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Neil Hawkins
15th August 2001, 01:37
This article from Black Belt Magazine is recieving a lot of coverage on the various e-mail lists (mostly negative).

Secrets of the Blade (http://w3.blackbeltmag.com/featurecontent/view.asp?article=24)

It features Lynn Thompson from Cold Steel and brings up some interesting points. Cold Steel make some good knives, what's Lynn's background?

Coments on the article?

Regards

Neil

joe yang
15th August 2001, 02:06
Hmmmmm?

Kolschey
15th August 2001, 02:21
Myself, I have no experience in any sort of knife instruction, so I confess that I probably was not able to determine what elements of the article would have been most likely to raise the hackles of more experienced practitioners. I would be interested in hearing more about the feeedback you have seen so far on other lists. I'm sure you have your own opinions too, which I definitely look forward to hearing!

Neil Hawkins
18th August 2001, 03:48
Well, I'm not going to quote from off-line lists, but suffice to say the responses mostly ridiculed Thompson, there was no detailed discussion on what they didn't like. Which is why I thought I would bring it here.

I have to admit that I didn't think it was that bad, there were a couple of things I don't agree with but on the whole it was common sense stuff. Much too general to pick holes in, you have to actually see the defenses and so on for that. I would be interested to see the next half and Thompson in action.

But I know you want my opinions so here goes. My main concern about the article is the fact that it is there at all, I don't agree with advocating the use of lethal weapons in street encounters.

Before you start heating up your flames, I have nothing against people training under a competent instructor in the defensive use of any weapon. I just don't think a glossy magazine with a readership who's average age is below 20 is the place to be discusing the finer points of lethal tactics.

I know that the Internet is probably worse in some ways, but at least we temper our discussions and give all sides. Magazines give one point of view and rarely is it questioned in the same forum.

But anyway, back to fighting with knives. I think Thompson makes too big a thing about moving and creating distance. These are important, but a good knife fighter will not give you the time to move much and he certainly won't let you create a big opening. Western knife fighting has strong roots in fencing and often forgets that most knife fights are fast and furious and happen at very close range.

He also makes the assumption that you will see your opponents knife and have time to draw your own. Trust me, if I have the knife the first thing you'll know about it is when you're bleeding on the floor.

Finally, he relies too much on the damage a knife can cause. yes, nicks and cuts can slow a guy down, blood loss will disorient him and so on, but the time this takes is such that usually it makes little difference during the fight. I have spoken to people in the Philippines that have survived many knife fights and can show you horrendous scars. The fight isn't over until one of you stops moving. There are tragets that can disable an opponent, but never rely on them if the opponent is determined to win.

When it comes down to it the best option is not to get in a fight in the first place, failing that escape as quickly as possible, last option fight, but be sure that you're prepared. Realistic training, a ruthless will to survive and the correct mindset are the things that will help you most. I know it sounds cliched, but the guy who doesn't worry about getting cut or even survivng the fight has the edge in the end.

The weapon has to be part of you, sometimes it is used to attack, sometimes it is a distraction whilst your other hand or feet attack. Never oncentrate or rely on the weapon because you are focusing on something outside of the conflict, the weapon is an inanimate object, a tool, your concentration should be on the opponent, the environment and yourself.

Regards

Neil

Don Roley
18th August 2001, 04:32
I would be interested in seeing these threads on line that you mentioned about the articvle. Can you provide links?

Neil Hawkins
18th August 2001, 05:10
Sorry Dan, the original posts were on an e-mail list and there is no web archive.

Neil

MarkF
18th August 2001, 07:43
Actually, that first stance on the first page looks mighty similar to jigo hontai (Natural right stance), but I just wanted to make an observation concerning comments about cutting, bleeding, adrenaline, etc.
*****

Life is a precious gift and I've seen people in such bad shape that you thing they are going through the motions in the trauma room, but s/he makes it.

In one particular case, a young guy was brought in after being cut from the lower abdomen, ripping up to his chest, and one cut continuing over the shoulder (close to the neck), and down his back. He had over thirty bad wounds and had lost nearly all his blood, but he never lost conciousness, not in the trauma room and not during surgery (local anesthetics only, as he didn't have the blood in his body for survival if he went under), was in the hospital, being switched from room to room (seems as thought the person who started this was intent on finishing it).

But he never lost it. I saw him on rounds every day for about a week, and he was finally allowed to have pain killers.

I took that as a good lesson in the value of living. I've seen single stab wounds brought in DOA, but I've never seen anyone with that much damage from a knife not even lose conciousness.

So my only real comment was on what Neil had said. Life and the will to survive lasts much longer than the natural chemicals normally relied on for survival. He literally had more than one thousand staples, pins/clamps, and sutures holding him together.

If that isn't a comment on situations changing the odds, I don't know what is.

Mark

Don Roley
18th August 2001, 07:58
Neil,
I am curious about the mailing list that this issue was discussed. It may be one I am interested in.

Without really seeing the posts, and only seeing the original article, I would have to guess that a lot of people may be less than impressed if they have the outlook that you can see if you read the following link about knife attacks. Lynn Thompson seems to come from the exact opposite outlook, and I do not believe he has anywhere near the same experience as Animal.

http://www.diac.com/~dgordon/knife.html

This is, of course, only a guess on my part. A lot more people on the internet seem to be oriented towards Thompson's views than Animal's.

Kit LeBlanc
18th August 2001, 15:10
Originally posted by MarkF
Actually, that first stance on the first page looks mighty similar to jigo hontai (Natural right stance), but I just wanted to make an observation concerning comments about cutting, bleeding, adrenaline, etc.
*****

Life is a precious gift and I've seen people in such bad shape that you thing they are going through the motions in the trauma room, but s/he makes it.

In one particular case, a young guy was brought in after being cut from the lower abdomen, ripping up to his chest, and one cut continuing over the shoulder (close to the neck), and down his back. He had over thirty bad wounds and had lost nearly all his blood, but he never lost conciousness, not in the trauma room and not during surgery (local anesthetics only, as he didn't have the blood in his body for survival if he went under), was in the hospital, being switched from room to room (seems as thought the person who started this was intent on finishing it).

But he never lost it. I saw him on rounds every day for about a week, and he was finally allowed to have pain killers.

I took that as a good lesson in the value of living. I've seen single stab wounds brought in DOA, but I've never seen anyone with that much damage from a knife not even lose conciousness.

So my only real comment was on what Neil had said. Life and the will to survive lasts much longer than the natural chemicals normally relied on for survival. He literally had more than one thousand staples, pins/clamps, and sutures holding him together.

If that isn't a comment on situations changing the odds, I don't know what is.

Mark


Very well put. And yet still on E-Budo we are constantly regaled by people who are completely comfortable stating THEIR joint locks crush bone, are inescapable and end fights (naturally, as THEIR art is from the 400 year old battlefield, it is therefore more "combative"). THEIR atemi is just so much more effective because they target those dang kyusho. THEIR secret power (aiki, or kiai, or what have you) just instantly triples the effectiveness of anything they do. The willpower on the part of this filet-o-kid that Mark talks about, or on the people that take multiple .45 rounds and still put up a fight (both more common than you think), naturally doesn't fit into THEIR pre-determined "combative mindset."

These folks need to wake up and smell the coffee, just as Animal says. (Funny, he talks about this stuff and wins fans and gets quoted here at E-budo, I do and I tick people off....).

Kit

Neil Hawkins
19th August 2001, 02:05
Dan

The list involved can be found at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/combatives the members are mostly from the Charles Nelson School or followers of Fairbairns Defendu, some good stuff comes out of it (but there's a lot of crud too). Another one is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cqc this is full of mostly british guys but is along the same lines as Combatives.

I too am an Animal fan and have quoted him many times here. A list that he posts to regularly is the Escrima Digest, he upsets people there as well! I can give a link to that list but send an email to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com with "help" (no quotes) in the body of the message and follow the instructions to subscribe. The list is mostly about Kali, Escrima, Bando and Silat and centres on the use of sticks, but they do get into some good discussions. Fans of the Dog brothers should check it out as they use it a lot as well.

===========================================
Kit

I'm not going to argue with you on this one, but I still believe that locks have a place in controlling an opponent, you just have to use the right ones and not see them as a finisher.

The lock should have the opponent in a position where he is off-balance and should the lock fail to restrain him easy to put down with another technique, at the very least you should be able to break the joint and so render it almost useless as a weapon against you.

But you are right in that many of the locks you see are not correctly applied and are relied on to hold the opponent. These locks will not work effectively.

Regards

Neil

Kit LeBlanc
20th August 2001, 04:04
Originally posted by Neil Hawkins


Kit

I'm not going to argue with you on this one, but I still believe that locks have a place in controlling an opponent, you just have to use the right ones and not see them as a finisher.

The lock should have the opponent in a position where he is off-balance and should the lock fail to restrain him easy to put down with another technique, at the very least you should be able to break the joint and so render it almost useless as a weapon against you.

But you are right in that many of the locks you see are not correctly applied and are relied on to hold the opponent. These locks will not work effectively.

Regards

Neil

????

Not sure I see what you mean by an argument, Neil. Locks certainly do have a place in controlling a combative or resisting subject, I use them all the time in both randori and real world arrest situations. I agree they certainly will not finish a fight (unless your guy really doesn't WANT to fight), particularly with the type of folks that Mark is talking about.

I do think, however, that certain locks, even correctly applied, will not have the effect desired, nor the one "expected" in a lot of kata training. But then we are talking about using the "right ones" for the job, as you already have mentioned. A kote gaeshi or similar technique is not the one I would attempt to use to control a roid raging ex-pro football player who wanted to eat me for breakfast.

