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ben johanson
31st July 2001, 19:39
I came across a website on European swordsmanship, and in the photo gallery ( www.thehaca.com/photos/practcut.htm ) are pictures of test cuts with European swords. A number of the pictures show a test cut with a "Venetian infantry sword" and reveal that the sword became stuck in a bamboo stalk and subsequently snapped, most likely when the swordsman attempted to dislodge his weapon. The bamboo stalk is reported to be 6 inches in diameter, which apparently is too thick for a "Venetian infantry sword" to handle. My question is, would a Japanese sword of reasonable quality, made using modern day forging techniques (as I am sure were probably employed to produce the broken Venetian sword) perform so poorly against a bamboo stalk 6 inches in diameter? Or, perhaps of greater interest, would a Japanese sword forged using traditional techniques fair better or worse than the European sword?

I thank in advance anyone who is willing and able to offer a response.

James Williams
31st July 2001, 19:59
Ben,

I have seen the video and the bamboo is not six inches in diameter. It is quite difficult actually to find bamboo that thick in this country. Bamboo of lesser diameter can still be very difficult to cut and hard on swords. The heat treating of western swords is quite different than that of Japanese swords. The cut that broke the western sword would have, in a traditionally forged Japanese sword with traditional metalurgy, bent the blade of the Japanese sword but should not have broken it. The heat treating of western blades, called case hardening, allows for flexing to a certain degree with the sword returning to true after the flex. Past the point of their flex parameters they tend to break. A Japanese sword if bent to any degree tends to stay bent and will need to be straightened. This is due to the differential hardening that leaves the body of the blade in a state of pearlite which is relatively ductile and not very brittle. Very different approaches in attempting to solve the problem of sword performance under battle conditions. With modern steels and heat treating, such as L-6 in a bainite state, you can come much closer to the ideal of a sword that will flex but not break or take a set within any normal use parameters that swords are designed for.

ben johanson
1st August 2001, 18:58
Thanks for your reply James! I have a few further questions.

Some of the other pictures in the same photo gallery show test cuts being performed with European swords on pumpkins, water bottles, phonebooks, and what looks like pieces of cardboard. Are these really sufficient targets to use in a test cut to measure the cutting efficacy of a sword? Or does the fact that such targets are being used for cutting practice for European swords point to the relative weakness in the cutting abillity of the latter when compared to Japanese swords?

I guess what I am trying to arrive at is an understanding of the comparitive strengths and weaknesses of Japanese and Western swords. Any information on that subject or on sources I may consult pertaining to that subject would be greatly appreciated.

James Williams
1st August 2001, 20:22
Ben,

I would assume that the targets are being used because they are easily available. I would not cut most of those targets with my Japanese swords because they tend to scratch the polish which is different than the polish of a western sword and takes an enormous amount more work.

James

Tony Peters
2nd August 2001, 00:14
Originally posted by ben johanson
Thanks for your reply James! I have a few further questions.

Some of the other pictures in the same photo gallery show test cuts being performed with European swords on pumpkins, water bottles, phonebooks, and what looks like pieces of cardboard. Are these really sufficient targets to use in a test cut to measure the cutting efficacy of a sword? Or does the fact that such targets are being used for cutting practice for European swords point to the relative weakness in the cutting abillity of the latter when compared to Japanese swords?

I guess what I am trying to arrive at is an understanding of the comparitive strengths and weaknesses of Japanese and Western swords. Any information on that subject or on sources I may consult pertaining to that subject would be greatly appreciated.

As James said everything you listed are things that are readilly available. Cardboard tubes are a common test-cutting subject for European swords or so my contact with various groups has informed me...plain cardboard is like cutting beachmats. Phonebooks act like flesh and so do waterbottles (try shooting them sometime). Many of these groups are striving to validate/rebuild european sword traditions that didn't have the Japanese advantage of the banning of firearms and therefore became exstinct. They take their study just as serious as those who study Koryu arts and should not be confused with SCA players. As James said european swords aren't weaker or stronger their different. Look at the info Dan Harden has posted about metals swords and the like. You may choose not to agree with him but he knows his stuff. Also understand that the Quality of Europens swords right now isn't as high as that of the Japanese sword (more of that exstiction bussiness). Del Tin swords could be considered somewhere between a bargin cutter and say Bugei's lower end in their blade quality (they are mass produced blades) but their finishing and assembly is of rather high quality.

