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Mike Collins
24th August 2001, 17:13
This will be the third BBS I've posted this on. Not because I have a great need to see what I've written, but because there is a distinctly different "flavor" to each of them. I have the greatest hopes for E-Budo:

I have a teacher who I very much respect. He has said, more than once "A teacher should be very severe, on himself" to learn and be able to teach Aikido as well as possible. It is because I really believe that, that I have chosen, at this point in my life, not to teach.
My question (though it's less a question than a topic of conversation, I think- I've already kind of got my opinion):

How severe should a student be on him/herself in learning and practicing this art, in light of other commitments and interests? Many of us have jobs, families, careers, school, hobbies, religions etcetera. Is there such a thing as a balanced amount of severity in training both in quantity and quality?

How much weight should we put on our trials, physical and spiritual, in continuing to practice?

This is much less about technical training than spiritual forging.

Let me know your thoughts.

cguzik
24th August 2001, 18:46
Mike,

A big part of why I train is to learn how to bring aiki into my life as a whole. Part of why I practice aikido so that I can carry a balanced and centered life in harmony with my environment.

When I was living in San Jose, I was also studying kyudo. When I talked to my kyudo teacher about my need to return to Tulsa for family reasons, and how disappointed I felt that I would not be able to continue practicing kyudo in Oklahoma because of the lack of proximity to a teacher, she told me that to take care of my family here was also part of my practice, and was not separate from my training.

I am fortunate that there is a good aikido group here and that I have been able to continue practicing aikido with them. But, my teenage son has required a lot of attention recently and this prevents me from getting on the mat as much as I used to. My family knows how important my training is though, and this knowledge combined with my desire to be around and take care of things at home sort of makes for a counterbalancing effect.

While I may never be in a position to teach in a formal setting, I find that in my daily life I continuously feel responsible for quietly setting an example that accords with my own standards (which may not be very high by other's standards -- but that does not lessen the responsibility I feel in the context of my own).

From this standpoint, I understand the issue of being severe with oneself as a teacher. For me it's a question of being committed to the path I choose, and displaying that commitment in my actions. I guess what I'm saying is that maybe we're all teachers one way or another, and that to be severe in your training you don't have to spend six hours a day on the mat.

Mike Collins
24th August 2001, 18:58
Chris,

That pretty accurately reflects my feelings also. The benefits of Aikido training should include the training to be present in our daily lives, and make the wise decisions.

Sincere, present training is wonderful, and as a practice it is full of spiritual benefit.

I also think that making Aikido the focal point of ones' life, if they chose not to teach the art, may be a disservice to Aikido, as well as to the individual.

If Aikidoists were a bunch of happy, laughing, responsible, moral, decent people, even if maybe they were unable to beat up a group of thugs intent on hurting them, cause let's face it, how often is that a real problem, then maybe Osensei would feel like his life's work was worthwhile.

No?

Mike Collins
24th August 2001, 19:04
Oh yeah, and knowing the fact that you've chosen the path you've chosen, rather than wanting the position of being a teacher, even though you've not made the decision to do the work, is critically important.

There are more than enough mediocre people teaching things in this universe.

dainippon99
24th August 2001, 21:11
my sensei has always said that if you learn the priciples of aikido,you can learn it while sitting on a mountain top. (its a quote from some shihan, he forgets which.) i think a student has to always study, no matter where he is. even if its just meditation on the techniques. they should be severe on themselves, but not unduly so.

ALWAYS STUDY!

JimmyCrow
24th August 2001, 23:08
I am a 34 year old self employed, single man. In some ways I am lucky because I have the opportunity to train 4 days a week for several hours each day. Now some may say that I am too severe. There are others that would say not severe enough. I fell, for me anyway, this is just enough.

I do take on some teaching responsibility as I fell it is the duty of every upper level student to teach in some capacity. Please understand that this is my opinion and I make no judgment about any person who chooses not to teach or doesn't have the time to. As I stated before I have a schedule that allows me to devote more time to Aikido than most people who have a families and other commitments . So I believe by accepting more responsibility and by teaching lower ranks I am being severe on myself in training.

