Rank Requirements

[Charlie Kondek]

Can anyone tell me why requirements for judo rank are not standardized around the world or even in the U.S.? Or am I misreading the situation (the official USJA site says there is a handbook but that grading varies from club to club.)

Are the gokyu no waza divided into five sets as a grading curriculum?

What has been your experience on the requirements for each rank? The USJA site said a shodan should know the gokyu and be proficient in newaza and kata?

I'm just curious, getting back into judo with a great club and wondering what the future will be like. Obviously, I am more concerned with what my instructor wants from me immediately, but I'm just curious as to what others' experience has been. Thanks in advance!

[Barry Southam]

Friend,

The three major Judo organizations in the U.S.A. are the USJF, USJA, and USJI....Before I go any further with my comments...I'm sure Mark F., as well as others could give you a more concrete perspective on common rank standards among the various Judo groups or lack thereof....You should also remember that there are other Judo organizations that have credible leaders that more or less have life memberships with one or all three previously mentioned...But for whatever reason, whether it be due to JUDO POLITICS or sport vs martial art emphasis, have developed another Judo group.. Any group outside the USJF,USJA or USJI must be a member of one of these three at the present time to aspire to the Olympics, I think... However, if you aren't a member just get a USJI membership card as I am told at one of the tournaments...

I cannot answer why each group has slightly different rank requirements, time in grade longer for noncompetitors,etc.,etc.,.....

Example of what I think a Judoka should know by shodan:

1. Gokyo No Waza ( 40 throws)
2. Holds,Chokes, Jointlocks
3. Nage No Kata
4. Basic blocking,Striking techniques
5. Martial art application of the principles
and techniques of Judo( selfdefense applicatin)

* those interested in the sport application of Judo should
know shiai rules and strategy for competition***

I'm not interested in sport Judo and don't require this...


I think if the above is followed,then you should have no problem being accepted by any Judo group....yes, there would probably be things I have missed here...But, I feel the bulk of the material is covered....That anything new that you must learn wouldn't be monumental for you to learn...





I guess the question would be : what are you looking for in a Judo organization ? Hard core competition or heavy duty emphasis on martial art application ...Or maybe an organization that offers both ?

We all teach and study Judo...It's the secondary interest that we might not have the same goal in such as Sport vs Martial Art...

Just make sure that the leaders of the Judo group or organization have legitimate Judo credentials....In the USA, they would all probably be traced back to one of the three mentioned earlier......Maybe an outside group such as 1. Kokusai Budoin
2. Butokukai 3. U.S. Yudo Association 4. Republic of Korea Yudo Association....


I don't know if I have helped you at all but thought I would try...


Barry E. Southam

[MarkF]

Actually, Barry's comments, hit the nail on the head when he said "politics." But this a gray area, and the three organizations, two under the umbrella of USA judo (dba US Judo Inc., or USJI). All are on the web and easily found on any search engine.

Enter: United States Judo Federation (the first in the US beginning in the fifties). USJA, the result of a law suit against the USJF, were accepted under the even bigger umbrella of the International Judo Federation ( http://www.ijf.org ).

As far as requirements for grade to shodan, this really does vary when it is competition which is the driving force. Most know many techniques, but in shiai, numbers of wins, and probably more importantly, participation can level the bridge. Most use only a few techniques in competition, and that hasn't changed, but international rule has.

As to judo, as budo, a mixture of everything is a really good idea. Randori is important for fine-tuning the kata of randori no kata (katame no kata and nage no kata), and kata is principal to learn what isn't allowed in randori.

Lots talk about the rules of judo contests being what judo is about, but it isn't, that is, it isn't everywhere, but it is true it is harder to find a school which doesn't at least have some competitive participants. This isn't a bad thing, as Barry isn't a competitior, but will help any students of his enter, if they so choose. The rest of judo usually becomes important when the competitior cannot compete anymore, and as in any combative sport, the retirement age is around thirty. I was one of those, but when my "career" was winding down, I sought out to learn the rest of the syllabus, which takes more than a lifetime to do.

