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Ken Allgeier
22nd August 2001, 07:28
Their is a discussion in the Okinawan Martial Arts section about the relationship between the late James Mitose of the Kosho Ryu Kempo and Aikido, here is the claim.


" have however heard about Mitose having had met with Sensei
Ueshiba and Ueshiba giving him a rank. The new higher ups in
Aikido know that this is true, but they discredit the rank saying
that Ueshiba was out of his mind at the time he met Mitose and
tell about him having given some Masters rank to a Ballerina for
her flawless perfomance. But I understood it to not be a martial
arts rank given to Mitose but a certificate of making sure Aikido
schools were practicing the spiritual aspects of the arts. However I
could misunderstand it"

Chuko-Liang
Richard DeBeaulieu


http://204.95.207.136/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5620

I looked at the Aikido Journal encyclopedia and I could not find anything about James Mitose.I hope some of the Aikido folks could comment on the validity of these claims.





Thank You,

ken allgeier

komatsujin
27th August 2001, 02:45
Hello Ken,

You quoted Chuko-Liang in your last post and although he is for the most part correct(what he said is at least partially from me) I'm sure that I could shed some additional light on the subject as I am the one who has been spreding this ugly rumor. Many practioners of Aikido have never heard anything about this, which by itself should make you wonder why. There are in fact two certificates, which I have photo copies of, that come directly from the last will and testement of Morihei Ueshiba Sensei both writen out to Mitose Masayoshi Sensei. One being an honorary 10th dan in Aikido, and the other being a formal request for Mitose to oversee all Aikido schools in the U.S. This is no bull. The official title in the "letter of request and favor" is "remonstrant of Aikido in America". These official certificates were writen by the hand of Koichi Tohei Sensei and witnessed by Fumio Toyota Sensei, who was his secretary at the time. This is something that has been swept under the carpet for years(not to mention very much down played). I only mention it in response to the idea that Mitose studied with Ueshiba. Mitose always claimed that he had great respect for Ueshiba. When asked about his relationship with O Sensei he replyed "we go to same church". This probably means that they both shared the same philosophy. Mitose never claimed to have studied with Ueshiba(What is True Self Defense Pg. 100).

In the mid 80's I had the pleasure of having a some what lengthy conversation with Toyota Sensei(GOD rest his soul) concerning this very story. At the time I was partners with Glen Webber Sensei in a dojo in Providence, RI. Glen would have Toyota Sensei in for seminars on a regular basis. To my surprise this is when I found out that he(Toyota) was right there as acting secratary under Tohei Sensei when the order to write them came from Japan. We joked about the huge ramifications of this title had it ever come be. There was no doubt to Toyota Sensei that this was a big deal and was absolutely supposed to happen. Of course only the highest ranked people in Aikido ever knew about it.

As a good and diligent student of Kosho Ryu, if James Mitose said that Ueshiba was a great man and a great master of Martial arts, thats enough for me. I'll do all that I can to learn as much about the man and his art as I can. After all, my teacher thought he was great then he must have been great. Obviously Morihei Ueshiba also thought that James Mitose was great. Shouldn't all Aikido practitioners then be seeking out James Mitose and his art to try and see just what their master saw in him and Kosho Ryu?

When you think about it, practically every person who ever sat in the presence of O Sensei has writen a book about it. Imagine the power that one could comand if Ueshiba had given those certificates to them!

Just a thought.

-Michael Brown

Yamantaka
27th August 2001, 13:42
Originally posted by komatsujin
There are in fact two certificates, which I have photo copies of, that come directly from the last will and testement of Morihei Ueshiba Sensei both writen out to Mitose Masayoshi Sensei. One being an honorary 10th dan in Aikido, and the other being a formal request for Mitose to oversee all Aikido schools in the U.S. This is no bull. The official title in the "letter of request and favor" is "remonstrant of Aikido in America". These official certificates were writen by the hand of Koichi Tohei Sensei and witnessed by Fumio Toyota Sensei, who was his secretary at the time.
-Michael Brown

YAMANTAKA : Could you send images of those certificates to this list? We would all be much interested in them.
Best

komatsujin
27th August 2001, 16:59
Hello Yamantaka,

First off, I'm not sure how to get the images onto the computor and further how to get them posted here. I'm still kind of new to this technology stuff. Second, etiquette wise, I would certainly have to clear it with Bruce Juchnik Hanshi. Although I do act as the de-facto historian for the Sei Kosho Shorei Kai I don't have the freedom to make available historical documents without permission first. Although it may not be a big deal to get permission from Jushnik Hanshi, certainly I'm sure he's going to wonder what would be the benefit of making these(Mitose Sensei's private documents) public property. In the past I have sent copies to both Meik Skoss of Koryu.com as well as to one of the big Aikido magazines(Aikido Today or maybe it was the Aikido journal). At any rate, Meik Skoss seemed to agree that they were both legit, although he questioned the degree of their weight(a valid question). As far as the magazine goes they too seemed to accept them as legit, but claimed that they wouldn't do any kind of write-up on it because they felt that it really didn't directly concern Aikido. (?) The validity of these documents can also be verified by Tohei Sensei, who not only wrote them, but also sealed them himself in accordence with the last will and testement of O Sensei.

I appologize that this answer doesn't quite satisfy. I'm just doing my job.

Respectfully,
-Michael Brown

MarkF
28th August 2001, 10:44
Hi, Michael,
Yamantaka asks because there has been much debated about Mitose, both good and bad, and would probably go a long way in satisfying some, and open up further discussion with others. If and when you do get permission, if you would simply like them posted with no remarks, you could do just as you said with Aikido Journal and send them to John Lindsey, the owner and administrator here.

As to the 'technology stuff' there are more than enough 'experts' to give you directions to do so on E-budo, I'm sure.:)

Mark

Mark Jakabcsin
28th August 2001, 14:05
Mr. Brown,

I am a little confused about the etiquette required to make the documents public. It seems that by posting these claims without an intention of providing some degree of proof was perhaps not the wisest course of action. Remember you are the one that posted the following:

"....I'm sure that I could shed some additional light on the subject as I am the one who has been spreding this ugly rumor. "

From this I understand that it is proper etiquette to post any 'ugly rumor' you wish without checking with anyone but when it comes to providing some degree of documentation you hide behind 'etiquette'.

Sorry, if this seems a little harsh, but it is fairly apparent to me from your second post that you have zero intention of posting any documents but will continue to spread your 'ugly rumor.' I really hope you do prove me wrong.

mark

komatsujin
28th August 2001, 18:51
Hello Mark,

You said
"I am a little confused about the etiquette required to make the documents public. It seems that by posting these claims without an intention of providing some degree of proof was perhaps not the wisest course of action."

- Perhaps you ARE a bit confused about etiquette. As I was given these photo copies of the originals in confidence and with certain rules to which I am bound. Perhaps you are not a member of a large organization, or a student of someone with whom you would like to stay. If that is the case then I completely understand.

As far as not providing some degree of proof. All the proof anyone needs is a simple phone call(or for that matter an e-mail). If you read the entire post you would find that there are a few,quite reputable, people who not only have seen them, but have been given copies. Assuming that yourself as well as others that I know in this forum have more than enough clought to do so, it would'nt take to much effort.

Or am I to assume that Meik Skoss, Aikido journal, Koichi Tohei, Fumio Toyota, or Roy Suenaka are insuficient proof for you?

"I really hope you do prove me wrong."
-Forgive me, but I really question sincerity of this statement. I think that you just really want to SEE these documents, and I don't blame you a bit. However, whether you understand it or not, their just not mine to spread around. It was not I who started this thread or for that matter ever intended to post on the "Aikido" forum, but when the question was raised it was my responsibility to respond.

Resectfuly,

-Michael Brown

R. Scherzinger
28th August 2001, 19:22
Mark,

While I believe that the term “ugly rumor” was meant in fun, not meant for literal translation. The title of remonstrant was given under Tohei Sensei’s recommendation to Mitose Sensei this was done to facilitate the expansion of Aikido, simple. As for your harshness I think it unwise to question Mike’s intent with regard to his need to inform his senior and/or get his permission to produce this documentation. This does not mean that you would be unable to get or see these documents it is just the channels you would have to follow to get them.

Mike’s senior may not want to get involved with the politics of the IAF or the Aikikai. If this is he case then Mike is founded in his comments to the effect “I have them, they do exist, but my teacher does not want me to give them out”. While I agree it would be easier to get them here on the net as opposed to having to contact the holders of the true documents. I would not blame anyone or at least question their sincerity for not e-publishing these documents in this forum.

Mark, I hope that Mike doesn’t prove you wrong. These documents can be obtained if you want them I am sure, but I think it would be imprudent of Mike and anyone for that matter to electronically publish this kind of document. As to whether Mike had the intent of deceiving members of e-budo my question would be, why? The documents were for a dead man and with that the SKSKI only holds them as a curiosity and uses them to understand Mitose Sensei and Ueshiba Osensei’s relationship.

and on we go……

Mark Jakabcsin
28th August 2001, 19:28
"Perhaps you ARE a bit confused about etiquette. As I was given these photo copies of the originals in confidence and with certain rules to which I am bound. Perhaps you are not a member of a large organization, or a student of someone with whom you would like to stay. If that is the case then I completely understand. "

Mr. Brown,
You misunderstood my comment about etiquette. Since my implication was misunderstood I will spell it out. You make 'ugly rumors' about documents that are not yours to freely make public but feel you can publically discuss. As you pointed out you are bound in confidence which I fully understand. What I don't understand and what I find as a breach of etiquette or at the least poor judgement is your need to discuss said documents in public. You obviously don't feel that this confidence and rules percludes you from public statements which just amazes me. You stated that when the question was brought up it was your responsibility to respond. Since you don't have the right to the documents you likewise don't have the responsibility to respond. I believe the correct action would have been to refer the matter to whomever does have the right to the documents and allow them to respond or not.

