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johan smits
22nd August 2001, 14:44
This subject is connected to the TSKSR-discussion in the sword arts section. I thought it would be better to post my message in the general koryu section because what I want to discuss is not about TSKSR as such but more broadly about koryu in general.
Furthermore some people may take offence by some of my points and I do not want to associate TSKSR with my comments.

What triggered my post is the, very impressing, post by Greg Ellis - it is never what you expect-.

Greg Ellis wrote:

"But I think my perception may be of help to some, and at least be fuel for good wholesome discussion."

Good fuel it is, maybe here's a spark.

First let me say that I am not hindered by any inside knowledge about koryu, meaning I am not a member of such a body. The knowledge I have about koryu is the knowledge anyone can find in publications available to the general public. Over the years I have asked guite a few people, some of them posting on this board, for information. Some of them were very kind and open and helped me while others did not, were not so kind and sometimes even rude (the last two categories, of course, do not post on this board).

Some people may feel, since I have no first hand experience of being part of a koryu, I cannot form an authorative opinion on the subject. They are correct, on the other hand I do not pretend to (nor can I) to give such an opinion.
What I can do is speak my mind, trusting those people who can speak with authority will get annoyed with me and shine their lights on this subject. If they don't nothing is lost.

For some time I really thought koryu people were a suspicious lot, as soon as they were asked for info about koryu they started talking about people who wanted to become "a Heap Big Kahuna" (no idea what the animal looks like, but the transformation must be painful) in their own countries and take advantage of koryu. For some reason a lot of money and beautiful women have something to do with it.
After reading Greg Ellis's post I do have a better understanding why Western members of koryu react the way they do to people who pretend to have gone through all the troubles they have gone through. After reading Greg's post for the third time I think the koryu insiders actually react in a pretty civilized way when confronted with the undignified.

Now the painful part.

"Your life belongs to the school."

This really bothers me, it may sound romantically to some of us, but it shouldn't it should scare the hell out of us. Leaving the integrity of people in charge of koryu out of the discussion. Any organization requiring one to put the organization above oneselves, regardless of personal sacrifices in income or family, should be frowned upon. It may not be strange to the Japanese mind but it is certainly foreign to the Westerner's nature (I am generalizing I admit, but I think it holds true).
Actually the term serfdom and servile come to mind, although the last term may seem a bit strong I use it. Theterm servants attitude would be better maybe but doesn't convey what I mean.

What with individual responsability, leave that to another? A master, your master, your leader?
Now if koryu would be nothing more than preservation societies, or some sort of re-enactment it wouldn't matter a great deal, but some people describe a ryu as a being, living and exerting influence in the world.

I believe we should all be reasonable, law-abiding members of the society in which we live, but I do think a man should be his own master. Man doesn't walk the earth to serve the things he created, the things he created are here to serve man.

My rant for Wednesday.

Best Regards,

Johan Smits

gmellis
24th August 2001, 01:46
Johan,
You raise some excellent points that are a very natural reaction to what I've written. Let me just say first that I tend to drive my nails home with a sledgehamer, so my words can be somewhat stronger than others, especially on my 12th week of 70+ hour workweeks. I think that being an outsider and making well-intended observations and comments on koryu is an excellent way for "insiders" to reexamine the sometimes odd world they live in as well as any holes in their opinions or worldviews, so you will find no flaming here.

"Your life belongs to the school."
What I mean by this is not that you shave your head, wear a robe and start selling flowers in airports for some guru to drive around in a classic Mustang drinking martinis and smoking a huge spiff. We westerners tend to think that ANY subservience whatsoever is a dangerous thing, because we must defer our own opinions, values and drives to those of someone else, a concept that is quite foreign to our "I am an island, and aint gonna take no shit from nobody" attitude. Being an American, I can speak with some authority on that mindset (woho! that one may start a flame war!). I think that among those that know me, servile would be one of the last words they would use to describe me. When I say "Your life belongs to the school," I mean that, outside of your standard daily responsibilities to family, work, self (to a limited degree) and society, your loyalties must reside with the school. Example: there are higher-ups in the school that attend demonstrations all over Japan at the request of sensei. Some of tem attend many of those. They do not whine, or get angry, or make excuses for all the vacation they must use to participate in these activities or profits lost for having to close their business or stay out of the fields or whatever. It is a given. Do they give all their income to sensei to support a lavish lifestyle? No. Do they wait on his every beck-and-call at the expense of their families and themselves. Certainly not. They are all too wise and level-headed for that. But, if it is a question of self(after family and work mind you)-interest or school-interest, the choice is clear for them. They realize that they are taking part in a crucial role that their many dojo predecessors for hundreds of years did. They are cinpleting the link while also forging the example for future adherents to follow. This is how TSKSR has been passed down to us. Most of these guys are farmers or other low-income jobs. They could be using that time to start a side business or work harder for more money, but then they wouldn't be TSKSR adherents. Fiercely loyal and dedicated to the same goal, yes. Mindless automatons falling in line to a guru, no. "Your life belongs to the school." also means going despite being tired or just "not into it" becuase of the realization that everything is not just about you. That you have an obligation to be there and show your support and encourage others, even if your practice is off that day. These concepts are hard for many foreigners to swallow. Our western concepts about a teacher-student relationship are some of the biggest set-backs to studying traditional arts here in Japan (or anywhere). This is the same attitude on the part of westerners that spawned the saying by Crazy Elk "I believe the white man is too busy with his own words to ever hear anything!"? This is also the reason some teachers here are hesitant to teachforeigners. They come thinking they know everything already, like cocky teenagers who know nothing and apply their limited experience to the world, tripping along the whole way. I think Kensho Furuya wrote more wisely than many about this in "KODO Ancient Way." I am not saying that reason is detrimental to practice, as long as you shelf it and dont act on it unless some flagrant civil liberties are being trampled on. Why? Because if you come into an art with a master who has been doing it for over 60 years, and you start using your own notions of reality and concepts of what is normal, you will have troubles. Does this leave the door open for people getting hurt? You can always leave if you disagree. But as long as you stay in the school, shelf it. In time, things that you thought insane start to make sense (no this is not cultural assimilation either). I personally will listen to Crazy Elk and keep my mouth shut so that I may learn.
Hope this clarifies this. And no I am not anti-American, but America has alot of growing up to do before it can consider itself a full-fledged adult. in my opinion.

MarkF
24th August 2001, 08:40
Crazy Elk is not so crazy. On a general level, truer words were never spoken.

However, a statement of "your life belongs to the school" has been said many times, though with more thought and thorough explanation. With that, those of us who see that as morally reprehensible, also can read between the lines. But also, admitting there are schools just like that with every bit of legitimate existence and lineage, surely must exist (have existed).