Kit

johan smits
20th August 2001, 09:16
Hi to you all,

Something bothers me about defenses against knives. In all of my training, a little over 25 years I almost never encountered a teacher (jujutsu, aikido or judo) who could use a knive. They did handle knives though in an expert way, on the tatami that is.
I really believe that knife defenses from the above mentioned arts leave a lot to be desired.

Many many years ago I was involved in a fight in which someone pulled a knife on me. It was four (them) against one (me) I had already taken two or three hits with a cosh (I looked it up, it's also called lifepreserver!). As soon as this guy drew the knife I withdrew and ran away like hell.
Looking backward the guy was brandishing it like an idiot, so he probably couldn't use it but I didn't take any chance then. Still think it was smart and I tell my students what a smart teacher they have (some of them frown).

Later I learned a basic kata in which the defense against a straight thrust with the knife is a kote gaeshi. The attacker has the knife behind his back. Most of the times you don't notice the knife until it stabs you. I guess that is a main point of fighting with a knife, you don't see it until it is too late. Kata do not always teach us what to do, it teaches us the limitations of techniques.
I really think the best option is to have a weapon of your own at hand although that is difficult for law abiding civilains, on the other hand at least we can run, unlike the professionals who have to do the job.

Power to them.

Best regards,

Johan Smits

Gabe Suarez
24th August 2001, 18:51
Greetings Gentlemen,

I'd like to offer my opinions on the issue of knives, knife defenses, and their application in street combat.

I have approximately 25 years in martial arts (everything from Kyokushin karate to JKD, as well as firearms, and even knives). I also have 15 years as a street police officer. I'm familiar with violence.

You guys make many good points. Nothing is a guarantee. I've seen guys with arms blown off by shotguns live, so even if a hand is sliced off by a tanto or a bowie, its still not a guarantee that he'll drop and die. Does that make the knife useless as a fighting tool? Certainly not. It has its place.

I teach the knife as a tool that is applicable in the same situations you'd use a firearm. Its not a lesser weapon, nor a better weapon. It can go places with youthat other weapons cannot, but that's it. Some applicable places to deploy the knife are when faced with multiple adversaries, when taken to the ground by a stronger fighter, when faced by a stronger fighter while you are in a diminished state. There are others.

I've been in a couple of these things and agree that you will probably not see the knife until the cut comes. More often than not, it will look just like a punch. Distance is good, but often academic because we allow people within our defensive sphere daily...can't avoid it. By the time you realize you need distance, its often too late. If you are able to evade or catch the initial attack, I advocate giving back some damage and then creating distance.

Knife defenses taught in many schools are relatively worthless. Even a teenaged punk gangmember with no formal training will not come in with a five-from-the-sky bottom fist stab so you can execute an upper block and reverse punch him. The knife is quick and requires little power to cut you. A small cut won't kill you, but its not inconsequential either. You don't know where that knife has been. Infection? In the 21st Century? Sure. How about the diminished fighter concept. You take one cut - no big deal. You take two cuts - no big deal. The third, fourth and fifth cuts begin to bug you a little. How about if the first cut takes your ear off? Don't under estimate the blade.

Well, thanks for listening. Its good to be able to discuss this material.


Gabe Suarez
Suarez International, Inc.
http://www.gabesuarez.com

"He teaches my hands to make war, so that my arms can bend a bow of bronze".
2 Samuels 22:35

Kit LeBlanc
24th August 2001, 20:46
Mr. Saurez welcome to the forum!!

If we keep getting heavy hitters posting here, this'll be contending with Bugei as the best CQC forum on the web.

To those of you unfamiliar with Mr. Suarez, please follow the link to his website, he is one of the premier law enforcement/tactical trainers out there today, and as a street cop, he is one of those that has been there, done that!

Kit LeBlanc

Aaron Fields
25th August 2001, 18:06
Just my meager two cents, as a civilian give me a baseball bat over a knife any day. (Yes...I'm sorry I can't pass it up......"baseball has been very very good to me. :laugh: )

Gabe Suarez
26th August 2001, 16:55
Aaron,

No one can argue that the smack of a good Louiville Slugger across the melon is conclusive.
However, I'll bet you can come up with a few places you McGuire Stick can't go. Also, consider that without movement and distance, there's not much you can do with it, as its a momentum weapon (I know all about thrusts, but they need room too).

How 'bout the following places:
1). Telephone Booth
2). Crowded Line in a market, bank, etc.
3). Airline Terminal
4). in church

There's lots a places your McGuire Stick will raise eyebrows and questions. A small 3" blade can go everywhere and not even raise an eyebrow. Also, don't underestimate the power of a little bitty blade.

When I was in Italy on a teaching assignment, we had to leave our Berettas with the host, and venture out only with our spyder-cutters. One of the Chiefs of the Italian police had his eyes opened when we were able to draw, open, and slash a target in half before one of his guys was able to get his Beretta out of his holster.

Sure, I'd rather have had something like the Beretta PM-12 the Carabinieri had, but that was out of the question. There aren't many baseball fields in Rome either. The little blade (a spyder endura), was better than not having anything at all, which was the only other option.

Cheers,

Gabe Suarez
Suarez International, Inc.
http://www.gabesuarez.com

"He teaches my hands to make war, so that my arms can bend a bow of bronze".
2 Samuels 22:35

Aaron Fields
27th August 2001, 03:22
Gabe,


True enough about concealment, but in the same vein there are a number of places that knives can’t go as well. Alas, the Italians have no baseball (try not to hold it against them) and carrying around a bat has some serious disadvantages.

We need not swing like Boone (eat your hearts out all I’m Ichi-gaga) so momentum yes, but a bat does damage over a lot of its surface area. In addition, with a little work some of the sword techniques are adaptable.

Now all that being said both weapons have their merits. Now if I could only find a use for my catcher’s gear I’d be set. Any suggestions?

With the calls I’ve been on the majorities of stabbings go for some time before the person who is stuck quits fighting (3-8 minutes.) Were as in the case of the “slugging” weapons (bats, 2x4, tire irons) the fight ends quickly.

So I’m not arguing which weapon is better, my comment was more in the line of “given the opportunity to use either…”
:smash: heheheh

Neil Hawkins
27th August 2001, 06:27
Welcome Gabe.

Aaron,

To re-iterate my point you should never rely on ANY weapon, they all can fail you when you can least afford it. I've just been reading "Black Hawk Down" by Mark Bowden (excellent read BTW) and there are numerous mentions of the jacketed ammunition the Rangers used in their M16's passing right through the Somali's and not even slowing them down. People would be shot numerous times and still get up.

Anyway, with percussion weapons like sticks and bat's, I have seen people take a terrible battering and still get up. A friend of mine found an intruder in his house, the intruder had a knife so my friend (a very experienced MA instructor) hit the guys forearm as hard as he could with a hardwood stick. The guy didn't even drop the knife, it took a strike to the point of the elbow to disable the arm.

You can't always guarantee your accuracy or the effect it will have on your opponent, so you should always assume that the person will continue to fight. Use whatever you can to create an escape for yourself, or if you have to go until there is no fight left in him. But use your entire arsenal and don't limit yourself to whatever you have in your hand, in your pocket or on your belt.

Regards

Neil

Aaron Fields
27th August 2001, 08:15
Neil,

I agree totally, now more to the question at hand, what do I do with my catcher's gear. Oh wait, your down under...you guys don't even play baseball. Gabe a litttle help?

Joseph Svinth
27th August 2001, 08:31
Aaron --

You can wear your catcher's gear next time Bluming comes to town, as that way he can really whack you.

Meanwhile, if the Louisville Slugger attracts too much attention, then there is much to be said for flashlights. I haven't broken down and bought one of Ken Good's light sabers yet, but will attest that MagLites make decent hammers when nothing else is available for driving a nail. (It never fails to astonish me how many folks carry multiple knives but not even the tiniest flashlight. Yet in so many case it is the dark that scares us, not what's in it.)

Neil Hawkins
27th August 2001, 08:55
Aaron,

I'm with Joe on this one, catchers gear would be interesting body armour, it wouldn't stop a blade or a bullet, it would be uncomfortable under the clothes and fairly obvious, but it would take some impact out of a hit. Have you thought of donating it to the local little league or charity organisation?

As for torches even the big maglites are a bit conspicuous. I always carry a little one, makes for a good yawara stick, striking, attacking pressure points and finding lost keys in the dark what more do you want in a weapon? I have to admit though that I do have a big one in the car at hand in case it is needed.

I often carry a steel pen that actually writes but is a very effective yawara style weapon as well. The added benefit of this is that you can scribble down license plate numbers or descriptions for later recollection. I know you can carve that stuff into something with a knife, but as the thing I most often write on is the back of my hand a pen is much less painful. :)

Neil

Stevo
27th August 2001, 17:09
Neil,

I disagree with a lot of the comments in the article.

Certainly the guy with the weapon has an advantage, but it's no bed of roses for the attacker, either! Personally I think a trained defender has a thirty percent chance of success.

You've seen the knife and stick gradings for Shodan / Nidan in Tsutsmi Ryu? Knife against unarmed, stick against unarmed, knife against knife, stick against stick. Uke and Tori being graded simultaneously for the quality of the attack as well as the defence. Notice that there's no grading for knife against stick?

In my opinion the tanbo is a better weapon. A knife usually has to hit a major organ to create enough shock to take an attacker down. These aren't easy targets. A good defender will pressure you by closing them down, and then briefly opening just the one that he's prepared a counter for!

A tanbo on the other hand (ha ha) will smash anything it comes into contact with. It has a longer reach, and can also be used for locking and throwing techniques.

Hmmm... tanto vs tanbo?? might be better as a whole new thread!

