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View Full Version : Randori no Kata: Your top ten fovorite nage waza



MarkF
19th August 2001, 10:07
I think this will probably be easy for competitiors, or not, if you haven't yet gone beyond uchimata and ippon seoi nage:

Ippon seoi nage
seoiotoshi
O soto gaeshi
O soto guruma
Hane goshi
O guruma
Tsurikomigoshi/Sode tsurikomi goshi
Kuchiki taoshi
Harai goshi
Yoko gake
yoko otoshi
tomoe nagi (in this case, it really isn't a "stomach" throw I like. I played to win).


If this were a shiai list, it would be a lot shorter, or not. Sometimes, the opportunity comes for throws one never thinks of doing in a tournament match. Yoko Otoshi presented itself sometimes, but not as described in books.

Which throw is it which is a hook with the bottom of the foot (say your left) to the opponents left then is pulled inward to your left a little like "kitty-corner" then continue to off-balance uke as there is no left leg to stop him from going down?

In my old dojo in LA there was a guy from Brazil over whom I towered, as he barely made five feet, who really could hook the foot with little chance of escape. In the years I was there, I never completed a front throw on him as he always, and I mean always, landed on his feet.

Mark

PS: How is that for "kitty" corner? Amazed me, anyway.

Also, I think I may have to change the Kuchiki toashi to morote gari, as I did do it crashing in, but grabbing one leg with both hands.

Ben_Holmes
19th August 2001, 18:13
Hmm... interesting question... Randori no Kata (which would include Newaza) or Nage Waza? I went with a more inclusive list... here my favorites (In no particular order):

1. Tai Otoshi
2. Mune Gatame
3. Ude Garami
4. Harai Goshi
5. Sode Tsuri Komi Goshi
6. Kannuki Gatame
7. De Ashi Barai
8. Osoto Gari
9. Juji Gatame
10. Okuri Eri Jime


P.S. Was that a "Baker's 10" list you posted, Mark?

Jack B
20th August 2001, 06:04
As an aikido guy, thus something of a wuss, I'd have to say my favorite throws are

- ukigoshi
- haraigoshi
- osotogari
- hiza guruma
- taniotoshi
- sumigaeshi
- ouchi gari
- kouchi gari
- sukui nage
- tenkai kote hineri (just wanted to see if you're paying attention!)

Jack Bieler
Chiba City, Japan

MarkF
20th August 2001, 10:09
Yes, Ben, Obviously I was having flashbacks or hot flashes. I did mean Nage waza, but since you opened the door, why not include the whole ki-booble?

And yes, I also meant to put in a caveat of not limiting it to just ten. That was only for those who would have a hard time remembering their youth (as I just went through in the topic post).

So yes, if anyone wants to get sidetracked and discuss any waza, please do. I'm not too hard on complete breaks from the topic threads, so go for it, or not.:)

Mark

MarkF
20th August 2001, 10:11
Hey, Jack,
Since you do, or have done judo, many techniques are alike, and some alike techniques aren't so alike, so share anything you've got.

Mark

Ben Reinhardt
21st August 2001, 02:32
My list has changed over the years. Here is a list from when I was in my competitive prime.

1 Kouchi Gari
2 Seoi Nage (either one)
3 Seoi Otoshi (to be picky about the difference between Seoi Nage).
4 Kuchiki Daoshi
5. Kosoto Gake
6. Ouchi Gari
7. Tai Otoshi
8. Osoto Gaeshi (many varieties)
9. I've run out of memory !

Ne waza:
Kazure Kami Shiho Gatame
Sankaku Gatame/Jime
Yoko Shiho Gatame
Kesa Gatame (and various armlocks from it)
Juji Gatame
Hadaka Jime

My current favorite nage waza:
1.) Ashi Barai (take you pick between Okuri and De Ashi)
2.) Ippon Seoi Nage
3.) Tai Otoshi
4.) Kouchi Gari
5.) Sumi Gaeshi
6.) Various forms of Hikkomi Gashi and Obi Tori Gaeshi
7.) Various forms of Kuchiki Daoshi and Kibisu Gaeshi from odd grips and angles.
8.) Kosoto Gari/Gake, again from odd grips and angles.

I'm working on my Tsuri Komi Goshi and Uchi Mata. I also work a lot from one handed grips now, and on attacking after breaking a grip or intercepting an incoming grip.

