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charlesl2
1st August 2001, 23:26
G&S,

I wanted to throw this question out there: what (if any) koryu arts are/were actually trained for application since the early 1900s? I understand that a modified form of SMR jo was/is? taught to police in Japan for actual application. Can somebody/anybody confirm and explain to what extent? Also, have there been other koryu arts used, either by the police, armed forces, whatevers?

I saw something interesting on the news a month or so ago. Some time after that whacko guy went into that school in Japan and started stabbing children, they showed on the news some Japanese teachers training in techniques to handle a hostile. They were using a pole with a curved "U" on the end, and practicing catching an adversary within the "U" and pinning him. They were also practicing this in groups. I was wondering if traditional techniques would be used to teach this kine stuff?

-Charles Lockhart
Honolulu, HI

ghp
2nd August 2001, 01:35
Charles,

Right off the top of my head, I can say that ca 1868, kendo (then called kenjutsu or gekken) was incorporated and taught to the police. The police techniques developed into its own style and was/is called Keishi Ryu. The 1935 edition of the Rikugun Toyama Gakko manual, Kenjutsu Kyohan Shokai states it was developed specifically for police use by Sakakibara Kenkichi and other kenjutsu/gekken hanshi. Today the police are verrrry well known for their "dynamic" kendo keiko. (Ask Earl Hartman :))

In 1926 the Rikugun Toyama Gakko introduced 5 iai kata "to be used on the modern battlefield." Although a series of new techniques, the waza were developed by committee from koryu waza -- specifically what is today known as Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu. Nakayama Hakudo is credited with being the "father" of Toyama Ryu iaido -- the army asked for his assistance in formulating the kata; their requirements were combat effective techniques that could be learned quickly by large groups of trainees. Most people today say the Toyama Gakko forms were created from Omori Ryu, but to me the techniques feel more akin to the Okuden Tachiwaza [Shinmei Muso Ryu] of MJER. Toyma Ryu iaido is still around and is about 75 years old ... another 150 years before we can call it a koryu, I suppose :p

European fencing may have been introduced to the Rikugun Toyama Gakko -- I've not seen any manuals, but according to research by Lasslo Abel published in JMAS's newsletters, two of the French army faculty members were admitted into Sakikibara's kenjutsu dojo -- one was a Maitre d'armes -- so I'm supposing he was contracted to teach western fencing. [Lasslo Abel was a member of the Japanese Martial Arts Society of Tokyo in the 1970s (?)] Another member of JMAS, Nyle Monday, has given me a photograph showing Japanese Army Academy cadets wearing kendo bogu, but using short shinai, holding them in the manner of a western saber (overhead cuts/blocks).

Oh, but I'm rambling ... back on tangent:

Bayonet fencing was introduced by the French ca. 1870 and employed French techniques. Apparently, the Japanese weren't entirely satisfied -- or they felt it was incomplete -- so they incorporated elements of sojutsu [spear handling], synthesizing the two methodologies into jukenjutsu [per Laslo Abel's research]. Jukendo is still taught to the Japanese military [okay, okay .... their "Self Defense Force" .... with bayonets!] and, according to Meik Skoss, it is currently undergoing another transformation into a "touchy-feely" less militaristic mindset (oh gawd! Political correctness will kill [has killed] budo).

Perhaps Meik Skoss can provide more information, and clean up any inaccuracies I've left behind.

And the U-shaped poles ... sounds similar to police arresting techniques of the Edo era ... sode-garami "sleeve entanglers"
http://www.liongate-armsandarmour.com/images/bq383-2.jpg


Regards,
Guy

Kolschey
2nd August 2001, 02:39
Originally posted by ghp





Jukendo is still taught to the Japanese military [okay, okay .... their "Self Defense Force" .... with bayonets!] and, according to Meik Skoss, it is currently undergoing another transformation into a "touchy-feely" less militaristic mindset (oh gawd! Political correctness will kill [has killed] budo).


D.I.: "What is the spirit of the Bayonet?!?"