I have found that repetition, relaxation and reflection help me to understand Aikido better. I have also come to realize that teaching is a wonderful way to gain an even deeper understanding of the art. I learn at least one new thing each time I teach even the most basic technique. It amazes me what incredible discoveries you can make when you labor to explain a technique to a beginner in Aikido. By taking the time to explain something in such a way that everyone, not just yourself, can understand you are truly striving to not only make your Aikido better but all those around you better as well. The rewards are great and the level of understanding is amazing. Maybe this is what your Sensei meant by saying teachers should be severe on themselves. l don't doubt he was also referring to making sacrifices and being on the mat as much as possible.

As a student I believe that severity in training can be as simple as committing to train a set amount of time each week and sticking to it. The amount of time you train could be as little 1 hour per week as long as your time is well spent. I think everyone would agree that just living up to your set training schedule can be quite sever. Just don't use your other responsibility as an excuse not to train. If you have family that requires a great deal of your time then that can not be helped. Obviously you are being very severe on yourself in your pursuit of being a good father and a good husband and that is probably the most noblest pursuit of all. If you can only spare a few hours a week to train, then for you that is severe.

O'sensei hoped that his Aikido would unite the world, not divide families. Be true to yourself. If you know you should be training, and have time to do it, then don't make excuses. My Father gave me a very valuable piece of advice once. He said “Nothing good comes easy. If you have to work hard for something you really want it must be good, and certainly will be worth it.” I say these words to myself every time I get on my bike and head for the dojo. They really come in handy on the days I would rather be drinking a beer while sitting on the couch. It's strange, but I always seem to have the best workouts on those days.

I make no judgments on anyone and only offer my opinion. I do however commended those that find a balance in their personal, spiritual and physical life.

Jimmy Crow

Kyukage
25th August 2001, 20:28
For me, the art is my life, and my life is for my art. I believe it is my duty to wake up every morning with the task of ending my day just a bit better in the art than when I woke. To wake the next morning, I shoudl be a bit better than the day before. I train daily (a few hours each day) with only the most dire of circumstances interfering in this.

Everything I do is somehow a reflection of my arts. When engaging in virtually every task, I ask myself "How will this make me a better swordsman?" if it can not, it generally isn't worth doing. If it can, I do it with zeal. If I can adjust my perception of the task, or modify the task itself to accomodate my martial training, I do that.

The arts I have learned are preacious to me - more so than any other single thing, and the reality is that in my life, my first duty and responsibility is to care for myself. If I do not, I can not take care of my further responsibilities, and I will be useless to them - I will have failed my charges. This is not a selfish "me first" thing, but rather a responsibility.

My second duty is to my art. This is self imposed. I love the sword, and I love the sword arts. Working with my swords is better than sex - no kidding, no cliche. Again, my second duty is to the arts I practice. I am responsible for their representation, the maintainance of their sanctity as an artform, their correct application, their transmission to my students, and for the image I portray to the public concerning them.

My third responsibility is to my students. In a very real and binding (though not litteral) sense, they are my children, my brothers, my sisters, and my loved ones. When I have a student, if they learn that is great, but if they fail to learn a thing I am teaching, that is my fault - not theirs. I am the expereinced one, and it is me who must transmit the information in a way that can be understood by my students. If they can not learn, get frustrated, or loose focus, that is my responsibility.

All else comes after these three.

Someone mentioned earlier something about other comitments - work, family, etc. Personally, I see work as a neccessity, not a priority. It enables me to work with my swords in relative comfort, but it does not take precident over my art. My career is much less important to me than my art. Family? My loved ones know how I feel about my swords. I am lucky that they love me and know where my priorities lie. I don't forsee a situation whaere I would be forced to choose between the two (loved ones and the swords) but I'd have to choose the swords - anyone who can't accept my swords as a part of me can't accept my right eye, my left hand, my lungs, or any other part of me. Any woman who asked me to lay down my swords doesn't love me - she loves an ideal that isn't there. I am the stone - appreciate me for being the stone, but do not sculpt and carve me into a vase. I'm not a vase, after all, but a stone.

I push myself quite a bit, but I love it. It is wonderful and marvelous, and all encompassing.

Severe? I suppose so. Harsh? Probably. Personally, I hear "I train x times a week" and I wonder why they can't train more often. Its a personal choice. One should be as severe with one's self as one feels will achieve their aims. It's a personal choice, and if you feel you are not being severe enough, thoughen up. If you feel you are beeing too severe, lighten up. Ask yourself in meditation. The answers are all there.

