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yamatodamashii
8th July 2000, 22:08
There is currently a thread in the Judo forum regarding a throw called "Yama Arashi". I do not consider myself a Judoka, but I did have the opportunity to work out under a rokudan in Okinawa.
Quickly cutting to the point: My instructor, when the topic came up, said that "Yama Arashi" was an Aikijutsu technique. Could someone verify that for me? If YA is in the Daito-ryu curriculum, how it executed?

profsarj
10th July 2000, 00:01
Yama Arashi is the technique introduced by Shiro Saigo, then formerly of Daito Ryu Aiki Ju Jutsu, while competing under the Judo banner.

Hope that this info is useful.

Prof. Darrell Sarjeant

Brently Keen
10th July 2000, 04:51
It's a Daito-ryu secret. :D

Supposedly at the time, Shiro Saigo was the only one who could execute this technique (yama arashi). Although there are several other techniques that go by the name "yama arashi", Saigo's technique was not passed on in Judo. Even in Daito-ryu, there seems to be much speculation as to which technique it may have been.

Tradition has it that Shiro Saigo, the adopted son of Tanomo Saigo was the first designated heir of Daito-ryu's "oshikiuchi" from which Daito-ryu's aikijujutsu is said to derive. But eventually, Sokaku Takeda replaced him.

Supposedly, Saigo was torn between loyalty to Jigoro Kano and Daito-ryu, so he retired to Kyushu where he continued to practice only swimming and kyudo. He had no students and his "yama arashi" technique may have even died with him. Of course every imitation Daito-ryu group now claims a secret link to either Shiro and/or his adopted father Tanomo, because they have no link to Sokaku Takeda who as the reviver of the tradition (chuko no so), was the first to teach Daito-ryu to outsiders. But there is no evidence whatsoever to support these so called Saigo-ha claims.

Okamoto sensei has not said what he knows of this technique (yama arashi), prefering that we don't waste our energy memorizing the names of techniques, or speculating about history, but instead he says, "Just practice".

"If you master aiki", he says, "you can do yama arashi or any other technique." Then he does several differnt techniques, and each time he smiles and calls it "yama arashi". He was clearly implying that the name of the techniques don't mean anything.

There's no doubt that many folks today would like to discover what this mysterious technique may have been like, in the hopes that they might discover some "secret trick" that would enable them to defeat today's NHB champions. Childish fantasies aside, I interpret Okamoto sensei's comments to mean that even if this technique was passed down within Daito-ryu and known by him or any of the other Daito-ryu masters, that it would prove useless to everyone else unless they had first mastered "aiki", therefore he'd prefer that we train in such a way as to master the "essence" of Daito-ryu, rather than worry about various specific techniques. This is consistent with the idea that "aiki" is an essential component of Daito-ryu's rather unique operating system.

It was said by other "jujutsu/judoka" at the time that Saigo's techniques were unique to him. It wasn't just that no one else could copy his techniques, but also that Saigo was able to effectively use these sophisticated techniques against the most skilled and feared jujutsu fighters of the day. His skill was naturally attributed to the training he received as a youth in Aizu. Although he was he was competing in matches and tournaments for Jigoro Kano, helping to promote Judo at the time, it's generally understood that he used "aiki" techniques and principles he learned from the "oshikiuchi" in order to win. Although these rough and tumble challenge matches were a far cry from the Judo tournaments of today, they were still competetive matches.

Another time when asked about it, Okamoto sensei said something like, "Yama arashi is a technique for shiai, Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu is for real situations."

FWIW.

Brently Keen

MarkF
10th July 2000, 11:57
Originally posted by Brently Keen


Supposedly at the time, Shiro Saigo was the only one who could execute this technique (yama arashi). Although there are several other techniques that go by the name "yama arashi", Saigo's technique was not passed on in Judo. Even in Daito-ryu, there seems to be much speculation as to which technique it may have been.



I agree with Brently, as this is the story. No one knows anything for sure, and as many judo/jujutsu ryu which exist, there are at least that many descriptions and kata of yama arashi today. But the daito ryu is one of the hard to believe, if you believe Shiro to have been only about fourteen at the time he went to the Kodokan, but even this is somewhat in doubt. From where he came, is not, as his nickname was little "Aizu" warrior, and, as of this morning, there is a description of Okazaki's kata of yama arashi (Kodenkan or danzan ryu).

There is, of course, the story that he could have not used an aiki technique because he could not have had that much instriction in daito ryu. This one, I will leave to whomever wants to reveal it, as it matters little.

