PDA

View Full Version : Tanto-Dori (Knife taking)



INFINOO
5th August 2001, 02:59
Four basic types of knife attacks the Modern Aiki man or women is likely to come across.

1.Dojo type attack

Attacks with a mostly untrained or overcooperate partner, or attacker. Kind of like "hear is my knife arm throw me over it." The attacker makes no attempt to protect his knife hand. The attacker will often throw him self off balence, with little or no help from nage. Once thrown, the attacker will kind of just lay there and let you lock him up.

2. Surprise knife attack

This type of knife attack you may never see coming for one reason or another. Example:Fast draw knife meathods or a knife palmed so dont see it, hidden below line of sight. Or a hidden knife, like a pocket knife with a clip that is produced while engaged in what you thought was an empty handed attack. Or you may be distracted with a nasty distraction(kick in the balls, spit in the eye) first before the main knife attack. This type of attacker WILL protect his knife hand from being grabbed or controlled:eek: If thrown the attacker WILL resist, and fight from the ground.

3. Duel

ie:Two willing knife fighters going at it toe to toe. Not that common . In this type of fight you would likley see some form of feints. Fast snap cuts, fast snap thrust and plenty of off hand work.

4. Knife vs Empty hamd.
Not really an attack more like a counter attack. For instance someone who is bigger, stronger is attacking you and you draw a knife to keep them off you,and stop the attack . The primary goal here is to get away . The damage to the attacker being secondary.Ie Self-Defense.

My questions is how do you train in your version of Aikitantodori.Ie; kata with live blade, ruberknives and randori. Do you think your Aiki will cut it. Or in this case, keep you from being cut. Honestly , do you think it would work? How do you know.? Do you care. Let me know, and then I will share some of my thoughts on the subject.

Gregory Rogalsky
Director of Rogalsky Combatives International.

Walter Kopitov
5th August 2001, 14:30
I think you made an assumption. What makes you think that we wouldn't be armed also? If I had to face an attacker with a knife I woluld use what ever weapon was available. Aikidoka train with Jo and Bokken and in NGA we use the Nunchaku.

Yes we do train unarmed against an armed attacker but that would never be the first or second or even the third choice, but the last resort. Cooperation is not needed from the training partner, but the problem is you will have to ger new ukes everytime you practice.

I find that many martial artists that focus on direct engagement don't have a full understanding of the variety of possiblties. They tend to focus on one thing, basically standing toe to toe and exchanging blows or in this case cuts. Isn't this the same philosophy that got the USA in trouble in Vietnam? The USA wanted to go toe to toe because they knew they were superior. The Vietnamese knew that would be dumb to go toe to toe so the didn't (well they did once and got their buts kicked, and they never did that again.)

I guess my question to you is what do you do with someone that doesn't want to engage in a knife fight or any fight?

Walter Kopitov

INFINOO
5th August 2001, 16:46
Waltor Kopitov: Thanks for the reply . Im not sure where your going with the Vietnam reference? It is my understanding that one of the stratagies the viet cong used was to (grab the belt). Which means get so close to the enemy that they can't call in the air stike on top of there own men.
Its great that you train with bokken, jo and Im sure other stuff your not telling. But let me ask you do have them with you all the time. Are packing a bokken right now. How about when you go to the store for milk? Or the bank machine.
Your question about people not wanting to engage in any type of fight is valid. I think that Martail arts is not for everyone. What would they do if they were attacked? Good question? The best answer I ever heard for this questions is "Become the type of person to whom and which violence does not occer" To me this a little like burying your head in the sand pretending that violence never happens to nice people. But its still a good Quote.
It's been my personal experience that the proper mindset , awareness , training and carrying sharp steel in a fast draw kydx sheath 24/7 to back it up can go along way. How about you?
Gregory Rogalsky

Mike Collins
6th August 2001, 04:10
Well, if it's about effectiveness, and carrying an equalizer, whats wrong with a nice Glock 9mm?

If it's about practicing- practicing distance, timing, awareness, body mechanics, all that kind of stuff, then tanto dori suits me just fine.

Would I deliberately face off with someone who was armed with a knife (and for all I know, has a clue how to wield it properly)? Well hell no, but then again I wouldn't walk barefoot down the median strip of Highway 101 at 7:00 AM, with a blindfold on. It would be stupid.