My aim is to ever expand my relationship with my swords, so I push myself a bit further every day.

Again, that's just me. Not everyone is the same. I don't understand the mentality that views the arts as a hobby or a sport.

Just thought I'd throw my admittedly extreme view out there. Do what you will with it...

JimmyCrow
25th August 2001, 20:48
Very well put Dimytri. You said..

Personally, I see work as a neccessity, not a priority. It enables me to work with my swords in relative comfort, but it does not take precident over my art.

I commend you for this. You truly have freed your mind from the chase of the mighty dollar. If only more students and teachers could do the same they might train more and find the answers they are looking for in life.

Jimmy Crow

Gil Gillespie
26th August 2001, 23:05
Good thread, Mike.

My sensei said years ago that the time for you to teach is when you reach the point where you have something to pass on, "something to say." In that sense I think you've been qualified to teach for a long time. Just from the tone and spirit of your posts here over time I know you would be an asset to any student you would have. You're the first one to say it ain't about fighting.

As far as self-imposed severity, I feel that should be in regard to upholding standards and maintaining integrity of your art(s) and your training. If you don't accept and love yourself it will always be extremely difficult to accept and love someone else. The great teachers in your life will excell at these much more than any technical efficiency!

You're totally correct in your assessment that there's way too many mediocre charlatans out there. All the more reason to expose the would be serious student to what Mike Collins has to offer. Trust me. My sensei is beating me over the head with the exact same advice right now. Don't judge yourself by how technically adept you perceive yourself to be!

And don't beat yourself up. We have our enemies to do that for us. . .

Mike Collins
27th August 2001, 02:32
Thanks Gil, I'm flattered. I teach occasionally, when asked, I have no aversion to teaching, only to being a "Teacher", if you get the difference.

The point of the original post was to get folks' feedback on how severe a student should be in order to be taken seriously as a student.

My take on it is that I need to be as severe as I have it in me to be that day. If life has kicked the crap out of me, and I got nothing to put out, I should put out just that much and then a little. If I'm feeling very fresh, I should train till I'm spent and then a little, so I can stretch a bit. If I'm physically fresh, but mentally tired, I should do the best I can that day to understand what I'm doing.

I was just trying to see how other folks approach Aikido. It sometimes seems to me that the younger guys just go hard, but seldom as hard as they've got the ability to go. And I often "coast" through my training as well. I want to start to work on that aspect of my training, to go as hard as I can safely, and stretch something each time.

See, I tend to ask the questions I already know the answer to, and usually tend to say what I need to hear.

George Ledyard
27th August 2001, 18:21
Originally posted by Mike Collins
Thanks Gil, I'm flattered. I teach occasionally, when asked, I have no aversion to teaching, only to being a "Teacher", if you get the difference.

The point of the original post was to get folks' feedback on how severe a student should be in order to be taken seriously as a student.

My take on it is that I need to be as severe as I have it in me to be that day. If life has kicked the crap out of me, and I got nothing to put out, I should put out just that much and then a little. If I'm feeling very fresh, I should train till I'm spent and then a little, so I can stretch a bit. If I'm physically fresh, but mentally tired, I should do the best I can that day to understand what I'm doing.

I was just trying to see how other folks approach Aikido. It sometimes seems to me that the younger guys just go hard, but seldom as hard as they've got the ability to go. And I often "coast" through my training as well. I want to start to work on that aspect of my training, to go as hard as I can safely, and stretch something each time.

See, I tend to ask the questions I already know the answer to, and usually tend to say what I need to hear.

What is your goal? Do you want to be as good as you possibly can be? Do you aspire to mastery on the level of the Japanese Uchi Deshi? Or will you be happy with something less?

The key here is to be absolutely honest with yourself. So many people are fooling themselves about their training. They want to see themselves as "serious" students but they aren't giving their training their utmost. When they see students who are really serious about their training they know in their hearts that they suffer by comparison so in order to maintain their self image as "serious" students they make up a series of excuses to dismiss those that are more serious than they are.

Excuse number one: Aikido is not about fighting. So it doesn't matter if my techniques work. In fact we will encourage the ukes not to show us when our techniques are inadequate. Then we can feel good about ourselves.