As far as who you have sent the documents to and what their thoughts on the matter are, I have no idea. Since all we have here is your thoughts about what others think it really is meaningless. Hopefully Meik Skoss or someone else will care to comment.

Personally, I don't care to see the documents, I am sure they would be meaningless to me. My point in the orginal post is that to make a claim such as yours knowing that you could not back it up is nothing short of gossip. You knew you didn't have the right to post documents but you discussed them anyway. The claim of documentation that never appear is a recurring theme for many in the martial arts world. When asked, the majority hide behind etiquette, need-to-know, I don't have to prove anything, etc., they talk the talk but don't have the goods. If you do have the goods do youself a favor and provide them. The risk is being lumped in with those that only have the talk.

mark

Yamantaka
28th August 2001, 21:17
Originally posted by komatsujin
Hello Mark,

- Perhaps you ARE a bit confused about etiquette. As I was given these photo copies of the originals in confidence and with certain rules to which I am bound. Perhaps you are not a member of a large organization, or a student of someone with whom you would like to stay. If that is the case then I completely understand.
If you read the entire post you would find that there are a few,quite reputable, people who not only have seen them, but have been given copies. Assuming that yourself as well as others that I know in this forum have more than enough clought to do so, it would'nt take to much effort.
Or am I to assume that Meik Skoss, Aikido journal, Koichi Tohei, Fumio Toyota, or Roy Suenaka are insuficient proof for you?
-Michael Brown

YAMANTAKA : Of course, you have every right to not post anything in this Forum. But it seems strange that those documents were showed (and even given copies) to many people and to popular magazines.
Best

Don Cunningham
28th August 2001, 22:33
I don't know anything about the etiquette involved in showing or not showing these documents. Without reason to believe otherwise, I am willing to take Michael Brown's word that the documents exist.

What really floors me, though, is that Morihei Ueshiba sensei saw enough in James Mitose, a convicted extortionist and murderer, to even consider giving him any kind of certificate or honoring him in any way. Until this time, I had nothing but respect for aikido and the philosophy behind it.

If the founder of aikido didn't have the insight to see what kind of person James Mitose was, a man who extorted money from senior citizens and then sent his own student to murder them with a screwdriver and rope, then what does that say about his other revelations? And why in the world would Ueshiba sensei's senior students not revoke such certificates or ranks after James Mitose was convicted of such heinous crimes?

It's bad enough that there are still those who respect James Mitose enough to continue training in his style. It's bad enough that his accomplice and also a convicted murderer, Nimr R. Hassan aka Terry Lee is still teaching martial arts. Now I guess I need to rethink my opinion regarding aikido and Ueshiba sensei as well.

Karl Kuhn
29th August 2001, 00:39
"Now I guess I need to rethink my opinion regarding aikido and Ueshiba sensei as well."

Oh, come on. Don't you think that's a little much?

Mike Collins
29th August 2001, 01:39
There is rumored to be another version of the story Don refers to in his post. I wasn't there, and I have no opinion, but Mitose's character, though questionable, is at least to some extent, not clearly good or bad. Like so many things in this universe, the truth is in the eye of the beholder.

Whether or not Ueshiba Osensei gave Mitose any kind of standing or status is, I think, moot. If he did it prior to his(Ueshiba Osensei's) death (And if it was done, it seems to me that would be kind of necessary), Mitose had some time to make hay with it, and didn't. Since he either didn't try, or tried and failed, it seems like a good bet to me that it simply doesn't matter.

If, however, he did it after his death, well that's a different thing altogether. (okay, see thats a joke)

Point is, Mitose is Kenpo (Kempo, whichever is correct, no disrespect intended), not Aikido. This is simply defacto truth.

So what difference does all of the hoohaw about certificates make? Apparently Osensei had little esteem for titles, grades, ranks etcetera except for the sake of making those to whom they were distributed happy.

If Mitose made it up, and forged them, so what? If Osensei gave him rank, so what?

Why don't we all just go on our merry way, and realize that both were a bit eccentric and possibly one was a bit darker than just eccentric?

Last I heard there was no plan afoot to make Ueshiba Osensei an official deity or saint. He was a man. Men do things which are hard for other people to explain (Otherwise, please explain grown men collecting baseball cards)

Don, your comments were, in my opinion, harsh and inflammatory. More respectful tones are called for hereabouts.

PRehse
29th August 2001, 02:19
Oh God help us - Aikido is slipping into the realm of bad budo.

The bunny has spoken.




Originally posted by Karl Kuhn
"Now I guess I need to rethink my opinion regarding aikido and Ueshiba sensei as well."

Oh, come on. Don't you think that's a little much?

Don Cunningham
29th August 2001, 02:30
There is rumored to be another version of the story Don refers to in his post. I wasn't there, and I have no opinion, but Mitose's character, though questionable, is at least to some extent, not clearly good or bad. Like so many things in this universe, the truth is in the eye of the beholder.
The followers of Mitose have tried everything to change history regarding this murder. Read the accounts. It's all there. Yes, there is no trial transcript, but that is not unusual. Trial transcripts are only made if the defendant pays for them, and that generally only happens if they plan an appeal. Not so in this case.

The bottomline, minus the rumors circulated by Mitose's supporters, is that a 27-year-old Mr. Hassan, then known simply known as Terry Lee and fresh out of the U.S. Marine Corps stabbed Frank Namimatsu, 61, to death and nearly killed Toshiko Namimatsu because they refused to pay extortion money to his martial arts instructor, James Mitose. He was acting on Mitose's direct orders, and both were tried and convicted for the crimes.

Mitose was in deep trouble following statements from another senior citizen, Osamu Goeku, who claimed he had been held hostage and beaten by Mitose until paying nearly $30,000 in extortion. After Namimatsu reported similar threats to the Los Angeles district attorney, Mitose ordered his disciple to take action. Upon entering their home, Lee encountered the elderly Toshiko Namimatsu and stabbed her repeatedly with a screwdriver given to him by Mitose. Then leaving her for dead, Lee found Frank Namimatsu and killed him. Toshiko miraculously survived the savage attack. Lee was arrested the next day, and Mitose was arrested shortly afterwards.

I've read the fictional accounts and theories presented by William Durbin and others, and I'm not buying any of it. I was a crime reporter in Texas for years, and I think I know when there is something more and when there isn't. In the eye of this beholder, Mitose and Lee are simply evil.

In my opinion, the revisionists who try so hard to whitewash Mitose's crimes are an insult to the Namimatsu's surviving children. Where is the respect in that?

All the conspiracy stories aside, the fact is that Mitose was an heartless extortionist who ordered the cold-blooded killing of two senior citizens. I hope that in comparison my post of this fact is not too "harsh and inflammatory" for everyone else.

Reference: Case #A-306967, Los Angeles County Superior Court (Verdict date: 9/16/74)

JimmyCrow
29th August 2001, 03:16
I think it was this statement...

“Now I guess I need to rethink my opinion regarding aikido and Ueshiba sensei as well.”

..that Mr. Collins found "harsh and inflammatory."

Most Aikido practioners will probably take offense to anything that paints Ueshiba in a negative light.

PRehse
29th August 2001, 03:45
Originally posted by JimmyCrow
Most Aikido practioners will probably take offense to anything that paints Ueshiba in a negative light.

A lot but not all.

A good chunk of us are fascinated by the man and his interaction with contemporaries, Mitose included. Personally I find no need to abscribe Sainthood to any martial artist - Ueshiba included. In fact to do so would deny who he really was.

What is clear is that a significant number of top martial artists where not monks. Some lived and played quite hard and then calmed down when their bodies could not take it anymore. I really can not see how a conviction detracts from Mitose's ability as a MA or the value of what he taught.

By the way whose word do you take - your friends or that of a foreign state.

komatsujin
29th August 2001, 04:04
Hey Donn,

Well I guess there's no question were you stand on the matter is there. You seem to have done a little home work,and I stress the word little. By the way the entire transcript is available and can be found at the county clerks office in L.A. I not only posses it , but I also posses certainly the most extensive collection of leagal, and official documents not to mention personal letters, copies of certificates, letters from the warden of Folsum prison,as well as Mitose's own lawyer among other things, and yea I also have these certificates from Ueshiba that got this whole thing started.

Although I don't blame you for feeling the way that you do, as a matter of fact I completely understand. However, with regards to this issue, the only thing that makes you even worse than most people who don't know anything about it is the fact that you know a little bit about it. You let that little bit that you know shape your entire oppinion, not only of Mitose, but also of anyone who would practice his art.

It's not my job to defend Mitose, hek I would'nt let him date my sister either,but as far as I'm concernd it doesn't matter to me if Mitose was abel or not to live up the ideals of his own art form. As far as I can tell I'm in good company, because Mitose not only fooled me,but he also fooled; Morihei Ueshiba, Gogen Yamaguchi, the prime minister of Japan, Dwight Eisenhower, and numerous other people all of whom must be (according to you) poor judges of character.