If I was forced, with no other options, to deal with an attacker with a knife, using whatever I had, to include whatever Aikido technique I've been able to get a grip on so far, would I be able to? The answer is exactly the same as if they were unarmed. If I had more training and practice, I'd live and be able to tell a good story, and if they worked harder at being a bad guy than I had at learning to defend myself, then they'd get the good story to tell at the bad guy bar.

All of that however, kind of misses the point, I think. It's a practice, not so much for how to survive, but for how to live.

Or maybe I'm wrong. But for me, I don't think so.

INFINOO
6th August 2001, 04:59
Hey Mike Collins, I was waiting for someone to bring up the gun issue, good one. I live in Canada so the only people that carry guns around the city are police, armored car dudes and criminals which leaves me out on all three counts. An interesting point about the gun issue is that many gun attacks(at least around here) take place within 10 feet or so, which is darn near knife range as well. Go figure. Its also my experience that many of the same responses for say a knife thrust to the belly.or the head for that matter are transferable to the gun to belly/head at close range. Im also think tanto dori is all about timing, distance, some techneque and most Importantly the will to survive.If somone tells you they would do this to the guy , or that to a given attack Im more than a little suspicious. Knife attacks are just to fast to be be thinking, only do. When I was growing up there was a saying that went somthing like " If you could take me without that knife you wouldnt need one" Im not sure what the hell it ment, but it was a saying alright. I was more of the opinion that it was better to have it and not need it than to need it and be without. Im still interested how other people incorporate tanto dori in there training.

Gregory Rogalsky
Director of Rogalsky Combatives International

dainippon99
6th August 2001, 06:34
tomiki style has tanto dori in the 2nd dan part of the syllabus, but unique to the tomiki system is our regular practice of tanto randori. pretty much from the start, we "spar" (bad word, yet the only that comes to my mind) with tanto

PRehse
6th August 2001, 06:53
Originally posted by dainippon99
tomiki style has tanto dori in the 2nd dan part of the syllabus, but unique to the tomiki system is our regular practice of tanto randori. pretty much from the start, we "spar" (bad word, yet the only that comes to my mind) with tanto

Hi Bobby;

I was humming and hawing as to whether to include what we do but since you did - I'll add a bit.

First of all the tanto randori mimiks knife fighting but can not really be considered as training for the real thing since certain risks are taken with the only penelty being half a point. That said, lessons learnt can be applied to a real situation as long as the limitations of that particular training method are understood.

The tanto dori is based on real, common attacks. The attack for ushiro-ate has been a favourite of the Yakuza for a couple of hundred years or so and is today. The tanto dori kata are a wonderful set being quite brutal and direct in their own right - yes even the ura oshi-taoshi look at the entrance.

These techniques start on the assumption that there is some distance between you and the nasty person. Face it if the knife guy isn't distant he has already stuck you.

Several of the techniques easily adapt to the slashing attack but one must also remember the kata are not the final answer. They teach you what is important when facing such a weapon.

INFINOO
6th August 2001, 07:56
Thanks danippon99 and PRehse for the reply. I have seen some of the Tomiki Tanto-dori on vidio tape, pretty impressive stuff. From what I remember it was done full speed. Let me ask a question or two if you dont mind. Are there restrictions on the attacks that are used? I think the demo that I saw they were using wooden tanto and those things could kill you if they hit your throat with a thrust. My other questions if you would be so kind is what happens? I mean does uke win and then he gets a turn at being nage. Or do you just go for a certain amount of time and then add up the score?
My last question (for now) do you any work from uke being in newaza(on his knees)
In my classes we use hard rounded training knives, shaped and weighted like the knives we are likely to be carrying, with no edges and no point. We call them bluntys. They are good for solo work, practicing draw skills, grip manipulations and also for controlled partner training. Im not a big fan of rubber knives,(to much lateral instability) however they do have there place.
We place much emphasis on jamming nages draw in scenario training so that he or she cant get the knife out. Other drills we like are stuff like putting Uke on his back with nage sitting on his stomach or chest with knife in hand. Uke trys to not get cut, disarm the knife or if that fails roll nage off his chest, then disarm or lock nage up, and if that fails one way or the other, get up and escape. Its not always pretty(almost never) but good fun and valuble training none the less. If nage is winning to easy , we will send in reinforcements from the side line to help uke out.
I tell you , this is when all hell breaks loose. What a blast.
Thanks in advance
Gregory Rogalsky
Directon of Rogalsky Combatives International(RCI)