Excuse number two: Look at how those guys don't have any life. I have many different areas on which I focus so I am a more balanced person which is what Aikido is all about. They may train all the time but I am really doing better Aikido.

Excuse number three: O-sensei said that Aikido should be done with a spirit of joy so anything unpleasant or painful can't be Aikido. I don't want to end up all beat up when I am old so I'll take it easy now. Practice should always be fun!

Excuse number four: I have many other responsibilities like my job and my family. Training comes after those in my priorities.

There are all sorts of excuses of this sort. All contain a point of view that is respectable. In fact there is nothing essentially wrong with any of these points of view. Just understand that you are making a choice. The great Aikido teachers all spent at least some period of their lives in which they basically did nothing but train. Also, they are Japanese which meant that virtually every one of the Senseis had a wife whose sole job it was to support her husband by taking care of the family and additionally taking care of the Sensei's deshi. The Deshi wives are the great unsung heroes of the development of Aikido. If the Sensei had a regular job like Saito Sensei (railroad worker) then every other aspect of his life revolved around his training and teaching.

So that's what you are up against when you are deciding how good you aspire to be. No American wife (or husband) these days is going to subjugate herself to supporting your training by taking over all other responsibilities. Every decision you make impacts on how much of yourself you can give to your training.

So its really about how good you want to be. If you aspire to be like the great Japanese Sensei or even like the very best of the Foreign teachers then you have to be clear about the tradeoffs. I have eight kids (combined family) and I used to have a very demanding job as a menswear buyer. I realized that I could not reach the level in Aikido that I aspired to with those three priorities so I made Aikido teaching my living and dumped the outside job. That allowed me to put far more time in than many people are able to. But it has meant serious tradeoffs. Financially we are not in the league with those who have career type jobs. This effects many aspects of family life. I am happy with my training, things seem to be coming together after 24 years in a way that leads me to believe that some day I might actually know something. But at the same time I am quite conscious that no matter how hard I train I have made a series of choices that mean that I will never be able to put in the time on the mat that someone like Saotome sensei put in. Six or eight hours a day on the mat for 15 years in Japan. Then six or seven days a week ever since totaling more than forty years.

It's not that the uchi deshi are somehow inherently superior in ability to the rest of us. What they all share is the ability to apply themselves single mindedly to their training. Aikido has been their lives and it shows in their technical abilities. Those of them who have chosen to focus on the spiritual component of the art have also taken their understanding far beyond what one can do training two or three times a week for a couple of hours.

Today any person who has put in fifteen or twenty years of mat time can open a dojo (often less). Most students are happy if their teacher seems to know more than they do and is a nice and supportive person. The masochists like it if they have a teacher who chastises them regularly but the ability requirement is the same just a different personality. If they encounter someone who has attained some real level of mastery of the art they treat them as a sort of admirable museum piece. Great to look at but not having much to do with them. You go train with them at a seminar and then go back to your dojo and do the same things you've been doing all along. There is little sense that many students aspire to match these Sensei's. And when you run into the few that do, they are often put down by their fellows as being too tough, too unbalanced, too one sided, etc. Their efforts are dismissed by the other students who want to picture themselves as "serious" but who are never going to make the sacrifices that these people will make.

But the survival and progress of the art requires people like this. The ones who eat and sleep aikido. The ones who aspire to mastery on the lines of the Japanese Senseis or even higher. There will necessarily be only a small number of students who will make this commitment because it requires too much of a tradeoff. That's fine and natural. But each individual must consciously make his or her own choices about what their aspirations are. Just don't fool yourself into thinking you are doing something you are not. Their are levels of "seriousness" that go far beyond what most of us have been doing.

Mike Collins
27th August 2001, 19:57
That was a bit harsh (cause when you aren't doing what maybe you'd like to believe you're doing, the truth hurts), but very true.

I absoultely agree that Aikido needs more of those monomaniacal machine-like people training beyond all human endurance just to get a bit better each day. That is where the teachers who matter will come from, in my opinion.