Kolschey
27th August 2001, 20:22
Originally posted by Stevo


Certainly the guy with the weapon has an advantage, but it's no bed of roses for the attacker, either! Personally I think a trained defender has a thirty percent chance of success.



Those still aren't odds I like. When the weapon against you is a knife, the cost of that 70 percent is pretty darned high, particularly given that in fighting your attacker, you may elicit a lethal response simply through their own fear and anger. This is certainly not to say that one should not act to the utmost of one's abilities, but rather that if you do not effectively incapacitate the attacker very quickly, I would suspect that your odds of survival may diminish rapidly. It may not be a bed of roses for the attacker, but on the other hand, he will be less likely to be sleeping under them after the fight.

KenpoKev
27th August 2001, 21:02
Goju Shorei Weapons:

Pocket Folder and Cane

Go anywhere with them.

www.gojushorei.com

Just a thought

Winners drip, losers gush.

Neil Hawkins
27th August 2001, 23:25
Steve

I agree to a certain extent, however, in the grading you know that the knife cannot actually kill you (it does hurt!) so mentally you are prepared to take a chance that on the street you normally wouldn't. I also think that a really good knife fighter will be harder to take down, when was the last time you saw offensive knife tactics in class? You watch what most of the guys do and compare it to a good Philippino knife fighter and there is no comparison.

That said it is a good exercise because it shows you how hard it is to defend against a determined attacker. As for knife against stick, I agree that if both people were of equal skill the stick has the advantage. We do this in the Arnis I teach and if the knife fighter is more skilled than the stick fighter he will win every time.

I suppose regardless of weapon, the more skilled fighter always has an advantage. That's why we train so hard!



Kevin,

The cane is an excellent weapon, if my knees get worse I'll definitely carry one. The problem is that if you end up in court after hitting someone with a cane and you do not have an injury (certified by a doctor) that requires it's use, it's a weapon and there may be consequences. But hey there's always that risk regardless of what you carry.

Neil

Gabe Suarez
29th August 2001, 16:43
You know, we can get into an entire other thread on the knife vs. stick thing. This could turn out worse than the 9mm vs. 45 thing in the shooting community, giving rise to all manner of questionably researched articles, terminal tests against cattle, and finally even composite weapons with the attributes of both and the liabilities of neither. Perhaps a folding Assegai??

Actually, I caution judging against, or for, a weapon based on the training set of any particular system. I also caution against underestimating the knife...something of which far too many classical martial artists are guilty of. Many of the knife defenses I see taught out there absolutely will not work against the avergae street-terrorist bent on using you as a benihana practice target! Our evil counterparts do not attack like the stuff I see. A real fight is NOT like an ancient duel, its an ambush. Unarmed guy against a bladesman is in a bad situation. Stickman versus knifeman is better off, if the stick is measurably longer than the blade. If the blade is the same length, stickman is in bad place as well.

Each weapon has its place. As far as the stick vs knife - it really depends on the man and not generally on the tool or system. Also, what sort of stick and what sort of knife are we taliking about. Is it a swiss army knive versus a Jo? Or is it a Cold Steel Trailmaster versus a kubotan?
And also, is the bladesman actually trying to cut your fingers and hands off, or is he trying to help you work through a "whatever against the knife" drill in the dojo?

Also, remember that the legalities, as silly as they may be, must be a part of the picture. You can carry a Spyderco Endura just about anywhere in the world. Not the same with a collapsible ASP or Tanbo. The cane? Sure, why not. But if you are a strapping guy who can bench press 300 pounds and carry a cane you don't need in order to walk, you'll get strange looks...when you use it, you'll get strange looks from the jury as well. Having to press a "tool" like the spyder-cutter into service may not have the same effect. I said MAY. As I say in my combatives courses, "There's no guarantees."

If we are going to carry a big weapons (ie. a tanto or a tanbo),and you don't have the physical need for a cane, the knife takes top billing. Why? Because the knife can do everything that the equally sized stick can do, plus a whole lot more.

The stick can strike flesh and break bones - so can the all steel knife. Don't want to cut? Use the flat or the ridge. Can the stick cut or perforate? No. All being equal, the knife has versatiliy that out-distances the stick.

Unarmed against the knife? It can be done, but not like many martial artists think. Unarmed against the blade has absolutely nothing to do with blocking the knife, nor using some wrist lock. It involves diminishing the bladesman's ability to fight by using things in the environment against him: ground, cover and obstacles placed (or thrown) in his way, improvisation of anything as a weapon, hot coffee in his face, etc.).

I'll bet that if we take a muscular criminal warrior whose cut a few people, and put him
against the average black belt (who think he knows about knife defenses), the poor black belt would look like he got dragged through ten miles of razor wire and the criminal would still have his knife.

Now, all that said, imagine that you are about to go to the corner 7-11 to get a carton of milk. What will you take with you? The Tanbo, the 12" Tanto, or the small spyder cutter. Your pick...your realistic everyday pick...should dictate what and how you'll spend your time training. Just my .02 gents. No offense meant to anyone.

Gabe Suarez
Suarez International, Inc.
http://www.gabesuarez.com

"He teaches my hands to make war, so that my arms can bend a bow of bronze".
2 Samuels 22:35

Scott
30th August 2001, 00:45
When topics of defense arise we often tend to make the mistake of thinking of the altercation in terms of a duel. A circumstance where both parties are aware that an altercation is about to take place and both are prepared physically and emotionally for battle. The fact is, in real life, the experienced bad guy (criminal) will use every scheme in his arsenal to prevail. This means his initial attack will have a high probability of being a surprise attack. The experienced aggressor will leave the area to lie in wait in a parking lot or in the bushes outside your house to ensure his attack will be a surprise.

This means that you will probably be sliced 3-10 times before you even have an opportunity to respond defensively. If the assailant intends to kill, you will be well on your way dead before you even know you have been hurt. In most cases your chances of survival will be based upon luck and the experience and intent of your attacker, not on your skill.

I have known quite a number of individuals who have been stabbed, slashed clubbed and stomped. (Ten years in Corrections.) I have learned a couple of things. One, attacks occur most of the time as a surprise. Two, the human body can take much more abuse than most people believe. And three, an individual’s chances of survival are based upon luck and their personal strength of will.

Sincerely,

Scott R. Brown

Gabe Suarez
31st August 2001, 07:42
Scott,

You wrote: "I have learned a couple of things. One, attacks occur most of the time as a surprise. Two, the human body can take much more abuse than most people believe. And three, an individual’s
chances of survival are based upon luck and their personal strength of will."

I agree with your take on the surprise attack thing. So many sport-oriented martial arts train for a martial duel, so that they are never prepared for the guy who doesn't square off and bow, but sneaks up behind 'em with a beer bottle to the melon.

The only thing we can do with this is to develop our awareness. If we see the threat (or think we see it ;)) we can take steps. If we don't see it, all the cool techniques and stripes on the belt will be worthless.

As far as the amount of damage a body can take, I've seen lots in this regard. Specially the criminal warrior who has lived with violence his entire life. You have to acknowledge these guys even if you don't like them or their philosophy. Sometimes they are tougher than the good guys. I know some hard core gang members that I'd rather have on my side in a war than some of the police officers I've worked with.

The last point is not completely on, as far as what I have seen. The strength of will is important as many people simply give up. They never realize the other guy is about to do the same but you beat him to it. Again, this is mind set. Few want to train what's needed to really get the mind right. Training the mind is painful sometimes.

The issue of luck is where I take some disagreement.

Sure, if you face ten opponents attacking you by surprise, you're going to have a hard time. But I think that mental preparation, awareness, willingness to do violence, and keeping your methods simple and thoroughly ingrained will help you get out of a bad spot. If you are in that bad spot against a man with a knife, it will be more difficult (and maybe even painful), but its not over til its over.

I've won (meaning the other guy was flat at the end) a handful of events involving adversaries with knives, but none of them was the classic dojo-type situation. In two I was really fortunate that the other guy was a fool (more foolish than I was:)), and in the others, the man was dropped before he could get the blade into action.

In all, the factors that made the diff were - willingness and eagerness to go to extreme violence on my part, cold deliberation (not waiting for him), aggresively moving first, and perhaps most of all God's grace.

Thanks,

Gabe Suarez
Suarez International, Inc.
http://www.gabesuarez.com

"He teaches my hands to make war, so that my arms can bend a bow of bronze".

2 Samuels 22:35

Scott
31st August 2001, 09:51
Gabe,

I appreciate your perspective. Please allow me to explain my reasons for believing that luck has a role in the outcome of a confrontation. Both circumstances involved people I knew at the time. I was not present at either of the events, but the circumstances of each were officially documented.

The first event occurred when I was in high school. I knew a kid who was widely regarded as someone not to mess with. He was not a friend of mine, but I knew who he was. On one particular evening he and some of his friends went to another town to go to a party. They were basically crashing the party. One of the local boys confronted him in the front yard of house where the party was located. Both of them were posturing, facing off chest-to-chest acting tough. The boy from my school pulled a straight razor out of his pocket and slit the throat of the other boy killing him.

The second event occurred about 2-3 years ago at the prison at which I was employed. One evening an officer was standing on the exercise yard supervising the evening medicine line. An inmate came up behind him and slit his throat with a razor blade. The blade missed the officer’s carotid artery by 1/8 of an inch. The officer survived the assault and has only suffered some slight nerve damage.

Two events, the same form of attack, both attacks surprises. Neither individual had any time to react to defend themselves. One lived the other died. Luck? An act of God? In my book they are the same thing. Sometimes it is luck, the roll of the dice, which allows an individual to survive.

I will end with more humorous event. Some years ago a man in Reno or Las Vegas, I cannot remember which, got drunk and fell off a seven story parking structure landing on his face. The only injury he suffered was a broken tooth. Tell me that was not luck!!!

