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Benjamin Peters
22nd August 2001, 06:12
Dear e-Budo-Judo forum members,

I usually post on the Ko-Ryu and Ninpo forums, but I am hoping you will be able to provide me with some information on two judo holds :

(a) I am interested in your opinions on how to hold a successful 'kesa gatame' in the heat of competition. Thoughts ? ie How would you hold with 'kesa gatame' to stop the person trying to reverse the hold ?

(b) What are practical ways of escaping/reversing 'kesa-gatame'?

(c) How often to you see 'waki gatame' being used to win a bout in Judo ?

I would appreciate your help...after all I am no expert on Judo.

Thanks in advance ok.....

:confused:'kesa-gatame'

PRehse
22nd August 2001, 06:15
I don't know about Judo but in Aikido competition wakigatamae is one of the more common winning moves.

Benjamin Peters
22nd August 2001, 06:19
Hi Peter,

I would think that this would be the case especially in Aikido where the attacks/distancing (rules) are a little different.

But, when I was watching the Judo in Sydney 2000 I only saw very few, in fact only waki gatame once.......and that was lovely !

:smokin:

PRehse
22nd August 2001, 06:47
Hi Benjamin;

So true - says I knowing next to nothing about Judo - but the fastest wakigatamae I had applied to me was when I was belly to belly with my opponent. He just grabed my wrist an whoop - I was gone.

MarkF
22nd August 2001, 10:25
Originally posted by Benjamin Peters
Dear e-Budo-Judo forum members,

I usually post on the Ko-Ryu and Ninpo forums, but I am hoping you will be able to provide me with some information on two judo holds :

(a) I am interested in your opinions on how to hold a successful 'kesa gatame' in the heat of competition. Thoughts ? ie How would you hold with 'kesa gatame' to stop the person trying to reverse the hold ?

(b) What are practical ways of escaping/reversing 'kesa-gatame'?

(c) How often to you see 'waki gatame' being used to win a bout in Judo ?

I would appreciate your help...after all I am no expert on Judo.

Thanks in advance ok.....

:confused:'kesa-gatame'

Hi, Peter,
Basics are not that different in how things get done. Taijutsu is very similar. In competition, so many get there before the basics are learned, centering, kuzushi, etc., so you see many who "muscle." In person, I may be able to teach you how to do well, if not win a match or two, but teaching for the long term is, well, long term.

A) Holding and maintaining an unbroken kesa gatame. Go back to basics. Maintain the center, and keep it low. Don't be faked into going with uke when he attempts to escape, but don't resist too much. It takes a lot out of you. Always make sure to have the bottom leg up close to uke, generally, in hon kesa gatame, close to the shoulder. Some say to get the knee under the shoulder, but that doesn't make any sense to me. Keep and maintain the body (center) low. If he turns away to escape, lower yourself and maintain balance. If he turns inward, same idea goes, if you feel he is about to turn under and create the space he needs, you do as you would if turning out. Close any gaps which may appear,and use the outer leg to help your balance. Move with uke, not against.

Nothing is inescapable, but if you remember basics, you should do just fine. Breathe, center, and relax, especially don't tense up. You are resisting, something uke will be looking for.

b)As uke in the above, you need space to work. While in most judo shiai today, one can score in as little as ten seconds. While it may be a close match, it is better to work maintain the scoring to an acceptable level and then to escape before waza-ari or ippon are called (or yuko). As with anything, you need to get to know your surroundings, so breathe out and relax the body first, especially if he has you good. There is ma-ai in a pin, even though he is holding you tight, there is always distance, or distance can be created.

Generally, you will have the one arm free, or it should be easy to free if he doesn't get an elbow lock while pinning you. This, obviously is important to prevent. You could try faking, going outside instead of in, when you feel resistence, turn back and get your arm out (right arm in a right side standard kesa), push upward with the body, kind of like pushing your middle in word, and at the feel of resistence, push and pull the arm all the way out, and scoot away, providing you don't have an opportunity to put an arm lock, or your pin own him.

Again, after getting the arm out, he may push back to keep you down, use the same body motion as above, but continue until you can roll over him, and reverse the pin, with another, or again, scoot out and stand. But if you can throw your legs over the top while using the partially escaped arm, to get yourself on an elbow, you can reverse to an opposite kesagatame on him, but where you will be facing the feet, not the head.

It is difficult to describe, but a good book for transitioning in newaza is "Best Judo" by Inokuma and Sato (available in paperback, Kodansha press, ISBN 0-87011-786-6 for the English version)
It won't teach you the true basics, but the moves are pictured and explained very well.

C)Waki-gatame is a great arm bar, but you don't see it often, as most can avoid it. There were a few matches in Sydney won with waki-gatame, usually done during transition from another. Probably, it is done most often when uke is on all fours, a bad position to be in. It isn't a difficult move, but most "turtle" so well that it isn't the most common.

On that, Ben Reinhardt would be one to ask. He is a national class referee. I referee locally (within the state), and don't see it often, but I do see it. It isn't that difficult, once you are in position for it, but in many international matches, such as Sydney, these are the world's best and know how to avoid it.

That said, there are, sometimes, an infinite number of variations on these, well it seems to be, anyway. Some may win with it, but it takes a good referee to see the differences, sometimes requiring replay later.

I hope this helps some.

Mark

efb8th
26th August 2001, 15:17
Hi, Guys.

As hard as it is to follow Mark, this image may help you hold from Kesa better. When uke tries to roll you, imagine the connection on your chest to be an interlocking gear, not a binding grip. This way, when uke rolls left (assuming right kesa), instead of being rolled over the top, you flatten out, chest down, into an even stronger kuzure yokoshiho, by allowing him to go where he wants to go. (Hence the term: JU-do.)

Great question!

MarkF
27th August 2001, 06:45
OK, well, remember your center, and after a while, the different pins just "roll" off the tongue (or tori/uke). I think Ed's post is a good reminder to keep centered. Standing, groundfighting, etc., "center" is the term. Transitioning to one uke chooses for you could be called blending by some.

Mark

Ed, you have a knack, that IS for sure. I've got to stop thinking as the beginner all the time with questions such as this one.

dakotajudo
28th August 2001, 01:40
One small detail to consider in kesa.

When I'm sitting on my left hip (I have a bad right shoulder, so I work left handed), I lift my hips about 1 inch of the ground using my right foot tuck up near my butt. Then I make sure my armpit is largely over uke's sternum.

So my body weight is being support by:
my left heel
my right foot
uke's rib cage

A guy can't fight too much if he can't breathe.

Try not so much to squeeze, as to lay on his chest like a sack of feed. Tensing your body gives uke something to fight against.

Similarly, when being held down, pushing against tori with your upper body gives him something to hold against. Relax and work your way down to his hips.

MarkF
28th August 2001, 09:08
Peter,
Your in good company. That is exactly how Jon Bluming does it, and he can get a tap out from it.

Of course he is a little on the big size, but these days that's who I get my orders from.

Mark