PRehse
6th August 2001, 08:35
Tanto randori uses a cloth knife - to get a full point the strike must meet certain criteria. If toshu (the guy without the knife) does not evade the tanto he can get penelty points even if the strike is not up to par. Usually tanto is tanto for a period of time 1.5 to 2.5 minutes after which he becomes toshu for the same amount of time. Skills that are being learnt here include judging ma-ai, taisabaki, timing and most importantly of all which techniques work when. Resistance and counters are allowed although in the latter case there are also a few restrictions. In toshu randori (both unarmed) there are less restrictions.

The tanto dori techniques are kata. They are usually practiced with the cloth knife although we occaisionally use the wooden one. The wooden knife is still a bit dangerous since the attack is done at full speed with the intent to deliver.

One of the things that the tanto dori makes obvious is that you really are not limited to those kata and in fact you see some interesting variations in freestyle kata the judging of which discourages fluff.

Basically one of the main premises of Kenji Tomik is that techniques can be distilled down. From our perspective the statement that Jujitsu style X is better because it has more techniques makes no sense. It is impossible to train for every scenario therefore there must be some way such as randori to introduce flexibility of action.

MarkF
6th August 2001, 08:54
Originally posted by dainippon99
tomiki style has tanto dori in the 2nd dan part of the syllabus, but unique to the tomiki system is our regular practice of tanto randori. pretty much from the start, we "spar" (bad word, yet the only that comes to my mind) with tanto

The other word you all ready had used; Randori, but you're right, sparring isn't the best word for it.
******

All situations happen under many different variations, so even with a half-point, everyone plays under the same rule. In a similar situation on the street, the attack determines the reaction so randori can be a very useful tool. I would be lying if I said "real" situations mean "real" trial and error. Something is usually missing, and in this case it is the unreality of training in the dojo with a weapon which is relatively safe. Rubber knives in the beginning are useful. I don't think training at that level with tanto bokken is necessary, but weighting them correctly is fine, although I wouldn't recommend carrying a real knife.

That said, my exposure to Shodokan ryu is very limited, but randori, I have a lot of experience. And fun is almost always a good training tool.;)

Mark

PRehse
6th August 2001, 09:13
Originally posted by MarkF

And fun is almost always a good training tool.;)


:mad: Fun has no place in Budo

:moon:

Gil Gillespie
6th August 2001, 15:45
There seem to be several topics of discourse contained in this thread. First as far as fun having no place in budo, that's an unfortunately myopic view of training. None less than Ueshiba Sensei himself insisted one should train with joy, and among the hundreds of classes wherein I've experienced exhileration, energy rushes, sensory stimulation and the above-mentioned joy, well those seem to define fun in most situations. I'd suggest rather that frivolous disrespect and/or horseplay have no place in budo. We train because we love it, right?

The larger theme here is the age old dichotomy between dojo training and street combat. Perhaps here is not the place for such digression. In our dojo we teach the assumption that uke is armed; it governs ma-ai, taisabaki, kuzushi, zanshin, etc. We're also taught that if ever facing a knife you're gonna get cut. (Give skin to save blood; give blood to save bone; give bone to save life.) It's not training to prepare for later; it's ichi go ichi e. It's NOW. I find myself in agreement with Mike Collins here (as I so often do). Reread his last 2 lines. He allows he may be wrong. I say he's not: we're training not to survive, but to live.

Well said.

Karl Kuhn
6th August 2001, 16:17
"First as far as fun having no place in budo, that's an unfortunately myopic view of training." Um, I think Peter was having a bit of fun there, actually, as evidenced by those smilie icons. I could be wrong. Is Honbu putting you on there straight and narrow there, Peter? hehe.......

For what it's worth,I have always considered the tanto attacks in Tanto Randori to be a way for training with full speed linear attacks rather than "knife fighting", per say. The eight inches of foam allows nage to deliver with out someone cracking a rib or worse. That being said, I think Tanto Randori is great tool to look at your ability to maintain the proper mai-ai and improve tai-sabaki. Very important when faces with a blade, right. Get distance and get out of the way.