I also agree with Brently in that names of technique do not matter at all. My second, and last, instructor, had never taught by way of terminology, even though he was from Japan, so there is good thinking here, as well. To this day, after thirty-seven years of judo, I must look at a book or the handout I have just given my students for the techniques they will be learning in the next however many weeks. This is either due to my teacher or my memory. I do not remember which :D . Naming techniques, especially if you do not speak the language, has little to do with waza. Doing the waza is always of much more importance. Now this is not what my elders or peers think, in general, but it does have merit. The stories of a clash between Takeda Sokaku and Kano Jigoro are just that: stories. Either way, what I know of Saigo Shiro, is that he did leave the Kodokan and did go on to do kyujutsu (kyudo). He did win the most infamous of judo shiai, or shi ni ai, and with a technique called yama arashi. Minutes were taken at the shiai but know one knows for sure. The novel Sugata Sanshiro gives us a hint in that it was written by the son of one of the contestants in those matches. The movie by that name is so censored, as to only give the appearance that it may have been a throw in which the foot does leave the ground, and it also hints that uke was thrown across the room. To see a fun, if not accurate description of the match, go to: http://www.furyu.com/archives/issue3/judo.html . But this match was sensational only in that little Shiro beat a man of fearsome talent, and of much larger build. It was another match, a draw, after 55 minutes of fighting, which is the one said to be that which put judo "on the map" to stay. The use of an aiki technique is as plausible as every other waza which is said to be YA, and, at the very least, it did leave a trail to the plausibility for aiki. Go to the judo forum for a discussion of yama arashi, and to another thread there which has taken a turn into YA territory as well, titled "poorly executed waza in shiai," I think is what it is.

Sincerely,

JOEY
11th July 2000, 06:15
I HAVE SEEN AN INTERPRETATION OF YAMA ARASHI BY OBATA SENSEI IN TH BOOK Samurai Aikijitsu. Kodokan Judo also has a version but it is no longer in the sylallabus

Brently Keen
11th July 2000, 08:13
While I mean no disrespect to Obata sensei, he is a strong aikido teacher and very accomplished swordsman. I do not believe the book "Samurai Aikijutsu" is an authorative book about Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu techniques or history.

I believe the title more accurately reflects not the content of the techniques in the book, but rather the premise of the book which strongly stresses the legacy of the samurai spirit which still survives in some aikido styles. Obata sensei seems to lament the general tendency of most modern aikido styles to emphasize the "do" to such an extent that they lose their martial effectiveness. So the title of the book emphasizes "jutsu" instead of "do".

The book also naturally reflects Obata sensei's own philosophy and "hard style" aikido which is basically like the Yoshinkan Aikido he learned under the late Gozo Shioda sensei.

While I'll probably get flamed for saying this (I always do) it's not my intention to revive the old aiki debates. So please let's not go there again, ok? I just want to clarify what I believe, as a Daito-ryu practitioner are popular misconceptions or myths about aikijujutsu.

IMHO, the idea that Yoshinkan Aikido = aikijujutsu is incorrect. While Yoshinkan Aikido does reflect the more martial, prewar "Aikibudo" of Ueshiba sensei, both resemble (Daito-ryu) jujutsu much more than they do aikijujutsu. In Daito-ryu there is a very important distinction between the two.

Aikijujutsu is not hard style, throw him into a brick wall, combat aikido. Nor is aikijujutsu defined by painful joint locks and breaks or atemi. Aikijujutsu is soft, very soft and subtle in it's application.

Sorry for the digression here, but despite the title of the book, the techniques described in "Samurai Aikijutsu" are aikido techniques and should not be confused with aikijujutsu techniques. As for Obata sensei's version of yama arashi? My seniors in Japan didn't think so, but then again who knows if anyone knows for sure?

Brently Keen

Nathan Scott
12th July 2000, 02:52
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Brently Keen
12th July 2000, 09:47
Nathan,

Please feel free to call me Brently. I'm not surprised at all, I wouldn't have expected you to flame the hell out of me. I was anticipating that some others might try to rehash the old debates as soon as I said something about Daito-ryu aiki being different than aikido though.

I'm quite aware that "Samurai Aikijutsu" was published before very much was known about Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu. I think that Obata sensei deserves a lot of credit and respect for what he has accomplished in the martial arts. It doesn't surprise me either that Obata sensei concurs with more recent discoveries regarding Daito-ryu history. His translation of Yamamoto Kansuke's "Heiho Okugisho" is a favorite of mine that I like to quote often.