As to time in training and yudansha, this varies, too, with the average being four to ten years, with those of really good fighting results getting to shodan in short order. The USJF is the most conservative of all three judo organizations in the US, with a list of high-ranking judoka counted on just over one hand (or if you have a couple of extra fingers, then one hand;) .

If you check with the USJA, you will find a lot of long timers with 6-dan, as to go beyond this in the sporting side of judo, any grade over this must be approved by the International body. The Kodokan has and keeps completely separate records, with the only two recognized 10-dan with grades not anywhere near the same grades there. Kodokan competition is a different affair as well. There is only two types of partial point scoring, yuko and waza-ari with the IJF, the IOC representative for judo having the koka, which is half-score of yuko.

Outside of all this, the judo clubs generally are pretty good, are available to check out with sample classes or to observe, usually located in YMCA, Parks and Recs., or University/community colleges having programs. Today, you may find aikido or karate clubs which share facilities, and even with boxing clubs, as did one of my dojo in LA, the Hollywood dojo (I'm not sure it still exists where it did back then, as the building was old when I attended).

So check out the local clubs, many are listed on other dojo websites for people who cannot travel to theirs, and contact the college and universities in the area.

A good web site to get started, is Big Sky Judo in Montana at the U of M. The site is filled with one of the best online judo history pages I've seen: http://www.bstkd.com/judo.htm . Book reviews, and other fun stuff all about judo. It is a generic site in that it leans to neither side in the political fight.

You can check out the Kano Society (http://www.kanosociety.org) and the Budokwai.org (http://www.budokwai.org), the first club to be put together outside of Japan, and the Society is a rather new site with the intention of savoring all judo.
*****
The best advice is to find a judo dojo and give it a go for a while. If you don't like it, you can find another. Dojo visits are always welcome. There is a good reason on the default page of Big Sky judo which I've posted here before. Take a look.:)

Mark

[Charlie Kondek]

Actually, I've found a great club here at Eastern Michigan University, and have been attending for a couple months. Prior to this, I had some experience in jujitsu, so there's been some overlap.

Probably won't be much of a competitor if the career winds down at 30 - I'm 29!! But I am interested in it as both sport and self-defense. I've always enjoyed it and am glad to finally be part of a good club under a very good instructor.

I was just curious. Thanks for all the good leads; I've been enjoying judoinfo.com a lot. I'm really not that concerned about rank, but was just wondering what was involved in each step. The only thing I should be thinking about right now are basics and maybe requirements for 6-kyu (yellow belt?)

[rsamurai2]

i recieved my shodan in 1 and 1/2 years through usja. i had to know 40 throws but was only asked 30. i also had to know the goshin jutsu kata. i was tested by a pannel of five black belts rangeing from shodan to rokudan 1 of being an ijf referee. and kata referee. i do not compete in shiai. don't like the rules and have very little to do with any sport emphasis. but i have 6 years of experience in jujutsu prior to judo. and in a couple of weeks i test for my shodan in usja jujitsu. i will be teaching a combination of usja jujitsu,jujutsu, and goshin jitsu. the other black belts in class only want to teach sport judo. this is a big frustration with me but thats another thread. i know i was promoted early and probably should have waited but my instructor knows i will never compete (i am 38 years old) i have locked up my instructor who is a ryokudan several times and recieved a jump promotion. i am glad to see judo being taught as a martial art because all i have seen here in texas is sport. if i didn't need a kata for shodan i never would have learned goshin jutsu. no form of self defense or martial/combat principles are even taught in my dojo. our randori is always done as if it were a shiai. i was told most of my techniques were at nidan level. i had all the promotion points from class, clinics and working the tables at senior nationals and other tournaments through out the state of texas. i am very familar with shiai rules and know all the japanese vocabulary and history. so all though i may have recieved my shodan quickly i know more than most about judo history and compiled a 2" binder full of judo related articles that i have given the other black belts in class to study.
thats my judo black belt background.

[MarkF]

Richard,
Well, I don't think anyone said you can't work an get to shodan in 18 months, but since you are so defensive about it, what is the problem?

Common place in Japan for those older than other students to get shodan in a few months with perhaps four good nage waza, katame, etc.

Sport application have similar so-called "street application" if you approached it that way, but giving up on it because you don't like the sport in it does no one any good.