Sincerely,

Scott R. Brown

Neil Hawkins
1st September 2001, 10:33
G'Day Scott

You are right when you say that the attack is most lkely to be a surprise, however if your zanshin is good you should still have time to react. In both of the cases you mentioned both of the victims failed to take even the most basic precaution of situational awareness.

The kid at the party should never have gotten into a chest-to-chest posturing display, he should have either finished it fast or kept distance. The prison officer shouldn't have been in a position where an inmate could approach him from behind. Both cases showed a lack of awarness about what was going on and poor training. You may find that the guard who survived did so because in some recess of the brain he went into survival mode and moved to protect the arteries of the throat. Or it could have been a poor attack.

You can't teach luck, you can't practice it, so to me it doesn't deserve a place in the training hall or on the street. Rely on yourself and your training, first and foremost, if you are religious, believe that your god will show him(her)self through your skill and not as some magic hand that will plcuk you from the fire.

I know that this is easy to say here and now, sitting in front of a computer, and you can't always get it right. Awareness is something you have to train, and then have all the time. You need to concentrate, be aware of the surroundings, be aware of your attacker and so on. I see it all the time, especially with armed security guards that I teach weapon retention to. They are so intent on their weapon that they are easy to take down. But that is a whole different topic of conversation.

Again, it is hard, probably the hardest thing to master, but if you don't become aware your survival will be shortlived. Especially if you are in an occupation that is hazardous.

Sorry, I kinda got a bit carried away there, but I hope you see my point.

The drills that Steve and I spoke about are a tiny fraction of the training, we probably devote 90% of the time to reflex training, and still the 'duel' style drill is very hard on the defender. Often the reflex is easier because it is pure action, there are no thoughts clouding your mind. In the exercercise mentioned you tend to try and anticipate what each other are going to do. To me the biggest lesson to be learnt from the exercise is to relax, stop thinking and either attack or defend smoothly, without thinking about what is going on.

Regards

Neil

INFINOO
1st September 2001, 16:01
From my experience it takes a knife fighter to beat one. Its that simple. The question than is how do I become a knife fighter. That means going out and seeking instruction in blade craft. Check out www.bladeforum.com there is plenty of info to start your quest. Maby start off with vidio's to see whats out there. You may be surprised. From there find knife trainer's in your area. If there are mone than its means your going to have to travel.It may not be easy or cheap or politically correct. Being a knife fighter is more than carrying steel 24-7 . Its a disipline that transends the rest of your life. Once your path choosing there will be no turning back. Keep your eye on the big picture. I refuse to live in fear of any man. I choose not to be a victom on any level.
Gregory Rogalsky
Director Of Rogalsky Combatives International

Dan Harden
1st September 2001, 16:17
Luck and training go hand in hand. It’s similar to the work ethic
"The harder I work, the luckier I get."
"The harder you train the luckier you may get"
Hey- the harder you train you may get so lucky you never need your training.

I wouldn't dismiss "luck" (perhaps fate) out of hand as an element in the survival rate in encounters. Would I take training over luck? uhh yuh.
BUt what type fo training?
My youth was misspent and embarrassing but lets just say I unfortunately got to know bad people who taught each other how to to size up, approach, distract, then shock, gain control mentally and physically and to do bad things to John and Jane Q public. It's sickening to think of, but its there. It wasn't till years later that I could put it together and realize it was a type of training. It's incredible to see how much people take for granted and how open they are; both in their homes and without.

A “good” cop is trained/ learned in his or her own way to do much the same thing (minus the bad stuff).
I have been in situations that should have cost me my life, others where I should not have walked away whole -but I did. Luck or training- a little of both? I was to young and stupid- so I say God was being VERY patient with me- and saw me through to today. You may call it luck. in several of the examples in the earlier posts I say those peple were lucky.

To pre-suppose or count on a technical approach- nope. To count on luck? Nope.
In either case it has always brought a different approach to my training. So much so, that it has made it difficult to watch allot of martial artist do their thang.

Training for knives in the one-on-one duel scenario that most think about is a very dangerous fantasy. Most nasty people are cowards, and their weakness is pride/confidence. They will play and respond to your input to a crowd’s presence. They may also have an accomplice. In a criminal encounter they will want to be safe and get out fast they will count on surprise- not a stand off at the OK corral toe to toe-and they may have an accomplice as well. Taking control of that situation- facing down a knife- is not to be fantasized about.
Facing otherwise normal but currently crazed and stressed people is a mental game more than a physical, technical one.

Giving them options, and fashioning it to illicit a response either way is the first step in control and de-escalating the encounter. Facing a friend with a knife in his hand who has "lost it" teaches you a little about that as well. All of that is the inverse to controling them when you wish to be the aggressor.

All in all I will take induced stress mental training, and focused instantaneous aggression over umpteen years of "technique junkie" "ooh look at this or that lock" training. Having a repertoire of martial art thingy's you think you can whip on people is not where it’s at.
Nothings perfect, lets face it; there is no way to "simulate combat " in a dojo so "Ya dos what yer can" to learn the all important ways to approach, distract, seize, and dominate an encounter. There are many ways to try to accomplish that in a dojo but most people will leave. It has been my experience that most people just want, or (in all honesty) have a need, to "think" they are capable and that is enough. Truly getting there is not so palatable. Others don't want to go there and its not the reason they enter Dojo's anyway

Understanding physical encounters and stress is a venue cops know better then most people. For martial artist who want to know or understand this stuff they are a far better bet than most "Dojos." Getting a good combination is rare.
Military types are all together different, whole different mission and goals.

Dan

Kit LeBlanc
1st September 2001, 16:36
Originally posted by Neil Hawkins
G'Day Scott

You are right when you say that the attack is most lkely to be a surprise, however if your zanshin is good you should still have time to react. In both of the cases you mentioned both of the victims failed to take even the most basic precaution of situational awareness.

The kid at the party should never have gotten into a chest-to-chest posturing display, he should have either finished it fast or kept distance. The prison officer shouldn't have been in a position where an inmate could approach him from behind. Both cases showed a lack of awarness about what was going on and poor training. You may find that the guard who survived did so because in some recess of the brain he went into survival mode and moved to protect the arteries of the throat. Or it could have been a poor attack.

You can't teach luck, you can't practice it, so to me it doesn't deserve a place in the training hall or on the street. Rely on yourself and your training, first and foremost, if you are religious, believe that your god will show him(her)self through your skill and not as some magic hand that will plcuk you from the fire.

I know that this is easy to say here and now, sitting in front of a computer, and you can't always get it right. Awareness is something you have to train, and then have all the time. You need to concentrate, be aware of the surroundings, be aware of your attacker and so on. I see it all the time, especially with armed security guards that I teach weapon retention to. They are so intent on their weapon that they are easy to take down. But that is a whole different topic of conversation.

Again, it is hard, probably the hardest thing to master, but if you don't become aware your survival will be shortlived. Especially if you are in an occupation that is hazardous.

Sorry, I kinda got a bit carried away there, but I hope you see my point.

The drills that Steve and I spoke about are a tiny fraction of the training, we probably devote 90% of the time to reflex training, and still the 'duel' style drill is very hard on the defender. Often the reflex is easier because it is pure action, there are no thoughts clouding your mind. In the exercercise mentioned you tend to try and anticipate what each other are going to do. To me the biggest lesson to be learnt from the exercise is to relax, stop thinking and either attack or defend smoothly, without thinking about what is going on.

Regards

Neil

Neil,

Your points about zanshin and training are all well made but smack somewhat of the controlled dojo environment.

You are kidding yourself if you do not think there will be "holes" in your zanshin in the real world. Second guessing that prison guard and saying that he must have not been aware of what was going on, and had poor training is VERY easy from the computer keyboard. Was there a lapse, maybe, was he surprised, certainly. You WILL be surprised sometimes, and it is physically and mentally impossible to be 100% "on" with all encompassing zanshin 100% of the time. If you honestly believe that your training is 100% inoculation against that, you are in for a very big and very nasty surprise.

A koryu friend of mine recently related a story to me about an armed Israeli security officer and koryu martial artist who once caught himself in a bad position. It was a completely innocuous situation, but in a time a place like a war torn city in Israel. He did catch himself and realized he was in a position of momentary total defenselessness though he was very well armed and had the weapons on his person. This is a man trained in budo and honed in one of those places on the planet where violence is swift, sudden, often completely by surprise, and frequent, yet still there was a lapse. That he caught himself is a mark of his training far more than thinking that you can train to be 100% surprise proof, but still had he suddenly been assaulted he would have had to rely on instinct far more than training....but that is part of what training is about, isn't it.

Training allows you to hopefully control situations so that luck is not a major factor, but it is also there to allow you to capitalize on lucky breaks.

Dan,

Keep 'em coming, excellent points. Where are you in Mass?

Kit

Scott
1st September 2001, 18:49
Neil,

G'Day to you as well.

In regards to your zanshin comment, I think the key words are "if your zanshin is good you ‘should’ still have time to react". I cannot say I know anyone who is able to keep their zanshin optimized all the time. In the prison environment inmates have the opportunity to watch the officers 24/7. All they have to do is await your "suki" or distract you in some manner and your goose is cooked. Anyone can be had, eventually.

I agree, proper mental and physical training is imperative, however, I believe some people have way too much confidence in their training. Over confidence can be more harmful in some circumstances than lack of awareness as in the case of the two teenagers facing off.