As far as I'm concerned though, the jury is still out on "oshikiuchi". I do not agree with the conclusions that some folks are drawing recently. Let's just say that I think there's more speculation going on than research.

Please remember that Daito-ryu as a tradition or system includes both jujutsu and aiki (or aikijujutsu), they are very different. Traditionally, when one begins to study the system of Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu they are only taught jujutsu in the beginning. The Shoden level in Daito-ryu is jujutsu. The Daito-ryu hiden mokuroku (also sometimes called the shoden mokuroku) is made up of 118 "jujutsu" techniques.

Much of the confusion comes from the fact that Sokaku made a change in the name and started referring to his art as a whole as "Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu". At that point the mokuroku's he issued reflected this change, and "aiki" was added to the description of the art. However the content of the hiden mokuroku (118 jujutsu techniques) did not change. Shioda sensei and several other students of Ueshiba received this same mokuroku. People naturally mislabeled the jujutsu techniques as aikijujutsu techniques.

As for the book "Aikijujutsu Ogi" I believe the title was a result of this same misunderstanding (either that or a marketing ploy), because the vast majority of the techniques come straight from the Daito-ryu "jujutsu" curriculum, not the "aiki no jutsu" curriculum.

Likewise, I believe that Tokimune sensei and/or Kondo sensei have at different times both used the terms Aikijujutsu and Aikibudo perhaps interchangeably. When we watch Kondo sensei give a demonstration of the art of Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu he usually (until very recently) only demonstrated techniques from the Ikkajo series, the first basic jujutsu techniques in the hiden mokuroku. The vast majority of all the techniques Kondo sensei has demonstrated on publically available video tapes are all jujutsu techniques. Therefore any resemblance we see between Yoshinkan Aikido and Kondo sensei's demonstrations are primarily a resemblance to the "jujutsu" techniques of Daito-ryu, not the "aiki" techniques.

As you said, in Daito-ryu we have our own definition of aiki, and the distinctions between it and jujutsu are both clear and important. I have not seen or felt Obata sensei's "aikiage" technique so I cannot comment on that, but I will say that although Aikido's "kokyu-ho" and Kashima Shinryu's "reiki no ho" both resemble Daito-ryu's "aikiage" they are in fact quite different.

It would be interesting to hear Obata sensei's thoughts on the yama arashi technique and/or any recollections he might have of Shioda sensei's feelings about it.

Regards,

Brently Keen

Nathan Scott
12th July 2000, 18:37
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Brently Keen
12th July 2000, 20:07
Nathan,

Well put, I pretty much agree with your whole summary. Especially about Sokaku Takeda's view that aiki was the essence or core of Daito-ryu, and that any Daito-ryu techniques performed at the highest level would likely include some aiki or elements of aiki.

You are correct that Shioda sensei had an ongoing interest in Daito-ryu and aiki. However, I believe some of the stories floating around on another BB are incorrect, and/or misleading. Out of respect for the parties involved, I'd rather not discuss the details of what I know in public though.

I think this has been a profitable discussion. :)

Regards,

Brently Keen

Nathan Scott
16th May 2006, 00:49
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Nathan Scott
16th May 2006, 01:12
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Nathan Scott
16th May 2006, 02:41
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judasith
18th May 2006, 10:35
I recently wrote a 6-pages article on an italian Martial Arts newspaper regarding the famous Judo/Jujutsu tournament and Yama Arashi.

I do not really believe that Shiro Saigo knew anything in Daito-ryu more than the very first techniques. So I guess the best explanation is the simplest, Yama Arashi was a modified version of the one by the same name in Kodokan Judo.

To spice the article a little, we also showed a different theory, saying maybe Yama Arashi was Daito-ryu's Kuruma Daoshi, based on ease of application and the written description, which is a perfect fit.

But I do not believe Kano cheated in the tournament, they won because the most dangerous techniques were forbidden and the judo guys were very good on applying with great force and efficiency less-than-lethal techniques and nage. It was a tournament with different purposes than "real fight", I don't know if they met each other on the streets at night which of the two system would have won.

Raff
18th May 2006, 15:54
Much to my surprise dear Giacome, I must say that for once I disagree with your theory. First of all and before carrying it on, could you please send me your article in subject, I’m very interested.