It might surprise you to know that you would be hard pressed to find any koryu whos founder was an innocent man. Most were guilty of many things including murder. Hayashizaki Jinsuke Shigenobu himself founded the Shimmei Muso Ryu, and subsequently every art that branched from it, based on a vendetta. Dare I say even Sokaku Takeda himself was almost deffinitely guilty of killing numerous people during his lifetime.

We're not following the man, but his teachings.

JimmyCrow
29th August 2001, 04:09
I completely agree with your post Peter. I was trying to make the point that O'sensei was just a man and capable of mistakes. I find it a little preposterous to assume that he could tell if a man was going to turn to a life of crime in the future. Then again I am not that familiar with the background of James Mitose or his criminal activities at the time he knew O'sensei.

If I may ask a question. When did James Mitose first meet O'sensei, and where? If it was mentioned in the post above I must have missed it. Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks

Don Cunningham
29th August 2001, 05:18
We're not following the man, but his teachings.
That's probably the most scary thing I've seen here on e-Budo.

I remember another quote that goes something like, "We were only following orders."

So Hitler was a pretty good national leader, too. At least, he got the German economy back on its feet and people went back to work. He also "fooled" a few notables about his good intentions in his time as well.

As for Mitose, you're probably right. What's the murder of a old farmer anyway? No one probably really cares all that much about a 60-year-old woman stabbed numerous times in her own home either. Let's only consider all the good things James Mitose did during his lifetime?

Just what were the good things he did again?

Oh yeah, you may not realize this, but there is a great deal different about someone who participates in a vendetta, a war, a civil uprising, stuff like that and someone who robs and beats old people and then has them brutally murdered for money. While we're at it, though, you might consider all the good things Al Capone and John Getti did, too. Maybe you might want to hero worship them as well.

PRehse
29th August 2001, 05:56
Jimmy;

I share both your curiosity and your lack of knowledge. More info from those that have it - please.

Donn;

Where are you coming from? I know many men I don't follow - but from whom I have learnt something. I see no problem in learning the Kempo of the guy without adopting his tactics in dealing with debtors just as I have no problem in learning Aikido without adopting some of the more wishy washy religious views of Ueshiba.

Those who wish to learn how to fight don't look for those who never have.

Don Cunningham
29th August 2001, 06:53
Peter,

If you don't know now, then you probably never will. Any explanation I could provide would just be wasted.

PRehse
29th August 2001, 07:33
Donn;

All I saw is a distortion of a simple comment into something quite ludicrous.

Personally I laud the efforts to expose the false gods of Budo, at the very least its entertaining. Yet now you are questioning Aikido because of an association with a man who was convicted of a crime five years after Ueshiba died????

I am getting the distict impression that you are judging the quality of a Budo based on your own value judgements. Well Ueshiba associated with war criminals - including teaching at the Nagano school for spies. Kuni Zanya and several other MAs were members of extreme right wing organizations. Political organizations often sponsered martial art schools to provide muscle which could be used for anything from intimidation to assasination. You don't have to go very far to uncover less than savory aspects of MA history. Are these then all bad budo?

Karl Kuhn
29th August 2001, 09:04
Mr. Cunningham,

There you go, drag Hitler into it, sure way to sell your point.

Really, man, I have enjoyed your crusades against the wackos that you have persued and think you've done a great bit of service. I commend you on your perservance in engaging these scam artist wackos and it's given me a great deal of chuckles (mostly in their replies, but some of your barbs are pretty tight).

I know nothing of Kempo and only a scattershot of all the drama surrounding Mitose, but to lay blame (in less than veiled contempt) on an old man who met this guy and thought he had some skill is the sloppiest of thinking. Really, you've presented some interesting and valid arguments and this line of thinking does not serve you well.

I'm with Peter when he points to the real world politic surrounding the development of Budo. It's not all pretty, man. And why shoul it be? This ain't the history of square dancing we're talking about................

Also, as I Chicagoan I don't think Capone is dismissible. There was some real value brought to the community he served (ever see the tunnel from the Green Mill to the Aragon he built?) in the war against prohibition.

Peace,

PRehse
29th August 2001, 09:39
Hi Karl;

Well in 2 seconds I'm off to my last training session at Honbu. Three months in Osaka have been great but tomorrow I return to the real world. Hope to see you in October.

If what I do is bad budo - so be it.

MarkF
29th August 2001, 10:57
Originally posted by PRehe
Kuni Zanya and several other MAs were members of extreme right wing organizations. Political organizations often sponsered martial art schools to provide muscle which could be used for anything from intimidation to assasination. You don't have to go very far to uncover less than savory aspects of MA history. Are these then all bad budo?


The organizations? The family lineage? The five families may have to "go to the mattresses" becas' of all dis killing. It isn't good for any of da familes, dis war. Why can't we be civil about dis, and let utters lose der soles.
****

Sorry, I couldn't help it.

Mark

P Goldsbury
29th August 2001, 14:09
[QUOTE]Originally posted by R. Scherzinger
[B]Mark,

This does not mean that you would be unable to get or see these documents it is just the channels you would have to follow to get them.

Mike’s senior may not want to get involved with the politics of the IAF or the Aikikai. If this is he case then Mike is founded in his comments to the effect “I have them, they do exist, but my teacher does not want me to give them out. While I agree it would be easier to get them here on the net as opposed to having to contact the holders of the true documents. I would not blame anyone or at least question their sincerity for not e-publishing these documents in this forum.

==========

I had not encountered the name of James Mitose until I read this thread. However, the IAF was mentioned in the above post and I want to stress that I am not interested in "aikido politics". However, as a matter of truth and aikido history, I am very interested in receiving copies of the two documents referred to by Mike Brown in his earlier post. The relevant e-mail address is pagolds@hiroshima-u.ac.jp and my fax number is Int code + 81-82-211-1955. Of course, the documents will be confidential unless permissin is granted to publish them.

Yours sincerely,

Peter Goldsbury,
_____________
P A Goldsbury, Ph.D,
(1) Chairman,
Interational Aikido Federation;
(2) Professor,
Graduate School of Social Sciences,
Hiroshima University

PS. This post was not intended simply as a request to be sent the documents. If someone wuld be kind enough to give me the relevant fax / e-mail addresses I will make the request individually, in Japanese if necessary.

Don Cunningham
29th August 2001, 14:22
Maybe my comment about aikido was a bit strong. I was being sarcastic about the founder who consider his art to be something gentle.

As for James Mitose, I heard the same arguments about John Elton Lamont. "So what if he raped a couple of little girls? He was a great martial artist and 5th dan in aikido." The truth is that I had seen John teach and he was mediocre at best. He bought his aikido ranking from the AAA. And I don't care if he was kind to orphans and never kicked dogs, a pedophile is still repugnant. A pedophile predator is dangerous and should be monitored.

John served his time as well and is teaching aikido again in North Carolina. He has that right. He is also telling people that he was either (1) set up for his conviction or (2) his incarceration was only a cover while he was really serving his country and running counter-terrorist missions in South America.

I think your revisionist view of James Mitose is nothing more than the same thing John Lamont and his followers are doing. If you say it enough and point to a few "suspicious" circumstances, a certain number of others will begin to think there may be some truth to your conspiracy stories. Your assumption that I only know a bit of the truth is another false logic ploy to lend credence to that which you apparently need to believe in so strongly.

I've read some of Mitose's work. So he could box and grapple, so what? I've seen better from third-year judoka. Kenpo or kempo has been around for a long time. Mitose was just another exponent who took advantage of it. He took advantage of a lot of things.

I meant no disrespect to any of those who teach his art. I never said or implied that those who study kenpo/kempo are endorsing the killing of senior citizens. It's just your way of adding fuel to your own argument by trying to ridicule my point. Unfortunately, it doesn't change the truth. James Mitose was a thug, simple as that. Your desire to worship this fantasy created around him is something I don't understand and never will.

There are those who also admire Hitler. They dress up in Nazi uniforms and march through the streets of Skokie every now and then. They're still idiots in my opinion, but I support their right to free speech. They also claim that we "have not taken the time to study his teachings." Their attempts to rewrite history and claim the holocaust was only "one aspect of his life" is not that much different than what you and other researchers like William Durbin are attempting now with Mitose's story. I support your right to free speech as well, but don't condemn me for presenting the other side of the coin.

[As a resident of Chicago's western suburbs, I know Al did a lot for the city. He built orphanages, gave money to the church, etc. I still think it's wrong, though, that the little good he did was from the proceeds of prostitution, illegal liquor, extortion, and murder. He was only convicted of tax evasion, after all. Maybe we should erect a statute in his honor?]

komatsujin
29th August 2001, 19:28
Hi Kevin,

Mr. Cunninghams views are so fixed that no amount of explination in the world let alone proof, logic, reason etc..would convince him.

Don't waste your time with these kind of arguments. They don't go anywhere.

"Never acknowledge stupidity or it becomes a form of wisdom"

-James Mitose

"Never argue with a fool, for he may be doing the same thing"

-Bruce Juchnik

On with another topic.

-Michael Brown

Don Cunningham
29th August 2001, 20:22
During the communist scare of the '50s, the person most responsible and then congressman Joseph McCarthy used to point to his bulging briefcase and state, "In here I have irrefutable proof that [insert name] is a communist." A large part of the American public then believed that he really had this evidence. Of course he never had to actually show it. It didn't even exist.