Anyone would be foolish to depend on luck in a physical environment. It is either there or it is not and as far as I know, luck cannot be cultivated. Physical attacks are fast and furious, if you are caught off guard you do what you can and hope for the best. I agree training to respond spontaneously and instantly is imperative, but I ask you, “How many of you drink alcohol?” Talk about interfering with your zanshin. Now add the crowd and noise of a bar where most people drink and tell me your zanshin is constantly present. I personally do not drink. I have had small amounts over my life time, but I have never been drunk and if I am in public I never drink alcohol even for the social camaraderie. Since my teenage years I have always preferred not to be mentally impaired.

In the prison environment an officer is working with the experienced predators in society. Each prison facility has its own personality. There are unwritten rules followed by staff and inmates and those rules differ from prison to prison. In general, the harder the prison the less staff/inmate contact there is, both physically and verbally. An inmate seen conversing with an officer in a hard prison is asking to get stuck by his peers. It is just not done. In a lower level prison and in medical and psychiatric facilities there is much more inmate/officer interaction and consequently the risk can be higher. Low level (read less dangerous) inmates are handled differently than high level inmates. An officer would never turn their back on a high level inmate, nor would he be in the presence of one without backup and the inmate being in handcuffs. I have been alone on the exercise yard for 8 hours with 2000 level three inmates. In California levels run from 1-low to 4-high. It takes a careful balance of confidence and social skills to be able to gain the respect and consequently the compliance of inmates to your authority. Sometimes that means walking into a group of inmates. Inmates are predators and as such behave like predators. If you show any fear or trepidation they will perceive you as prey and treat you accordingly. A good officer will be able to read an inmate’s body language to determine how to handle the inmate. Sometimes you interpose your authority; sometimes you use reason, sometimes a careful balance of both. It is a delicate psychological dance. It is unrealistic to think that zanshin can be present 100% of the time under these circumstances. A street cop has intervals of his day where he is in a physically dangerous circumstance, for a Correctional Officer it is 8-16 hours everyday.

Sincerely,

Scott R. Brown

Dan Harden
3rd September 2001, 05:42
Kit

I am in central Mass.
I have a closed door policy at my Dojo. I am uninterested in the public at large and accept students by refferal only. I am not accepting any more students at this time. I only teach as a means to train and I am taking my current students along a path.....

Scot
Good points on Zanshin.
Why we have to use Japanese names for such mundane phrases as shoulder-grab and one-hand-lapel-grabs is beyond me. Using indigenous names for "unique" cultural phrases and idealogy is one thing- But HEY! The Japs think everything they do is unique :) I sure as hell am not impressed anymore.

I'll call it situational awareness-I'm an American.


As far as Cops and Jail house guards go- I'll leave that up to you pros. I have taught both. Personal experiences have taught me that cops were more aware and able on more than a few levels. In all cases guards or cops- their hand to hand stunk- their whole thought process reminded me more of a football squirmish on an unwilling quarterback than any sort of art. What we do is not not relavant to allot of what they do. Hey- if I had to deal with meat heads all day and still be sure to make it home for supper and story time with the kids- I'd be looking for a football team to back me up too. Heck, My p226's have 21 round "Oklahoma state troopers" clips with alternating glazers and FMJ in e'm (my own personal football team)
Anyyyyway...The two SWAT guys I trained with were fairly interesting. They and I found some interesting coralleries to Koryu principles and modern tactics; one case in point being multiple target koryu sword principles and the way they train for room sweeps.
For several reasons I will take cops over most military personel and Guards I have met. Perhaps it is their irregular response to such a wide variety of people and the idea that they NEVER know who, or what, they are walking into; VS a guard seeing the same types over and over, and the military trip being so specialized.....
I don't know....it's over my head - you guys yak it up.

Maybe it's that I see their verbal de-escalation skills, inherent maai and situational control tactics are more in keeping with what most (gag!) martial artist should be doing but aren't.

Now theres a whole new thread of discussions.

"The difference between mission parameters- Cop, guard, military, and civilian."
And then you can start a lively discussion of Koryu VS gendai approaches to same. Old world and modern.

Betcha that will go no where slow.............most people can't think their way "outa-a- #$%$$# paper sack," no matter how much you show em- much less how to improvise "old school" tactics to new mission environments...
Gendai or Koryu; how many people would look at ya stary eyed like deer in a headlight while you were manauvering them-
saying....
"Sensei said this or that." And
"My art was combat effective in the 1500's."

"Yuh! ughh huh."
Dan

Neil Hawkins
3rd September 2001, 10:59
Dan,

That's why we used to do the TDG's (Tactical Decision Games) here and why they faded away. No one wanted to think their way through a problem, or come up with creative solutions to tactical situations.

I agree totally that de-escalation techniques are by far the best solution to many situations, and sadly training in that area is lacking greatly. I've found that a heightened awareness is very useful in this because you can see problems early, before they become a physical threat and take action to defuse the situation quietly.

Scott,

I accept that it is very hard to keep your awareness up at all times, but in life threatening situations you learn pretty quick. Like you I do not drink unless I feel very safe and am amongst close friends. I rarely visit clubs or bars, if I do, I'm the one standing in a corner watching the room! But there are times that you can feel relaxed and let your guard down.

I've lost it now, but when I was in the army on recon patrols we would be absolutely alert 24/7, even when sleeping you awoke at the slightest noise or movement. It becomes unconcious, you are not looking over your shoulder, but you still know what is there.

Now I know that working 8 - 16 hours can dull the senses at the best of times, but you can't rely on other people to watch your back so you must do what you can to improve your awareness.

One training exercise that we used to do was defenses whilst blind-folded. Initially you take it easy grabbing attacks done slowly, but you would be surprised how quickly you can get to feel where people are, how close they are, and what their intentions are. I'm not saying you can defend against a full blown punch, though some say you can get to that stage, but you can feel an approach and start to turn into it within a relatively short period.

I would also say that in a hostile environment standing still for to long is dangerous. I would be moving slightly all the time, rather than turning the head to look at something turn the body. You don't have to move much to greatly increase your field of view and make an approach much more difficult. But I haven't worked in a prison environment, so I'll defer to your experience.

I was intrigued by your comments on the exercise yard. Was it because of cut-backs or staff shortages or is that an SOP? What is the point of having a single guard in an exercise yard with that many prisoners? What action would or could you take if a problem arose?

Regards

Neil

Scott
3rd September 2001, 12:30
Neil and Dan,

Thank you for both your comments.

I do not think most people understand the conditions under which Correctional Officers work. Certainly it is desirable to develop a constant awareness. Quite frankly the Officer in question’s duties at the time required him to be focusing on the medication line and not the activity on the yard. Ideally he would have had a partner and Tower Officer to cover his back. All it takes is something else to distract the Tower Officer (who has greater duties than just standing around in his tower) and some other duty to draw his partner away from the line. Corrections suffer from staffing problems like any other government organization. Regardless, it requires less than a second to get slashed.

As I previously posted, inmates have all the time in the world to sit and wait for the suki to occur. All it takes is a moment to accomplish their task. I submit that everyone on this BB would have gotten slashed if the inmate had decided that is what he would accomplish. An inmate is not on a time schedule. He will wait until he sees you are unaware and unprotected, and believe me it will happen. I think it is unrealistic to pontificate about what should have been done from a purely academic perspective when one lacks experience in the environment we are discussing. I do not mean this as angry criticism because I appreciate everyone’s’ comments and input, I do think it is important to understand the complete circumstances and to be realistic about human limitations. I understand it is time consuming and difficult to communicate completely any circumstance on a BB. I may not be comprehensively explaining the situation. That is why I am attempting to be clear that I am not being critical for the purpose of criticism, but for the purpose of edification. I have supervised many many medication lines in my time and one cannot perform this duty while concentrating on the yard. Many officers develop a sense of what is going on in the immediate space around them. It is nearly impossible to maintain all day, day in and day out, even for those who are actively developing this skill. It is important to remember that historically it was only the very exceptional M.A. that was able to maintain his zanshin at all times. Clearly it is a state of mind that can be developed and trained, however it is probably unrealistic to expect even the most devoted modern M.A. to accomplish this ability much less a regular citizen.

I think it is also important to remember the context in which I originally wrote about this Officer, which was to illustrate that “sometimes” it is “luck” that allows one to survive a physical assault and not skill. He did not survive because he had zanshin. He survived because he was lucky the inmate did not cut 1/8 of an inch deeper. You could say, “Maybe he survived because he pulled his head back at the right moment creating the necessary distance” and I say, “Maybe so, ‘lucky’ for him he saw the guy coming in time, “lucky” for him the inmate did not have an accomplice, ‘lucky’ for him the guy was shorter than him”, etc. Also, the inmate was lucky he did not get shot.

It is accurate to say that luck is the confluence of training and opportunity etc. and other such aphoristic sayings, however sometimes, in life, “luck” or an “act of God” is what it takes to survive and sometimes it is “bad luck” or an “act of god” that causes one to die as well.

Sincerely,

Scott R. Brown

Scott
3rd September 2001, 14:15
Neil,

I apologize. While performing my own pontification I neglected to answer your last questions.

It should be unusual to have one officer on the yard with 2000 inmates, the reasons for this circumstance range from too much work and not enough staff to pure laziness on the part of one’s co-workers. I had a co-worker that played dominoes with the inmate recreation worker all day. There is a tower officer over looking the yard, but his duties are multitudinous. He monitors and supervises inmate telephone calls and is responsible for what is occurring out the backside of his tower as well, not to mention attempting to keep an eye on from one to 4 yard officers who are constantly moving and keeping an eye out for any other staff entering the yard. California Corrections Officers are the most highly trained Corrections Officers in the U.S. and possibly the world. We also have a very strong union. That makes it difficult to get fired which means irresponsible officers will not perform their duties comprehensively if their supervisors do not require it. Normally, it is another officer that will get you hurt because of their ego-centered behavior.