To start with, Jigoro Kano is very often called Professor Kano, very rarely Sensei, Shihan and/or Kancho, how come the founder of the most famous Japanese martial art is called Professor rather than Sensei?

Pr Kano was not a fighter or a martial phenomenon, he certainly was a very dedicated student truly devoted to the preservation of the various Ryu-ha but as far as I know, he was never famous for defeating any worthy opponent. Even though Pr Kano is the founder of Kodokan Judo his skills are not nearly to be compared to those of Ueshiba, Sokaku Takeda or Mas Oyama.

If we look very carefully at Kano’s martial background, we find out that he had studied Tenjin Shiny’o Ryű and Kito-Ryű for a very short period of time, his Senseis being actually quite old (actually at least two of them soon passed away forcing the young Jigoro Kano to seek out a new teacher), in reality, Kano hardly studied for 4 years before founding the Kodokan, and, there is another aspect often underrated, the Dojo Kano trained in had indeed very few students, we can easily say that Koryu at that time were simply passing out.

The rest is history, the first student to sign the enrollement book was one of the famous Shitenno: Tsunejiro Tomita whose son is the author of Sugata Sanshiro, I think that Saigo was the 8th or 9th student to join the Kodokan, it is worth mentioning that Kano had previously met Saigo at the Tenjin Shiny’o Ryű Dojo.

It is an indisputable fact that Saigo was already a skilled martial artist far superior to Kano when he entered the Kodokan, he was the first one to defeat and convert!!! The first challengers who stepped by the Kodokan, one of those who were defeated by Saigo is nobody less that Sakujiro Yokoyama an exponent of another Ryű (I can’t remember the name at the moment) know as the Demon, I guess that somebody bearing such a nickname must have been a feared fighter, Yokoyama was also Kyuzo Mifune Teacher. After losing to Saigo, Yokoyama joined the Kodokan becoming one of the Shitenno.

So, I guess that if Kano did not cheat, he was at least clever enough to get the best fighters of the time to defend the Kodokan. It certainly did help a lot even if it should not downplay Kano’s pedagogy and training methods.

I would like to add a last word about the famous Police Department Tournament, the Koryu were fading, the Pax Tokugawa was certainly bearing a great responsibility in that loss of both combative spirit and skills. The Kodokan won because they were far better prepared than the exponent of the other schools and also because the Koryu believed that they would easily despatch the Kodokan players.

Some scholars are now expressing a brand new theory about Yama Arashi: Some argue that it could be a description of Saigo’s fighting style, I tend to support that theory.

judasith
18th May 2006, 16:07
Hi Raff!

Long time no see...

You're probably right, and we'll never know the truth in any case.

I'll send you a pdf of my article by email, as soon as I scan it...

Hope to see you this summer!

Giacomo

Raff
18th May 2006, 16:23
Thanks Giacomo, I also hope to come but kids are taking time away from me.

Ciao

Nathan Scott
28th August 2007, 02:42
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Scott Harrington
29th August 2007, 04:31
One of the difficulties of Daito-ryu is 1) the many branches from Takeda Sokaku and 2) the small portal of information from Japan with closed sources or translation of material.

Sometimes in a discussion, I tend to see ‘data mining’ from only a small vein of Stanley Pranin, those few that have crossed the pond, or others like Chris Li who translate material and reprint / comment. Ad nauseum repeating (though we forget there are always new readers) can get to you. Broadening the source base is certain to bring fresh ideas and undiscovered material.

One of the most common stories we hear about is the yama arashi technique of Saigo Shiro, supposedly used to great effect in defense of Kano’s newborn Kodokan Judo, struggling to gain respect over the koryu grappling arts. And over time, lost to judo, versions abounding from Mifune to Obata, it is the bogie monster waza to scare the white belts after a hard practice and a round of drinks

A new source is the recent publication by Kogen Sugasawa of a three book series on Daito-ryu. His lineage is Sokaku Takeda – Takuma Hisa – Kozui Tsuruyama – to Sugasawa. This is available from www.budovideos.com.

With a short one page explanation (Please, I need a translation!!!!) and five photographs, this version is eye-opening in several regards. And especially because of it’s comparison with the myths.

1. It begins from a ‘judo’ like grab on the sleeve.
2. It involves a leg sweep (which Saigo Shiro supposedly used.)
3. It is extremely difficult to take ukemi from (I’ve tried – it hurts!)

All these matters are in the myth, the yama arashi cutting down the jiu jitsu with great effect.