Some koryu do not want outsiders in their modest trappings because they are foreigners. Let's face it, some people are just like that. Some also only require that you be sincere, hardworking, and bringing TSKSR in for the moment, that your hard work be spent on an outside job simply as a means of not needing to "work off the students' backs" or so that you have no reason to begin teaching something which isn't yours. But this also would be grand for all bugei, not just koryu.

As a preservation society, that too is true, more so after the samurai and weapons carrying was outlawed, many such koryu began to act as thugs, learning lessons in the street so as to keep an art effective. Not very nice, but neither were some schools' idea of a prospective member of that school being "jumped in" just as other groups still feel necessary (not schools exactly, but it was seen then as very distasteful and crude). With no battles to fight, some were simply invented. Challenges to other schools happened so often as to make the entire koryu jujutsu schools to be a haven for troublemakers. At least, it wasn't seen as the very top end of society, it was the bottom to most, at one time.

The point is, that even the extremes of what is meant did go on and there is some truth to it. To deny that, would be to deny the schools the right to exist. Lessons are learned in many ways, and that was one of them. Some died out because the schoolmaster was so intent on keeping the schools so small, and the tell so few, or in some cases, they told no one. Others moved to preserve it, as it is today.

I've seen it explained here that what you do in your particular koryu IS for the ryu and the ryu only. Any thought of benefit to one's self is outrageous. But I've just as often read, at the end of the day, it matters little what the school is, only that you've had a great day of keiko.

This may not be true, but it has been said, and written.

Anyway, this isn't my block so I'll go up the street to see what's cookin.' Please feel free to ignore it.

Mark

johan smits
24th August 2001, 20:47
Hi Greg and Mark,

Thanks to both of you for your comments. Greg you hit the nail again right on top, my comments are indeed well-intended. I think I’ve got a pretty good idea of how your first post should be read but it is, even here on this board, a rare occasion to find an in-depth post on koryu such as yours. For outsiders there is so much to be gained from discussions. Even the TSKSR-thread, (which turned a bit nasty for my taste) did result in a lot of useful information for those interested.

“Our western concepts about teacher-student relationship are some of the biggest set-backs to studying traditional arts in Japan (or anywhere).”

This doesn’t has to be so or does it?
Originally in the West we had a teacher-student relationship which, I think, compares very good to (at least when I understand correctly) what a teacher-student relationship looks like in a koryu, when you look at craftmanship. Any craft for that matter.
There was the master, the journeyman and the apprentice. In their relationship there was an element of mutual trust, investment and loyalty, caring for each other and helping each other.
There was also the element of gaining something for both sides, a craft and means of living (in the future) for the apprentice and for the master someone to carry on the master’s trade one day.
This is a bit simplified, there were subsidized apprentices, exploitation of cheap labour etc,etc but the idea is, I think generally the same.
But then of course there were good and honorable masters and masters who were crooks.

I guess the consumer society (anywhere in the world) is the biggest set-back to studying (or survival of) traditional arts. As a consumer you are constantly in competition with the producers of the goods. You want “it” at the best conditions, and since they are out to get your money they will go very far to give you your way (or at least make you think you got your way). I guess koryu and commercialism don’t go together.
But there are more examples.

Some time ago I got my hands on a beautiful and rare book on judo. Since spine and cover were damaged I got it for a good price. Happy with my acquisition I went to a bookbinder and asked what he estimated the costs of repair would be. He took the book out of my hands and looked at it. I asked again for an estimation of the costs while he was carefully studying the condition and bindings of the book.He then told me, without answering my question that he could do it and was willing to do it for me, then he told me it would be something like one hundred dollars.
I felt a bit ashamed. I had come to his workshop with the certain idea that my money would buy his services without fail, I didn’t even think about it and subsequently did not treat him or his craft with the respect they deserve. It became obvious to me that here was someone who thought his craft and the books he got to work on because of it were more important than financial gain. All ended well though, he did a beautiful job on the book and, in a way even more worthwhile , he gave me a glimpse of the spirit of what a true master should be.
He made quite an impression on me, as a matter of fact when I think of mastering jujutsu (the art I practise) this man always comes to mind.
For now.


Best Regards,

Johan Smits

24th August 2001, 22:25
Hi guys,

Interesting stuff. I feel the twitches and pangs of this discussion from both sides. My situation is sort of like having a leg in both environments. Although the Takamura ryuha of SYR is technically a gendai derivation of a (barely) koryu tradition, I have come to realize that has always operated politically much more like a koryu. When I started this little journey I didn't know what a koryu was but I have learned the hard way as should be expected with me being a typically stubborn Texan. (Right Greg) :) Takamura Sensei was a living dichotomy if there ever was one, Japanese and western at the same time...or not... when appearing one was beneficial over the other. In the Takamura ha we have no rank and until one reaches the upper level of instruction, the art is very physically & technically focused. At Joden however the more mystical elements of training do present themselves. This I might add does not include disappearing, flying, catching swords in our teeth, barking like dogs or singing like hamsters. No unhealthy sacrafice of money, life or limb is demanded. What is demanded is a keppan and this is serious mojo. The first keppan is a essentially a moral code including a formal recognition of the dojo reishiki. The second taken at jodan, demands a lifelong dedication to the opening of ones mind by examining, learning and accepting concepts mostly foreign to the mainline western experience. The most difficult hurdle most people find in the high level SYR curriculum is accepting concepts that appear very cryptic and accepting them without a lot of questions. We westerner's want quick superficial answers to deep questions and then expect to move on without letting the experience of learning really seep into us. Takamura Sensei didn't embrace this impatience very tolerantly. In fact it would probably be more accurate to say that the Takamura ha SYR is downright intolerant of this attitude. Is this intolerance a bad thing. I don't care because I've come to understand that it just is...It just is the way of the ryu. If you don't like it you are free to go on your way... but remember that keppan! Accepting the autonomy of, and preservation of the traditional teaching methodology of the ryu is part of what is mean't by "your life belongs to the school". You're not selling you soul to the devil here. You're not promising to prostrate yourself on the kamidana. You're presenting your honor to embrace a responsability to continuing a tradition. If you desert the the promise, you taint your honor. For some thats a big deal, to other its not. My most difficult job is recognizing the difference.

Many of the individuals who promote a twisted and ultimately destructive "you belong to the school" mentality are really pretenders of koryu instead of the real deal. We know who they are. How many legitament koryu really have "secret handshakes" or demand their disciples to fulfill a life of servitude that compromises their health, families or professions? How many legitament koryu schools misspell their arts name on their certificates? Heck, I think your are even more likely to find some bizarre behavior parading as "traditional" in some fringe schools of aikido than koryu.