I agree with Peter that the tanto-dori of the Goshin no Kata (Dai-San) is pretty distilled to show some directional approaches to tatnto attacks. The Freestyle katas (unfortunate that there will be no weapons kata in Osaka this year btw) are a great example of the diversity of applications from these core principles.

Cheers,
Karl Kuhn

INFINOO
6th August 2001, 17:19
Thanks everyone for the imput. The concept of "expect to get cut" has always been lost on me. While I admit the chances for injury are say better than 50% that you may be injured in this type of attack. I think its the wrong mind set to set the student up for "No matter what you do you will be cut." This in my mind is bad Budo. Confidence is a huge factor in these types of attacks. Besides , when you understand that a knife slash can render an arm useless. then you understand that your best defense may be your first oppertunity, because if that fails, it may be all down hill from there.
I had an intersting experience one time at knife seminar one time . I very skilled chinese military teacher demonstrated to me and anyone else who wanted a go , in no uncertain terms that we needed to change are approach to this whole tanto dori business. It was then I understood that that to defeat someone armed with a knife one must understand the nature of the knife. This includes the ways of attack. From that experience many years ago have changed how I look at knife defense forever. For Instance the idea of getting away is of no use at all, at least for me. For instance, the attacker takes a swing, you step back. What have you done? the attacker now has another chance at spilling your guts. :cry: Where as when the attacker steps forward and swings, and YOU STEP IN inside what we call the kill zone , and knock the attacker on his ass with Itemi. Break an arm , punch the throat ect....Now thats the idea. Itemi is 90% of this style of defense.Many punches but lots of open palm work as well. The concept is called "attack the controll" We have found this type of defense to work very well in the Do-jo and on the street. Not everyones cup of tea, but there you go.I feel that the reason for the success of this concept is that many attacker expect you to try keep there distance, back up, ect. Its almost as if when the attacker is attacking they tend to forget about defense. If a knife attaker has any weekness I think that may be it. If you have ever seen a knife wound up close and personal you will realize why I dont want to be cut, not even once. Thanks for your imput everyone. I hope there is more to come.
Gregory Rogalsky
Director of Rogalsky Combatives International

dainippon99
7th August 2001, 00:20
Hi peter, hows honbu?

of course i realize that tanto randori is not a knife fight. just training.

in one of his books, bruce lee makes a good point. the person with a weapon is at a disadvantage, becuase that person is only thinking "knife knife knife" or "bat bat bat", and due to this way of thinking, will only use that tool in a fight. He goes on to say that the martial artist has many weapons and must train themselves to learn to think with all of them, per se.

INFINOO
7th August 2001, 03:35
Good point about the Bruce lee quote. Did anyone read the artical in www.modernknives.com on the theory that Bruce lee's Straight blast came from western fencing. After having studied western bowie knife Meathods a good deal in the last five years and learning to go to point, I think there may be somthing to it. Not trying to get the wing chung guys mad at me or anything like that.
I think its a bit of a stretch to say the person with the weapon is at a disadvantage. I mean . Oh no, I have a knife and the other guy is unarmed I better give up? Im not sure this one holds water. IMO there is a huge difference between someone attacking with a knife and knife retention.
At Rogalsky Combatives International(RCI ) we have a little drill we like to call (Knife Retention 101) it goes somthing lke this. The person in the middle has a rubber knife with lipstick smeared over the edge and tip. Three or four empty handed attackers surround the GOOD GUY WITH THE KNIFE in the middle . Someone says GO and the choas begins. The good guys plan is to stay unencumbered, keep moving, protect his centerline and cut and stab anything that sticks out from the bad guys. while the evil empty handed attackers try everything in there power to GET the lone defender with knife off his feet.Or grab the knife hand. We like to play this drill in a open feild with lots of room. If you want to know what happens try the drill your self ,you may be surprised at the results. My secret(up to now) is backpedaling footwork, keeping the knife hand close to hip when not cutting and thrusting and most importantly using the live or non knife hand to ward away the others hands as they come to grab. Of course there is more to it than that just this, but this will point you in the right direction. I have seen beginners with as little as three hours of knife training(RCI) keep half a dozen men at bay with no problem. This may sound like Bull**** , but its true I swear. Try this drill with a couple of buddies next time you train and see for your self, its an absolute blast. By the way have everyone wear safety Goggles as the those rubber knives can still take a eye out.
Gregory Rogalsky Anti tantodori trainer :smokin:
Rogalsky Combative International (RCI)

Mike Collins
7th August 2001, 03:51
Tanto Dori is not so much about taking a knife from someone who wants to keep it, I believe it is more about creating and maintaining a proper combative distance, and leading an ATTACKER's intention to a point where a weakness can be exploited.