Michael is using the same tactic here in reverse. He states that he has extensive "evidence" which refutes my statements about Mitose and his crime. Yet it seems that after a review of all the posts so far, I am the only one who has presented any objective details. I've provided hard, cold facts. All I've read from these clowns are a bunch of subjective opinions they have about the founder of their particular martial art. (Oh yeah, some other stuff about how little I must really know about the entire affair, again an assumption made with no basis.) Mr. Brown has certainly provided no "proof, logic, reason" here that refutes anything negative I've written about Mitose's character.

Personally, I prefer facts to opinions. In my experience, opinions are like something else everyone has. Actually, this anatomical reference seems doubly appropriate for Mitose's followers.

komatsujin
29th August 2001, 20:36
Mr. Cunigham,

You wouldn't know proof it it bit you on the thing that describes you quite well too.

You apparently havn't been hearing a word we've been saying either. You just keep on grouping us wtih people who deny everything that you've said and we keep on saying that we don't. We just continue to practice the art. I think that this crusader thing has truly gone to your head. How many people have to tell you this before you stop and think before you post? You want to argue so much that you don't even hear when people are not arguing back. Your like a one man band.

Why am I doing exactly what I warned Kevin not to do, oh my GOD I've been sucked into his game too.

I think I'm done now.

Love always,
Michael Brown

Kaijin
29th August 2001, 21:34
All the conspiracy stories aside, the fact is that Mitose was an heartless extortionist who ordered the cold-blooded killing of two senior citizens. I hope that in comparison my post of this fact is not too "harsh and inflammatory" for everyone else.

Mr. Cunningham:

Facts typically do not contain unsubstantiated adjectives. If you feel personally about this issue and feel the need to express yourself, then the correct term is "opinion". I find it interesting that you use the phrases "conspiracy stories aside" and "cold-blooded killing" in the same sentence, and not realize how ridiculous you sound. No offense intended, but perhaps your experiences in the media have comprimised your objectivity and critical thinking?

Perhaps we need to step back and determine what the goal of this discussion is. I believe that the exchange of facts is paramount. Therefore, I might suggest that opinions, hearsay, and undocumented information not be emphasized in this thread. It would be unwise to take this medium so seriously - be careful. This amounts to no more than a conversation on a windy day - pomp and circumstance signifying nothing.

I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you have actually read the document known as "Reference: Case #A-306967, Los Angeles County Superior Court (Verdict date: 9/16/74)". I have not, personally. Neither have I read the official transcript of that case; a document of some several thousand pages. I will also assume that these two documents are not one in the same, although perhaps someone will correct me.

In summary, it is my wish to see this discussion continue in the spirit of friendly discourse. If it does not - that will be fine, too. But I will not listen.

- James Leatherman

Simon D
29th August 2001, 21:50
Thanks James, A cool calm voice on a windy day :look:

JimmyCrow
29th August 2001, 22:05
For those of you not familiar with Don, I can assure you this is only the calm before the storm.:look:

Mike Collins
29th August 2001, 23:09
I feel compelled to re-ask the question- Who the hell cares?????

Mitose may or may not have been a bad man.

People who study Kenpo are probably not a cadre of trained rope and screwdriver murderers (and by the way, what is that about? is there a secret Japanese rope and screwdriver jutsu I haven't previously heard of?)

The man's been dead for what, like 25 years? Osensei's been dead for 32 years.

It's the art. Not the guy. Let them train, we'll train, let's discuss something of substance. Or let's discuss this like normal decent people who can respect our differences.

If your opinion, Don, is that Kosho Shorei Kempo is Bad Budo, take the issue there and make hay.

Don Cunningham
29th August 2001, 23:48
There is rumored to be another version of the story Don refers to in his post...Mitose's character, though questionable, is at least to some extent, not clearly good or bad. Like so many things in this universe, the truth is in the eye of the beholder. Mike Collins, posted 08-28-2001 07:39 PM

I feel compelled to re-ask the question- Who the hell cares????? Mike Collins, posted 08-29-2001 05:09 PM

Mike,

If you don't care, then why did you make a vague reference about other circumstances or another possible version of events which might show Mitose may not have been such a bad guy after all? If you got it, then show it to us all. However, don't dismiss my version with some vague rambling and no proof.


However, with regards to this issue, the only thing that makes you even worse than most people who don't know anything about it is the fact that you know a little bit about it. You let that little bit that you know shape your entire oppinion, not only of Mitose, but also of anyone who would practice his art.Michael Brown, posted 08-28-2001 10:04 PM

You just keep on grouping us wtih people who deny everything that you've said and we keep on saying that we don't.Michael Brown, posted 08-29-2001 02:36 PM

Michael,

If I'm "grouping" you with those who deny the facts about Mitose, it's because you deny the facts about Mitose. You claim that I only "know a little bit about it," yet you haven't given us one thing to dispute the version as presented.


Facts typically do not contain unsubstantiated adjectives.James Leatherman, posted 08-29-2001 03:34 PM

James,

I quite agree with you. However, the quote you cited is not the only "facts" referred to in my earlier post. It was of course some opinion and not "unsubstantiated" as you suggest. My opinions or adjectives as you refer to them were based on the following facts:

1. James Mitose was thug who extorted money from senior citizens, according to Osamu Goeku, who claimed he was held hostage and beaten until paying nearly $30,000 in extortion.

2. Frank Namimatsu, 61, made a similar complaint about Mitose to the Los Angeles district attorney's office.

3. Mitose ordered his disciple Terry Lee, 27, to murder Frank and Toshiko Namimatsu.

4. Lee broke into their home and stabbed the pair of senior citizens with a screwdriver given to him by Mitose specifically for this purpose. Lee killed Frank Namimatsu and left Toshiko Namimatsu for dead.

5. Toshiko Namimatsu clearly identified Lee as the assailant.

6. Mitose and Lee were both tried and convicted for this crime in Case #A-306967, Los Angeles County Superior Court (Verdict date: 9/16/74).

These are facts. I have not read one single fact which disputes any of these known facts, certainly not any from Michael Brown. However, you are quite welcome to stick your head back into the sand or your fingers in your ears or cover your eyes, whichever you prefer.

You wouldn't know proof it it bit you on the thing that describes you quite well too.Michael Brown, posted 08-29-2001 02:36 PM

Michael,

Obviously it isn't me that doesn't know what proof is or isn't in this case. You haven't provided one single shred of evidence or even a good theory so far. Evidently you don't have the intelligence to distinguish the difference. The fact that you claim not to care either way while ranting like this just shows you're a fool as well.

Karl Kuhn
30th August 2001, 00:15
Mr. Cunningham,

In your post that began "Maybe my comment about aikido was a bit strong........" you make some peculiar allegations that I can only assume are aimed at me, being that you close with a comment about Capone from my prior post.

In your comparison of Mitose and Lamont and Hitler you state "I think your revisionist view of James Mitose is nothing more than the same thing John Lamont and his followers are doing". As I have stated before I know very little about this case and I do not apreciate your comments.

If, in fact, you are responding to multiple posts, may I suggest you be more careful in your writing. I'm starting develop a very different profile of you.....

Mike Collins
30th August 2001, 00:50
Don,

Your paranoia is acting up again. (At least that's what we who are after you, want you to believe)

I made the "vague reference" that I did in the interest of not stepping so blithely on the toes of others. I can see you have no such compunctions, and feel it is within your purview to be rude to damn near anyone.

You don't need to be rude and coarse, to stand up for good ethics. Don't pick on me, I'm not too polite to tell you which lake or up whose arse to jump in.

This is just an internet forum for conversation. Be nice. You aint in a court of law, you're supposed to be among friends. (even if you disagree with some of your friends)

Don Cunningham
30th August 2001, 02:13
You don't need to be rude and coarse, to stand up for good ethics. Don't pick on me, I'm not too polite to tell you which lake or up whose arse to jump in.
Mike,

When was I ever rude or coarse?


If, in fact, you are responding to multiple posts, may I suggest you be more careful in your writing. I'm starting develop a very different profile of you.....
Karl,

Who cares what you think of me or what kind of profile you're developing? 'Cause I certainly don't.

Karl Kuhn
30th August 2001, 02:26
Don,

Thanks for clearing that up. Welcome to the killfile with the rest of the loons.

komatsujin
30th August 2001, 03:53
Hello again Don,

You're doing a great job at making friends I see. Anyways, think what you want about me, but truth to be told I usually like what you have to say, I don't always agree with it(perhaps it's your delivery method more then anything else), but at least there seems to be a moral streak in your argument somewhere. I know that you think that I'm just some bleeding heart Kosho guy who will hear nothing negative about Mitose, but everyone who knows me knows that, that is not true.

If I'm a good judge of character,and I think that I am, I'll bet money that you're not nearly as bad a guy as you try so hard to make yourself out to be.

My fingers and hands are starting bother me with all this typing nonsence.

All foolishness and name calling aside, I would love to sit down with you face to face over coffe(I'll even buy) I am also a very good cook. We'll talk, eat, and drink coffe as long as it takes. We'll shake hands when we meet, and we'll shake hands when it's over like men.