We recently had a wife of a student inquire about this very sort of situation on the e-budo judo discussion board concerning George Paraulski and his phoney Seibukan organization. The story she told was a nightmare. It sounded more like the actions of a religous cult than a traditional dojo. It sounded as though the student in the dojo was genuinely brainwashed by this organization. Is the Seibukan a genuine koryu? Hell no! They fraudulently claim to be Tenshin Shinyo ryu but are really just bad pretenders with all sorts of invented "tradition" to mystify and convince the gullible of their legitimacy. I've never heard of a real koryu involving themselves in such silliness. They are usually too concerned with training for this hokey stuff. I'm sure there might be an exception out there but I've no direct experience with such a group.

There is obviously a misunderstanding in the west about koryu and ocassionally the few western koryu exponents have really stepped on their toes trying to explain themselves. Sometimes they are all a wealth in great information. Other times some of them come off as defensive know it alls or arrogant prigs. We need to remember that they are trying to explain something difficult to put into words which is also easily misunderstood. I was very lucky that Takamura Sensei lived in both worlds. He was able to provide me just enough insight to grasp the many differences because of his broad experience. Menkyo Kaiden or not I still have a lot to learn about this topic but my mind is open. l encourage everyone to rant or ask hard questions but I encourage all to patiently listen as well. This is a complicated subject and illuminating dialogue is the best way for all of us to understand one anothers experiences.

BTW, Meik, Diane and Ellis have done a hell of a good job in this arena with their books. Thanks


Toby Threadgill

gmellis
25th August 2001, 00:05
johan
Originally in the West we had a teacher-student relationship which, I think, compares very good to (at least when I understand correctly) what a teacher-student relationship looks like in a koryu, when you look at craftmanship. Any craft for that matter............. I guess the consumer society (anywhere in the world) is the biggest set-back to studying (or survival of) traditional arts. As a consumer you are constantly in competition with the producers of the goods. You want “it?Eat the best conditions, and since they are out to get your money they will go very far to give you your way (or at least make you think you got your way). I guess koryu and commercialism don’t go together.
__________________________________________________
Exactly! Those are excellent points! There are still many traditional crafts and apprenticeships in Europe and some parts of the Americas, and those people would make the easiest transition to a Koryu. You are also right in your opinion about the effects of the instant-gratification, dojo-shopping consumer society. I have a huge amount of respect for those people that maintain those old crafts even if they arent the most commerciable in the world. Does many European countries acknowledge their traditional masters of arts and crafts? And if so do they subsidize their incomes. I really think they should employ some kind of living treasure award for those people to draw more attention back to peoples' heritage.
__________________________________________________

he gave me a glimpse of the spirit of what a true master should be.
He made quite an impression on me, as a matter of fact when I think of mastering jujutsu (the art I practise) this man always comes to mind.
__________________________________________________

It it quite a moving experience to watch someone that is considered a master do their work isn't it? They have at the same time a kind of omnipotent calmness about them but at the same time you can see that their mind is as pointed and sharp as a needle. I love to watch masters work. I love to watch anybody who becomes so absorbed in their craft that they completely blend with what they are doing. While not a master, my dad usedd to love reconstructing old muskets and musket balls on our front lawn. During the summers on weekends I would just sit there and watch him for hours (interspersed with going to the wee wee and drinking Kool Aid) as he went about sanding, polishing, melting, molding. The look on his face as he went about his job was somehow calming. Quite contrasting considering he was a high-strung guy.
___________________________________________________


Toby
When I started this little journey I didn't know what a koryu was but I have learned the hard way as should be expected with me being a typically stubborn Texan. (Right Greg)
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Thats ok Toby. God will forgive you for being Texan, as long as you reduce your beef intake to 5 lbs a week. (Oh! That was low! Too low even for me.....almost! Hehe! Puttem up puttem up!)
__________________________________________________

Sometimes they are all a wealth in great information. Other times some of them come off as defensive know it alls or arrogant prigs.
__________________________________________________
I believe you mispelled my species. It is pig nor prig. (Hardy har har! Tha' be som good comedy relief it be. Arrr!) Be careful about such thing les' I whip out a can o' kuji-no-in on yo butt.

Well this has been fun gents, but I am off to get my nails painted and my chest waxed before ptactice. Today, we are learning how to apply and remove the Karate Nut-Protector 2000 in a smooth and sultry fashion so as to accentuate our ribbed abs and manly pecks (for the clueless see budo fun no???)

johan smits
26th August 2001, 19:21
Greg,
I got a similar experience. My father was a butcher who ran his own butchery. Since he worked alone he had to work long hours. I remember as a child, going down to the workshop in the evenings (we lived above it) and watch my father work. Even while working hard he displayed a sense of calmness and certainty. I can remember his movements while working, very precise and no waisted motions.

I don’t think many European countries subsidize the incomes of their traditional masters of arts and crafts. I know The Netherlands does’t. In a way that’s good because it keeps the number of craftsmen small so there is a healthy enviroment for those who do work and they can make a living of it. Some of the crafts are held in high regard while others although being truly a craft are not, some of them already fell victim to the “modernization” of their craft.

Toby,

No ranting or hard questions but here are some thoughts.

You say :

“We Westerner’s want quick superficial answers to deep questions and then expect to move on without letting the experience of learning really seep into us.”

Now would it be correct to say “we Westerners” or “we people from this day and age”. (I don’t know if a lot of Japanese people would have the correct attitude for learning koryu, maybe so maybe not) what I mean to say is we live our lives at a much faster pace than people in the past did. When we talk about learning, partly because methods of learning has changed, the processes involved have become shorter. Consequently the expectations of the public where it concerns learning changed.

We live in a goal-oriented society. Quick answers are considered good, letting the experience of learning seep into us is viewed upon as a luxury few can afford. For that matter I wonder if any koryupractitioners in the past could afford to let the experience of learning really seep into them. I guess they would be off the day next fighting a battle or something.

Now if I understand correctly koryu are not prone to change, this would mean their didactic methods are those from a period in which people lived their lives at a much slower pace than today. Maybe for people of today a prerequisite to learn any traditional art is to, first and foremoste, dehaste (for lack of a better word) themselves.


Although there is a certain shallowness in society which is gaining ground,I can see it when I look around me especially among younger people (we in the old days were not shallow at all - we were too busy chasing women) I wonder if this shallowness wasn’t also a part of the days gone by. It must have been.

For now.
Best Regards,


Johan Smits

gmellis
27th August 2001, 01:40
Johan,
I think your right. I was equating "Western" with modernized, post-industrial free capital (theoretically) society, which is not the case, as you have pointed out with modern Japanese people not necessarily being mentally willing or capable of doing Koryu (or from any industrialized country). It is probably that "rush" mentality fueled by the society we live in. And perhaps you are right about the shallowness always being around. I suppose those that push for change are always considered shallow, but somehow I feel the pace of technological change, and the following swift cultural change, is pushing humanity towards a miserable future (look how miserabl it is for many office peasants already!) , but then I hold to the ideals of the "PLAIN/simple living" movement of simplifying our lives and not letting technology do something for us that we could easily do ourselves with a little elbow grease. Anyway, I guess we can both agree that having masters of old crafts that require the ue of one's own muscles and intellect is a good thing.