That is a very different thing from reaching out and offering a hand and/or foot for a filet.

That is about the 3rd or 4th time you've mentioned Rogalsky Combatives Inc.. Is the point to maintain a running dialogue and inserting at every possible opening, the edge of the name of a private enterprise?

In the tradition of Aikido maai, I believe this'll be the last time I check this particular thread, and thereby avoid the thrusts of your guerilla marketing campaign.

Well, I may check one or two more times to hopefully get an answer to this.. How old are you and how long have you been training that you've created your own science/art? I ask more to get a feel for your "chops" than to cast aspersions. Please take no offense at the question, none is intended.

PRehse
7th August 2001, 03:53
Hi Karl

"First as far as fun having no place in budo, that's an unfortunately myopic view of training." Um, I think Peter was having a bit of fun there, actually, as evidenced by those smilie icons. I could be wrong. Is Honbu putting you on there straight and narrow there, Peter? hehe.......Yes I was having fun but I tell you the boys are not just fixing up my technique but my approach to our little thing. Mental attitude and all that.

Hi Bobby
hows honbu?See above. The training has been tough on body and soul but well worth it.

Hi Gregory

The quote expect to get cut reflects more the old samurai adage of tossing aside the fear of death rather than a defeatist attitude. It does not mean No matter what you do you will be cut. - at least it shouldn't. As it point out getting cut is something that should be avoided.

Gil Gillespie
7th August 2001, 05:07
Thanks, Peter, for clearing that up. That warning re: getting cut emanates not from defeatism but from the spirit you mentioned as well as a sobering caution against overconfidence in dojo technique. The above post re: the unarmed defender having an advantage may seem preposterous, but the point about the armed assailant's tunnel vision re: his weapon does restrict him. It harkens back to Takuan Soho's thesis "The Unfettered Mind," which makes just such illustrations. It may not be a tactical advantage, but it's a mindset advantage, and that can accomplish wonders.

I admit that I have never encountered a knife in the real world. If that discredits my views here, so be it, but I hope it stays true.

Good lively thread, y'all. Thanks!

INFINOO
7th August 2001, 05:22
Mike collins: Im not sure what I did to rub you the wrong way. Do you mind telling me? As far as the posting Rogalsky Combatives International after my name, I beleive thats its with in my right to do so. As Rogalsky Combatives International is my company/School.Iv seen other people post there Dojo's after there name. Is it okay for them and not me . If so Why?. What problem do you have with this?.Is it the fact that It dosn't have a really cool Japenese name? I wonder. You seem to be very threatened with some of the things that Im sharing in this thread. Can you tell me why? Is it because I have differnt concepts and training meathods from your own.I hate to be the own to break it to you but Aiki concepts come in many shapes and forms. Just for the record Im 36 started my combative training in grade 6 in freestyle wrestling. A coach came to are juinor high and taught use after school. In grade 7 I was second in the province in my weight division.I guess he was a good coach as I still remember the three best tech he showed us. 1. a double leg take down. 2. Two on one go behind. 3. neck crank to hip toss. Hey mike , do you rembember the first three tech you learned 24 years ago? I wonder. Since then I have been lucky to train with some fine teachers of many styles and traditions.Did I put my own twist or mark on it , you bet . Damn proud of it. Putting all that a side , do you still not know that the roots of combat are all the same.Because they are . Lets keep this going , Im just warming up.

Gregory Todd Rogalsky
Director of Rogalsky Combatives International

Mike Collins
7th August 2001, 05:46
Whoa there big feller!!

You didn't do anything to rub me the wrong way. I actually thought you were doing some pretty cool marketing. I just have a little natural sales reluctance--but that's just me.

When I asked your age and time training, I was curious. I don't say it's wrong, on the face of it to start your own thing, I'm just curious about the type of work and time learning that a founder of his own system takes in going off on his own.

I believe (and I think that's my right) that 36 is a bit young to have delved fully into 1 art much less have studied several in any real depth to sufficiently understand martial principles enough to found an art.

