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rsamurai2
28th August 2001, 23:59
i have a question.
According to the gokyo Kano shihan only studied martial arts for 5 years before he founded the kodokan. at which case you can assume he possessed all the knowledge of a judan. After all it was his "way". Having said that why does it take so long to rank up in judo. Not that I want my nidan 6 months after my shodan but because in a discussion with other mid level ranked black belts in judo they seem to look down on 8th, 9th and 10th dan holders in other systems. Even though the people have studied their art 30, 40 years and possess all the knowledge and technique level of their corresponding rank just because judo don't have as many high ranking people. In one conversation with my instructor a rokyudan in usja, i told him I could have my jujutsu shihan a judan, with over 40 years of experience in his style, give a self defense clinic. he laughed and said, "a judan? As if it was a self promoted joke. I have experienced this a couple of times. So again why does judo take so long to rank up? If a person can pass a test given by the organization at that organizations standards what ever they may be, why does it matter about the length of time between each rank. Either you have the skill or you don't. I hope this don't sound disrespectful in any way. I seem to have a knack for that when i don't mean to be.

Barry Southam
29th August 2001, 01:52
Friend,

You have picked a good topic for discussion!!
Many arts have no problem with high dan ranks being awarded to deserving individuals but in Judo as you stated 7,8,9 and 10th dan ranks are slow in coming in the U.S.A.,...Just look at the time in grade within the USJI, USJA, and USJF.....I don't think any of them are the same and god forbid you are a noncompetitor...

I never asked the leadership of the USJA how they came up with there rank time in grade table or any other group.... I haven't even asked the Kodokan...

If there are any Board members of the above three organizations who wish to explain there time in grade in Judo, please share how they were determined.... Oh, these aren't the only Judo groups in the USA.....Any group can share there views...

Another question would be the reservation of awarding 9 and 10 dans to Americans by American Judo org.,? Other arts have no problem with these ranks..

I think maybe 2 yrs minimum for 1 st dan in Judo.....Maybe 2 or 3 yrs. between ranks of 2-6 and 4- 5 yrs between 7-10 dan...... Hey, I just don't know !!!!!

Hey, if a kid or adult is looking for a martial art school and finds a Karate or Jujutsu school with a good time in grade table and they see Judo with a much longer one.....Where do you think they'll go to join....But then again we shouldn't be in the business of competing with other arts for students.....THIS IS TRUELY A QUESTION WITH MANY OPINIONS.....

My concern is having noncompetitors waiting longer for promotion than competitors....The noncompetitor might have learned a great deal about the various areas of Judo but that doesn't seem to matter....

Sorry for all this rambling but I don't know the answer to what is an adequate time in grade for Dan ranks and why we in the USA don't have many high 8,9 or 10th DANS in Judo.....If of course they meet the technical, seasoned practitioner, and we cannot forget the "correct character qualities" and maturity required for the level ....

I think some arts leave it up to the instructor as to when the student is ready for certain high dan ranks if it's within his authority....


Maybe Mark F. or someone would have good insight into this question....I know one thing and that's the USJA point requirement for rank is rediculous in my opinion!!!!


Take Care

Barry E. Southam

Kit LeBlanc
29th August 2001, 01:58
I was always under the impression that while Kano STARTED the Kodokan after just a few years in jujutsu systems, he continued his own training and even invited his old instructors to teach at the Kodokan. That is, he was still training after he started the Kodokan, and only later earned his menkyo licenses. Of course, he invented the kyu-dan system, so I guess he could do whatever he wanted there.

I have always seen rank as "political," not a measure of skill. In essence it symbolizes knowledge more than skill, as it is the knowledge which can be passed on to junior ranks and not personal skill in application, which is self-obtained.

I see rank as meaning you have spent longer in that art (or particular school), you have entered the "in-group" and are "with the program." Some schools may rank people by whom they defeat in competition, and I guess that is a measure of skill, but ultimately it will fall back on how long you have been with the group and how much of the curriculum you may know, and not necessarily how much better your increasingly aging and less able body is than the younger, hungry fast risers. You may know LOTS more than the guy that can wipe the mat with you, and rank is given for that knowledge.

Of course being "with the program" in some schools is how much money you are willing to part with to get whatever rank level you think you deserve. I guess in this case it doesn't symbolize knowledge OR skill.