Kit LeBlanc
27th August 2001, 07:14
Originally posted by johan smits


We live in a goal-oriented society. Quick answers are considered good, letting the experience of learning seep into us is viewed upon as a luxury few can afford. For that matter I wonder if any koryu practitioners in the past could afford to let the experience of learning really seep into them. I guess they would be off the day next fighting a battle or something.

Now if I understand correctly koryu are not prone to change, this would mean their didactic methods are those from a period in which people lived their lives at a much slower pace than today. Maybe for people of today a prerequisite to learn any traditional art is to, first and foremoste, dehaste (for lack of a better word) themselves.

Johan Smits

Well this calls a question to my mind then.....

Referring to the former quote, Liam Keeley's article in the last Koryu Books publication states that the koryu, back when they weren't KO-ryu, were probably transmitted in a much shorter period of time than occurs today, and gives the example of a Shindo Muso-ryu practitioner (who died in 1871, so *fairly* late as koryu go...), noting that his employers would have had far better things for him to do than spending long periods of time training in and teaching his art. He states that anyone being able to train even several times a week for more than a few months at a time, particularly in wartime, would have been a rarity.

It seems to me I have read other pieces where people in earlier eras were given menkyo kaiden in periods of time more like 6 months or a year rather than 10 or 20 years.

I believe Dr. Karl Friday has also pointed out here on E-Budo forums that essentially it is "wishful thinking" to believe that the koryu in modern form are trained/passed on in ways much at all like they were at the time of their founding. Dr. Friday has mentioned that the technical and tactical details of many of these arts as practiced today are at best speculation based on what we know of whatever traditional principles have been passed on through these traditions.

So then to the latter quote and my question...what really ARE the koryu as practiced today? Can they really be called "battlefield" or "combative" traditions? Or are they more like folk arts...... preserving certain elements of that classical warrior culture, as the tea ceremony does, for instance, but in an interpretation which is born of a different (later) time with later mores and values?

Kit LeBlanc

charlesl
27th August 2001, 09:53
Kit LeBlanc wrote:
So then to the latter quote and my question...what really ARE the koryu as practiced today? Can they really be called "battlefield" or "combative" traditions? Or are they more like folk arts...... preserving certain elements of that classical warrior culture, as the tea ceremony does, for instance, but in an interpretation which is born of a different (later) time with later mores and values?


I've seen this question batted around a lot in different places. So, what is a battlefield or combative tradition? It seems like you'd need to define what a combative tradition is before you could look at something and figure on how closely it would meet the standard.

What would be characteristics of a combat tradition? What would be examples? Also, I doubt that you could accurately generalize koryu as a whole as being such a beast. I'm thinking you'd have to take it on a case by case basis.

Another question I've seen tossed around, and one I think that goes well with asking if koryu are combative traditions, is whether they are applicable to modern combat. I've been told by some people that it's iffy as to whether koryu could be applicable to modern combat, others tell me it's just not, and I've been told by some that as soon as you deviate from the kata, you aren't practicing koryu anymore. Though I'm thinking when Musashi cut a guy down in a way that wasn't exactly in the kata he'd trained in, it was probably still koryu, even if he didn't know it at the time.


Kit LeBlanc wrote:
Referring to the former quote, Liam Keeley's article in the last Koryu Books publication states that the koryu, back when they weren't KO-ryu, were probably transmitted in a much shorter period of time than occurs today, and gives the example of a Shindo Muso-ryu practitioner (who died in 1871, so *fairly* late as koryu go...), noting that his employers would have had far better things for him to do than spending long periods of time training in and teaching his art. He states that anyone being able to train even several times a week for more than a few months at a time, particularly in wartime, would have been a rarity.

It seems to me I have read other pieces where people in earlier eras were given menkyo kaiden in periods of time more like 6 months or a year rather than 10 or 20 years.


I don't know much about Japan in the 1800's. I am thinking that back in an earlier time, say the 1500's or 1600's, that if I'm a Samurai-guy, and I've seen a few generations of warfare and violence, I'm gonna be training a lot more than just several times a week for a few months. And if I've got a son, HE's gonna be training way more than that, because these are skills and abilities that can both make him successful, and probably save his ass in times of conflict.

Ha, take that! A little ranting of my own...

Crazy in Hawaii,
-Charles Lockhart

Kit LeBlanc
27th August 2001, 15:35
Originally posted by charlesl
[B]

I don't know much about Japan in the 1800's. I am thinking that back in an earlier time, say the 1500's or 1600's, that if I'm a Samurai-guy, and I've seen a few generations of warfare and violence, I'm gonna be training a lot more than just several times a week for a few months. And if I've got a son, HE's gonna be training way more than that, because these are skills and abilities that can both make him successful, and probably save his ass in times of conflict.

Ha, take that! A little ranting of my own...

Crazy in Hawaii,
-Charles Lockhart

I think that was the whole point of Mr. Keeley's comment....you wouldn't be training that much because you simply would not have the time. You also had to have permission to travel around the country in order to seek martial training, which I am sure was not granted if the lord had something better for you to do.

On the flip side, would you really need to? Could we not say a) you grew up in that culture/society, so maybe what takes a lot of time to pass on today as foundational in the classical traditions were already "known" to you by virtue of growing up in that environment? b) you were probably practicing much simpler arts without a lot of later accretions and additions? c) you went out and saw how the stuff worked in real encounters and could weed out a lot of superfluous stuff from your training?

Sorry guys, I don't want the thread to drift too far.

Kit

carl mcclafferty
27th August 2001, 16:00
Folks:
I've been friends with Otake Sensei for years and visit to train with him at the Shinbukan every chance I can get, study SGR with Yamada Sensei and am in the Kokusai Batto Do Renmei with Nakamura Sensei. If you just keep your mouth shut, work hard and follow the rules-life is good. If you don't want to do that you're free to leave and those guys won't care. I believe Otake Sensei says, "I'll take someone, but I won't chase anyone". But I've always thought that was the way life was regardless of what you were doing.

I've found out in the past 6 years that I've been naive about it. Seems things have really changed in the arts as far as attitude, without me noticing until it was changed. But I plan to just keep pushing myself and not pay any attention to "those people". Guess I'm just getting long in the tooth.