We'll handle it just like a court case. Bring all of your evidence or what ever you need to make your case, and I'll do the same. In the end I may not be able to convince you of anything, but that's alright, however I can garantee that you will realize that there is a much stronger argument on the other side then you originaly thought. Of course whether you admit it or not is another story. Any paperwork that you now have I certainly have had for many years, so because all you're doing is quoting from these papers there is nothing new on your end that I havn't seen a thousand times.

Again, think what you want about me, but believe it or not I am church going, GOD fearing man,who is faithful to his wife, and absolutely adores his 9 month old daughter. I don't cheat, steal or lie and I try not to cuss too.

I don't know how realistic it is for us to actually make this happen,but the truth is typing out my arguments is just not my style. I don't type well, my spelling and grammer are terrible, and I just don't have the time.

I'm sure you don't care, but I really don't hate you.

-Michael Brown

Kaijin
30th August 2001, 04:41
Sensei Brown -

<i>(Nice application of four-wall concept.)</i>

I would like to begin this post by apologizing for my ego. In replying to certain postings, I was in actuality attempting to demonstrate logical and moral superiority over certain members of our discussion. I can see now that I was in error, and humbly ask to have these comments disregarded. Gomen nasai.

As to our topic: I would like to know more on the philosophical and functional connections between Aikido and Kosho Ryu that would elucidate the kind of synergy that we see today, and in Mitose's time. What was it that was seen as commonalities?

- James Leatherman

<i>"The moralist is the person who tells people that they ought to be unselfish, when they still feel like egos, and his efforts are always and invariably futile. Because what happens is he simply sweeps the dust under the carpet, and it all comes back again somehow."

- Alan Watts</i>

Don Cunningham
30th August 2001, 07:08
Michael,

I never wrote or meant to imply that you're not a great guy, wonderful husband and father, good neighbor, pillar of the community. I'm sure you are. I have nothing but what you've written here upon which to judge your character. That is certainly not enough evidence to even begin to make such a value judgment. That's not my point here at all. Never was.

If you have something which you want to share which might give me or any other rational person the slightest doubt about Mitose's negative character, then post it. If you have a theory, a bit of unreleased information, even a rumor, then put it up here. Otherwise, don't dismiss my opinion about this convicted murderer as uneducated or uninformed when it is definitely, irrefutably substantiated by all the known facts.

(If you don't want to type it, then give me a call. If there is any substance to what you have to say, then I'll type it and post it for you.)

If you really have read all the stuff about Mitose, then I am sure you're aware of the articles written by William Durbin. In an self-serving effort to whitewash Nimr Hassan's previous crimes, he has proposed such "facts" as Terry Lee's statement that he has no recollection of the murder. According to this dim bulb, this lack of recall is supposedly something which sheds new light on the subject and maybe introduces other suspects. It may sound silly to most that secret ninjas really killed Frank, but he pretty much implies such baloney. Unfortunately, there is a certain percentage who read that crud and believe it. If you're also suggesting ninjas were the real murderers because of some Japanese vendetta, please don't waste my time. This kind of stuff is just plain insulting.

As for Karl, you really are an arrogant prick. I really don't care what you think. Never did.

Simon D
30th August 2001, 11:45
Originally posted by JimmyCrow
For those of you not familiar with Don, I can assure you this is only the calm before the storm.:look:

Hehe - you weren't joking ! You certainly drew him out there :) deary me .

Don, please tell us, I've seen your site with the "Budo QuackWatch" - why are you so hot to "expose the charlatans"? - Did you have a bad experience ??


Simon Deering

michi
30th August 2001, 13:32
:cry: I've spent some time reading all this crap and my God, how ignorant I am! For years I've been thinking that aikido makes people more gentle, more able to look at things from the other (ones) side. Unfortunately I find out more and more that it isn't so. Although not for many people. Many of the people joining in this thread are verbally 'blocking attacks' instead of going with the flow. Very un-aiki. It's more like boxing or karate. Nothing wrong with those martial arts but I've always been thinking that aikido is more subtle, more sophisticated and that those qualifications should also be reflected in the way aikidoka's communicate and how and where they stand in life...

Sjoerd Vermeulen

Kaijin
30th August 2001, 13:49
Mr. Cunningham -

Gomen nasai, but I feel I must tell you something, since it may not be obvious to you. I do not believe that you are welcome anymore on this thread. It would seem that, although you obviously have studied dilligently, you unfortunately do not posess the character necessary to be a contributing member of this very small group. I sincerely wish that you could be.

Although I am not a practitioner of Aikido, it seems that you are doing more harm than good to this branch of MA. I would humbly advise you to desist with this combative attitude. I might suggest a Ki-gon would help you maintain your center, and prevent these sorts of mistakes from happening.

There are many here who are truly not attempting to posture and who are students of human nature, dynamics and consequently martial arts. Many of them do not feel the passion for combat that you seem to display. Also, many of them realize that this particular thread amounts to nothing. Do you realize this?

I am embarassed to admit that my ire has been sparked by this altercation. Perhaps Mr. Cunningham will reply again and further his self-depreciating. I am not certain how I will then react. It would seem to make more sense to simply ignore such trivailities. However, I actually was hoping to continue the original discussion of this thread. I believe that if others in this discussion agree, it might be proper to have Mr. Cunningham removed.

Sjoerd -

I sincerely apologize for the conduct of Mr. Cunningham. I do not think that he is representative of the Aikido populace. Aiki practitioners that I am fortunate enough to know are humble, open-minded individuals who quikly assimilate new knowledge without prejudice. I have been duly impressed. Do not pass judgement on an entire populace due to the behavior of one small man, I beg you.

Now, to Brown Sensei - (Barring interruption)

I would like to know more on the philosophical and functional connections between Aikido and Kosho Ryu that would elucidate the kind of synergy that we see today, and in Mitose's time. What was it that was seen as commonalities?

- James Leatherman

Don Cunningham
30th August 2001, 14:16
Kaijin [James],

You're pretty darn arrogant to think that you speak for everyone else. And you didn't sign your name, either. Review the forum rules, then come here and preach to me some more. Please don't apologize for me, though, especially when there is nothing to apologize for.

[Added note: James at least got the message and edited in his name.]

All,

I apologize for Kaijin [James]. He's still new and doesn't yet understand that the world doesn't revolve around him. He apparently believes that his opinions and desires form the center of the universe.

Simon,

You obviously have mistaken me for Jeff Boler. He is the person behind Budo Quackwatch. I just wrote a couple of articles about some real nut cases.

Finally, to everyone else,

After a thorough review of all my posts on this thread, I've come to the conclusion that I have absolutely nothing to apologize for. All I did was present some facts and my opinion, which were then disputed and flamed for apparently self-serving reasons.

Anyway, I've played with the village idiots long enough, so I bid you all adieu, at least for this particular thread.

Simon D
30th August 2001, 14:27
Originally posted by Don Cunningham

You obviously have mistaken me for Jeff Boler. He is the person behind Budo Quackwatch. I just wrote a couple of articles about some real nut cases.

I read your articles Don :) - just wondered what inspired you. ("Quackwatch" is also the most prominent thing on your frontpage )

Simon Deering

Kaijin
30th August 2001, 14:39
Mr. Cunningham -

Thank you for noticing that I did not sign my reply. I made the appropriate change. My assumption was that it was relatively easy to determine who I was, seeing as how I already have several of my signatures on this post. I acknowledge that this was a mistake. Gomen.

Also, let me apologize for giving the appearance of speaking for all thead members. I assure you that I did not mean to do this. Yes, it is quite arrogant - I humbly ask that you disregard. Additionally, I sincerely detest preaching, and I thank you for your frankness. However, I have searched myself and my postings - and I did not notice any pontification. Might you point it out for me, kudasai?

Respectfully,

- James Leatherman

EDIT: Sorry, I did not realize that Mr. Cunningham had left. I wish to thank him for his passion, and thank him for gracefully bowing out.

Kaijin
30th August 2001, 14:45
Brown Sensei and Others -

Sorry if I am repeating myself, but I am quite interested in this topic of discussion.

I would like to know more on the philosophical and functional connections between Aikido and Kosho Ryu that would elucidate the kind of synergy that we see today, and in Mitose's time. What was it that was seen as commonalities?

- James Leatherman

komatsujin
30th August 2001, 18:39
Hello James,

You asked;
"I would like to know more on the philosophical and functional connections between Aikido and Kosho Ryu"...and" What was it that was seen as commonalities? "

Unfortunately, all I can do hear is speculate and give my humble opinion. I say my humble opinion because to answer any other way would be to imply that I knew something about aikido which I don't.

The man who truly would be best at answering your question, would have to be Rem Sherzinger, who is not only well versed in Kosho, but Aikido as well.

Thanks again, and keep the questions coming!

-Michael Brown

BC
30th August 2001, 20:50
Let's just make it clear that Mr. Cunningham is a judoka, not a practitioner of aikido. For whatever that's worth.

Regarding the connections or similarities between aikido and kosho ryu...I practiced Parker kenpo for several years before beginning aikido. Although I understand that there is some difference between kenpo and kosho ryu, there are most likely some similarities as well. From what I remember, one common aspect of both aikido and kenpo is utilizing the attacker's own energy to neutralize or defeat them. Another is kuzushi, or breaking the attacker's balance. Whether or not Morihei Ueshiba Sensei and Mr. Mitose saw this is mere conjecture and speculation on my part. IMHO.

-Robert Cronin

Kaijin
30th August 2001, 21:12
Mr. Cronin -

Thank you for your reply. I am definitely interested in your experiences from the Ed Parker side of the family.