"We don't give away black belts here, you have to earn them!! "

Kit

Jack B
29th August 2001, 03:21
Out of respect, the 10th dan is no longer given out by the Kodokan in Judo, and like it or not the main Judo organizations respect that. Just the way it is.

Like the 9th dan is no longer being awarded by the ZNKR. Too bad, but all the hachidans are stuck. Why?

There is no way to acknowledge someone who has been 8d for 30 years. Is it true that all things decline, so there is no one today who compares to the 9th and 10th dans of the past? Is it gentility of a generation for its teachers? Then what?

Jack Bieler
Denton, Texas

captainkirk
29th August 2001, 06:33
What is the problem with judo not having a whole lot of 8-10 degree black belts running around? I've never measured any judo club's worthiness by what rank the teacher is. I'm sure everyone has seen the tae kwon do school ads that all advertise "grandmaster x" or "master x with 12th degree black belt". The whole point of high ranks is for them to be special and not common.
Besides does it really matter what level black belt you have?If you are a 1st degree and you are better than a 3rd degree in randori or even competition, does it matter that he has a slip of paper with the number 3 on it instead of 1.
I have always looked at how good someone is at judo, not their rank.I once worked out with a white belt who was from the soviet union.He played like no other white belt I had ever seen.He did some really complicated stuff and knew the finer points of judo.However since the soviets didnt award colored belts all he had was a certificate saying he was a "master of sport" and a white belt.I later found out the IJF will award a 6th degree automatically to a person holding a soviet era "master of sport" certificate.So much for "ranK"

captainkirk
29th August 2001, 06:36
oops forgot to sign.

matthew kirk

MarkF
29th August 2001, 10:05
I agree with the Captain, and Kit as well, except for the one error. While it is true Kano developed the Dan-I grading system, he did not the kyu grades. When Kano began to gather his system together, it was first done in his parents' home. His first, early students, were given certificates grading them shodan pretty much on the first day, or not too much later. Shodan was the beginning, and grading systems of today notwithstanding, it still is.

Training is very different from what it was then, too. The kangeiko, or winter training season, holds special meaning, and eight hour or longer days spent training were the norm. The norm in many judo dojo today, due to location and time constraints (YMCAs, Parks and Recs, etc.), is more like two days a week, though my teacher had judo programs at two YMCAs relatively within close proximity so it was four days for some.

But I have to go back to what the good Captain said, and ask why? It is a difficult question to answer the "Whys" of it, but in that the USJA is probably the most liberal in their systems (plural, as they grade in more than judo. Why? That's a good question:)
with the USJF as the most conservative.

The Kodokan itself is probably most liberal of all, as are other judo schools in Japan, as it isn't a question of time in grade but of age. This is just how it is. If one is a beginning student and of thirty years of age, it wouldn't be unreasonable for that student to be graded shodan in six months, sometimes less particularly is the other ungraded students are much younger.

The former US Black Belt Federation (now the USJF) was particularly conservative in the sixties, when I came up, and thus I was an ikyu forever (or about eight years, anyway). There may be a lesson in that, I don't know, but neither was it unusual for a graded judoka at, say sankyu to enter as ungraded (white belt) into tournmaments. I think the lesson here is that first experience can be intimidating, so perhaps the reason this was/is done, I'm not sure.

Barry hasn't asked the Kodokan, I won't ask then a question like that, nor does it do any good to ask the USJF, or the umbrella organization of the USJI. Most didn't test on the way up, either, though this is becoming more common today, but informal grading is probably more common in us/candadian judo still.

There is still the one question no one seems to ask when this topic came up and that is what does it mean?

In the early days, it meant simply to distinguish those with knowlege from those without, and really was limited to white and black. It was most probably a watermark of sorts for students to approximate the training time and to make such visible to others.

So agreed it shouldn't matter, but the question comes up all the time, and it is a difficult question to answer. Commonly, the competitor who runs straight out to godan for his achievemnts, retires, and fairly automatically is given his rokudan. From there it becomes honorary and is completely a decision marked by age and what have you given back to judo.

The Kodokan did announce they were no longer grading anyone to judan anymore. The IJF had done so which brought about the question of Kodokan judan, in 1997 to the late Charlie Palmer and to Anton Geesink. Hmm, Geesink is rokudan at the Kodokan (or close).

The British Judo Association puts the point system out there for everyone to see so getting a bump is directly related to points scored at shiai. But then, they have kata shiai as well.

Still, difficult question to answer, but it usually brings up a lot of discussion.