But I honestly respect that you haven't come up with some weak, lame sounding asian name for the sake of perception.

No Mr. Rogalsky, of Rogalsky Combatives, Inc., You won't get a flame war from me, mine was a sincere question, and I tried sincerely to be plain what my reason for asking was.

Thanks for the response, but you saw aggression from me that wasn't there.

Mike Collins
7th August 2001, 05:56
And by the way, yes I do remember the first practical martial technique I learned, and it was more like 26-27 years ago.

Ya walk up to them while they're drinking a lot at the bar. Stand in that bad back angle, tap em on the shoulder, and swing one from the bootlaces, and hit em right square between the cheek, eye, and nose. Most of the time they go to sleep and you get the girl. Sometimes, they shake it off, and it's on. If they're tougher than you, you get a whuppin, and if you're tougher they get a whuppin.

But telling that stuff isn't particularly flattering about me.

I got into all of this Aikido stuff to learn how to deal with excess energy, I already knew how to fight. And for the record, I probably lost as many as I won, give or take a few. Show me someone who's scrapped on the street and never lost, and I'll show you someone who has no standards in opponents.

As to my being defensive regarding your methods, not at all, they are just different from those taught in the context of Aikido, and I was explaining the differences.

INFINOO
7th August 2001, 06:56
Hey Mike Collins; Sorry about the hair on my back standing up .Bad read on my part. My mistake . Im sorry. Please forgive me. Must get chip off shoulder . I was training for three hours in 30 degree heat to day. I guess Im still a little geared up. By the way I like you tech in the bar, good one.

Gregory Todd Rogalsky
Director Of Rogalsky Combatives International

dainippon99
7th August 2001, 07:43
uhhhh....anyway......

peter-
may honbu harden your body and soften your heart. :p

Dennis Hooker
7th August 2001, 14:04
Serious knife fighting and knife taking is best left to those that train in it everyday. It is a part of the Aikido curriculum yes, but in most cases it’s only a tool for studying maai, moving up to jo and ken, yari and juken (not so much yari and juken nowadays). It helps timing and if none in what “I “ (a very narrow view I admit) consider the right way offers little in the way of critical targets. The approach to the attacker is different than if the attacker were not armed and the choices I give him are more limited.

Also, Nage must become very aggressive in his defense. Once you make a decision to take the knife you go for it! You may only get one chance. It is important that the defender take on a new attitude if he has been passive or reactive in his Aikido. When dealing with weapons he must become aggressive. To me that the reason for using the knife in Aikido. Not so much for practical technique but to help nage better understand that as the saying goes “the best defense is a good offence”. To often Aikido students are passive and/or reactive when they should aggressive or pro-active. Meet aggression with aggression. There is a fine line between when the attacker attacks and you attack the attack. To me that is what weapon taking is all about. Making you act fast and without hesitation , picking up on uke’s intent quicker and adding an element of injury that must be dealt with.

INFINOO
7th August 2001, 17:47
Dennis Hooker: Great observations. The comment about the best defense is a good offense dosn't sit well with most Aikido folk that I have come across. However I think its right on the mark , good call. Someone told the hombu no longer teaches bokken or jo. If its true I wonder if the tanto is gone as well. The Semi-classical Aikido(if there is suce a thing) that I studied spent at least half the training, time with Sword, bokken,Jo,tanto and some naganata.Kata , kata and more kata. I think we were the exception not the rule , as far as Aikido schools go.
No one has really made the connection between Ken Dori and Tanto Dori yet. Do you think there is one? Or do you think that this is stretch?


Gregory Todd Rogalsky
Director of Rogalsky Combatives International

PRehse
8th August 2001, 06:13
Hi Dennis;

Also want to add my "great observations" to your post.

One of the main lessons of the Shodokan tanto dori is exactly as you describe even though generally there is much more of a pro-active bent to my particular variation of Aikido.

When the Ikeda school killings went down here some of the boys in the dojo were discussing the teacher who was seriously wounded trying to stop the attack. At the time I was still pretty badly shaken since by just a twist of fate my daughter was not going to that school. Anyhow the discussion was how would you deal with they guy - which technique would you use. I just asked in my broken Japanese - how many chairs are in a classroom.