Deshi
2nd August 2001, 14:43
Let me open that I'm speaking from a posistion of being a part of a medieval recreation troup for almost 10 years now. We've used English broadswords, Claymores, and rapiers most often, as well as several of the beautiful French pole arms. Only recently have I been introduced to the real abilities of the Japanese sword. AS such....

A major difference to remember in comparing these two groups is what they were designed to encounter on the battle field. In Europe, your enemy could be arrayed in as little as the clothes on his back, to as much as a full set of hardened steel armor. Weapons needed to be ready for any situation.

Hollywood has done a wonderful job of blurring the real use of Euro weapons, showing men fencing with broadswords, and slicing each other with rapiers. (Cue bad Scottish accent) It's just not right! In these two cases, the rapier (skinny and long) was designed for piercings, and did a wonderful job pushing through chainmail. However, these weapons were rarely sharp, relying instead on the dozens of puncture wounds to kill a man. The broadsword, on the otherhand, had an edge. But was more intended to be used as a baseball bat. Beat your enemy into the ground, and then push the tip through his skull. I have seen a middle of the road Scottish basket hilt broadsword push through 3/16" of plate steel squealing all the way in.

I hope this adds a little flavor to the conversation.

With all respect,
Gary Beckstedt
Buke Ryu

Tony Peters
2nd August 2001, 18:51
Quite right Gary except for a few little things. Rapiers were not designed for pushing through chain mail (though they were good at it) You are thinking of an Estoc. Rapiers were indeed sharpened, well at least the last 6 inches or so though for the most part the blade was rebated. Blades didn't become pointed blocks of metal until the 1800's

PS what is a "medieval recreation troup" SCA????

Deshi
2nd August 2001, 19:03
Thanks for the clarification on the rapiers, Mr. Peters. As one of my buddies in the troup can tell you, I've never been much of a fan of the pointy little things (being a broadsword fan myself) but I've been on the recieving end enough to respect them.

The troup I've belonged to is called the Knights of Pendragon. We've performed for many years at the Georgia RenFest doing ground combat, tilting, and mounted combat. Unlike the 'men' of the SCA, we actually use live blades rather duct tape covered PVC. Personally, I've been honored to serve as a squire all these years, and have done enough armor repair to see the reason why the Euro swords developed the way they did. Perhaps one day I'll try some tamishigiri on a chainmail shirt I have to see what happens!

THanks for the response, and I hope you have a blessed day.

Gary Beckstedt
Buke Ryu

P.S. You can email me at garybeckstedt@mindspring.com if you'd like more info.

Tony Peters
2nd August 2001, 23:41
Gary,
There are some interesting books that have come out recently, John Clements two books are one man's interpretation of older European Swordfighting (for the most part I like what he says but he has his critics) but there are others. Very recently Hans Talhoffer's treatise on Swordwork was translated into english and published. It is truely an informative book.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1853674184/ref=nwl_gateway/ref=cm_mp_wl/107-9125978-7102913?coliid=IYXZWM2OCL7HG

J. Christopher Amberger's Secret History of the sword is also a nice history type book.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/stores/detail/-/books/1892515040/customer-reviews/ref=sim_books/107-9125978-7102913

Much of what was though to be lost in the way of original manuals by people such as Silver and Digrassi are available as PDF's on the Web if one is interested. I've got a shelf of Bound Manuals that I've been collecting for some time.

glad2bhere
3rd August 2001, 02:23
Dear Mr. Williams et al:

Since the discussion seems to focus on performance as reflected by swords produced by a tradition other than that in Japan, I thought I would add to the confusion by posing the following question.

My sword master will be returning from Korea with swords manufactured in that country. I have no idea of how these swords are expected to perform for hyung (form) and light cutting applications. The architecture and weight of the blade, however will vary significantly from that of the standard katana.
I will share from the start that I have no cutting experience at all and would probably be the least qualified to attempt to compare the performance of these Korean swords with their Japanese counterparts. However, the scholar in me wonders if there might not be something to be learned by comparing at least the minimal performance. Needless to say, I would not be willing to press the comparison to failure, but perhaps something could be gleaned from a comparitive examination of the product, its handling characteristics and performance as compared to a Katana of modern manufacture. Does anyone have any thoughts regarding the practicality or validity of such a venture?