Mark

MarkF
29th August 2001, 10:10
BTW: Most of the early 10-dan were awarded this grade posthumously. Of those, only Mifune and Kotani were not, I think (I need to go back over them to see if this became routine), but since Kano believed no one could gain such perfection in a single lifetime, it would then be prudent to do so.

"Learn from the mistakes of others. You may not live long enough to make them all yourself."-Jigoro Kano-shihan.

Mark

rsamurai2
29th August 2001, 15:18
rank don't mean much to me. heck a had my shodan for a couple of months before i turned my paperwork in. and your right it shouldn't matter what rank you are. either you have the skill and knowelege or you don't. but that wasn't the question. the question is why does it take longer in judo to rank up than in other systems evan though you DO have the knowelege and skill required for rank and why do many mid level judo blackbelts seem to look down on other high ranked people in other systems, especialy if rank don't matter.

Don Cunningham
29th August 2001, 18:12
Rank does not mean that much to me. I've probably topped out as a nidan in judo. The Kodokan used to have a short course, something like 6 or 8 weeks to shodan for high school sport coaches. It was run during the summer and was intended to encourage judo in the rural area school systems, I think. Many of the early U.S. judoka were military servicemen sent to study at the Kodokan during the '60s. A lot of them returned wearing black belts after only a few weeks or months of training.

I'm not complaining. I think rank has been more of a detriment to the study of martial arts than a benefit. It seems the current judo organizations, at least the U.S. ones, are completely befuddled by the whole rank issue. I have about a dozen e-mails between each of them trying to comprehend their own ranking requirements. What's weird is that many of their answers contradict themselves. All I wanted to know was the requirements to promote one of my student to shodan. I think many of the old judoka are more concerned with getting their own rokudan or who else has gotten their's than encouraging new judoka with promotions to enter the system. It's a shame really that it has come to this.

Look at all the other systems out there. What gets people riled up faster than wet hornets is this ranking issue. An instructor can be a known pedophile and convicted con man. He might get a few comments in the Bad Budo section. Yet, woe be it to the instructor who promotes themselves to 8th dan. They will be flamed by nearly everyone. Where the heck is our priorities here?

MarkF
30th August 2001, 08:22
I don't know why it takes so long in judo. There is no specific standard, except that a national body has to approve a teacher's certification, and after 6-dan, it is an international body.

Why so many mid-level judoka looking down their noses at higher-graded in other Martial Arts? If that's true, and I've known a few, then they are probably jerks. Being a judoka in no way gives them the right to speculate, or perhaps it is simple jealosy.

BTW: In the "teacher and the student forum" someone brought up the idea that the number of kata in OMA seemed to increase along with the numbers of kyu-ranks.

Kodokan Judo has seven official kata it teaches, so how does that compute?

Prof. Bodiford of UCLA in his post concerning the Iemoto/soke system, sited a peer as stating that in theory, the only true soke system to exist is the Kodokan. I doubt anyone has the, ahh, nerve to call the Kodokan soke, though.:)

Mark

Jack B
30th August 2001, 18:42
The problem with limiting rank is that you get a compression of ranks at the top level. Rank in martial arts is very much a political function. When the head of an organization is 6th dan, that limits the next tier to 5th dan tops. That means the 4th dans and 3rd dans etc cannot be promoted until somebody dies or makes room. This causes resentment and competition and political problems. The lower levels (1st through 5th) usually have a time scale and criteria. Above that it is age and contribution. 7th dan is a very powerful rank in judo. There should not be a "whole slew" of 7th-dan-plus running around. But on the other hand there are an awful lot of judoka, and a lot with 30-50 years i nthe art. These are good knowledgeable guys and I don't think there's any reason for that not to be acknowledged by rank. The organization has to be structured to support this. There is also the idea/tradition that the head of a style is 2 ranks higher than the next tier, such as Kano being a (virtual) 12 dan since he had 10 dans under him.

Aikikai has informally limited ranks to 9th dan for hombu people, and 8th dan for everyone else. The last time they promoted someone to judan he got a swelled head and wouldn't take direction from the family. Since then the only judan in Aikikai have been posthumous.