If Aikido teaches us anything - it teaches flexibility.

dainippon99
8th August 2001, 07:29
i must echo what peter is saying:

how would i deal with a man with a knife?

is there a baseball bat handy?:p

The Void
8th August 2001, 10:42
I do believe that INFINOO's comments have merit, and now I would like to add just a little bit.

As Aiki is not a defensive art, but instead one that seizes the initiative, one that is proactive instead of reactive.

As Aikidoka are to adhere to the code of bushido, one that predicates duty to a greater good over personal safety, the need for self defense techiques are not required. So then why are we dealing with a knife wielding attacker, because we have to, because our wife and children are sleeping in the other room.


Controlling the situation would be the first thing, being open minded second, then seizing the initiative. The possible outcomes desired would be worst case scenerio mutual killing, but in all cases the danger would be nullified.

I truely believe that life should be filled with laughter and joy, training should be playing, coloring outside the lines henka henka henka. Training hard, accepting kata as just that kata, Identifying what are the core concepts of aiki. Once a person does this a practicioner is open to looking around and analyzing techniques and pruning yourself and techniques. If a conventional method of attack defense didnot work a person has to look at making it better utilizing other people arts to help make your aiki techniques better, as long as the aiki principals are kept intact.

I really appreciate INFINOO's comments because I'm sure he had reason to doubt the effectiveness of the way he was doing ie Tanto dori. Having said that it sounds like Mr Rovere had an impact on how things were done. Posting this thread is an excellent method of putting things in perspective. I'm sure that there are a lot of people on this site who have a lot of knowledge in the area of what are aiki concepts.

Doug Pleysier

Kolschey
8th August 2001, 11:11
Void,

Welcome to e-budo. Please take the time to sign your posts with your real name at the bottom. You can adjust your profile to do so automatically.
Many Thanks!

INFINOO
9th August 2001, 00:56
Hey Void: Thank your support. I agree with your comment about "the core principles of Aiki". If you can get those, than everything else falls in to place. Your also right on the mark with Mr.Rovere making an impression on my tanto dori experience. While I understand that not everyone who studies Aikido may be concerned with its effectivness as my self. Just as I am sure everyone has there own reasons to train. So be it. But Im I going out on a limb when I say that Aikido is still a Martial Art? Im not sure what everyones definition of Martial is but mine is war. The Sh** Hits the fan, bad guys trying to wipe you and your family off the face of the planet. For me going out side of your own system,(What ever that is) and testing and evaluating tech, training meathodolgys ,has been invaluable. At least for me. Sure, getting the bumps and bruises, and somtimes a lot worse along the way, as well as getting the ego checked is a small price to pay when considering the big picture. The thing I have never understood is I have known many Aikidoka that once shown a more effective, effecient way ie, better. Still, many can still not make the leap to change.Why is it so hard?. Is it disrepectfull to improve your art? I dont think so. At least not to me. I mean how spirital is bad tech, that gets you killed. Doing the same old thing dispite that someone just was nice enough to prove to them " that will get you killed" is beyond me. And Iv seen first hand more that one Aikido teacher to go off and teach the inferior principle/tech, after it has been shown not to hold water. Just because the new principle is out side of his/her so called "system" should be a crime. Everything can be made Aiki. "The Aikido practiced today may not work tomorrow". Ueshiba Morihei, Founder of Aikido

Gregory Todd Rogalsky
Director of Rogalsky Combative International

George Ledyard
10th August 2001, 08:03
Originally posted by INFINOO
Thanks everyone for the imput. The concept of "expect to get cut" has always been lost on me. While I admit the chances for injury are say better than 50% that you may be injured in this type of attack. I think its the wrong mind set to set the student up for "No matter what you do you will be cut." This in my mind is bad Budo. Confidence is a huge factor in these types of attacks. Besides , when you understand that a knife slash can render an arm useless. then you understand that your best defense may be your first oppertunity, because if that fails, it may be all down hill from there.
Gregory Rogalsky
Director of Rogalsky Combatives International

I think you miss the point of the concept. It's not that you train to get cut. Of course you train to do the most effective and direct technique possible. It's just that being cut is a very realistic expectation. if you have not accepted that fact, the realization that you have sustained a wound could very well put you into shock or cause you to hesitate. the whole point is to maintain a proper survival mindset allowing you to continue right to the end. Unfounded confidence is not going contribute to ones survival or to the effectiveness of ones technique.