With the addition of some principles of Daito-ryu I’ve been told from several sources, and also a nearly throwaway line from the “Daito-ryu Aikibudo” by Antonino Certa, it is a very dangerous and effective technique.

So, a new source shows a different version, comes from the Daito-ryu lineage, and meets many of the requirements from commentators. Give it a try, but be warned – the ukemi is rough!!!! Let me throw you first.

Scott Harrington
co-author of “Aiki Toolbox: Exploring the Magic of Aikido”

George Kohler
29th August 2007, 05:28
The dates and preceding scenario are possible, but the significant contradiction between Sokaku's quote and when Saigo Shiro actually died is a big problem in my eyes.

After reading your post I was reminded how sometimes people could make assumtions/mistakes about others passing away, including their own family members.

For example:

When I first met my wife (GF at the time) in Savannah, GA around 1990 my wife mentioned how my Copenhagen snuff reminded her of her Grandfather, since that is what he use to use. I asked her where he was and she told me that he died sometime ago.

Fast forward to 1997, when I was doing some genealogy work and I had a social security disk that listed the death records of almost everyone before 1996. When I did a search on him the CD said that he died in 1994. Of course I questioned her again and she didn't remember which year he died, but she said that it was before she met me in 1990. So I questioned her Mother and she stated that the family moved him to a different "old folks" home just before 1990 because he couldn't move around anymore (whatever that means). She also stated that he died when we moved to Texas in 1994, so my wife didn't hear about it.

I'm not saying that that what happened with Takeda Sokaku, I just wanted to give a different perspective on all this.

Samurai Jack
30th August 2007, 04:11
It is and will be a Never Ending Story.

Samurai Jack
30th August 2007, 04:13
This is why. Those of us in the martial-arts for sometime understand the concern. There are those who will procure any tatter, or slim obscurity of history to be fabricated it into justification, that is difficult to argue, into some form of credibility. The capitalizing on thin obscure oral information that is almost impossible to verify, is repugnant. Yet, for many styles that was the case, a repeated camp fire story passed on, or a misunderstood earshot of a conversation placed out of context overtime becomes the "stuff" that ignited some styles into acceptance (by default) into the ranks of the elite martial arts. Old news...right?

The discerning mind will see the concern put forth by Nathan as valid, thus suspending judgment. Those with imbued constitutions of opposition will continue to pursue their claims in zeal.

None of what I said will have bearing on what can’t be reconstructed concerning Shiro and Takeda, despites any more bone fragments found. Therefore, this leaves a Never Ending Story to be debated endlessness, or until someone says “uncle.”

My prediction is related to the same properties as water. Overtime, there will be a wearing down. In the same way water reduces a rock to a smooth stone to a pebble, to a grain of sand. As I see it now, the rock’s rough edges are becoming smooth.

What ever the outcome, it will always be a Never Ending Story.

Samurai Jack
31st August 2007, 04:01
Here is a major problem I see is with this Daito ryu thing, the over-exposure, i.e. the marketing of tapes, and seminars. Why? It is the dissemination of selected information that is protean. The reason for this, I gather, is one of a myopia perspective of the disseminator. The result is the cry, "Beati possidentes!" heard by the middling arts to graft and assimilate these disseminated techniques for their purpose constructing their Golden Calf of lineage. Lineage of course equates the Holy Grail of legitimacy. That is if option A fails. That would be, to sway the masses your art came from God's (or gods) kit and caboodle.

How do you fight that? How do you fight your self inflicted contusion from the result of a self subscribed myopia, ego, politics, etc, because of a modern daimyo-ish behavior? Like the old saying goes, you made your bed, now you have to sleep in it. The damage is done and it can't be reverse for Daito ryu. The road will be long and hard to purify the muddy waters. Yet for the middling arts (vagabonds) no matter what evidence is brought forth, it will not cease their solid piggy-backing for legitimacy on Daito ryu. The masses are easily swayed, and eager to subscribe to the instantaneous, and easily attainable accolade arts; willing fish to take the bait. Thus, the new connection that was will be between Shiro and Takeda.

My rant, I know this post has a bleak outlook and it isn't a set of posts that give the warm cozy academic feel to them which people can glean information and to be enlightened from. But, this is case is not unique to Daito ryu, Daito ryu is just one of the latest victims. Victim to a modern standard in martial arts due to the modern techno info age of recording devices and media and the techno dissemination of information to a mass audience has people seeing capitalistic opportunity. In the future the degrading of those arts who once held fast to a different standard and values for so many generations, will lose out to cheap, easy and accessible trinket arts in a display window. What art will be left in time that will truly be special, that one exotic archetypal art that held us in awe, that dripped with tradition, culture, and purity that so greatly inspired us toward the arts?