I was an exceptional officer, not the only one at my prison I might add. You would be surprised how many excellent corrections officers there are. It takes a delicate balance of balls, social skills, intelligence and experience to handle a yard with 2000 inmates.

The first thing one does when working on a particular yard for the first time is to walk around and observe. You are attempting to get a feel for the personality of the yard. What cliques (read gangs) are predominant on the yard. Where does each clique generally hang out and what is their pattern of activity. Do they play dominoes, chess, cards, Dungeons and Dragons, basketball etc. You learn this because variances in behavior usually mean something is up.

Once you get the feel of the yard and the inmates have had a chance to observe you and your patterns and behavior, you begin to interact on a superficial level with individuals and groups. (Remember at some prisons none of this would occur. It depends on the prison and the level of inmate at the prison. An officer can do this at the prison where I worked.) You are basically establishing a rapport, letting the inmates know how they can expect to be treated by you. Face is very important to inmates. You never embarrass an inmate in front of other inmates. Orders and instructions are often responded to willingly if they are suggested to the inmate or group rather than given as an order. It allows the inmate to voluntarily comply and allows him to maintain his dignity.

Many common citizens and correctional staff believe inmates should not be treated with respect. These people are dangerous in the prison environment and will get themselves or their co-workers injured. As a professional it is not the Corrections Officer’s job to punish, only to supervise. It is impractical to be rude or antagonistic to inmates, you may as well slit your own throat. By treating inmates with dignity and respect you gain their respect and they are more likely to comply with your orders. This becomes crucial in a crisis because inmates tend to comply with those they feel they can trust. Inmates want to keep the officers they can depend on to be fair, consistent and impartial. They are then protected from other inmate’s predations, their property and mail is secure and they are protected from unreasonable staff. They will tend to comply for you because of who you are as a person not for you as a Corrections Officer. After all, most inmates just want to do their time and go home just like the officers.

After you have established a rapport with the inmates you begin to take an active interest in their activities. You might spend 30 minutes chatting with a particular inmate or group of inmates, asking them about whatever is of interest to them. You are demonstrating a concern for them as a group and as individuals. Again inmates are more likely to comply when they have an established relationship with the officer. Often you will cultivate a relationship that will provide you with information that can be used to head off a developing problem on the yard. One time I spent most of a shift standing in the rain watching Asian inmates play Chinese chess. (A most interesting game, better then western chess.) No other inmates (or staff) were crazy enough to be out in the rain all day. What it accomplished was to establish a relationship and demonstrate that I was interested enough in what interested them to stand in the rain in order to learn it.

Once the inmates on the yard know they can trust you, that you respect them and will be fair with them they will generally come to you to solve their internal disputes. On the occasions when they do not do so the situation is probably beyond informal intervention. Disputes between inmates are generally caused by debts not being paid or out right disrespect of some sort. If an inmate allows another to go unpunished for disrespect he is marking himself for predation. The consequences of not standing up for himself are greater than the discomfort and inconvenience of going to lock up. Almost all staff and inmates that are attacked by other inmates have done something to help create the problem in the first place. Some attacks on staff are an inmate’s attempt to get off the yard before he gets attacked by other inmates. This is commonly because of outstanding debts that cannot be repaid. Other staff attacks are caused by mentally deranged inmates.

In answer to your question about how I would handle a problem on the yard when I am alone, let me say it depends on the circumstance. There are a number of established protocols. First and primary is to notify the tower officer of a problem. He will then pick up his Mini-14 and bull horn and order the inmates to the ground. If they do not comply he will rack a round if necessary and that is usually all it takes because that means that anyone left standing is considered a threat to the safety and security of the institution and risks getting shot. Your radio call to the tower will be heard on all the radios in your vicinity and you will instantaneously receive at least 20 other officers as backup. Inmates that do not comply with the tower officer’s order to go to ground will be pepper sprayed then slammed to the ground.

If a large scale problem is about to arise on the yard it is obvious to the alert officer, the entire atmosphere of the yard changes. Inmates begin to congregate in overly large groups. Maybe large numbers of inmate move in doors because they do not want to be involved etc. Usually, a number of inmates have or will notify officers they trust what the problem is. If the situation looks volatile the yard will be closed and all inmates will return to their cells. The inmate shot callers and informants will be called to the Sergeant’s office individually for interviews. Even high rollers do not want their program messed with and will frequently give up information. Often as long as an inmate trusts the officer will not reveal where the information came from he will give up as much information as he knows. We will frequently bring in large numbers of inmates individually to cover up who it was that actually provided the information.

If an officer finds himself in the middle of a fracas on a yard, the best thing to do is get to the foot of the tower. That is where the Tower Officer can protect you most efficiently. Most inmates will not attack an officer unless they are compelled to do so by some outside force.

Being a good Corrections Officer is much more complicated than most people believe because of the image portrayed in the movies. It takes maturity, awareness, intelligence and social skills. I was able to gain the respect of inmates and staff at the same time which is very difficult. I have never worked in an area where the inmates did not want me to stay. Many inmates wanted to know why I was even a Corrections Officer.

As an aside, many of the movie stereo-types do exist, but they are becoming fewer and far between.

I hope you found some of this rather long post informative.

Sincerely, Scott R. Brown

Kit LeBlanc
3rd September 2001, 14:29
Originally posted by Dan Harden
Kit

I am in central Mass.
I have a closed door policy at my Dojo. I am uninterested in the public at large and accept students by refferal only. I am not accepting any more students at this time. I only teach as a means to train and I am taking my current students along a path.....


Dan

Okay...... since I live in Oregon becoming a student is not really what I had in mind. I meant maybe a drop by and visit sometime. I go back East to Connecticut every so often. But I understand if the dojo is closed.

Neil,

Sorry but I must say that I keep hearing the "dojo" talking with your posts. Scott is providing examples where life is actually on the line, not training drills. BIG difference.

NO ONE, repeat NO ONE can have complete, all encompassing zanshin 24 hrs a day. That sounds more like hypervigilance than zanshin, and hypervigiliance is a BAD thing. Coupled with the fact that Scott and Dan are talking about situations where you may be dealing with multiple mouth-breathers, each of whom may act independantly OR in concert to set you up, it is IMPOSSIBLE for one man to be 100% aware of what more than one other man is doing. Forgetting even the environmental factors that will play into this.

The "always keep my back to the wall so I can see what's going on" line is classic cliche. Lots of martial artists do that since it seems they found out cops do it. It's good policy, and I do it whenever possible, on calls or off duty. In real life sometimes you can't though, your mission or call (or job!) requires something different or erupts into something that good tactics cannot always get you out of.

I personally think our martial arts training is for THOSE times, when good tactics fail, and the mark of high skill is in recovering from the inevitable lapses that happen in the real world.

We should all take a lesson through de-breifing the situation in which the guard got his throat slashed. Maybe he did make some mistakes and we can learn from that in order to improve our own chances. Awareness should be the first principle of any self-defense/combatives training.

But I think it is hubris, however, to state woulda-coulda-shoulda's when you are not familiar with his environment or his abilities or with the details of the situation. I think that any tendency to say "that would not have happened to me, my zanshin would have saved me" is more the "ostrich principle" than it is a tactical principle, and that get's people hurt or killed far more often than tactical lapses.

When I finish a call or an op I mentally go over in my head the mistakes I made...when the other guy could have had me. I am disappointed when, going back over it, I can't find some mistake or other. When I do, it means I am learning and improving tactically. When I can't, it doesn't mean I performed perfectly tactically and with zanshin the entire time. It means I am unaware enough to not realize what mistakes I made.

BTW, RE: TDG

Mark Brecht always came up with very interesting solutions, some of which I wish I could use on the job (Ex-lax and all....) Very tactical. Maybe a little too "extra-legal."

Kit

Dan Harden
3rd September 2001, 16:01
Kit
I like your practical and pragmatic views on violent encounters.

I can't help it but all this "Zanshin "Keep your back to the wall and you'll be safe" stuff reminds me of my all time favorite false hood "99% of all fights go to the ground."
I realize the Gracies grew up in Brazil where the local boys would leave you alone whilst you rolled around on the ground mano-eh- mano like a bunch of puppys. Here, your opponents buddies and other assorted miscreants who just love mayhem, will nail you from behind with glee.
I wish I coulda had them grow up in my neck of the woods- they'd be dead- or they'd think different. I had a great time on the floor once-kneeling over this guy in a biker bar.
My "Zanshin" was -of a sudden- made blindingly aware as his buddies boot came right across my face. I was never to be found on the ground since. And all of that started out with the bartender who was standing there with HIS Zanshin intact and his "use the force Luke" scanning ability going over the 50 or so people present... and…….AND……there he stood, safely, with his “back to the wall”
When out of the crowd a glass or bottle hits the mirror next to him and shattered itself and the mirror and sliced up his cheek and eye socket.

There goes three of the "ooh I'm a martial artist" myths- in just one- of my old "nights out on the town with the boys" days.
I guess I’ll leave all this “I’m a prepared fighter-warrior” stuff to the suburban white boys who love it so.

Perhaps a far better use of Martial axioms would be something like;
Do not drink excessively
Do not associate with people who do
Do not frequent bad places
Live an austere life- not letting yourself be convinced to want much.
Stay away from partying men and women
Learn to be satisfied with your family
Be a farmer
Shugyo at every chance
Things like that.
Then you are not habituating bad environments and thus minimizing risk.
That may be the most cogent of martial "preparedness" in a civilian venue.