Carl McClafferty

johan smits
27th August 2001, 22:19
Greg,

It is so true what you say. I try to be more into “being” than into “becoming”, simple and plain
living generates a feeling of well-being. But sometimes it’s difficult. In a society where every art is seen as a possible form of managementtraining and therefore potential moneymaker, and in which it’s members are primarily judged by how much money they make I find it, to be honest increasingly difficult to stick to my own principles.
Also the martial arts (the modern) fell victim to commercialsm and to ego, when I speak to fellow jujutsuteachers the only thing they seem interested in is how much students you have. Every now and then I talk to some iaidoka, traveling on the same train. Every time they tell me they have obtained the next dan and that they were asked to be a member of the examination committee, they never tell me how they’re doing in training.
I really think that is too bad because it’s exactly these kind of arts which could be used as a counterpart in an increasingly shallow society.
Maybe that’s for a part an explanation for the interest people in the West have for koryu. They are drawn towards martial arts and maybe they feel koryu are in a way “untainted” in comparison with the arts they practice.


Kit,

Doesn’t it sound logical to assume that the curricula of koryu were, in the past a lot smaller and that things were taught on a “need to be able to perform” base? Just as people in modern comparable jobs. For example, while policeofficers in my country get a basic training in jujutsu, baton and firearms, they are not being trained in knifefighting (special forces are maybe an exeption, I don’t know).
I have really no idea where I read this but I read that kesa giri was the most used swordtechnique on the battlefield. It does a lot of damage, it is easy to perform and can be learned in a short time. I wonder how many jujutsutechniques the average footsoldier during the warring periods would have had at his disposal. My guess is if any it must have been only a handful.

Best for now,

Johan Smits

MarkF
28th August 2001, 09:46
It seems to get even smaller when you approximate the number of times people were close enough to use their swords. There was a discussion about that a while ago, and just like today, up close and personal is the very last resort. Put on the armor, and well, the techniques may be counted on one hand.

I don't know the body count as to how many one had to practice the sword on, but I'd guess very few.

Funny thing is, when you examine combative sports such as judo, karate, boxing, and wrestling, most go right back to basics and use what works. And those usually can quite easily be counted on one hand.


Mark

johan smits
28th August 2001, 13:33
Mark,

I guess you're right. You could say in a way it's become a full circle. Koryu as a an allround art for the battlefield probably used only a few very reliable jujutsutechniques. When you look at judo as a specialized art, they have specialized to such a degree that they also use a very few reliable techniques.

Some koryu were never intended for the battlefield. They were taught to civilians to defend themselves. Some of them originated on the battlefield and others were founded by civilians.
When you look at several jujutsu schools (schools which fall into the category of koryu) it strikes me they have a relatively small curriculum. Between thirty and maybe sixty kata, that doesn't seem an awful lot.

Thinking about it, maybe the classification in "old schools" and "new schools"isn't so great to work with. It says in general something about since when the tradition has been around. Maybe it would be easier to understand and discuss koryu if there would be a more refind classification. Such as original intend or whatever.

Best,

Johan Smits

Sheridan
30th August 2001, 03:25
I don't want to get off on a rant here...... but well, read the damn book! First off, I'm no Koryu guru, I have no teaching licenses and frankly my techniques sucks. I have been practicing long enough to inherit the Koryu attitude however. It's almost impossible to put it into words, and quite honestly, much better have already done so. For sharp definitions on what Koryu was, is and might become, go to Koryu.com and order yourselves Draeger's Classical Bujutsu (was), Classical Budo (is) and Modern Bujutsu and Budo (might be). These questions have already been addressed by a very competent scholar, even if they are incredibly dry reading. To really get a feel for how the Koryu can touch you personally, pick up one of Dave Lowry's well written works. Of course the Skosses and others in the know hang around here and sometimes get rude when some twit asks the same question for the umpteenth time, they've put years of their lives into writting books for our perusal. US! That's you, me and our dogs too! But instead of reading them and letting the learning sink in as it was so aptly put earlier on in the thread we want mental masturbation. I'd be pretty pissed off too.

And that my friends, is a Koryu rant.

charlesl
30th August 2001, 05:48
Sheridan wrote:
"I don't want to get off on a rant here...... but well, read the damn book! ...
... But instead of reading them and letting the learning sink in as it was so aptly put earlier on in the thread we want mental masturbation. I'd be pretty pissed off too."


Uh, not sure about other people, but as an example, I do buy and read these books. And re-read them (my wife is pretty stingy with my book-buying budget ;o), and look things up in them, with fairly signifigant frequency. Most people I know who practice koryu also tend toward this practice (but, I really don't know many people who train), and know quite a few who don't train in koryu that also read them.

But while I consider the authors to be well-informed, in the know, experienced, pretty reliable, and generally trust what they write, I don't necesarily consider them to be the final word or the only possibility. And sometimes somebody posts something that makes me consider a different point of view. Like Kit, bringing up Liam Keeley's article. I went back and re-read it, looking at it from a different point of view, focusing on a different angle. Is this mental masturbation? Maybe to you, not to me. I've got no life. I enjoy discussing and re-discussing things, and sometimes picking up new ideas that I may have missed. Things that bore me are when for the umpteenth time somebody posts without using their full name (as per the rules) and then somebody(ies sometimes) post reminders to use their full names. Because then I come in and read these posts and feel cheated for getting all hot and bothered that somebody may have posted something interesting.

Hey Kit, ok, I (started) re-reading Keeley's article, and I get your meaning. One question though, he keeps using the term bushi, instead of samurai. Maybe my understanding of the term bushi isn't that great/complete. I had read that the term bushi referred to soldiers/warriors in general, not just the samurai class. Could this imply that Keeley's meaning in this context was that the non-samurai bushi didn't actually train a lot as they had other obligations, but leaving open that the samurai would/could have trained more? Or am I just wrong about the term bushi, or its context in this case?

-Charles Lockhart, still crazy, still in Hawaii

Sheridan
30th August 2001, 06:21
My apologies to the board. Had to change e-mail addresses and I didn't realise that all the fields had been reset in my profile. I stand corrected.

Next time you're going to jump on the signatures bandwagon, please ignore the senior member and number of posts thing in the top corner. Again. It's meaningless.:nono:

And as for mental masturbation, I was infering that the western goal-oriented outlook is what most martial artists nowadays want (and pay for). Finding another angle on the Koryu or any martial art is a very important thing in my mind, I agree with you one-hundred percent. In fact it's a shame more people don't have that outlook.

PS: My real name is PJ Popie.:D

"If I had anything intelligent or just plain cool to say, I'd put it here."
Michael S. Lucas

glad2bhere
30th August 2001, 19:39
Dear Folks:

I had submitted a question on the TSKSR thread and now find myself wanting to ask the same question here.

On occassion I find some reference book, citation or recommendation and I will ask about the authenticity, veracity or accuracy of the work. Not a few times I get some pretty sound opinions based on no small amount of experience. Well and good.