Jack Bieler
Gristle Chaw, Texas

rsamurai2
30th August 2001, 22:19
jack,

thats as agood an explanation as any. it makes a lot of sense and explains part of my question but the part you have not addressed is why do the judo blackbelts look down their noses of those from other systems who might out rank them? rank should be a function of skill, knowlege and contribution. time would be a factor because it take time to achieve all of this. but if my skill and/or knowlege is equal or above that of my peers in other arts, that should be respected. is a doctor from harvard more of a doctor than some one from yale or stanford or even university of texas. these people all completed what was required of them by there institutions, who are we to discount there rank/degrees?
just a question to ponder.

thanks for everyones replies,

richard

captainkirk
31st August 2001, 01:33
In my experience it isnt the rank which commands respect but the actions or attitude of the person wearing the belt.I have practiced with BJJ ranked people who showed up at judo practice wearing a black belt.If they were good I respected them for it.If they just blew smoke and didnt have any technique then I just figured that they didnt know any judo and that IN JUDO they were the same as a white belt.I would expect the same from a karate practitioner if i said i had a black belt in judo.why should he respect me? Most times other systems have a completely different criteria for advancement.
Besides, when you meet someone and find out they do a martial art, do you ask what rank they are? It is sort of like asking someone who says they are a doctor if they are a PHD or a MD.
I would also suspect judoka are leery of non judo martial artists who are high ranked(8-10) because of unknown promotion requirements.It is a safe bet that a 5th dan in judo is competant in competition and can explain finer techniques.I have no clue (and dont care either) what a 5th dan in Jujutsu or karate or aikido did do get his rank.At least not until I decide to start doing karate. ;) Matthew kirk

MarkF
31st August 2001, 09:11
Richard,
OK, I gave you a fair answer, I think, and I'm sure there are asses everywhere, but where is it that "why do the judo blackbelts look down their noses of those from other systems who might out rank them?"

You continually bring this up, so where is it coming from? Is it on this board from the judoka here that you get this?

I'd really like to know, because we've gone now, from mid-level judo black belts to so many judo black belts, and now simply "Judo black belts look down their noses" at anyone with a higher grade in a different activity with different standards.

One possible reason, and I would think it true of any traditionally practiced MA, it is possibly, just possibly, some simply are raising the "red flags" in a big way, much like those you see in the Bad Budo forum.

I mean, I don't know much, and while the judo jerks didn't show up until Phil Porter went to court to form his organization, and now has one which recognizes something called "Angelic Ninjitsu." Perhaps it is these people with whom you have a problem?

But since you have now included every judo black belt in your survey on "Why," is it just possible that you have a problem with judoka altogether?

No? Than why ask why?

Judo begun on an understanding. No longer would those of barely koryu jujutsu have to be "jumped in" to join, and the black belts were the really competent while the student with no grade would learn from a dan ranked judoka. There were no kyu ranks, so the term mukyu made sense then, while it makes little today.
No more would the jujutsu practitioners need the muscle to complete a technique, kuzushi would do that.

If that isn't enough, then ask again, but I can't offer anything else, and you've been given all the reasons you need, IMO, to formulate an answer to that question.

Mark

rsamurai2
31st August 2001, 14:10
mark,
i am still talking about the same group of people, i just didn't type in mid level. so from now on when i refer to these people just assume i am talking about the same group unless i type differently.

rsamurai2
31st August 2001, 14:18
mark,
i am still talking about the same group of people, i just didn't type in mid level. so from now on when i refer to these people just assume i am talking about the same group unless i type differently.

btw. i have met some real great judo mid level people also. so i am not making a blanket statement, but they seem to be the minority. i work out with as many people as i can. i know hundreds of martial artisits from different styles, but judo seems to have a click and an attitude that i haven't seen before in the other m.a. yet many of us view judo as probably the furthest removed from m.a. because of its emphasis on sport, the denial of ki lack of self defense training and weapons training. but on the otherhand judka know their m.a. history and are more organized. and because of the emphasis on sport are usally better conditioned. your not going to find a wimp in judo.

Jack B
31st August 2001, 20:21
Originally posted by rsamurai2
is a doctor from harvard more of a doctor than some one from yale or stanford or even university of texas. these people all completed what was required of them by there institutions, who are we to discount there rank/degrees?

A business or law degree from Harvard is worth a heck of a lot more than one from UT. However a degree in meteorology from Harvard ain't a whiz in the wind compared to one from Oklahoma. It depends on what you're looking for. All things are not created equal.

Don Cunningham
31st August 2001, 20:28
Maybe the reason richard feels that mid-level judoka are looking down on him is because he doesn't have a lot of respect for his own accomplishment. Often those with an inferiority complex think others consider themselves to be superior.