And BTW, does budo have to have street application to be approved as good budo? Sword techniques translate well into taijutsu technique, and for the most part, people don't carry swords.

I'm curious as to what makes you so angry and to be snidely dismissing judo like you do.

How many in your dojo made a regular practice of entering every tournament? There are only so many at the top and most go in with a good idea of that, as few make it to the top.

If you had nidan level judo, you don't seem to act like it, but with people giving you the chance, and making 18 months count, you are one angry person. It would seen you would be more content to beat the tar out of people on the same regular basis people do it on the mat, so isn't there some connection here?

Anyway, I think I posed a question somewhere, but if you were that good, how did a judo teacher who you regularly beat give you the idea that the application could not pose a practical one for it?

Mark

[rsamurai2]

Mark,
What’s your problem with me? what have i done to you. because i have a different opinion of what judo should be that makes you better or smarter or more understanding (with respect to judo) than me? i am not angry. and not defensive about my shodan. i know i received it kind of of quick. so may
be a little insecure about what other people think of it but that’s all. i never said i beat my instructor on a regular basis either, but i have beaten him several times along with many other black belts nidan and above when i was a green belt. but that is because of my jujutsu background not because i am some kind of badass that wants to beat people up. i believe sport judo is the fall of judo it is a de-evolution not an evolution. judo should be taught with kata, self defense and shiai because shiai is part of judo but it is not the main emphasis. Kano called competition judo godon judo or low judo appealing more to the crowds. judo is about preserving the combat techniques of jujutsu that was fading out along with the development of character something lost with ego driven competitors. the most arrogant people i have ever met were the sport judo competitors who think because the won a shinny medal they are self defense experts and martial artists. the most humble people in judo i have met are those you teach judo as a martial art

and as far as budo being a sport also, it cannot. Donn Draeger in is article "an analysis of competition" states, "it is patent that no budo can house a sport form and still be a budo form" i suggest you read the article on judo info page.

here is another little excerpt that might interest you also.

Contest Judo
By Gunji Koizumi

Copyright © 2000 all rights reserved. From Budokwai Quarterly Bulletin, April 1951. Copyright © 1951, the Budokwai http://www.budokwai.org. Reprinted by permission of Richard Bowen.

The late Prof J. Kano and his disciples have often warned against or deprecated the style or method of training and practice called "Contest Judo". The term refers to the type of judo developed solely to win contests as if it were the end of the training, disregarding the intention and purpose for which judo was originally founded. Some of the methods, therefore, are crude and forcible, if not dangerous. The training is highly specialized and unbalanced, like that of some jujutsu schools in pre-judo days..."

and the list goes on.

i think i can back up my OPINION can you back up yours?

.

[Barry Southam]

Richard,

We are all friends here who truely want to share information for the betterment of all as well as opinions in a civil manner....
I have been around Judo since 1967 and have always studied and taught Judo as a traditional Martial art...For many years I had a problem with people saying Judo is only a sport and not a martial art and that really irritated the H--- out of me... But you know Richard, we all study the techniques of Judo....Some don't study Kata,Striking, Blocking or martial art application or even many throws.....Hey, I don't know rules for shiai or even compete!!!! We all take from Judo what is of interest to us and our needs....That is what is so great about the Traditional martial art of Judo....It has something for all of us at any age!!!!! But we all have the same foundation"JUDO"...
Richard I suggest you find a Judo dojo that meets your needs and if you cannot find one....Maybe you can get some others together and car pool to a school that meets your needs for Martial art Judo..... Instructors differ from place to place and some require more in the area of rank requirements than others....That dosen't mean one is better than another, just different perspective/outlook....
Randori and competition can greatly help in your study of Street application....Responding to and adapting to an opponents ever changing attack can be found in regular randori and shiai....Yes, defenses against various street attacks from punches and kicks, headlocks, full nelson hold, to clubs, knives and multiple attackers might not be included in your school....But the principles learned from Body movment ( Kuzushi, Posture, moving in relationship to another), keeping from being taken to the ground, grip defenses, toughening oneself mentally and physically, reacting quickly to opponent(attacker), etc.,etc.,... Is all learned in our
"Centered Study Of Judo" regardless of our secondary interest:
Sport/ Selfdefense application....
As much as I want everyone to learn the martial art application of Judo...I had to realize and mellow out that as long as we all try to study Judo...If someone else doesn't think the study of Kata is important or learning to defend yourself or loved ones and learn what "I" think is important, SO BE IT !!!! That's on them....Just like my not attending shiai or pushing sport, that's on me!!!!!

