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bruto
27th August 2001, 21:42
What is the best school for cane fighting? Do you think cane fighting is better than for example jojutsu?

Can you please give me some advice and some address that i can follow to read more about it?

thanks.

Bruto.

Neil Hawkins
27th August 2001, 23:46
Bruto, I need to remind you of the rules here about signing posts with your full name.

As for cane fighting, it all depends on what you want. The cane (I prefer a straight one about three feet long) has more in common with the hanbo than the jo. I practice a number of Japanese versions as well as a Philipino one and they are very complementary to each other.

For pure self defence, with a range of responses that allow control of the opponent as well as belting the living s*** out of him, I'd say go Japanese. Some jujutsu schools will teach it, as will many of the ninja related arts, Kukishinden is one school that do it well. But be aware that the cane is a small part of the curriculumn and may not be concentrated on.

If you want to be more agressive and face opponents with similar weapons, then many Philippino schools will be better. The Dog Brothers are quite adept at hitting things with sticks and are generally a good bunch of guys to train with, though there are many more traditional Arnis/Escrima clubs around that are just as good. Though again, there are a range of weapons and techniques other than the cane.

Finally you have the eclectic styles, there are many of these and I haven't seen enough of them to comment. Most of what I have seen has been based on the Philippine systems with some Japanese techniques and even some Chinese stuff thrown in. I tend to think that they don't do it as well, but often they require less training to become proficient as they concentrate on just cane, or at least have fewer techniques to master.

Like all MA, you get out what you put in. Regardless of the style you train, if you practice realistically and are honest about your appraisal of the effectivness then it will help you on the street.

Regards

Neil

bruto
28th August 2001, 04:36
thank you for the info.

I was searching the web and I found something called aiki-cane, is it something that really exists? or they made up the fancy name? What about the school called Goju Shorei?

thank you again.

Don Rearic
28th August 2001, 07:47
I find that there is flat out blasting someone with a Cane, which is quite easy to do once you understand and practice some Filipino Martial Systems, then there is something to be said for Fairbairn and Kengla's Methods as well.

Like Mr. Hawkins, I agree that Kukishinden, like the techniques found in Hatsumi Sensei's book, "Stick Fighting," are more than "effective." That's quite unpopular in some circles, to be a "pirate" and to be eclectic. But it works.

You have to understand the underlying principle of something in order to make it work and the Kukishinden techniques/system is a very subtle one that some do not understand. The focus mitts, however, do not lie! It works.

The only thing I take from say, Hapkido, is the hooking techniques with the crook of a good cane. I'm not a huge fan of those techniques, but there are times when they can be utilized. I love Canemasters Canes, they have the same appearance as a Cane someone disabled would use. And that in and of itself is a powerful ruse.

Joseph Svinth
28th August 2001, 13:30
Depending on where you live, who you know, and your personal inclinations, don't overlook non-Asian cane methods. For example, the methods of savate (la canne) are quite nice. You could also look at some of the Afro-Caribbean stick methods, such as danmye (Martinique) and bois (Trinidad). And reconstructions also exist. For example, Ken Pfrenger is doing interesting stuff with Irish stick (bata).

Some websites of possible interest:

* http://webserver1.oneonta.edu/faculty/hilldr/1971cc.htm (bois)
* http://www.chez.com/madinina1502/culture/culture.htm (danmyé, Martinique). See also Josy Michalon, Le Ladjia: Origine et pratiques ("Ladjia: Origin and Practice"). (Paris: Editions Caribéennes, 1987).
* http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/4933/shillelagh.html bata)
* http://www.alliancemartialarts.com/tahtib.html (gatka, Sikh staff fighting)
* http://www.geocities.com/internationalsilambam (silambam, Tamil staff fighting)
* http://ejmas.com/jwma/jwmaart_wolf_0500.html (Canary Islands stick and knife play)
* http://www.mindspring.com/~semartialarts/diss3a.html, http://www.mindspring.com/~semartialarts/diss4a.html (North American Woodland Indian sticks and clubs)
* http://www.savateaustralia.com (savate/la canne)
* http://xcanegcis2.homestead.com/XCaneGCIS2.html (savate/la canne)

Etc.

Finally, some free legal advice from someone who is not a lawyer, so take it for what it's worth: I recommend that in self-defense, you try to avoid strikes to the head. They work, no doubt about it, but they are also likely to be considered lethal force. Strikes to knuckles or knees, on the other hand, may be considered reasonable and prudent. As a result, you could get out of jail decades sooner than if you struck to the head.

Don Rearic
28th August 2001, 14:07
Mr. Svinth,

Thanks! I've seen some of those sites. On one of them, there is a reprint of The Boy Scouts of America [BSA] concepts on Quarterstaff. My how times have changed.

The English, French and Irish Concepts are indeed interesting and I'll have to look into the others. I discount nothing.

The Fairbairn and Kengla Methods are brutally effective and incredibly simple. Both work well and come to life in "Jim Grover's Combative Series." Just to get an idea of motion... The Kengla Method is in print in "Cold Steel" by John Styers, Fairbairn's ideas in, "Get Tough!"

As far legalities, that becomes situational and should be handled on a case by case basis.

For example, if someone has a knife or club, or other "contact" weapon, and they retain the weapon and mobility after you have struck them, then all bets are off. It also has to do with distance, if the attacker is already on you, and they have a deadly weapon, or there is some reasonable disparity of force...you can possibly utilize lethal force.

All of that is said with the caveat that these cases will be handled differently depending on the attitudes regarding Self-defense in a given locale. What might pass for "reasonable" in Texas is not likely to wash with a Grand Jury in an area like NYC. And you will be judged by the standard of your area and your "peers" (yeah right!).

I think it is more than safe to state that if you immobilize them or disable their weapon bearing limb and you give them a finishing shot, you are courting legal disaster. No matter how much they might "deserve" it. Regardless if it might teach them a "lesson" later on so they attack no one else. That's the way the egg rolls.

The Cane remains one of the most legal and one of the most effective Self-defense Weapons in my opinion, that a person can have. Again, in my opinion, it is priceless. It has the capability to disarm, stun, control and even kill if need be. You could not ask for something better for Self-defense really.

Sochin
28th August 2001, 19:11
As I may have mentioned before :) my personal pov is to teach cane work to older, non-athletic and untrained folk who just want a 'slam bam' sense of security... This has caused me to avoid most martialarts cane systems (no matter how much I may like them) as too complicated and requiring to much strength, balance and skill level, (ie, read: youth!) This includes my studies of Hatsumi's book, Echanis's effort, CaneMasters vids, Mike Finn, Gunsight vid, etc.

So I teach elementary arnis for basic skills and muscle/tendon strengthening,
Cqc principles from John Kary for attitude and direct technique,
some simple jo work against grabs
and one fine little technique I never saw anywhere else - I believe I invented it!

And one thing I've learned - it is one h** of a lot harder to make a good video of what you do than it is to just get out there and to do it!