Things are not equal. You can not compare rank across the board to all martial arts. Rank is meaningless when compared from one style to another. It doesn't mean all that much within any particular style in the first place.

Ranking is not like military grades, where a Navy Captain outranks an Army Commander who outranks a Marine Lieutenant. In the martial arts, like life, we should respect the person, not their belt color. Some deserve respect and some don't, it has nothing to do with what rank they hold. Those that believe that rank is what others should respect are just plain fools.

Brian Griffin
31st August 2001, 21:13
Originally posted by MarkF
BTW: Most of the early 10-dan were awarded this grade posthumously. Of those, only Mifune and Kotani were not, I think (I need to go back over them to see if this became routine), but since Kano believed no one could gain such perfection in a single lifetime, it would then be prudent to do so.

No upper limit was ever set, and grades beyond 10-dan were (once) envisioned. Explicit provision for 11- and 12-dan appeared in the 1955 edition of Illustrated Kodokan Judo. Progress even beyond 12-dan was considered possible, but beyond that level, numbered grades & colored belts were thought irrelevant.

Kano made three promotions to 10-dan. Of these, only the very first (Yamashita, 1935) was posthumous. Nagaoka & Isogai were promoted in '37, and died in '52 & '47, respectively.

There were four other posthumous promotions in the period 1967-1979 (Okano, Shoriki, Nakano, Kurihara), but all other 10-dan have hade measurable pulses:

Mifune promoted 1945 died 1965
Iizuka 1946 1958
Samura 1948 1964
Tabata 1948 1950
Kotani 1984 1991


Richard Porro asks
(W)hy do the judo blackbelts look down their noses of those from other systems who might out rank them?
The answer is simple:

Experience.

rsamurai2
31st August 2001, 21:41
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Don Cunningham
[B]Maybe the reason richard feels that mid-level judoka are looking down on him is because he doesn't have a lot of respect for his own accomplishment. Often those with an inferiority complex think others consider themselves to be superior.

not looking down on me don, the reason i asked the question was in several conversations with my instructor and other mid level b.b. they made the comment to me. but you may have a point about me. my judo b.b. is the one i am least proud of. judo, the way it was taught to me, has been a big dissapointment. it is the most removed from any actual fighting and/or martial art. karate point fighting is closer to actual combat than judo randori. and i have very little repect for martial sports. i view them as a watered down bastardization of martial arts. point karate is a game of tag, tkd well, since it became an olympic sport is pretty much a joke. and sport judo is so filled with rules it nowhere close resembles any form of combat. again i only refer to sport judo not judo as a martial art because i have no experience with that form. i keep haveing sport guys tell me differently but i proved to them time and time again as soon as the grab me for a throw i grab there head and take them down and many times i get a kick to the groin or a slap on the face on them first.

rsamurai2
31st August 2001, 22:10
Originally posted by Jack B


A business or law degree from Harvard is worth a heck of a lot more than one from UT. However a degree in meteorology from Harvard ain't a whiz in the wind compared to one from Oklahoma. It depends on what you're looking for. All things are not created equal.

you have a point. i didn't think about it like that. i show people respect until they do something to negate it. if someone in the dojo or tournament has a higher rank than mine no mater what his style i repect him for it. if he is a fake, than shame on him and he will be exposed. don cunningham has that job. i meet fakes before. as soon as they steped in the ring or on the mat they were exposed. then i lost repect for them. i just carry this attitude over into real life. if i am introduced to someone who is a doctor, i call him doctor, i don't ask for a resume'. i guess thats just how i view the martial arts, so when i refer to someone as a judan, rykudan or godan i repect them for their titile and when i hear someone say," ya but thats not a judo rank" that sounds foriegn and slightly offensive to me.

just my take

richard

Kit LeBlanc
1st September 2001, 02:02
Oh never mind, I don't wanna get into the same, tired old argument again.

MarkF, thanks for setting me straight on the kyu-dan thing....

Kit LeBlanc

Barry Southam
1st September 2001, 02:41
Friends,

I'm a little lost here in that I don't understand the question about Dan ranked Judo practitioners being concerned with ranks from other arts....
I am not concerned in individuals from other arts being of higher rank than me in their respective arts.....I am ranked in the art that I study which is Judo and its rank requirements are different than say Isshinryu Karate or Aikido and SO I have no problem with others saying they are of a higher rank in their art.....