Richard, my advice for you is to find a school that meets your needs or maybe stay after class with others and train in what is special to you...

Another area of concern to me is someone boasting about beating or outdoing the instructor or higher belt in class....Richard, I am not coming down on you but offering advice which is : it isn't propper etiquette to talk like that....It would take too much time to discuss it but please consider not doing it at your dojo or here....Rank follows the character of the student and not reverse....

Richard, many of us have been around a long time such as Mark F. and myself....We aim at respecting each other due to knowing how hard we all paid our dues in hitting the mat over the years and helping others, regardless of our secondary interests in Judo.....It's like a family..... WELCOME !!!!


Take Care

Barry E. Southam

[rsamurai2]

Mr. Southam,
You would have needed to read all of my history of posts on e budo to understand this one. Mark knows what i am talking about. This has been an irritation for me from the start. I expressed sometime back about why there was such an emphasis on shiai. And I was pretty much blasted for being some kind of blasphemer. This put me on the defensive having to explain my position. I wanted to know what was the big deal with shiai. The rules take all of the fighting out of the game. I had a problem with grips, negative judo, and false attack dragging your opponent to the mat for newaza. That is how I fought for many years in karate and jujutsu. So I asked the question why the emphasis on shiai. My argument was in respect to self-defense you fight like you train. If you train with all these rules than, you will fight that way when the time comes. In stead of an answer explaining a position I was blasted as some kind of nut! Does randori help in self-defense, yes if it is practiced as such. I have proved over and over in many sport judo clubs that if you grab me i will punch you and grab your head in a very unsportsman like way and take you down. My point isn't to hurt anyone but to open their eyes. If all you do is practice judo as a shiai (which is all that is down in my club and most of the clubs I have been to in Texas) than that is all you are going to do in a self-defense encounter. You fight like you train. I could never win in a shiai because I don't train that way. When I brought up the fact of beating higher belts it was meant with no disrespect and if it came across as such, I am truly sorry. It was only meant to point out a fact that when they play with me even though you do away with all shiai rules they still fight the way you train, and I beat them. This is only meant to point out a weakness. Mark has been on my a$$ since I first posted because I differ in opinion.

Btw there are no clubs anywhere around that I know that teach judo as a martial art. And these people on these forums attack me for wanting to teach it as one. My instructor will be leaving to move away soon I will be taking the school over and de-emphasizing competition and teach all of judo, as it should be. If you want to compete I am not the man to teach you. If you want to learn how to fight or defend yourself than I am the man to teach you. Even the people in my class want to study judo as a martial art and they though they were. but they didn't know any better because they haven't been exposed to it. Several started going to my jujutsu class because they want to fight like me. I convinced them to stay with judo because judo does have so much to offer. It just seems to me that the competition folks slam the non-competitor people way more then the martial artist say anything about the sport enthusiasts. I never meant to disrespect judo or its practioners but in my experience in judo they seem to look down on us. My background was in a club as a bouncer and now I am a personnel protection specialist (fancy name for body guard) I fight more the most. I tried to hire a friend of mine as a bouncer in a club a nidan and state and national competitor in judo. He could not handle himself and was beaten badly in a bar fight. People don't grip in real life and they don't wear gi's you better know how to convert your techniques into self defense and that is only by practicing that way. That is all I ever advocated practice all of judo, it is a complete m.a. But I have been slammed from the judo community from day one because sport reigns and that has left a very bad taste in my mouth for judo. Randori is no more actual fighting than karate sparring is. People don’t attack that way and people don’t defend that way. Randori and sparring does teach contact, timing, distancing and is very sporting and enjoyable but to say I am a shiai champion thus a self defense expert is a stretch just like if I was to say I am a shiai champion because I am a self defense expert. You fight like you train. Even the sport coaches say this in respect to shiai. Train for shiai always and in a shiai you will be victorious. My dojo is living proof. Every tournament we go to we take a majority of the medals. But even in randori we call points and penalties.
Thank you for your post and concern and i apologize if I seemed disrespectful to you or other high-ranking judoka. Btw if you want sport judo my instructor is the best. He is the world’s nicest person also. And I have nothing but the utmost respect for him but we differ on what judo is, and this is a very big frustration.