Dan
“Who moved to the sticks and has never had to “deal” with or been attacked by, a tree”

Scott
3rd September 2001, 19:10
Gentleman,

As I was laying down this morning to go to sleep I was reviewing in my mind my posts and I discovered to my dismay that I had grossly overstated my numbers. The yard I had worked on had only 1,100 inmates housed there. Commonly only about 900-1,000 inmates would be on the yard on a weekend with nice weather. Please accept my apologies for overstating my figures. I have no explanation for how I inflated the numbers so greatly. I was so disturbed by the inaccuracy that I had to post this correction before I could go to sleep with a clear conscience. Perhaps I should not stay up all night posting on BB. I would have posted this before I slept, but my cable connection was down.

Sincerely,

Scott R. Brown

Scott
3rd September 2001, 19:13
Dan,

I wholeheartedly agree with your axioms.

Scott R. Brown

Kit LeBlanc
3rd September 2001, 19:38
Dan,

I'm with ya, though I think this thread has REALLY drifted now.

I have to admit being a BJJ and Judo practitioner, I enjoy groundwork a great deal, but sport style ground work is the last thing I want to be doing in real situations. The main reason is that situational awareness will be very much hindered, even kneeling on top of the guy as you point out. For Scott's prison gaurd situation as he set it out for us, groundwork should be avoided at all costs (i.e. that Mini-14 better be laying down rounds if a guard gets taken down by an inmate).

"Pulling guard" with a man on top of me between my legs is a last ditch technique for real fighting, to be done only when you're already down and you don't want him coming around so he is completely on top of you. But the way many people perceive such groundfighting you'd think it was the basis of all such systems.

I have had one instance where circumstances led to a suspect coming over on top of me where I was on the ground (we fell out a back door down a three foot drop with some very narrow steps). An impact weapon was my tactic of choice to keep him OFF of me. I wanted no part of that! Besides, we were going at in the dark in a back yard full of dog (I hope!) excrement and who knows what else on the ground.

That being said, as you know I am a great believer in groundwork for police. I think that a lot of encounters do go to the ground, particularly police encounters, 'cause that is where cops want to take the guys that REALLY want to fight. As we have pointed out in this thread, sometimes things don't go the way you want them too!

Wristy twisties usually don't work on the guys that are really motivated against you, whether in an assault or in trying to escape, and the oft quoted urban white boy samurai (hey!! Wait a minute, that's ME :)) response of repeatedly striking them and/or breaking a wrist or elbow often does little more than piss that kind of people off. They can very much use the crippled limb to beat you with.

To quote Rory Miller, a corrections officer who used to post on E-budo, they don't often go to the ground because people WANT them to, you end up there because other stuff ain't working. "Get down on the ground" is the well known refrain, and no matter what, someone is going to have to make contact on a prone suspect in order to cuff. I think nowing how to pin someone down and control him in place to pre-empt a surprise ground assault is a good thing.

Some of the ground methods we are working with for SWAT and patrol situations look much more like koryu pins and controls, taking our weapons (and theirs!) into account, and while certainly not the best of positions to be in, this kind of training at least allows for somewhat of a tactical response in such a situation over the sheer panic of "ohmygod I am on the ground I don't know how to fight here."

The way I see it, if I can dominate someone quickly on the ground, where I will probably end up, particularly with guys bigger than I am, the better I can control them and pay attention to the surrounding miscreants bent on wreaking havoc with their Doc Martens. At that point I would transition to my sidearm, and if anyone made a move they would be risking getting shot, because if I am controlling one on the ground, and a second or several more started coming in, my reasonable use of force just went to lethal, 'cause that is what could very well happen to me.

Interestingly, too, some of the things I have seen in a training environment show certain seemingly combatively insane ground methods as being quite useful in assaults with edged weapons and weapon retention situations. Some of these methods are also useful to buy time and space in order to access a weapon.

I have also seen some koryu battlefield methods of a Sengoku era ryuha which actually had quite a bit of groundwork in it, but mainly dealing with armed enemies at very close range in situations where tai sabaki is hampered by position. The intent, as I understood it, was that these were "Oh Sh*t" tactics for when you ended up in basically the LAST place you ever wanted to be. The methods were nothing like sport grappling, but I found that the more sport oriented grappling training (i.e. randori...force on force training) allowed for a much more realistic understanding of how to pull the non-sport methods off against resisting opponents.

So I guess it's six of one, 1/2 dozen of the other, I guess.

Kit

Dan Harden
3rd September 2001, 21:13
Kit
I think you understand my position from past posts that I have trained exstensively on the ground- and we were among the many who trained in jujutsu way before all that Gracie marketing and the UFC. I Haven't got there in too much depth with this new group I am teaching though. But suffice to say I S T R O N G L Y advocate ground work in anyones repertoire. SO much so- that if you do not train there I think you don't have much to offer as an artist.

That said, it shouldn't be axiomatic to discuss ground work and assume that all fights will go there. There are ways to counter going there, other than accepting it and vying for positionas well ways to try preventing going there alltogether and some of us train in them extensively and they should be emphasized as strongly as counting on "winding up" there.

LE requirements are different in the many ways and your responses to a perp are limited and governed. For most of us; ground work to jujutsu is like tameshigiri to kenjutsu, you need to do it, and do it well. But to overemphasize it is a mistake.

There are many things to learn and learn well; standing up. In Kumi-uchi techniques with weapons and armor (do them with a simple Kendo Bogu and you get a feel for why they are like they are-different) you see the need and use for leg stops, binds and or reaps, as well as weapon placement and vectors with their upper body over their center line. The hips are much more difficult to use and interchange and fit-ins are of a much more different "feel," as well as being more diificult to control- you really miss that close in "body rub" feel that is a sort of sixth sense to where he is placing his weight. Its just "different." Its a good way to train because with armor off it is waaayy easier- it feels like a gift.
How this transitions to ground work and pinning is one of the few Shining moments for modern day application of Koryu jujutsu. There are some very lovely things to do with your legs while you are working their chest/lungs/diaphram while controlling potential weapon engagment. Attacking people with your chest and knocking the wind out of them, or blacking them out with your thighs as a percussion weapon erstwhile controlling their limbs has raised quite few eyebrows. Not to mention the many ways to control using your own legs both standing and prone.

In CQC where there are a host of potential weapons involvement with no armor it makes a worthwhile study. I am never without a knife and many of the techniques we train in are designed to be used with one as a finish.

At any rate, the agressiveness and what feels like hyper-control of the centerline can be used while standing to wind up behind them. The ways to make contact and heighten the "perceived" speed and in particular the control fall into "Aiki" territory....so nothing offered from me there.
Much of this is rarely emphasized today from what I have seen - and is another worthwhile pursuit. Once there and in very close-controlling the centerline through the shoulder to hip interchange and then back makes it extremely difficult for them to maintain any sort of steady posture and skeletal control. In that same vain you have them and can manipulate them using theirs. I have worked with some very experienced artists who were NOT cooperating and were quite surprised at how easily their postures could be manipulated. Its too hard to explain here, and several arts know how to do it. I won't go into detail anyway.
Suffice to say I prefer to spend countless hours training to remain standing and working distance and centerline till I need to control and engage a weapon. I will spend maybe a fourth of that training time on the ground. With the possibility of encountering weapons ever growing I don't like close in work unless I feel I can control it and use mine-and being on the ground with a weapon is not place I would ever go to by choice.
Your mission goals- to take people to the ground to control- particularly with back up, are wise and cogent. But again, you have your limits as to what you can and cannot do. CQC on a Military level is different from LE.


Dan

INFINOO
4th September 2001, 01:43
I thought this was a thread on knife fighting ?
First off every fight I get in is a knife fight.Mine. Even if the Bad guy has no knife I do so even if I dont choose to draw my blade. I still must retain the knife I carry on my person. As far as ground fighting my definition is if your feet or any part of your body is touching the ground then your ground fighting. Its funny , but where are these so called "standup fighters feet" Anyway, have any of you incorperated knife fighting in a horizontal postion. In my acadamey we have unsharpened dulled pocket knives for this kind of training. Check out Spyder_co knives as they sell the same kind of thing. They are the same as are every day carry just no sharp edge or pointy tip. Use controll and eye protection as they can still do major damage if you get carried away. Some drills you might want to try are : 1. Try to aquire, draw cut or stab your way loose while someone has you in the gaurd, side mount rear choke or mount. . 2. Another is stopping the bad guy from drawing the knife in your pocket or waiste band before you can. We have experienced that even a training drone can even the odds quite nicley for smaller and weeker students. Plus it adds a sense of realisim that mere empty hand cant give. From my experience this brings grappling to a new level. After doing this for a while you will see the logic of carrying more that one blade , as it is diffucult to get to any one position all the time. While not to practial while fighting while standing , a clipit in the sock is somtimes a good thing in the context of a fight that may end up in a heap on the ground. While your down there you might find grip switching and knife manipulation most helpfull. From are experience in doing this type of training edge up grips with pulling motions are most effective.
Train smart, first get good, then get fast.
Let me know what you come up with.

Gregory Rogalsky
Director of Rogalsky Combatives International

Cady Goldfield
4th September 2001, 02:20
You checkin' your e-mail, pal?:look:

Kit LeBlanc
4th September 2001, 02:22
Dan,

Absolutely.

I was thinking about my last post and a point that you brought up in yours. I think ground control is perhaps better advised for law enforcement than self defense or military CQC for reasons mentioned. Self defense/military wise, or prison yard wise for that matter, I think there is a stronger call to remain as mobile as possible and not be so concerned about physically controlling the opponents position when pinned to the ground.

Over-emphasizing ground work over other combative ranges is a mistake. I think that some people feel BJJ is more "combative" because they emphasize groundwork. These folks don't realize that such an emphasis makes BJJ LESS combative. The reason it is so EFFECTIVE inmany instances is that very, very few people place any emphasis at all on groundwork and thus are sitting ducks once the fight gets there.