Recruit: "Um...This is uh.., like a concrete manifestation of..like, my aggressive, masculine militaristic ego? I don't actually have to..um.. like point it, right?"

ghp
2nd August 2001, 06:14
Krzysztof,


Recruit: "Um...This is uh.., like a concrete manifestation of..like, my aggressive, masculine militaristic ego? I don't actually have to..um.. like point it, right?"

That is SO funny :p Sure wish I could have said that during basic training .... but I went through before the bayonet was reintroduced .... and I was infantry. Hell, we all knew the real answer .... we just didn't practice bayonet drills. Fortunately, bayonet was implemented again. I've been retired 7 years now, who knows; they might have quit again.

Drill Sergeant: "What's the spirit of the bayonet?"
Trainees: "Kill, Drill Sergeant; KILL!"

OOPS .... that's right ... halfway through my basic (1979) we were no longer "Trainees." Naw; psychologists opined that "trainee" was demeaning. We were to be called "soldiers." You know ... drill seargeants can make the noble word "soldier" sound like "S[p]it-head" when they want to. :p

You quoted me:

Jukendo is still taught to the Japanese military [...] and, according to Meik Skoss, it is currently undergoing another transformation into a "touchy-feely" less militaristic mindset (oh gawd! Political correctness will kill [has killed] budo).

Let me clarify ... I once read a post by Meik stating the civilian Zen Nippon Jukendo Renmei is trying to "demilitarize" jukendo. My quote makes it sound like the Japanese "military" is trying to go "PC" on budo -- which definitely ain't the case.

Regards,
Guy

Joseph Svinth
5th August 2001, 01:38
Gee, and here I was thinking the Spirit of the Bayonet was saving money. After all, you have the boys practice all day for free with their bayonets, but shooting costs you 20c a pop.

As for bayonets in Korea, after the war the Chinese generals said the only thing that scared them was napalm. And yes, fuel-assisted munitions (FAM) can be delivered by troops as well as airplanes -- think flamethrowers, something the Germans used instead of bayonets both World Wars.

Now, I admit that you can't always use flamethowers while clearing houses. Even so, you don't see the local SWAT team rushing in with swords. Instead you see them going in with snipers, submachine guns, shotguns, and high-capacity self-loading pistols. If log remains a problem, then the solution is probably the one the Russians used at Stalingrad, namely shovels. In street fighting, you often need to go through the wall to get the enemy, and you can't count on having time to drop your tool and grab your weapon. Less stuff to carry, too.

So the answer to the question is: "Sir, the Spirit of the Bayonet is not trusting the S-4 to conduct timely resupply, or the S-3 to plan!"

Which is often the case, I admit, but nothing a few timely courts-martial couldn't fix.

***

On a less cynical note, the idea of teaching bayonet fighting is to get the troops to close with the enemy, a key principle behind attrition warfare. Nonetheless, timing is critical. I've seen folks try to teach bayonet after the troops have been exposed to a Vulcan firing exercise (Vulcan is a 20mm cannon firing 1000+ rounds per minute) and the motivation simply isn't there.

Joseph Svinth
5th August 2001, 01:52
BTW, check out Tony Wolf's article on 19th century "Assaults-at-Arms" at http://ejmas.com/jmanly/jmanlyart_wolf2_0801.htm : its illustrations include contemporary engravings of Victorian swordsman chopping steel breastplates, chopping poultry and legs of lamb, and fencing using rebated bayonets. There are also links to assorted online manuals dating to the mid-19th century.

hyaku
5th August 2001, 02:18
A little bit off track. You mention the school incident, that was some distance away but the bus hijack was a local incident with the grand-daughter of the victim being one of my students.

We have recived a police report of a suspicious person in the area recenty and I now patrol around the nursery school every morning.

The nursery school teachers are extremley passive people. But they now know that those nice little heavy chairs the kids sit on are a handy weapons and the new insecticide cans that put out about six feet of spray could come in very handy.

Incidents are on the rise in Japan and there is a marked drop in the police's ability to catch people.

Only last week a friends bag was lifted in a Costco store.Around the same period dI was awakened in the night by someone trying my car door and have now had to fit alarms and sensors.

It may be the norm for other countries but for Japan it's a very sad downturn in what was before a rather safe country to live in.

Sorry its off thread

Hyakutake Colin