Katame Waza
Sankaku Jime/Gatame
Mune Gatame and other Yoko Shiho Variations
Koshi Jime
Hasami Jime
Jigoku Jime (different variations)
standing arm locks of various sorts

Ben Reinhardt

MarkF
21st August 2001, 11:55
Hi, Ben,
Yours sound pretty much as mine did about twenty five years ago, and what I try these days. Injuries limit it, but yes, I've been doing one handed nage from attack drills(actually, not a formation, just on the attack). Also, I've been trying to (I know, I should have thought beyond this back then) relearning and attempting to learn throws with a non-grip style while still maintaining proper kuzushi (non-grip as in not gripping the dogi). It is much easier when the uwagi is removed, but doing then in full dogi is a challenge. My hands are on their own.

I thought it would be easier, but well...

I used to do groundwork almost exclusively out of escapes from them.

I am finding that the earlier, basic nage waza, some I wouldn't really use in shiai (unless attacked by a runner) to be more workable now. One handed, in fact, they can retune the old motor. Back to basics, uki goshi, etc.

Mark

MarkF
21st August 2001, 12:01
Yes, now that it is randori only, I can do some variation on standing chokes, most starting from tsukomi-jime, and sankanku gatame transitioning into it. I feel like a beginner sometimes, but no one said "class is out."


Mark

PS: This was my idea, randori, etc., but I'm learning to block, rush, punch, and throw. I've got too much time on my hands.

Ben Reinhardt
22nd August 2001, 05:36
Mark,

My philosophy now is that nobody can get two hands on me without being attacked. Also, if someone manages to grab me, I use the grip/posture they adopt against them. That may mean breaking the grip and using their reaction against them, or using the grip-break as the set up for a throw. I basically want people to be very worried when they touch me, or try to touch me.

This all varies according to the relative size of my opponent/uke. I'm 5'7" and 155 or 160 pounds. So what works on guys my size has to be modified for larger, stronger opponents (most of the guys in Pocatello so far are bigger and younger than me.). Using an over the back grip on a 190 lb. 6 footer is kind of tough, usually. But it can work after certain grip breaking sequences and ashi sabaki. Gotta be fast though !

I too find that basic throws take on new meaning as I get more experience and experiment. That's what keeps Judo so interesting !

Ben Reinhardt

efb8th
25th August 2001, 05:45
Hi, Guys.

Being older and slower, I like sumi otoshi, yama arashi, uki otoshi, and uki goshi (left side for counters), along with harai goshi (high collar grip to arm around the neck) and the kesa gatame that it leads to.

I like to counter ogoshi with a short arm lock, and everything else in the standing forward throws with mangetsu jime (full moon choke). Tani otoshi is always a nice low energy derringer to have in one's pocket.

Interesting topic. Mostly I find zero-force or negative-force arts more interesting these days, and my Mifune video seems to be more worn every year.

Regards,

MarkF
26th August 2001, 08:11
I too find that basic throws take on new meaning as I get more experience and experiment. That's what keeps Judo so interesting !

Ben Reinhardt


Yep. It had been a long time from learning ukigoshi to applying it. Then again, I had one hip throw, a one handed o-goshi thing with my foot off the mat. I know there is a name for it, I just can't think of it.

When younger, I almost always did o-goshi one handed, though my hand would be on the sleeve to reduce injury to the floor.:)
That turns out to be a great self-defense application (though an attacker going through the floor is recommended).

Uki-goshi is a great place to start. Move further to the front, than all the way into seoinage (any form).


My philosophy now is that nobody can get two hands on me without being attacked.

I found this to be true early on. After losing in my first two attempts at shiai thinking counter (or just about anything at that point), I did just that and splat! It worked on the next two, also, but then they had me figured (we were kids, so generally letting it all go was pretty routine with a little experience), and had to work for that.

"....Older and slower..."

Guess what? Like death, we all get there, but not generally at the same time.;)

Mark

Jack B
26th August 2001, 16:37
I don't let anyone get *one* hand on me without attacking them. Maybe that's an aikido thing. When you let someone get two hands on you, as in uchikomi and randori, you are explicitly operating from a disadvantage. This is good training but not good policy in a fight. My experience in shiai is only a few matches, so I don't know where the line is drawn for avoiding the grab. The last time a Judoka reached out for me I immediately moved and threw him with aikido-style sumi-otoshi on his first extended arm, just as his foot touched the ground and before he came anywhere near to contacting me. Like I said, I'm kind of a wuss and convinced that I am no good at grappling, standing or not.

On the other hand, I teach as doctrine that if you let a judoka get behind you, with hadaka-jime or something, you are a goner. This is backed up by certain legends of Gene Lebell. Even a lowly judo ikkyu such as myself can control a larger opponent to the ground and even unconsciousness once the lock is socked in, and kuzushi established. The counters only work before the lock or if there is no kuzushi.