You mentioned "using the attackers own energy" and "breaking the attacker's balance." Yes, these are definitely aspects of Kosho. Position, timing and accuracy, when used against an rapidly advancing attacker, will allow a stationary hand to become a strike of incredible speed. Additionally, we are taught to move when the opponent is "weightless", or off balance. For both, there is some pretty serious timing involved. I'll let you know when I get some... :)

Additionally, we study how the body folds and rotates, and how influencing rotation can cause skeletal freezes, throws, strikes, etc. So I guess you could generalize this as studying human dynamics. Every class is a scavenger hunt of commonality of movement and principle. (That's why I have fun, at least.)

I suppose I would have to ask how this compares to teachings in both Ed Parker Kempo and Aikido. I really look forward to your replies!

- James Leatherman

MarkF
31st August 2001, 10:39
I have to admit, I read the last half of this thread with concern, but I see it was unfounded. All of you should be commended for turning off the burner before all the water was gone.

For what it's worth, I'm judoka as well. And taking my lead from Chuck Clark, "basically, they are both the same thing." (excuse the paraphrase) in regard to aikido.

Mark

PRehse
31st August 2001, 19:23
Hi Mark;

From my point of view they are - but as a Tomiki stylist I would say something like that. I did Nihon Kempo for a few years while in London - I say that most good Budo boils down to a very small set of principles. You can spend a good deal of time looking for the differences but in the end it is far easier to understand the similarities.

I personally welcome outside comment but don't think Don is particularily representative of Judoka either, at least those I have met.

By the way I know Karl - never even got a whiff of arrogance from him.

BC
31st August 2001, 20:58
Excellent point Peter!

I'm a big believer that due to the limited ways in which the human anatomy works, most martial arts at their advanced stages will have more similarities than differences. You know, different paths up the same mountain, and so on...

Also, everyone please understand that my previous post wasn't meant to imply anything negative about judo or judoka. It's just that it seemed some of the newer members were assuming Don was an aikidoka because of the manner in which he expressed his opinions.

-Robert Cronin

michi
31st August 2001, 21:14
Also, everyone please understand that my previous post wasn't meant to imply anything negative about judo or judoka. It's just that it seemed some of the newer members were assuming Don was an aikidoka because of the manner in which he expressed his opinions.

-Robert Cronin [/B]

Hi Robert,

I think you're referring to me when you talk about the newer members.
Maybe I did think Don was/is an aikidoka. That however is beside the point. He wasn't the only one who was discussing in a way which is in my humble opinion un-aiki (to use that expression again). but it's good to know Don has left this thread (at least, it looks that way).

Greetings :wave:,

Sjoerd Vermeulen

dainippon99
31st August 2001, 21:28
i agree with peter and robert. if you watch old films of mifune kyuzo sensei, his judo is almost aikido. none of the clashing you sometimes see (not always) in judo, none of the grunting and wrestling, just flow, blending, timing, and beautiful technique.

Kaijin
31st August 2001, 21:52
From BC:
I'm a big believer that due to the limited ways in which the human anatomy works, most martial arts at their advanced stages will have more similarities than differences.

Mr. Cronin -

That was one of the things that my sensei impressed upon me from the moment I walked through the door. That's why in Kosho we always look for the similarities - in kata, throughout other disciplines, and especially in daily life. I guess that's really the main reason I got hooked - I was given advanced knowledge, then told to go figure it out myself. It actually works great to turn the learning system upside down like this...
And it forces us to see all MA branches in the light of commonality.

tweety
31st August 2001, 22:12
Originally posted by BC
Excellent point Peter!

I'm a big believer that due to the limited ways in which the human anatomy works, most martial arts at their advanced stages will have more similarities than differences. You know, different paths up the same mountain, and so on...
-snip-

-Robert Cronin

I just wanted to say that I wholeheartedly believe this statement to be true.

Stephen M. Kovalcik

PRehse
1st September 2001, 22:18
Originally posted by michi
my humble opinion un-aiki (to use that expression again
Aikido can also be very direct. Sen no sen and all that. Of course trying any sort of atemi against a brickwall is bound to hurt.

MarkF
2nd September 2001, 10:32
Yes, I actually met a few brick walls over the years, and it is also true that it hurts.

I assume you meant human brick walls?:smash:

Mark

PRehse
2nd September 2001, 22:14
Cheers Mark :toast:

koshoT
9th September 2001, 18:44
Hi Kevin, whats going on in Rhode Island?
Hey James, how's class going back in Albany?
Hello Mike, I really enjoyed your sword class this weekend and I can't wait until the next time I can come out and learn.

For what it's worth back in Delmar NY, US Budokai, Kosho Ryu, and Aikido are all taught at the same Dojo. This isn't anything new, but I would like to point out that all the teachers and students collectively learn from each other. No one carries around any ego about having a better art, or being superior to each other. There are a couple of students that even cross-train. We are taught to look for similarities between these wonderful arts, instead of paying attention to the differences. I think this kind of friendly and open atmosphere toward all martial arts is essential to preserving the arts.

Thank you,
Tom Berkery

Vincent Sanford
14th September 2001, 06:56
There has always been opinions and assumtions, as well as red herrings and blatant lies in this world and it's history, martial arts not excluded. I don't know the veracity of Mitose receiving rank from O'Sensei. But whomever is saying this-the source; is he not saying it was only honorary. Universities of top stature give honorary degrees to individuals regardless of what they may have contributed to the degree's related field. I wouldn't go to a doctor who received his M.D. as honorary. This is just a title. Nothing more, and nothing less.
I am not saying there is truth or lies behind the Mitose/rank proposal. It may or may not be true. But I will leave you with two quotes. One is a Japanes phrase.
1) "The only thing new in this world is the history you don't know------Harry S. Truman"
2) 'Uso Mo Hoben'--Basically meaning sometimes deceit is justified.
If O'Sensei did in fact grant rank to James Mitose, we weren't there and can hardly ask why or understand. That was for O'Sensei to do and he cannot be judged on something like this regardless of Mitose and his doings.
If O'Sense didn't, well the reasoning doesn't apply.
O'Sensei truly was a gift. His art continues carrying his spirit to all the world.
Sincerely,
Vincent Sanford

R. Scherzinger
14th September 2001, 21:42
“His art continues carrying his spirit to all the world.”

Vincent,

Do you really believe this? It seems a bit without depth and romantic to me. I have studied Aikido for 6years now, which I know is no monumental time period but I have been to dojos all over and I find this not to be true in many cases. I am not saying that teachers are not following the art but this comment implies that current instruction in the art is mimicking or is imbued with Osensei’s essence. If this were true would not all the uchi deshi be in the same organization? Would we as Aikidoka not enjoy training with each other as opposed to grandstanding in seminars?

I think that our reality is truly controlled by our bias. That being said, all of our senior Aikido instructors have learned different things and cannot hope to create an Aikido the same as Ueshiba Osensei’s and so will never hit his true spirit. Is this bad? I don’t think so as these men are fabulous Aikidoka and have added their own flavor to the mix. O’sensei’s Aiki died with him.

Now back to the matter at hand Mitose sensei was never trained in Aikido. The old saying about the mountain applies, at the top martial arts are martial arts. Ueshiba Osensei or Tohei sensei recognized something in Mitose sensei that served their interest in HI not his. What does he gain but a headache? The only reason it should be brought up as a question is to explore and get a idea what these men were like? Why would someone as awesome as Morihei Ueshiba pay this accolade to J.M.Mitose?

Another point is that Osensei was not clairvoyant or at least not into the distant future so when he died he could not have known that lee would kill Mr. Namimatsu and that Mitose sensei would be an accessory to the murder.

Thank you Vincent for the opening. It troubles me greatly when I train with Aikidoka that hurt people or avoid the aggressive workout. I try very hard to understand the teachings left by Ueshiba Osensei and live them. This goes for the teachings of Mitose sensei as well. But I caution blind faith.

Vincent Sanford
14th September 2001, 23:49
Originally posted by R. Scherzinger
“His art continues carrying his spirit to all the world.”

Vincent,

Do you really believe this? It seems a bit without depth and romantic to me. I have studied Aikido for 6years now, which I know is no monumental time period but I have been to dojos all over and I find this not to be true in many cases. I am not saying that teachers are not following the art but this comment implies that current instruction in the art is mimicking or is imbued with Osensei’s essence. If this were true would not all the uchi deshi be in the same organization? Would we as Aikidoka not enjoy training with each other as opposed to grandstanding in seminars?

Yes I do believe this. The spirit and belief in peace is transgressed across the world through the teachings of O'sensei. Aikido is an art of love and compassion-at least at its core and its Motis Operandi is to teach instead of to destroy.
There are many different paths in life that reach the same destination as there are many religions that reach the same God. Of course not everyone is going to belong to the same organization nor should they. That was not the goal of O'sensei.
He didn't want people to mimick him or become him. He wanted people to take aikido and infuse it with their own being.
Yes, O'sensei's Aikido died with him. There will never be another O'sensei. But his concept and belief in compassion are carried whenever people join on the mat to celebrate his spirit, his aikido, and their aikido.
Thank you for Mr. Scherzinger for your post.
Sincerely,
Vincent Sanford

Simon D
15th September 2001, 00:08
Hear Hear Vincent! :toast:

Vincent Sanford
15th September 2001, 09:53
Thank you very much Simon.
:toast:

R. Scherzinger
17th September 2001, 17:58
Vincent,

I agree that it was Osensei’s intent to transmit Aikido as an art of peace and in keeping with the thread so was Mitose sensei, except during WWII. But I find that, the messages from both men, the o’l love thy neighbor deal has been lost to some degree. I find this abhorrent and troubling. I have had many experiences where I was treated poorly when visiting a new dojo. Why would this be if the art were truly followed? I dare say human nature. Can I fault anyone, no. I love both arts, but am continually confronted with egos and political agendas.