Now you can find that special art at Wally-mart, E-Bay or on MySpace, packaged for $35.99 that comes with an instructional DVD by the master himself, who will tell you all the secrets you need to be a master. It also includes a poster of six different colored belts you can hang on your wall including a real stone washed master Black Belt. But that is not all, you will also get an amplified deadly moves DVD with super-amped virtual weapons you can use anywhere. But that’s not all, you will also get a life size replica of a master certificate and color poster of lineage. Every one can be a cheap cardboard cut out jedi master. PIMP MY MARTIAL ARTS!

Samurai Jack
31st August 2007, 04:23
Correction: Thus, the connection that wasn't, will now exist between Shiro and Takeda.

Flintstone
10th September 2007, 22:08
BTW, I have no idea where the version of Yama Arashi comes from. I've asked him [Obata Sensei] once, but I forget exactly what he said. :(

Everybody seems to have their own idea...
Excuse me, Nathan, but is the following the version Obata Sensei is teaching?

http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/1999/yamaarashiqf8.gif

If it is, it is the very same that we call Yama Arashi in Nihon Taijutsu.

Thanks!

TimothyKleinert
11th September 2007, 00:41
I've seen a throw similar to Yama Arashi in Hakuho-ryu (formerly Hakuho-kai Daito-ryu), it's called Kuruma Daoshi.

The attack is Yokomen, let's say with the right hand (tori's left side). Tori raises his left hand to block, then steps slightly left & pulls uke off balance (to the left). Tori then places his back (right) foot behind uke's front leg, and presses down uke's attacking arm. Ideally, the momentum should be enough to cause uke to fall, but if needed, tori can kick back and sweep uke's leg.

Hakuho-ryu kata also utilizes various sleeve and collar grabs (for attacks).

Nathan Scott
24th September 2007, 21:19
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Flintstone
25th September 2007, 08:40
I've never heard of "Nihon Taijutsu", but yes, the version you pasted is one of two versions Obata Sensei taught. The only difference between the two versions is the setup. It's a very tight, strong throw, "yama arashi" or otherwise.
Nihon Taijutsu is the name that Roland Hernaez gave to his training methodology based on Minoru Mochizuki's Yoseikan. I would say it is the jujutsu part of the Yoseikan, more than Aiki, what Hernaez Sensei used to create Nihon Taijutsu.

I feel curious that our Yama Arashi is the same as Obata Sensei's. Maybe there is a connection via Yoseikan?

Nathan Scott
3rd October 2007, 17:52
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Flintstone
3rd October 2007, 22:43
To my knowledge, Obata Sensei has never associated with anyone from Yoseikan. He has always stuck close to Yoshinkan. As you know, his version of Yama Arashi was published in the late 80's in both book and video formats. This is probably a more likely source of the similarity.
Only note that Nihon Taijutsu was officially recognized by Mochizuki Sensei in 1973. So if the similarity is not coming from Yoseikan, then either it's coming from before (ie. "Ueshiba Ha" Daito Ryu) of from after 1973... In either case, Obata Sensei is not the source for it, as you seem to imply.

Nathan Scott
4th October 2007, 01:22
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Flintstone
4th October 2007, 12:18
If there is an identical, or even similar version of "Yama Arashi" that predates Obata Sensei's publication, I'd be very interested in learning more about it. My first question would be - when was the yama arashi technique incorporated into Nihon Taijutsu? Since it's inception, or at some point afterwards? I would assume that the technique was passed down from Mochizuki Sensei if it is in your art. Can you verify any of the above?
I will try to find that out. If the technique has been there from the begining then it must have been passed down (only?) to Yoshinkan and Yoseikan from Ueshiba Ha Daito Ryu.

I'll come back to you.

Thanks,

Nathan Scott
6th October 2007, 00:34
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DCS
7th October 2007, 22:42
I had this technique demonstrated to me by an aikido instructor who has been at some Alain Floquet (also a Mochizuki deshi) seminars.