But I can't help but entertain the idea that people such as M Skoss, Dr. Bodiford, Dr Friday and many others must somehow be dropping the ball as I have yet to identify any cases where issues have been resolved. With all of the fire-power that can be visited on these threads how come there are never any definitive answers regarding what consititutes authentic TSKSR, what is the legitimate succession of the Daito-ryu, what constitutes a Koryu, what is the nature of efficacy in Martial training or the role of character development in following a martial lifestyle?

Lets suppose for a moment that people such as myself read all the material that is available (good and bad) and we absorb and act upon that educational experience. Can I conclude that MA experience in the US and elsewhere will be somehow improved? If so, in what way will it be improved? People will have sold more books and magazines, and knowledgeable individuals will be identified as such. I am curious to know just what it is that has been accomplished by all of this hand-wringing and mental masturbation. Its not that I have a problem with discussion and productive exchange of information (or even productive criticism if it comes to that). I just wonder if the preponderance of communications on these BB have become nothing more than talking for its own sake?

Best Wishes,
Bruce

Meik Skoss
30th August 2001, 20:18
B. Sims wrote: "But I can't help but entertain the idea that people such as M. Skoss, Dr. Bodiford, Dr. Friday and many others must somehow be dropping the ball as I have yet to identify any cases where issues have been resolved. With all of the fire-power that can be visited on these threads how come there are never any definitive answers regarding what consititutes authentic TSKSR, what is the legitimate succession of the Daito-ryu, what constitutes koryu, what is the nature of efficacy in martial training or the role of character development in following a martial lifestyle?"

Karl, Will and I are dropping the ball? How do you figure? Seems to me that, if/when people ask reasonable questions, we attempt to answer those to the best of our ability. I can't speak for any of the other folks, but I've no wish to become involved in silliness or bulls--t threads such as what's "authentic" this-or-that ryu, who's on first w/ re: A-ryu or B-ha, etc., etc. I reckon we all have some pretty cogent opinions about these issues, and I will give you my own thoughts on some of these in a bit, but that's what you have teachers for, no? They can/should answer technical questions. If you don't have a qualified instructor, then what good does any of this continuous posting about trivial issues serve, other than that of idle curiosity?

Okay, what's "legitimate" in terms of a particular ryu? E.g., Katori Shinto-ryu.: if one does nyumon and keppan with Iizasa S., then I believe you are a "member" of the ryu. Otherwise, one is merely studying and/or practising the techniques of a particular system. Sugino Yoshio S. was also a legitimate member of the ryu, but he taught independently for many years and was not, as far as I've heard, a fully licensed exponent of that system. He was a very nice man, and a wonderful example of what budo does for people in terms of developing a truly beautiful character.

Nonetheless, Sugino wasn't an inheritor of the transmission. So, those people who study with his students, be they Hatakeyama, Katie Noad, Paddy McCarthy, etc., et alia, are doing technique. But they don't *belong* to the ryu, unless and until they become Iizasa S.'s students. Yes, I know that Otake S. does the teaching, but everybody in the ryu is Iizasa S.'s student. Why? Because he is the headmaster. End of story.

Likewise, for people who are training in Shinto (or Shindo, if you prefer that spelling) Muso-ryu, one is *not* a member unless and until one receives the okuiri-sho. That's how the Shinto Muso-ryu determines membership. E.g., I had already gone through the complete system and been practising okuden waza a number of years before I received okuiri, and *then* I was a part of the ryu, one little "drop" in a very long "stream" (and, boy, did that feel good!).

Who is the "legitimate" successor to Daito- (or any other) ryu? In the case of Daito-ryu, calling anybody the soke is hard to justify, since Takeda Sokaku was himself only Somubu-cho or, perhaps, shihan. (The same is true with Shinto Muso-ryu: there is NO such thing as a "soke," merely teachers who have been given menkyo kaiden and are each, in and of themselves, inheritors of the SMR tradition.)

As for the other questions, why do you think we know? You think we have all the answers or something? We're all of us just bozos on the budo bus and there's no point in looking to us for answers regarding all the deep and important issues. You're not studying with us, and we're not your instructors, so it's really not proper to go there. P'raps, if you communicate with someone on a personal basis, that individual may respond to such questions, but why do you think we would want to spend the time in a public forum. We also have lives, and there's just no point in filling up bandwidth.

Whew! Okay, my little rant is over and I feel better now. (If there is anything you want to ask *me*, by the way, contact me off the forum, directly, and I'll do my best to respond.)

Hope this helps.

charlesl2
30th August 2001, 20:24
But I can't help but entertain the idea that people such as M Skoss, Dr. Bodiford, Dr Friday and many others must somehow be dropping the ball as I have yet to identify any cases where issues have been resolved.


I don't really know any of these people, but I can't see how they could be "dropping the ball." I doubt that it's their duty or responsibility to go around resolving all these issues your talking about. They seem to know a lot of stuff, and they share it, in my thinking because they enjoy sharing knowledge, not because they have to (though I could be wrong, maybe they all swore blood oaths to cram information about classical Japanese martial ways down the throats of every earthling they come across, but I'm thinking that idea's got a little too much Doctor Evil in it).


With all of the fire-power that can be visited on these threads how come there are never any definitive answers regarding what consititutes authentic TSKSR, what is the legitimate succession of the Daito-ryu, what constitutes a Koryu, what is the nature of efficacy in Martial training or the role of character development in following a martial lifestyle?


Maybe I'm misunderstanding a lot of the things that I read, both in the books these people present and in e-budo and other places, but I swear I run across similar, if not identical, definitions of things like what constitutes a Koryu, the effectiveness of training, impact on character development, etc. That other people may dispute, disagree with, or only partially agree with their answers doesn't make them any less definitive. As for ryu specific politics and stuff, maybe they figure it's nobody's business, so they just don't address it, which is pretty much what I would do.


Lets suppose for a moment that people such as myself read all the material that is available (good and bad) and we absorb and act upon that educational experience. Can I conclude that MA experience in the US and elsewhere will be somehow improved? If so, in what way will it be improved? People will have sold more books and magazines, and knowledgeable individuals will be identified as such. I am curious to know just what it is that has been accomplished by all of this hand-wringing and mental masturbation. Its not that I have a problem with discussion and productive exchange of information (or even productive criticism if it comes to that). I just wonder if the preponderance of communications on these BB have become nothing more than talking for its own sake?


As to all that, well, I dont' know. I'm interested in modern martial arts, classical martial ways, etc. Besides training in them, I read about them, discuss them a lot, etc. Fact: I think that little of the reading and discussing I do outside of my training group have impact on my training, particularly here at e-budo. We don't talk about technique or any other (what I consider to be) applicable stuff, so not much of it improves my technique, my zanshin, etc. So maybe it is just a bunch of mental masturbation, maybe I'm just a big mental jerk-off (probably just a big jerk though), but every once in a while, sifting through the static of knowledge, I find something that does make my training better, because it makes me stop and think about my training, and reconsider what's really going on with it.

