanks

In regards to your comments on Forward or reverse
not to put too fine a point on it......
We did discuss both at some length
We did discuss the merits and tactical situations that each of us felt were most relavent for grips
We did discuss our optimum guidelines and why
We did discuss the need for extensive training in each
We did discuss the relationship between Old classical styles and new combatives
We did discuss body movement, bone alignement and articulation along with the resultant openings

Your critique is unsound, and redundant to the contributions already made. :)
Perhaps you should go back and re-read the thread and then come back and contribute something substantive bud.
We made an effort to communcate our thoughts in response to other peoples efforts- perhaps you should too.
Or at least offer something in the order of "I agree or disagree on these points"...... "Here's why."

See what I mean?
Look forward to hearing from ya.

Dan

sect_7
16th October 2001, 23:24
mr. Hardren, my name is tim, and I chose to use the signature function in the profile, however i made an error when creating it (mistakenly not saving by clicki8ng forward on my browser.), for which i appologize. However, to criticize me for reduncancy is sad... there are few truly 'new' things in the universe. If a topic were truly that new, it would be ahead of everbody, and as such be indiscussable. But this is a common error of impatience. However, I am no master, and if you are an instructor, or other such induvidual, I would appreciate guidance away from my error (and as such why would you not do as you are??):eek:. perhaps a monopoly of this discussion is your desire?? :saw:

joe yang
17th October 2001, 03:05
Mr. Rogalsky

Sorry, bassai or passai is the TKD version of a blackbelt form, originally Japanese in origin. It starts out at attention, with a kind of mudra for um/yo or in/yo. There is a slow rise onto tiptoe, a twist and a long, slow lean forward. It ends with a lurch to a attention, ankles crossed. The really interesting part is the circular, augmented block at the end. The whole thing, from the mudra, to the block/strike feels really right for a reverse grip knife strike. I've always been fascinated by this opening move. I practice it a lot. I've never really figured it out to my satisfaction. I like to know what every move means. GM likes to keep secrets. He always gives us honest answers, though. I like this move for the reverse grip. I'm going to ask about it. Thanks again for opening my eyes.

TheWind
17th October 2001, 03:10
A reverse grip provides concealability, surprise, and is goodfor quikly killing someone, it also can quikly be rolled in your hnd to a foward grip. A forward grip gives you a distance advantage. Personally I like to avoid a fight, or bring a gun.
Robert Murie