Nathan Scott
3rd October 2008, 21:01
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STORMCROW
21st October 2008, 16:34
If there is an identical, or even similar version of "Yama Arashi" that predates Obata Sensei's publication, I'd be very interested in learning more about it. My first question would be - when was the yama arashi technique incorporated into Nihon Taijutsu? Since it's inception, or at some point afterwards? I would assume that the technique was passed down from Mochizuki Sensei if it is in your art. Can you verify any of the above?

Regards,

Going out on a limb here. I remember recently seeing a TSKR video on this site of an entry similar to that previous Yama arashi animation. I'd watch it again to verify but I am having trouble viewing video recently. The Sensei, I believe he was Risuke Otake Sensei, was demonstrating but didn't finish the throw....but it looked like it was there.

As I'm sure you know, Minoru Mochizuki Sensei was highly ranked in TSKSR (among other arts) and was a friend and contemporary of Sugino Sensei.

Flintstone
21st October 2008, 16:45
I remember recently seeing a TSKR video on this site of an entry similar to that previous Yama arashi animation. I'd watch it again to verify but I am having trouble viewing video recently. The Sensei demonstrating didn't finish the throw....but it looked like it was there.
What video could it be? Can you paste a link here? Thanks!

STORMCROW
21st October 2008, 16:50
What video could it be? Can you paste a link here? Thanks!

I believe it is one of these google videos. Sorry I can't be more specific, as I mentioned earlier, I can't view these videos at this time.

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41423

Flintstone
21st October 2008, 21:10
I believe it is one of these google videos. Sorry I can't be more specific, as I mentioned earlier, I can't view these videos at this time.

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41423
Thank you for the link! But I cannot find a similar movement in those. I see, however, another movement we do in Nihon Taijutsu: the me uchi. And it's the very same technique. I always believed it came from the Shorinji Kempo that Roland Hernaez studied... Interesting. Thanks again.

STORMCROW
21st October 2008, 21:18
Thank you for the link! But I cannot find a similar movement in those. I see, however, another movement we do in Nihon Taijutsu: the me uchi. And it's the very same technique. I always believed it came from the Shorinji Kempo that Roland Hernaez studied... Interesting. Thanks again.

You're welcome Mr. Villanueva. Are you speaking of the part where Otake Sensei is demonstrating various techniques for his interviewer and then he says something about judo and walks through the entrance to ippon seionage? The moment directly after? That was the part I was talking about in my previous post. I'm not sure if it is the same as Yama arashi, but to my eye it looked similar to the animation previously posted. I saw it a few days ago and I'm no expert.

STORMCROW
22nd October 2008, 02:33
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=katori+shinto&emb=0&aq=1&oq=katori#q=katori%20shinto&emb=0&aq=1&oq=katori&start=130

This is what I saw starting at about 10:40. I guess he doesn't turn all the way, but to a beginner like myself, it looks similar.

Flintstone
22nd October 2008, 09:03
This is what I saw starting at about 10:40. I guess he doesn't turn all the way, but to a beginner like myself, it looks similar.
Well, the entry is related... but different. In Yama Arashi you grip his right wrist with your left hand and his lapel with your right. Then turn into uke from the outside and you get a strangle hold plus elbow hiperextension. Then tori decides, throw over the shoulder a la seoi nage, or give uke a exit trough kind of tai otoshi.

Me uchi is the atemi to the eyes seen at 10:18, used as a distraction.

And, please, call me just Alex ;)

Nathan Scott
6th January 2009, 20:51
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Nathan Scott
6th January 2009, 21:27
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Hissho
6th January 2009, 21:42
C'mon, Nathan, conjecture isn't evidence. This doesn't even rise to "reasonable suspicion." Accepting it would also mean that Kano was a liar in this case.

Tengu
7th January 2009, 04:25
Interesting post
I wish I could really add some stuff and not make just a empty comment

The theory that Yama Arashi is more like the style of fighting of Saigo is not just unlikely. But untrue. Yama Arashi was a part of Kodokan Judo.
I asked my university Judo Sensei how would be a Yama Arashi.
He said he was not expert in doing it, but show me what it would be like. (and appeard to be a verry strong throw in my opinion, but I am mudansha)
So he gave me a copy of one very interesting book owritten by Conde Koma (Mitsuyo Maeda) in 1935 that included Yama Arashi in the list of Kodo-Kwan Judo (in that time portugese had no standartization of translation and stuff to japanese) as some other techniques that do not exist in kodokan Judo of today.
So even if Saigo was the only one to use it in competition (shiai or whatever) it do not means that they didn´t trained it. and reagardless the origin, it reached Kodokan Judo and become for a time one of It´s thecniques

I do not think Kano had just lied. This coud be just his interpretation of what he saw. If. But this is only my opinion.