Best Wishes,
Bruce

Earl Hartman
3rd August 2001, 02:48
I need to clear up a few misconceptions about people obviously not familiar with the SCA.

In SCA fighting, the matches are free-sparring matches; that is, the combatants are not following any pre-arranged choreography or putting on a show for anyone; they are trying to hit each other, and hit each other as hard as they can, since matches are scored on the honor system, where a blow is considered legitimate only if it is hard enough. Consequently, blows are delivered with all the speed and power that the combatants can muster. The only limitation is that blows below the knee are not allowed. All other parts of the body are legitimate targets. Consequently, in order to prevent serious injury and death, the swords are usually made from rattan, and impact weapons such as maces are heavily padded. Due to the strength and power of the blows, head protection is required to be made from a minimum of 14 gauge steel and heavily padded inside. The nature of the fighting makes heavy armor a must. I will agree that while many of the members of the SCA have researched the fighting methods of the period quite extensively, and often make their own very authentic armor, the fighting methods have been adapted to make competition possible, since in the SCA the main reason for fighting is to compete in the lists and, by defeating all comers, be crowned King.

During my days as an SCA fighter, I broke a few bones in my time, and on one occasion was very nearly paralyzed from a cowardly blow to the back of the neck in a melee. Cracked bones, concussions, and various other injuries are quite common.

I have attended numerous Renaissance Faires and observed the fighting displays put on. They have all, without exception, been staged bouts, blows with the swords either being directed to the most heavily protected areas or delivered with the flat of the blade. The fighters are obviously skilled performers, but they seem to be actors, primarily. I have never seen any of these troupes engage in all-out fighting with real weapons. If there are such groups, I would be interested to know more about them.

Tony Peters
4th August 2001, 04:17
What may have been real in your day has degenerated to a mess today. I've seen SCA Players a few times and the one thing that struck me was that there was no form or dicipline to any of the fighting. It was more like a game of full contact point fighting if that makes any sense. Going all out to make the touches required to score points. There was little that looked related to swordfighting of any style (I have read both Silver and Talhoffer and while I won't say I understand it I didn't see anything that looked like that either). The only exception to this were the guys Rapier fighting using Schlagers and either daggers or small shields. Those guys were good and they had style. What I'd love to see is a school that taught the "spanish circle" using those same practice swords but alas that is probably lost for all time.

Earl Hartman
6th August 2001, 03:13
Tony:

Yes, SCA fighting can look quite messy and undisiplined. Weird things can happen when you are actually trying to hit someone as hard as you can with a heavy wooden sword and trying to avoid being hit by same. Speaking from experience, it really, really hurts if you get hit in the wrong place. Unless you are pretty well encased in plate, or are so good that you never get hit, serious bruising is the minimum you will come out of an SCA fight with.

I never claimed that SCA fighting was pretty. I think that there are/were some deficiencies in SCA fighting training, namely the absence of kata. It is very free form, and while the equipment used is designed to approximate real armor and weapons insofar as is possible while maintaining some margin of safety, the rules of fighting were developed to make competition possible; so your characterization of it as "full contact point fighting" is actually pretty accurate.

My comment was directed at "Deshi", who impugned the manhood of SCA fighters because they do not fight with steel weapons. He says that he is a member of a fighting troupe that performs at Renasaince Faires using steel weapons, and seems to take this as proof that he is a real man and that SCA fighters are pansies. As I said, I have seen these performances; and while there is undoubtedly a certain amount of danger in taking a choreographed fall off of a horse in full plate armor, my point was that steel or no steel, these performances are all staged. The fighting is not real. A certain possibility of injury is an ocupational hazard, surely, but this is something that will happen if you take the fall improperly or mistake the order of the choreography and zig when you're supposed to zag. It will not be the result of being unable to defend yourself against a superior fighter who is doing his best to pound you into the ground.

SCA fighting is based loosely on medieval foot fighting. The weapons of choice are usually broadsword/axe/mace and shield or greatsword or some other two-handed weapon. Rapier and dagger and other later gentlemanly duelling weapons are usually not employed in the lists.

Nowadays, due to improvements in fighting skills and the use of heavier and heavier weapons, the requirements in the SCA for armor are quite strict. In the eary days (20-30 years ago) you were considered well armored if you had a saber fencing mask, a heavy leather jacket, and motorcyle gloves. Not much to protect you against a heavy rattan stick.