I have hopes to be able to train like that, at least to some extent, later on in life, but only time will tell about that. What I was trying to address, you touched on a bit, but I'm not sure what your take on it is. If a student has consciously made the choice not to be one of the students we spoke of above, those who train as if there was no tomorrow, what level of investment or severity do they need to get to, to be taken seriously as students?

Not maybe, as students who'll ever really pass the art on in a meaningful way, but as students with a sincere desire to "get" a bit of what the art has, and pass it on in class as sempai. I've gotta believe that they are needed too, cause we can't/shouldn't all teach, huh?

This question has gotten some strong response, in this forum and others, and I wonder why? I honestly don't think it's a loaded question, but several people have shown quite a bit of strong feelings over a question intended more to get folks thinking than to cast any aspersions or throw rocks.

George Ledyard
27th August 2001, 22:52
Originally posted by Mike Collins
That was a bit harsh (cause when you aren't doing what maybe you'd like to believe you're doing, the truth hurts), but very true.

I absoultely agree that Aikido needs more of those monomaniacal machine-like people training beyond all human endurance just to get a bit better each day. That is where the teachers who matter will come from, in my opinion.

I have hopes to be able to train like that, at least to some extent, later on in life, but only time will tell about that. What I was trying to address, you touched on a bit, but I'm not sure what your take on it is. If a student has consciously made the choice not to be one of the students we spoke of above, those who train as if there was no tomorrow, what level of investment or severity do they need to get to, to be taken seriously as students?

Not maybe, as students who'll ever really pass the art on in a meaningful way, but as students with a sincere desire to "get" a bit of what the art has, and pass it on in class as sempai. I've gotta believe that they are needed too, cause we can't/shouldn't all teach, huh?

This question has gotten some strong response, in this forum and others, and I wonder why? I honestly don't think it's a loaded question, but several people have shown quite a bit of strong feelings over a question intended more to get folks thinking than to cast any aspersions or throw rocks.

Kensho Furya Sensei had a very nice way to describe the Aikido world of studenst. He states that Aikido is like a tree. There are many leaves (the short termers that pay a lot of the bills and support the dojo just by enrolling and training a bit) which come and go seasonly, there is the trunk (the folks that form the bulk of the membership and are the real support of a dojo) and then there are the roots (the small number of folks who are the real fanatics who will take the training to a deep level and provide the content for the others). I thought it was a great analogy. Everybody has a function and a place.

P Goldsbury
28th August 2001, 10:53
Originally posted by George Ledyard


Kensho Furya Sensei had a very nice way to describe the Aikido world of studenst. He states that Aikido is like a tree. There are many leaves (the short termers that pay a lot of the bills and support the dojo just by enrolling and training a bit) which come and go seasonly, there is the trunk (the folks that form the bulk of the membership and are the real support of a dojo) and then there are the roots (the small number of folks who are the real fanatics who will take the training to a deep level and provide the content for the others). I thought it was a great analogy. Everybody has a function and a place.

Yes. The analogy of the tree was also used by Chiba Sensei in an AJ interview (AJ #102, 1995). I quote from Page 13:

"The important issue today, however, is that if you think of aikido as a tree, it has to be made very clear who is going to take the role of the role of the leaves and branches and who is going to take the role of the roots and trunk. As long as there are people taking the role of the root and trunk then the tree remains solid and healthy, and bracnhes and leaves will appear. Then there's nothing to worry about. People should keep this in mind and avoid insisting shouldn't be the way it is now. Leaves are leaves and branches are branches, and these are fine in and of themselves. They're parts of the tree. The important issue is who is going to maintain aikido's center, in other words, who is going to take repsonsibility for maintaining the roots and the trunk? ... But to my way of thinking, there is no dubt that budo is what forms the roots of aikido. The branches and leaves grow out of that. All the other elements--aikido as "an art of living", as a means to better health, as callistenics or a physical aesthetic pursuit--all of these stem from a common root, which is budo. That they do so is perefectly fine, but the point is that they are not the root themsleves. O Sensei always stressed that "Aikido is budo" and "Budo is aikido's source of power". If we forget this, then aikido will mutate into something else--a so-called "art of living" or something akin to yoga."

As you can see, Chiba Sensei and Mr Furuya treat the analogy rather differently.

Best regards,

Peter Goldsbury,
_____________
P A Goldsbury,
Graduate School of Social Sciences,
Hiroshima University