I don’t think that the religious groups that do acknowledge the same God would agree that any other group of worshipers is also going to meet him. Aikido is not different. Ki society vs. Aikikai or Tomiki vs. USAF or even USAF(E) vs. USAF(W) These groups all believe that they are in harmony with the teaching of Osensei and yet they seem to believe that the others are off a bit, why? How can we as a community (Aikidoka) explain “Combat Aikido”? Where did it come from, why does it exist?

The thing is Aikido is not unique. Kosho Shorei Ryu, Mitose sensei’s art has fallen into the same trap. As time goes on more and more instructors pop up teaching the art of J.M. Mitose and preaching his philosophies and yet they do not take the time to walk the walk. Yes its hard to have a new student walk into a class regardless of their rank, but if you follow the path of these men shouldn’t he be welcomed without a testing his metal? Its hard to embrace the ideas of others even within in your our own groups, but given the teachings of these men it should be.

This may sound as if I am discontent with Aikido or Kosho, which is far from the truth. I practice daily and enjoy training with other Aikidoka and Kempoka. I have visited dojos throughout Europe and the US, still on hold for the trip to Japan. Vincent, the point is I have lost a great deal of respect for some teachers in my past and that saddens me not for my loss but for theirs. Well maybe my loss too. I cannot benefit from their instruction and in a strange way I miss them. Maybe it is the cup deal half empty or half full. I belive in what Ueshiba and Mitose taught. I want to live that belief, their belief in true martial arts.

Good luck Vincent and thanks,

Vincent Sanford
18th September 2001, 08:03
Dear Rem,
I understand, I really do. That was a very personal post and I respect you for sharing that with us. Human nature is fickle. There are the good and the bad and everything in between. I at one time was considering the priesthood, and of course in that position you ask yourself, who is right, who will meet God. Luckily I was taught not to judge people erroneously and that my religion didn't have the exclusive "pass" into heaven or nirvana, etc... I respect all religions. So in regard to people, I say don't judge their faith, but instead look at their character.
The same can be said about Aikido. The message of peace and love is there-everytime Uke meets the mat, regardless of schisms, or interfederation disagreements, etc...Don't judge the art--just recognize that people are flawed and that perfection will never be met. It's human nature to break up into groups and then defend.
Remember this. I stopped trying to find beauty in the big picture and started focusing on the little things. Like, someone offering to help you in a time of need, or a nice sunset, or even a special song played just at the right time. By doing this, you will see that beauty, love, and even peace can be found everywhere, including the martial arts. And you will see that O'Sensei's message is still being shared.
Sincerley,
Vincent Sanford

:toast:

M.C. Busman
4th September 2004, 16:40
Here is some new information on James Mitose's 10th dan in Aikido. This letter should put an end to some of the myths regarding this. See:

http://www.kempojutsu.net/mitoseaikido.html

For history buffs w/ an interest in Mitose lineage kempo or martial arts in Hawaii, I would also highly recommend obtaining the complete court transcript California v Mitose on CD-rom (at about 1400 pages, a real fun read). You should be able to buy it for 10-20 $ on ebay or the like. Don't pay the 75.00 one school is asking!



Have a Terrific Day,

M.C. Busman

Finny
5th September 2004, 05:33
Sorry for devolving the thread a bit, but I wanted to say that I hadn't noticed anything too out of line in what Don posted.

I think he presented his case quite fairly and well, actually. Maybe he can be a little blunt in the face of dissenting views, but I'd echo the point that he made by trying to sum up what I got from his posts.

It seemed to me that he was basically saying that Mitose was convicted of ordering his student to murder an elderly couple for failing to pay him extortion money.

This is a fact that cannot be disputed. Mitose was convicted alongside his student and they both went to jail for their crimes. No one's disputing that.

I've heard the others say 'there's a lot to the other side of the story' 'you obviously don't know that much about it...' 'get in touch with me and I'll show you that there is a substantial argument to the other side of this...' etc etc.

Talk of other 'theories', and attacking Don for his methd of presenting his conclusions followed, but NOT ONCE, did I see anything that even tried to provide substance to this 'other side' of the issue. Point in fact (and I speak only as someone curious, I don't have any real stake in seeing anyone vindicated here), I don't even know what this 'other side' is.

I actually feel a bit out of line in posting on this thread, as someone who does'nt really have any business in it, but I really am curious as to what this 'other side' of the issue is.

It seems to me that Don was simply saying that Mitose was an extortionist who ordered the murder of an elderly couple. He offered his opinion that this is one of the most repugnant acts anyone could possibly commit, and that he thought that this should stain Mitose's reputation, and that of his art, for all time.

I personally would tend to agree with him. I can't really think of many things more horrible than killing an elderly couple in their own home. I wouldn't want to train in the art of someone responsible for that. However I also understand that many of you who train in Kosho Ryu are fine people who find this crime as reprehensible as I do.

So, I have two questions.
One: to the students of Kosho Ryu, how do you reconcile yourself with the fact that you are training in the art of (and thus paying respect to - presumably) a man convicted of such an heinous crime?

Two: Could one of you please outline the basic argument of the 'other side' of this issue? I ask this sincerely, because in all honestly I have no idea what you're trying to argue - that Mitose was not involved in the murder? that neither he nor his student was? that they both were but they were coerced? that it was self-defence? what ?

Once again my apologies for dragging you back into this issue, feel free to ignore my post and not answer if you feel I'm biased or insulting in any way, that was not my intention.

Howard Thiery
5th September 2004, 17:38
so after all this time has anyone seen these certificates? That seems to be one of the missing pieces here. I'm a bit surprised the original poster managed to drag Meik Skoss into this as verification with no reply directly from Meik (though I have no reason to believe he knows of this thread) or anyone contacting Meik (not a hard task from what I know).

Oh well just a few things that still make me go hmmmmmmm....

cheers,
HJT

Kevin73
5th September 2004, 17:58
The article that Mr. Buschman posted was the one I was going to post a link to as well. Koichi Tohei had admitted that the certificates existed, BUT he went on to explain what they were actually for.

To summarize the article, Mitose went to Ed Parker at one time and wanted to build a "kenpo temple" for people to train/worship and pay lots of money to do so there. He was turned down by Ed Parker. Mitose then went to Ueshiba and did the same thing to him that he wanted to build a temple to spread harmony etc. He convinced Ueshiba to grant him this stuff so he would have pull in America to raise the money needed. It was an honorary certificate and was only for the project.

M.C. Busman
5th September 2004, 21:42
On another forum I was asked about whether the certs were from Ueshiba or Tohei. Ueshiba Morihei died on April 26, 1969. He could not have signed any certificate for Mitose or any other person in 1970.

Folks from the Vast Kajukenbo World have been exploring territory that many Kenpo men are leary to tread. Here are some superb links discussing Mitose matters in depth:

Here are some other terrific links you should read to get a better feel for the history. It is becoming evident that Mitose was truthful about little if any of his personal history. Records have recently surfaced which suggest he did not go to Japan at all, and picked up the rudiments of okinawan shorin-ryu kempo from Okinawans living in Hawai'i (it is a documented fact karate was practiced in Hawai'i before Mitose).

Some excellent links worth reading in full (bring snacks--there is a lot to go through):

The Mitose Controversy in a nutshell (GOOD!) by Matthew Barnes:

http://home.comcast.net/~matthewabarnes/mitose.html

John Bishop's interview with Adriano Emperado, co-founder of Kajukenbo:

http://www.kajukenboinfo.com/sijointerview.html

Mitose & Okinawa's Karate connection in Hawaii from Kajukenbo Cafe:

http://rpoelking.4dwebhosting.com/c...y;threadid=1010

More on Mitose's Okinawan connection, discussion on Kajukenbo Cafe:

http://rpoelking.4dwebhosting.com/c...rev _next=next

Mitose Mystery discussion, from Kajukenbo Cafe:

http://rpoelking.4dwebhosting.com/c...id=24;start =0

More Mitose on Kajukenbo Cafe:

http://rpoelking.4dwebhosting.com/c... =msg893#msg893


Chow & Mitose, discussion on Kajukenbo Cafe (nice historic Chow w/ students photo):

http://rpoelking.4dwebhosting.com/c...ay;threadid=108

M.C. Busman
5th September 2004, 21:45
Again, I reiterate the importance of reading the Mitose court transcripts. Don't be too put off by the length--everything is triple-spaced, and many pages only have 5-10 lines of text. I should take about a week or two t a few hrs. a night if you take some brief notes.

You will learn several facts about Mitose's character from Mitose which he himself admits. His actual testimony includes:

* Mitose admits running a brothel in Hawaii around '30's-40's.[this might explain a rape charge on his record mentioned by Ed Parker in a separate interview. It also squashes the rumor that he ran an herbal store in Hawaii--a Massage parlour is what he called it.]