Don't know too much about the other recreation groups mentioned upthread. However, their attempt to recreate the actual techniques based on old "fechtbuchs" seem quite interesting and promising. There is some of that in the SCA, but SCA fighting is mainly, as a said, a pretty free-form competition for the purposes of beating up a bunch of other people and being crowned Top of the Heap and King of the Mountain. Art and performance "production values" (except the ability to die well)are secondary.

Tony Peters
6th August 2001, 04:42
I went a did a search on the "Mysterious Spanish Circle" Fencing and lo and behold I find someone who teaches it http://www.martinez-destreza.com/ (along with other classical fencing/rapier forms. For some reason the Rapier has alway interested me. Now if I could just get the Navy to station me in NYC:D

Deshi
6th August 2001, 14:11
Mr Hartman,
I apologize for your obvious ofense taken about my comments regarding the SCA. If I am to take your experiences with the SCA in your area at face value, then I must admit that we are looking at two very different groups. Here in Georgia, the SCA that I have encountered in various arenas have amounted to little more than over weight beer drinkers who have taken their D&D games into a deeper reality. Their fighting encounters are, indeed, freeform. However, I think their motto best displays the reason for my disdain.. "Medieval times the way it ought to have been."

I have known former members of the Ga. SCA who have related to me their own disgust with where it has gone in recent times. These men have related to me "how it used to be" which sounds much more in line with your recollections. I made an obviously erroneous assumption that the cancer of politics have sickened the entire national SCA. Obviously I was wrong, and I apologize for that.

Regarding our troupe... while on the field (performing) the combat IS choreographed. And you have accurately portrayed some of the dangers inherent to such activities. However, back stage between shows, we have 'fun'. And while I'll acknowledge that no one is striving to land the death blow, I have my fair share of scars to prove that we are trying to make our point with our opponent. It's all a lot of fun, and meant to help the performance by expanding our understanding of what combat might have been like back then.

In any case, again my apologies, and an olive branch. Best of luck to you and yours,

Gary Beckstedt

Earl Hartman
7th August 2001, 03:29
Deshi:

Yes, to an outsider, the SCA must certainly appear to be nothing more than a freak show filled with weekend warrior types more at home slamming code until 4 in the morning while guzzling Jolt cola and scarfing Fritos. Surrounding the core of dedicated medieval scholars and people who take their fighting quite seriously, there is the larger mass of sci-fi fans, computer geeks, New Agers, Celtic mythologists, and all-around social misfits who shun the "mundane" world and, as you say, take their D&D role playing to a whole new level in the SCA. For these people, the SCA is truly an alternative reality. And, yes, I would say that a large percentage of the "fighters" are just the types you describe. When I was young and in the lists, absolutely nothing gave me more satisfaction than making those guys look out through their ear holes.

However, the SCA boasts a cetain number of dangerous bastards who wield a mean stick.

According to the purists, the SCA has been in decline from Day 1. It used to be a pretty small group, but it's huge now. And, yes, thr goal has always been to "re-create" the Middle Ages not as they were (illiterate, abused peasants, illiterate abusing nobility, religious intolerance, general squalidness and endemic violence) but as they should have been (brotherhood of knights, nobility of arms, the Heroic Quest, Courtly Love, honor, and chivalry). It always was an excuse for a big role-playing party, and to the extent that the participants could keep their realities straight, things were fun. But, the serpent was in the garden from the beginning, and people will always use any organization for their own personal ends. The psychodrama was intense.

But the fighting was fun.

Tony Peters
7th August 2001, 03:37
Gary's (deshi) statements about what the SCA has become is the reason for my low opinion as well. It has progressed from a study in swordsmanship to bad Kendo at best. Whatever it's beginings. This is also likely the reason that groups like HACA, AEMMA and the Association for Historical Fencing came into being. I would guess that the "core" group of studying folks have migrated into like minded groups. That said the sword is the sword. And all of them attract me. I'm still stuck between really sharp pointy things's (Katana's and it's ilk) and really pointy sharp things (mostly Rapiers). As I am moving to Japan next year the study of the Rapier will have to wait until I return. Again as Gary said I meant to offence to any who studied/played/worked out with SCA in times past. I was just refering to what I have seen lately (I remember the difference in the last decade).