Jack Bieler
Denton, Texas (waah!)

jimmy o'curry
27th August 2001, 04:26
yoko-tomoenage & jujigatame

Jeff Slade

PS: we allow leg-work, so i also like achilles locks & heel-hooks.
:D

MarkF
27th August 2001, 08:04
Watcha gonna do when he doesn't grab for you?

Lots of these guys today. They turtle up standing, turn their sides to you, they don't grip unless they have to.

Here is were Yoko-sutemi waza becomes a good weapon. Grip the back/shoulder of the dogi and if he isn't centered at all, you will get him with the sac. throw, but just as Jime says, be ready with an armlock.

Yeah, I like that combination, too, Jeff.

To the ikyu, if you are going to do the tournament scene often, don't be in a hurry to move up, Jack.

Those guys who are white belts and ungraded stay that way for six years for a reason.;)

Mark

Jack B
29th August 2001, 03:33
Originally posted by MarkF
Watcha gonna do when he doesn't grab for you?
Then you gotta blast in when he's not ready!

Here is where Yoko-sutemi waza becomes a good weapon. Grip the back/shoulder of the dogi and if he isn't centered at all, you will get him with the sac. throw, but just as Jime says, be ready with an armlock. I like it.

To the ikyu, if you are going to do the tournament scene often, don't be in a hurry to move up, Jack.

Those guys who are white belts and ungraded stay that way for six years for a reason.;)

Mark
:D I'm almost 40, does that mean I compete in masters?

That begs the question in another thread; if you're unranked but have 6 years training and can whip everybody, does that make you a judan?

Ben Reinhardt
30th August 2001, 20:26
Originally posted by Jack B
I don't let anyone get *one* hand on me without attacking them. Maybe that's an aikido thing. When you let someone get two hands on you, as in uchikomi and randori, you are explicitly operating from a disadvantage. This is good training but not good policy in a fight. My experience in shiai is only a few matches, so I don't know where the line is drawn for avoiding the grab. The last time a Judoka reached out for me I immediately moved and threw him with aikido-style sumi-otoshi on his first extended arm, just as his foot touched the ground and before he came anywhere near to contacting me. Like I said, I'm kind of a wuss and convinced that I am no good at grappling, standing or not.

On the other hand, I teach as doctrine that if you let a judoka get behind you, with hadaka-jime or something, you are a goner. This is backed up by certain legends of Gene Lebell. Even a lowly judo ikkyu such as myself can control a larger opponent to the ground and even unconsciousness once the lock is socked in, and kuzushi established. The counters only work before the lock or if there is no kuzushi.

Jack Bieler
Denton, Texas (waah!)

Even better, Jack, to not let them get a hand on you. However, with a skilled Judoka, you are not going to have much if any opportunity given to you by an overextended grip (as you described above with your Sumi Otoshi. They will not give away much with their posture or attempts to grab you.

Ben Reinhardt
originally from Wichita Falls !

CEB
30th August 2001, 23:02
Have not competed since 87 or 88. Hears my list, which I am posting mostly to see if I can find out what the proper name of one of my favorite techniques should be.

1. Tai Otoshi
2. Tani Otoshi
3. Hiza Guruma
4. De Ashi Harai - with the hopes of really getting Yoko Gake!
5. Yoko Gake!
6. Sucui Nage
7. Marote Seionage
8. Ippon Seionage
9. YOKO GAKE!!
10. The Masa Masacre

The Masa Masacre is a Jime Waza. We called the Masa Masacre because it was taught to us by Gentleman from Yokohama named Masa Okuyama. I wish I knew the real name of the choke. I'll try to describe it.

1. My opponent is down (face looking toward the mat) but I didn't score an Ippon ( I usually didn't ) so, with my right hand I grab the back of his collar giving some mild downward atemi ( nothing to blatent, I always tried to play nice clean Judo)

2. I reach around the front of his neck with my left hand grabbing his collar on the right side deep behind his right ear.

3. I step up putting my left leg upside his left ear. Then I step with my right leg putting my right leg upside his right ear.

4. Then I frog kick falling over on my right side pulling hard with my left hand.

5. Good night Irene.

I hope that is an accurate description. I am not good at putting things into words. Does anybody recognize this choke and know what the proper name is for it. I've looked in several Judo books but never saw it. I would appreciate any response from you real Judoka. I was just a hack, but I had fun.

C. E. Boyd
"Karate is nice because we can have semi-contact. I wish Judo had semi-gravity. Gravity is a very unforgiving thing" - me