* It becomes clear from his own testimony Mitose knew nothing about herbal medicine and was certainly never an herbal Dr! For the thousands he bilked out of the Namimatsus, he'd spend 10$ or so on a Chinese herbalists prescription and getting that prescription filled a week or so.

*Mitose was a blatent racist who makes derogatory statements about the inferiority of Black people, black fighters & martial artists, and his reluctance to take on a Black man as a student (Terry Lee, now known as Nimr Hassan). So much for universal love and world peace.

* Mitose admits he was "ordained" by mail, and didn't even write his own thesis for his mail-order Doctor of Divinity diploma because his English was so bad. Even his mail-order ordination was obtained through fraud.

* Terry Lee states in his testimony that Mitose wasn't a real master (I guess he's changed his mind now!).

*At one point the judge calls Mitose on his phoney shows of respect. One minute Mitose would be playing humble, bowing to the Judge w/ praying hands, telling the judge he was like a God in Mitose's eyes, the next minute he'd directly disobey the judges orders, interrupt, etc. The Judge was not impressed, and pointed Mitose's highly disrespectful & inconsistent behavior out. He was not manipulated by Mitose's possum spiritualism.

* The transcript shown numerous instances of Mitose trying to manipulate people. He brings a bag of his faeces to court. He asks the court for the death penalty, making a show of accepting responsibility while saying he is innocent. He whines about the holding tank deputies putting him w/ other inmates, then he whines about being alone when he is segregated for his protection as per his request, and is eventually put back w/ other inmates. Textbook example of passive-aggressive manipulation. Seems the Judge had dealt w/ this type of Defendant before and recognized the behavior for what it was...Judge comented on the massive delays caused by Mitose's behavior and stalling tactics. Through it all, the judge was amazingly patient and fair, if obviously annoyed.

* Mitose drove the court reporter, translators, bailiff, judge, court holding tank deputies, witnesses, and his own attourney nuts with his constant interruptions during the testimony of others, and tendancy to change the subject, go off on mundane tangents & not answer direct questions. Someone would ask him a question, and he'd talk about something completely unrelated. He'd make off the wall bizar comments in obvious attempts to tear down the character of others. The judge is constantly ordering him to shut up, behave, and stop interrupting.

* Witnesses describe him as a lazy guy who would often spend his time laying about the house and reading detective magazines (trashy pulp fiction of the day).

* Mitose admitted using all or most of the entire savings of at least 2 families (there were more, but the transcript covers Goeku and Namimatsu) on expenses, spending the money like running water in a drought...he tells the court all the money went for expenses and taking care of the Goeku family who moved in w/ him after Osamu Goeku sold his store...He continued the ruse of driving around w/ the pictures of him & Pers. Eisenhower shaking hands to raise money...which never went to a charitable cause other than his own expenses. Mitose told the families and public he was raising $ for a Japanese-American friendship group...He was a con man. It is as simple as that. He used religion as a tool. He used martial arts as a tool. To further his own purposes.

* Near the end, the Judge pointedly asks Alvin Mitose if he ever remembers his father holding honest employment. Alvin mentions that Mitose Sr. was a janitor for a while when Alvin was very young...

Apologists try to make it look like Mitose was the victim of the court. The transcript makes things very clear who the victims were though, and the Mitose family was not among them. Mitose was NOT an innocent man who was framed, or an innocent man who was railroaded. It seems he underestimated the intelligence of others. He was behind what can only be called horrible crimes. And in the end, he did not even want to take responsibility for those. PLEASE read the transcript for yourself. Other evidence discussed lately outside the transcript:

* I've been saying it for years (no-one bothers citing me on it!) Mitose used the Makiwara. This is an OKINAWAN device.

* There is no evidence to back up his Shaka-in temple family-monk lineage story. It is just that, a story.

* "Kosho" was a later innovation, possibly from his mother's family name, "KoMatsu" (sho & matsu both use same kanji, meaning = "pine" as in tree).

* Motobu Choki is IN NO WAY related to Mitose. Not through blood, not through study. The two men never met!

* There is no Mitose familial kempo lineage that goes back beyond James Masayoshi Mitose. It appears to have started w/ him from what he learned in Hawai'i.

To learn more, see the links in my last post.

Again I reiterate that the people who practice Mitose-ha lineage arts have nothig to be ashamed of--facts are facts. History is just that--history. The past. Something to study & learn from, good and bad. What YOU and I merit is based on what & how we practice NOW. Not what someone down the line did years ago.


Have a Wonderful Day,

M.C. Busman

Chris Li
6th September 2004, 06:28
Originally posted by Kevin73
The article that Mr. Buschman posted was the one I was going to post a link to as well. Koichi Tohei had admitted that the certificates existed, BUT he went on to explain what they were actually for.

One note - as I understand these things, all dan certificates issued in the Aikikai are signed by an Ueshiba - at that time it would have been Kisshomaru. In other words, a certificate signed by Tohei (if that's what it was) would have no meaning as far as the Aikikai is concerned, honorary or not.

Best,

Chris

mosb
7th September 2004, 06:21
Originally posted by R. Scherzinger


Ueshiba Osensei or Tohei sensei recognized something in Mitose sensei that served their interest in HI not his. What does he gain but a headache? The only reason it should be brought up as a question is to explore and get a idea what these men were like? Why would someone as awesome as Morihei Ueshiba pay this accolade to J.M.Mitose?

[/B]

Maybe he sent some guys round to Ueshiba Morihei's with some screwdrivers?



Li Bao

salazar2kk
23rd September 2004, 09:18
Finally, an accurate account. You can all go to:

www.aikidocenterla.com

There, Furuya Sensei details the events, as he was there. Go to his message board and click on the 22nd of September. Scroll down the page and you will see the article on the History of Aikido in Southern California.

P Goldsbury
23rd September 2004, 15:46
Originally posted by salazar2kk
Finally, an accurate account. You can all go to:

www.aikidocenterla.com

There, Furuya Sensei details the events, as he was there. Go to his message board and click on the 22nd of September. Scroll down the page and you will see the article on the History of Aikido in Southern California.

Dear Mr Zafir,

I am the Moderator of this forum. It is a rule of this forum that you sign your posts with your full name. Sorry to be severe, but this is a rule that you undertook to keep when you signed up as a member of this forum.

Finally, please give my best regartds to Mr Furuya. I met him many years ago in San Diego.

Very best regards,

P Goldsbury
23rd September 2004, 15:57
Originally posted by salazar2kk
Finally, an accurate account. You can all go to:

www.aikidocenterla.com

There, Furuya Sensei details the events, as he was there. Go to his message board and click on the 22nd of September. Scroll down the page and you will see the article on the History of Aikido in Southern California.

Mr Zafir,

I have followed your advice and looked at the details of the meeting of 22nd September. However, Mr Furuya does not discuss the matter of Mr Mitose's 10th dan and his alleged commission from O Sensei to supervise aikido in the USA. I myself have copies of these certificates.

I believe Tohei Sensei separated from the Aikikai in 1975, not 1972, as stated in his message board. Perhaps the dates do not really matter, since Mr Furuya himself apparently separated from Mr Tohei several years before the break. What was disturbing for me in Mr Furuya's discussion was to find that Tohei Sensei has apparently planned the break with the Hombu several years before it took place and that Mr Mitose was used as a kind of accomplice. But, of course I was not there and I have heard only the Hombu's side of the story.

Best regards,

salazar2kk
23rd September 2004, 17:21
Mr. Goldsbury,

I have corrected the name. Sorry about that. It was not intentional. On Sensei Furuya's message board, he does state that he is sure that Mitose did not get the 10th dan from O'Sensei, but from Tohei Sensei. I respect Sensei Furuya very much and since he said he was there, I'll take his word for it. It is a shame about Tohei Sensei's split, but those things are still going on in the Aikido world today.

P Goldsbury
23rd September 2004, 23:40
Originally posted by salazar2kk
Mr. Goldsbury,

I have corrected the name. Sorry about that. It was not intentional. On Sensei Furuya's message board, he does state that he is sure that Mitose did not get the 10th dan from O'Sensei, but from Tohei Sensei. I respect Sensei Furuya very much and since he said he was there, I'll take his word for it. It is a shame about Tohei Sensei's split, but those things are still going on in the Aikido world today.

In the entry for 22 September on Mr Furuya's message board, the actual quote is:

"There is a discussion of some documents that Mitose received from O'Sensei which state that Mitose is awarded a 10th Dan and "responsibility" of the United States and on and on. . . . and this is followed by a long endless discussion. . . ."

This occurs in the second paragraph. Here Mr Furuya does not give his actual opinion on the documents and certainly does not state who gave Mr Mitose his 10th dan. Does he talk about this anywhere else? I can read Japanese and believe that the translation given above several pages back on the following web site:
http://www.kempojutsu.net/mitoseaikido.html
is basically correct.

Furthermore, the discussion is certainly long, but not endless. I think it was revived after a long hiatus. Which is fine, in my opinion. This is what discussion forums are for.

Best regards

salazar2kk
24th September 2004, 04:17
Mr. Goldsbury:

This is from the same message board:

Tohei had asked me my impression of Mitose after that first meeting and I told Tohei that I did not really trust him. Tohei replied to me that although he did not know him well at all, he offered so much money to his cause that he would have to treat him very well. Whatever documents Mitose had were generated by Tohei himself and not O'Sensei, I am quite sure of this.