Nathan Scott
7th January 2009, 06:56
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Ellis Amdur
7th January 2009, 08:18
Nathan - I won't go into exhaustive detail here, (I'm addressing some of these <elsewhere - hopefully pub. in the spring> but a few points:
1. Saigo was adopted AFTER he was in Tokyo. When did he come? Age 14 or was it 16?
2. There is little evidence that he had much contact with Tanomo - period. During his childhood, Aizu was at war and Tanomo was pretty busy. He was either an illegitimate son (who was NOT raised in the same home) or a distant relative, orphaned by war.
3. He had little contact with Tanomo once he was in Tokyo - except, we may conjecture, by letter.
4. There is a lack of evidence - total lack, actually - that Tanomo did any bujutsu training, other than assertions by Tokimune.
5. I've never - ever - heard of any claim that Saigo and Takeda were acquainted. Where did you get that? Furthermore, Saigo left Tokyo after only a few years, when to the south of Japan, and other than kyudo, all accounts known claim that he discontinued all martial arts practice. Takeda, it has been asserted, was friends with Kano - that would have been post 1900 - and Saigo Shiro was long gone by the time that such acquaintance would have happened. On the other hand, I've read others who state that they didn't know each other. Personally, I doubt they did. My reason is that Kano was so blown away by UEshiba - if you read Mochizuki's account, he doesn't say anything like, "Wow, this guy is just like my good friend, Takeda." Instead, Kano was apparently startled by Ueshiba's skills - and delegated some people to "get" them and bring them back to the Kodokan. If he had been friends with Takeda - given how he tried to incorporate anything strong into the Kodokan (note how he tried to do this with Funakoshi, and with different koryu) - he surely would have tried, openly, to get Takeda to teach him or more likely, his students. This is speculation, I admit, but it follows a pattern of Kano's whole life. Heck, he openly describes researching Western wrestling books to figure out a technique to beat a massive sempai in Tenjin Shinyo-ryu, I believe, and came up with a version of kataguruma. This is a remarkably open, unegotistic man - in that day and age, he "admits" incorporating a western technique to win against a compatriot.
6. Yes, the skills that Saigo is described as having are remarkable - much like some descriptions I've heard of Mifune, for example. But one statement by Arima - who, btw, was not the best historian in other respects - does not establish much at all. I remember asking one prominent Kodokan teacher how good Saigo must have been. And his reply - "consider the times. There weren't many people training - and the art as really developed. They didn't even have uchikomi practice. He was probably like a good college yondan today." I'm not asserting my informant (who had never seen him) was right either. Just that it's even easier to fantasize about Saigo than Takeda or Ueshiba.
My point is this - you have a kid who is described by his teacher as a beginner. And after assiduous practice becomes remarkably good - just like some high school champion judo players today. How could he have at hidden aiki skills - that suddenly blossomed? Nobody describes him as walking in with anything. Defies logic.
And on another matter, Kano was not the kind of man who was so insecure as to hide the skills that his students might have walked in with and claimed for himself. Quite the contrary - his whole history - he recruited people from other martial arts to teach at the Kodokan.
Best
Ellis

Hissho
7th January 2009, 14:11
In my opinion, Nathan, its conjecture, at a considerable remove from the time and people in question.

Its good you won't be putting them forward in a court of law because they would fail to meet any evidentiary standard. Sticking to this line of thought DOES imply Kano is a liar, or at minimum deceitful (including to himself, in his own private papers), without any evidence of any sort that he was such a man in either public or private life.


Isn't there equal evidence to state that - stipulating that Saigo did come to Kano with some previously learned knowledge of Daito-ryu - that he was unable to make it work (or even to last during intensive keiko) until after he trained with Kano.

Hmmm. That makes sense to me.

Stay Safe!

lucky1899
7th January 2009, 20:07
I think the use of the term "liar" is too strong. Certainly, Ellis isn't calling Tokimune a liar since there is oral history claiming Saigo did train in Daito Ryu. Differences in accounts come from perspective. Even if Saigo was a really good fighter, maybe he didn't want to "show off" the first year and stuck to doing elementary judo...maybe not. One has to give doubt to the story being completely truthful or completely false.

Yours in Budo,

Andrew De Luna

Nathan Scott
7th January 2009, 20:18
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Nathan Scott
7th January 2009, 20:40
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