Oh yea the start of this thread was about ranking all I did was state how I was ranked and mark attacked me. Again I was put on the defensive.

Richard

[MarkF]

Richard,
I have no problem with you, and I apologize for reading you incorrectly. Your post sounded angry, and I simply was attempting to find out why.

But you are absolutely right about the intention of judo, the club was always a small one, but one in which anyone could give it a try, thus judo for the masses.

I do think, though, it is a misunderstanding of the words and what Mr. Kano really meant. He also said that the problem was a misapplication of judo, as in "muscle techniques." He was concerned about the lack of quality teachers, not the direction of judo. When asked about Olympic Judo, he said that it wasn't his direction for it, but neither would he stand in the way if others were to do so. He lived long enough to see the problems.

I also don't have to back up my argument. I don't defend contest judo, I find a place for it. Neither do I see it, especially at this age, something I can do (shiai). Like Barry, I do see the budo side to it, I simply used my twenty years of competition and then by learning and teaching kata, that it is a two-way sword.

My opinion needs no backing up. Most who post here, btw, feel just as you do, I feel as you do, but for different reasons. Contest judo suffers from a push of it to be entertaining, a game. IJF rules of international shiai have, mostly, been a detriment to judo some do, but there is nothing which governs any dojo or any organizations to follow the rules of the IJF. The Kodokan does not follow that of the IJF. It hasn't always been that way. Judo, the contest, is in the same category as boxing, a combative sport, or combat art. Its victories are symbolic, and it doesn't have to be "street effective" to be budo, or at least it need not be tested that way. I could tell you true stories of one judoka in my old club, who foiled a band robbery, against two people, took a gun away, and tied up one, etcetera, etcetera.

Judo is a lot like water puifying by running over obstacles (rocs, tributaries (different ruling bodies), but that the best of it will be seen and used. The best are attracted to the best, so there are large organizations, ruling bodies (those purifying rocks, etc), and rules themselves which no one, not anyone, has ever said has to be followed.

It may be a small minority, but they are out there. Barry Southam has always done judo the way he has, and is one of the few, thus he is part of the club. He sees as the minority of judoka see. I may have been down the competitiors tracks, but it has been twenty years since my last tournament, but I only got my own dojo in the last few years, in 1987, and since I turned the page, I've found a lot waiting, but I'm not angry at a perceived turn in the way judo is done, as there is nothing wrong with judo. Judo isn't the culprit, it can't be. Not everyone follows for life that contest judo track.

So again I say I'm sorry for reading you wrongly. But if you read your post, you may see what I saw, I don't know.

We both see it, I believe, the same way. I'm just not ready to give up on it. This, as I see it, is the only difference.

Mark

BTW: I do use weapons in what I teach, and I also teach how to defend against them. Pretty hard against a forty-five, but then we are speaking of unarmed fighting, something Jon Bluming calls the "full circle of budo."

[MarkF]

Originally posted by Rsamurai2
I had a problem with grips, negative judo, and false attack dragging your opponent to the mat for newaza.

Hey, Richard,
Didn't you know? False attack is illegal. No one does that.;)

Mark

Richard,
I did not attack you at all. First, think of ways of stimulating a discussion and stir the pot. Anyone here, who knows me, knows I'm a loose cannon at times. That's just me. Never, ever do I take anything here home and sleep with it. I sign off sometimes. Mostly, the judo forum is usually lurked, and fewer come down to join in, so consider yourself welcome here. False attack is illegal, but in my dojo, and in this forum, it is welcome. This is a way of keeping the thing alive. But no wrestling. It must be a well-conjugated verb, better than mine, and if you are going to fake something on the mat, you better have good waza before you take someone to the ground.

Please continue to add to the discussions. Really.

Mark