Uhm, I'm rambling, best to shut my trap and say,

Aloha

-Charles Lockhart
Honolulu, HI

charlesl2
30th August 2001, 20:26
Dammit, Mr. Skoss, you beat me by 6 whole minutes.

Aloha,

-Charles Lockhart
Honolulu, HI

Nathan Scott
30th August 2001, 21:09
PS: My real name is PJ Popie.

HEY HEY HEY!! Nobody says the "P" word.

**

BTW, if anyone is interested in the status of the Daito ryu debate...

1) I'm waiting for Stan Pranin to fax me the rest of Kondo s. response. I'll take a whack at translating it, and put it online here and on
aikidojournal.com. Then we'll have Kondo s. full statement.

2) The SAD group has reopened their BBS, and seem to be inviting us back for round two. Again, I'd like to have the full response from Kondo s.
finished first so we know what we're dealing with.

3) I need to find time to upload as much of the previous archived discussion to the SAD area of the aikijujutsu forum here. That will take some time.

4) When we've hashed out a new set of questions with SAD, I intend to draw some conclusions and post them publicly - not that they will be the
final word - but maybe people will be in a better position to draw their own conclusions.

As Mr. Skoss points out, one of the biggest points I've come up with regarding Daito ryu succession issue recently is the fact that "DR
Aikijujutsu/Jujutsu" did not use the soke/iemoto system. Takeda Sokaku used the titles "somucho" [general affiars director] (Somubu-cho? :D)
and "honbucho" [headquarters director]. These titles were used by both Sokaku and Tokimune when referring to DR aikijujutsu. Titles like
"dai-sensei" and "soke dairi" are irrelevant to this specific issue.

Tokimune s. adopted the iemoto system and soke title for his modern adaptation of Daito ryu, which he named DR Aikibudo. So it is a little
strange that the SAD group seems to think that the soke designation should apply to all the lines/branches of Daito ryu. It only refers to
the Aikibudo that Tokimune s. founded.

Anyway, more on that later. That's the score so far.

Regards,

glad2bhere
30th August 2001, 21:10
Dear Charles:

Before I comment on you post let me take a moment to thank M Skoss for his input. His response very neatly addresses exactly the point I had wanted to make in MY post and I am very grateful for his investment of time and effort. Many thanks, M Skoss.

"....I don't really know any of these people, but I can't see how they could be "dropping the ball." I doubt that it's their duty or responsibility to go around resolving all these issues your talking about..."

And herein lies the difference. You see I believe that a significant part of being a teacher (MA or otherwise) is providing the information and skills that help people to make the sort of discriminations that M Skoss made in his post.( BTW: the phrase "dropping the ball" was qualified so I hope people are not walking away from my earlier post believing that I have accused the individuals I mentioned as having actually abdicated their responsibilities as leaders in the MA community.) But, yes, Charles, I DO believe that such authorities have a responsibility to help the rest of us learn how to sort out the wheat from the chaff and show us how to do it if it comes to that. I likewise believe that it is a mistake to let threads go on blindly moving in intellectual circles, to not confront individuals who knowingly propagate erroneous material and not to teach folks how to locate material which will enrich their MA experience. I have so far witnessed at least three occasions where individuals have cited Dr Bodifords excellent contribution on the matter of Succession in Ryuha with a special treatment of the nature of "soke" in support of some position that they were making. There is something very good happening there and something that I think we need a whole lot more of.

Best Wishes,
Bruce

Henrik Jonsson
30th August 2001, 21:33
Originally posted by glad2bhere
But, yes, Charles, I DO believe that such authorities have a responsibility to help the rest of us learn how to sort out the wheat from the chaff and show us how to do it if it comes to that.


Then you should sue them, if they fail to deliver. Stop this
talking and drag them all to court.


*sarcasm off*

Really. Do you really believe they have a moral obligation
to drop whatever they are doing and reply to someone
curious about 'this here cool Koryu-thing'?

Be happy and grateful for the pearls of wisdom we do get
for free. Please don't make demands of what they should
be doing with their time. It's not very polite, IMHO.

Maybe I mis-read you. Maybe you meant something else.
In that case, I apologize.

/Henrik

charlesl2
30th August 2001, 21:55
And herein lies the difference. You see I believe that a significant part of being a teacher (MA or otherwise) is providing the information and skills that help people to make the sort of discriminations that M Skoss made in his post.( BTW: the phrase "dropping the ball" was qualified so I hope people are not walking away from my earlier post believing that I have accused the individuals I mentioned as having actually abdicated their responsibilities as leaders in the MA community.) But, yes, Charles, I DO believe that such authorities have a responsibility to help the rest of us learn how to sort out the wheat from the chaff and show us how to do it if it comes to that. I likewise believe that it is a mistake to let threads go on blindly moving in intellectual circles, to not confront individuals who knowingly propagate erroneous material and not to teach folks how to locate material which will enrich their MA experience. I have so far witnessed at least three occasions where individuals have cited Dr Bodifords excellent contribution on the matter of Succession in Ryuha with a special treatment of the nature of "soke" in support of some position that they were making. There is something very good happening there and something that I think we need a whole lot more of.


Hey Bruce,

I guess we just look at things differently, hope you don't hold that against me. To me, the debt between my teacher and I is unidirectional, I completely owe him so much for taking his time to teach me, and for having the patience to put up with me. I can't imagine feeling that he has to do that. If I was a teacher and somebody came to me with the attitude that I owed them my knowledge, I wouldn't even bother to laugh in their face. This isn't a Western style academic institution where I'm paying tuition and there's a contract between the school and I that they owe me an education.

I've read of some koryu teachers who, when confronted with a student who they see as no longer worthy of their time and knowledge, simply turn the flow off, and the student is basically stuck with what he has up to that point, and has no one to lead him or her any farther. I know of modern budo teachers who do the same thing. Probably you'd see that as unfair, but I think it's very just. That's just my opinion though, and probably we all know what those are like.

All of the people I know involved with koryu bujutsu EARNED their knowledge, usually the hard way. I don't expect them to provide me with shortcuts. I expect to train, and think about my training, and discuss it, and gain deeper and deeper insights. I think it's the stuff that the teacher's don't teach directly, but that the student must figure out on his/her own that is more significant. That is probably the greatest pearl of wisdom that my teacher ever gave me, one that he says took decades for him to figure out. I owe him big time for that alone.

-Charles Lockhart
Honolulu, HI

Kit LeBlanc
31st August 2001, 03:11
I'd have to go with Charles on this.

I think the only *responsibility* that people like Meik and the good doctors Bodiford and Friday have is to their OWN teachers and students, period. Certainly the doctors probably have similar feelings of responsibility in disseminating academically sound history, but that is responsibility of a different vein, it just happens that it is related to their budo.