Still, while most fights may go to ground for whatever reason, they all start standing up. I recently took up formal and regular practice of judo after dabbling in it here there specifically to work on those aspects of displacing/taking balance and sensing a bad guy's position by feel, instantly, in non-cooperative situations.

I was disappointed in the kata-only focus of koryu because I did not feel I was gaining that sense by working kata takedowns...though I think as a whole the classical methods are closer to what you will do in an actual combative situation, the emphasis on the force on force training method better prepares you to control those elements you mention to displace a standing, moving, and resisting opponent.

I have been mulling over my take on aiki recently and I think that maybe Ken Good and James Williams and the guys at Surefire are taking it where it needs to be tactically and CQB wise--- as a weapon art, hand held and angles wise with CQC firearms (rifle and handgun). I have been trying to get to one of their classes to see it applied first hand from guys with the background they have. In a recent baton class I took it was impressed on me that there is a lot more feetsa moving, angles-a-takin', ground covering need in standing weapons encounters than I train for, and thus my training needs more depth. I didn't see that level of movement in the sword kata training that I have been exposed to, but then again I saw the most basic stuff and it is probably on a much higher level and more sophisticated after you have really focussed on training in that manner.




Originally posted by INFINOO
I thought this was a thread on knife fighting ?
First off every fight I get in is a knife fight.Mine. Even if the Bad guy has no knife I do so even if I dont choose to draw my blade. I still must retain the knife I carry on my person. As far as ground fighting my definition is if your feet or any part of your body is touching the ground then your ground fighting. Its funny , but where are these so called "standup fighters feet" Anyway, have any of you incorperated knife fighting in a horizontal postion. In my acadamey we have unsharpened dulled pocket knives for this kind of training. Check out Spyder_co knives as they sell the same kind of thing. They are the same as are every day carry just no sharp edge or pointy tip. Use controll and eye protection as they can still do major damage if you get carried away. Some drills you might want to try are : 1. Try to aquire, draw cut or stab your way loose while someone has you in the gaurd, side mount rear choke or mount. . 2. Another is stopping the bad guy from drawing the knife in your pocket or waiste band before you can. We have experienced that even a training drone can even the odds quite nicley for smaller and weeker students. Plus it adds a sense of realisim that mere empty hand cant give. From my experience this brings grappling to a new level. After doing this for a while you will see the logic of carrying more that one blade , as it is diffucult to get to any one position all the time. While not to practial while fighting while standing , a clipit in the sock is somtimes a good thing in the context of a fight that may end up in a heap on the ground. While your down there you might find grip switching and knife manipulation most helpfull. From are experience in doing this type of training edge up grips with pulling motions are most effective.
Train smart, first get good, then get fast.
Let me know what you come up with.

Gregory Rogalsky
Director of Rogalsky Combatives International

Greg,

Yep, just like every fight I get into is a "gunfight."

Every try "gun groundfighting." Very interesting.

I have trained in different setups of kendo bogu where we started standing with shinai (but tried to use actual kenjutsu technique and not kendo points) and allowed takedowns and ground grappling. It was very interesting study in manuevering the swords on the ground for better position and establishing control to access shorter weapons for the "kill." Also very interesting what body armor, even partial body armor, does to technique.

Kit

INFINOO
4th September 2001, 03:48
Hey Kit: Good one on the "gun grappling". Several years ago there was a guy who was teaching a clipit coure for gun retention to the police. It sounded like a decent course. Although, I think that a 4 inch fixed blade with a good sized handle at the off hip is a even better. Infact, I designed a knife called the Rogaltac for that very purpose.
When you have the right tool for the right job it makes life easy. Where as, if all you have is a hammer everything is a nail.

Gregory Rogalsky
Director Rogalsky Combatives International

Dan Harden
4th September 2001, 04:21
Kit
A couple of points (ya got my interest a' popin)
I'll try to touch on em individually.

Don't think all Koryu are staid and stiff- their not. Some of the guys who have lived in Japan for years will probably tell you that.

Don't think those of us who have studied them are staid and stiff either. I am a quintisential experimenter. I take everything and work it into a framework that I know will function to play a man. I must confess that much of what I have learned needed to be revamped- more for technical approach than for principle.

There are some very fine principles and extremely violent techniques that are both rational and cogent to modern combatives. Particularly in some applied jujutsu techniques.

In weapons there are just so many corraleries that it was suprising. That could include stick instead of sword and gun instead of sword or knife.

That brings me to your point on footwork- or as you put it "feet-sa movin"
Learnig to vector and work a man should be the number one training tip taught to anyone. In my experience I have rarely seen it done well, and through discussion its seems hardly known.
anyway here is another simple example for cogent methodology from a koryu to today.
Something as mundane as target aquisition and dealing with vectoring to wound -then wound-till you can stop to kill- is one Koryu arts methodolgy and teaching for multiple foes. This applies seemlessly with modern gun combatives where you would move and vector instead of remaining stationary (and a target) where you gain advantage of gross motor aiming and wounding and then finishing. In both scenarios you gain a tactical advantage of shock and displacement then hopefully buy time for a killling blow/shot. The principles are saliant from old to new.
Just the mechanics for aiming and body motion, breathing, lower body mobility, being able to hopefully maintain a dominant mindset through relaxed, focused clarity, to offset the induced stress...etc. Its there in Koryu.
I don't think we will make combat ready soldiers in a dojo or any sort of that fantasy land hoopla. But there is an absolute difference to this type of training then most of what I have seen out there.

I don't know what I think about your force on force training. I am a big fan of "good" Judo. But Judo without Kata (to me) is hollow.
Any guy who has randori-ed forever without much kata will only improve with it. Its just two sides of a very valuable coin to me.

Anything without Kata (to me) is shot with problems. You work it out- in Kata. You learn-through Kata. You inculcate- through kata. The door way to Mushin (more Japanese!! :) Automatic response reflex) is IN.......kata
Force on force is not the place to learn principle. It is the place to test your level of understanding. Of course its hard to get a good combination of the two-particularly if you want to go to small motion, relaxed body combatives VS much of Aikido horse-pucky people think is supposed to actually work. It takes more time than most people are comfortable spending. But the rewards are great though.

That grappling in armor I mentioned and you responded to should be tried by anyone who has trained in those types of techniques. It answers some questions as to the how and why of the initial design of them. I hate doing it- its robs you of much of what you could do. But its an eye opener.

hopefully this addressed your points

Dan

Kit LeBlanc
4th September 2001, 04:22
Greg,

I think your right, particularly in terms of deployment options, but I really don't think you'll see many LE agencies letting their uniformed patrol officers wearing such blades on their duty belts. SWAT maybe, but not for patrol. Funny thing is patrol is where you will probably need it most.

Kit

INFINOO
4th September 2001, 04:57
Kit Leblanc: Thanks for the support. you may be right about the fixed blades and it being to scary for the powers that be. The Rogaltac also comes in a folder version which is the exact same shape as the fixed blade only it folds and has a pocket clip or breakaway kydex. So I may have that base covered. Look for my ad in Tactical Knives soon. The real problem that I see is that the police are not giving enough time to train in hard skills like gun retention, baton, arrest and control handcuffing,knife/counter knife and driving ect.
I was just at a party with a district sergent and he told me the biggest problem he has with his officers that most are over weight, in fact he said obese. I guess its time cops start walking the beat again. Or maby ride mountin bikes. I have seen mountin bike patrol police in the down town core. Those guys are in great shape, and man are those bikes quite. You can be walking along lisening for footsteps and never hear them creeping up behind you. Its hard to beat the element of surprise.
Gregory Rogalsky
Director of Rogalsky Combatives International

Kit LeBlanc
4th September 2001, 05:18
Dan and Greg,

We are all posting at the same time I can't keep up!!! BTW, Neil just opened the tactical awareness question up in a dedicated thread!

Dan,

No I agree with you. I was lucky enough to train under an instructor who felt the same way about adapting and revamping the koryu for real world situations, it was not at all staid and stiff. I learned a lot but there were simply some areas where continued practice was moving away from what I ultimately wanted to get out of it. I have not closed the door on future practice of koryu, I have several other friends studying different koryu under highly qualified teachers and we discuss these very issues on a regular basis. I would like to see more breaking out of kata to account for an uke attempting to defeat your takedown/lock/strike etc. though, but perhaps I simply am not understanding what the traditions are trying to accomplish with kata.

I also agree with you on kata and principle. I like my judo club but it is definitely very sport focussed. Kata doesn't even come into the picture 'til shodan. I hope to one day be able to integrate more kata into my training, both judo kata and koryu kata, or at the very least have my koryu friends coming in and sharing elements of their systems that I can then adapt to what I am doing with judo and BJJ. I'd love to find a club that trained like the old Kodokan, different koryu masters coming in and sharing techniques and helping develop the kata training. I still think randori as the larger part of the training curriculum is important, but I would like to see more combatively oriented randori (allowing many of the kinshi waza that BJJ practices, allowing more kansetsu waza and atemi) and more breaking down/analyzing of the technical principles within the kata.

Thing I disagree with is that "koryu" is necessarily effective or "combative." For a while I think I was looking to simply be able to add XYZ-ryu to my training profile, because, after all, if it was koryu is MUST be more combative. I have found that is not really the case as it applied to my line of work. Some of it I can't use except in the most extreme of circumstances. Some of it long ago lost practical applicability based on some kata I have seen.

Greg,

I am lucky in that my agency is one in which a lot of training is to be had. We have a state of the art firearms program and our DT program appears to be catching up. Our agencies instructors are increasingly being tapped region wide to train members of other departments, I think because this emphasis on good training is recognized.

Kit