Dennis Hooker
10th August 2001, 13:30
I support Ledyard Sensei on this 100 percent. I seen big tough guys go white faced and ashen and get weak because they seen the fat and muscle bubble up out of cut. Or seen the sickening white sight of their own white bone. I seen people balk at the sight of another persons wound, sometimes when they caused it. Get used to the idea of being cut and be prepared for it and then maybe, just maybe, you won’t be surprised when it happens.

Now if your talking about taking a knife away form a person that don’t really know how to use it then maybe a 50% chance of getting cut may be Ok. I seriously doubt that we will be that lucky with a trained knife fighter. It’s two different worlds.

When I teach street effective knife taking technique I use a version of an Israeli Special Forces technique and approach. I have found it to be the most realistic, and in trial exercise, effective system.

For those people that want to see a move with what I know as knife fighting see “Exposure” a film about a photographer in South America. I think sword people will see a few things common to edged weapon fighting. Maybe get a surprise or two.

George Ledyard
11th August 2001, 13:30
Originally posted by Mike Collins
Tanto Dori is not so much about taking a knife from someone who wants to keep it, I believe it is more about creating and maintaining a proper combative distance, and leading an ATTACKER's intention to a point where a weakness can be exploited.

That is a very different thing from reaching out and offering a hand and/or foot for a filet.

That is about the 3rd or 4th time you've mentioned Rogalsky Combatives Inc.. Is the point to maintain a running dialogue and inserting at every possible opening, the edge of the name of a private enterprise?

In the tradition of Aikido maai, I believe this'll be the last time I check this particular thread, and thereby avoid the thrusts of your guerilla marketing campaign.

Well, I may check one or two more times to hopefully get an answer to this.. How old are you and how long have you been training that you've created your own science/art? I ask more to get a feel for your "chops" than to cast aspersions. Please take no offense at the question, none is intended.

I don't think it is any less appropriate for this fellow to mention the name of the "company" under which this training is offered or has been developed than it is for me to mention the name of my dodjo as being a place where certain kinds of training methods are used that may be unique. It's not like he's peddling videos in this post or something.

Look at the content of the post! It contained a very clear description of some training exercises that were pertinent to the thread as a whole. Why focus on his use of the name of the training system rather than taking the post at face value. In some ways the use of the name starts to become a shorthand that contains a larger picture if one has read the various posts and has formed a view of what the "style" is all about.

"Commercial" implies that money is changing hands. I can't see where that is happening here or even what would be "for sale". Mr. Rogalsky is plugging his style or view of training. We're all doing that on some level. I think we should cut him some slack on this, his posts are worthwhile.

Mike Collins
11th August 2001, 19:03
Yup, you're absolutely correct. I had made the leap in logic that he was posting about his own method on an Aikido forum because he was hoping to get some "converts". I have, since that time come to rethink that position and now realize that he is talking about what he feels are aiki concepts.

I was wrong. And sometimes monkeys fall from trees.

INFINOO
13th August 2001, 01:22
Hi George Ledyard: Thanks very much for your post. It means a lot. Im glad you like some of my post.

Hey Mike collins: Thanks. Im sure we can can move on . I havn't heard that monkey falling out of trees joke since Tai-Chi. To funny.

Hi Dennis Hooker:
Nice call on the movie Exposer. A Classic. If Im not mistaken many of the drills came from FMA. The angles of attacks for sure. Anyway, good movie definitily worth a look for those that have never seen it. Look at Block Busters under Horror.
Dennis is it Krav Maga knife that you teach or somthing else. Military knife systems are gaining in popularity these days. There is "the system" in Toronto. Rovere's Chinese Military camp in Canada. And I hear that my friend Bill Bagwell is teaching the special forces Bowie knife Tech. To cool. Bill Bagwell and I met at a bowie Knife clinic in New Orleans. Bill makes as mean of fighting bowie as your likley to find, anywhere. Bagwell "Hells Belle" can perform in the role of short sword(for us Aiki types) quite nicley. Just so everyone knows what Im taking about the "Hells Belle" has dual horn gaurds and spanish notch, that can take away another man/womans knife in a heart beat with a twist of the wrist. This is easier to do than you think. All with out cutting him. Let me see here , BowieTantoDori Waza. How Aiki is that?