That any of these folks *owe* a bunch of people anonymously posting on a martial arts bulletin board is strained at best. Simply because they may have a strong knowledge and a great deal of experience in a particular area does not mean they are bound shed light to all the world, certainly not for people they do not know and have no relationship with.

We sometimes are lucky for their indulgence. In some cases they may simply feel like joining the e-conversation and bringing educated points of view to the matter. Maybe their participation is based on impulse...they read a lot of half-baked and half-cocked ideas being bandied about, or see people making clearly uninformed ASSumptions and it just gets them chomping to address the more glaring inaccuracies being spewed. I don't know.

Their students, I am sure, get tested. After being tested in many ways, some overt, some not, they deign to teach them whatever it is they choose. The students earn that right, and can as well earn their way right out of that right. There is an agreement on the part of both, one to learn, one to teach, and thus the boundaries of that relationship are cemented. NONE of this can occur over the Internet. While Meik or the doctors may respond to a private e-mail from time to time it does not create a special relationship, they again are good enough to indulge us and pass on only what information they choose to. Simply asking for or being hungry for that knowledge does not make us any more special or earn us the right to have it.

A similar issue can be brought up about Bad Budo.....certainly there may be an overriding sense of responsibility in passing on information that certain teachers or a certain school may be abusive or fraudulent, but how about the hokey, wannabe "traditional" martial arts schools with people wearing bright red hakama and electric blue keikogi with yellow stripes down the sleeves and practicing self-invented styles with names like Ken-Tachi Ryoo?

I don't think that legitimately knowledgable instructors have ANY responsibility to educate the public about such schools. If the students of those schools, or those interested in them are worthy of the REAL thing they will earn the right and come to know the truth by their own research (and reading posts like Meik's) and experience. It may be painful for them to one day learn that their teacher lives in a fantasy Sam-r-eye Boo Do world, or that their legitimately skilled teacher may not be a bona fide member of the world famous ryuha they practice, but they must then make their own decisions based on the information that is available. Good basic knowledge on such matters can be had by simply reading a few books or typing in the name of a school on a search engine. It does not take very long to weed out the wheat from the chaff, particularly when we have the already published works that Draeger, Skoss and Friday have indulged us with.

Kit

johan smits
31st August 2001, 20:03
Although I agree in general with what Kit writes about responsability, amongst other things that Mr. And Mrs. Skoss, doctors Bodiford and Friday let’s not forget some other pillars like Ellis Amdur, Dave Lowry don’t “owe” a bunch of people posting on a martial arts board.
That is true, but the above mentioned people weare two hats, they are both martial arts teachers and publishers or published writers. So we should look at the matter from two points of view. As martial arts teachers they don’t “owe” the general public anything. Absolutely true.

On the other hand when you publish books (or information whatever the form) you start a “chain of reaction”, you start some form of relationship with your readers (or your customers).
With this relationship also comes a certain responsability. The responsability to go one step further (that is when you are not just in it for the money) and the above mentioned people do take that -one step further- since they participate in the discussions on this board.

With vacation.

Best Regards,

Johan Smits

glad2bhere
3rd September 2001, 15:59
Dear Charles, Kit, et al:

".....I guess we just look at things differently, hope you don't hold that against me. To me, the debt between my teacher and I is unidirectional, I completely owe him so much for taking his time to teach me, and for having the patience to put up with me. I can't imagine feeling that he has to do that. If I was a teacher and somebody came to me with the attitude that I owed them my knowledge, I wouldn't even bother to laugh in their face. This isn't a Western style academic institution where I'm paying tuition and there's a contract between the school and I that they owe me an education. ...."

I hope that I have not confused the example for the arguement here. Please know that I too support what you are saying in the narrower view. Within the context of interpersonal relations I don't believe that the teacher is mandated to produce information-on-demand to the student. There are, of, course, protocols and guidelines to be followed. Perhaps where the discussion may take an incorrect turn is that I believe that the Koryu owe a greater responsibility to the community a significant portion of which IS the manner in which the next generation of torch-bearers are educated.

It has been my experience that a great number of the next generation are taken to task for the infantile, or self-agrandizing, or un-informed manner in which they pursue their examination or study of martial tradition (of whatever nationality or ethnic group). There are a lot of folks whose take on Korean martial tradition, for instance, suffers from a simple understanding of Korean history and culture. For my part I suppose I could spend my time chiding them for their ingnorance--- or--- I could work to teach them how to do better reasearch, identify better resources, and recognize most authentic and accurate information.

In the Korean martial tradition the O-gae identifies a warriors deportment as not only being one of valor and bravery in battle but also supportive of ones' nation, community and family at the same time. I am sure that the Japanese Bu-Do traditions as espoused and supported by Koryu arts has much the same belief systen, ne? From this position, then, are the tenents of such a belief system being truely honored by taking a more critical and restrictive approach to the subject?

I don't know if this helps to clarify my position, but I share the following as a way of hopefully making my view on this a bit clearer.

When I lecture my students regarding Hapkido I identify myself as a teacher and state to the students that I see my job as one of working myself OUT OF A JOB. By this I mean that if I am doing my job well and corrrectly at some point the student will be able to frame both the questions and the answers for themselves and have the skills to make the most of their studies on their own. Done correctly, the time should come when my students no longer need me but are able to pursue their studies on thier own(perhaps with the odd guidance from me in the future but certainly at their request). I occasionally get the impression that a great number of martial arts intructors and teachers actually work to foster a dependence of the student on a particular school, art or teacher. I think this is a detriment to the martial tradition where this happens and have a hard time understanding how one would support such a position.

I will be the first to say that the Korean and Japanese martial traditions while most probably related somewhere in their past have taken very different pathes and I hope that nothing I have said is taken as a criticism of any particulat tradition or approach. I would certainly like to hear more about how the contributors see the educational nature of the arts they practice, though.

Best Wishes,
Bruce

Joe Kras
7th September 2001, 19:27
For those who haven't seen the listing in the "Seminars" section, I thought it would be appropriate to alert you to the fact that Meik Skoss, William Bodiford, Karl Friday, Ellis Amdur, Dave Lowry and others will all be presenting at the Budo Symposium in St. Louis on October 19, 20, and 21.

This would be a great opportunity for those who want to ask them follow up questions in person to do so. I'm looking forward to meeting and listening to many of these people who've I've never met before.

Details on the symposium can be found at <http://www.budosymposium.org/>.

All of the presenters as well as those putting on the symposium are donating their time to this endeavor. It promises to be one of the biggest concentrations of talent in this area that I'm aware of.

Early registration discount ends September 20th.

Regards (promo mode off)
Joe Kras
St. Louis, MO USA