Why should I be concerned or even want to compare rank requirements....As long as I know I have worked hard over the past 34 years in sincerity in learning and teaching others, I feel confident in my rank....I tell my students: Don't be concerned with the ranks others have obtained in Judo and other martial arts.....Whether they earned it or it was given to them on a silver platter is not your concern.....The general public can be fooled but when these individuals are around other martial artists in that specific art , they can fool no one....Be concerned in giving a sincere effort in learning your Judo and when you are an older person you can look back and say" I earned everything that I achieved, can others say the same"....

What purpose would I have in being concerned as a Judo with the rank someone else has in say Shotokan Karate ? The answer is none!!!!

Take Care

Barry E. Southam

rsamurai2
1st September 2001, 18:25
Barry,
that's the whole reason why i asked the question. However, I have come across this a couple of different times while speaking to judoka. Rank doesn't mean anything to me. I am a better shodan than allot of sandans and i am sure their are kyu people better than me or other shodans. Nevertheless, I have witnessed as with some other people who cross train in my judo class that there is a clique in judo. So, i was just asking why? Not commenting whether it's good or bad.

MarkF
2nd September 2001, 10:08
Originally posted by Brian Griffin
No upper limit was ever set, and grades beyond 10-dan were (once) envisioned. Explicit provision for 11- and 12-dan appeared in the 1955 edition of Illustrated Kodokan Judo. Progress even beyond 12-dan was considered possible, but beyond that level, numbered grades & colored belts were thought irrelevant.


Hi, Brian,
I realize no upper limit was ever set, only that the top dan grade increased, IE, 3-dan, then 7-dan, 10-dan, and yes, at least two additional dan grades were thought possible, but history has a knack for setting things for you, so while it was never set officially, 10-dan did become the upper level, and today, with the Kodokan saying they would not be grading anymore judan, then perhaps it has come down to 9-dan. I doubt it, as the future generations tend to bring change, so that may not hold up either.

If you consider the IJF, up until recently, there were two living judan, Geesink and the late Charlie Palmer.

Mark

MarkF
2nd September 2001, 10:13
BTW: I did at least allow myself one caveat which was, perhaps, a statement that really only said I was simply lazy in not looking them up, but several were given a bump posthumously.

And I was sure of the later 10-dans that they were bumped well-before their demise, I meant that I wasn't sure if they were alone in that or not.

Regards,
Mark

Don Cunningham
3rd September 2001, 01:14
Richard,

I am sort of confused now. You claim that rank doesn't mean anything to you. Yet earlier you stated that you unequivically respect whatever martial arts ranking someone else claims to hold until they show you they don't deserve it on the mat. You also wrote that you are frequently offended when a judoka points out that any other style's rank is not equivalent to a judo rank. This and the fact that you raised this issue in the first place would indicate that ranking does mean something to you, apparently something important as well.

First, I don't think martial arts ranking is or should be based solely on skill. I used to consider rank as a way of telling how long someone had been studying a particular martial art, but that's been pretty much blown away by all the instant yudansha rank awards I've seen recently.

As for proving it on the mat, I must disagree with you there, too. I've known many high ranking judoka who can barely still perform kata, much less randori or shiai. I still have respect for them--for their past accomplishments, their ability to teach or coach others, and for their personal character. I've also met a few high ranking judoka who were absolute killers on the mat, yet I can find little or no respect for them because of their many other character flaws, lack of ethical standards, or poor moral values. I'm sure this same holds true for other martial arts styles as well, it's just that I am around other judoka most of the time.

I guess what I am trying to say is that I may have once thought martial arts ranks were a standard for measuring a person. While I may be more cynical now, I no longer base my personal judgment of others on their martial arts skills and certainly not on their rank or belt color.

rsamurai2
3rd September 2001, 01:43
Don let me approach this by your paragraphs.

1. Rank doesn’t mean anything to me personally. However, I still respect others rank. i don't care IF i don’t get past shodan. However, someone who has put in the effort and out ranks me, in whatever style, than I respect them for their accomplishment. The reason i brought the thread up was what i noticed in other judoka that i have met and their attitude toward others outside judo. As I said in earlier posts, i have beaten many sandans and my instructor who is a rokyudan but just because i beat them doesn't mean i don't respect them. (those people only knew judo. i had an arsenal of techniques from judo and jujutsu. none of them could pass my guard.) Especially my instructor. Now i have met people with bought rank and it was evident once we were on the mat or in sparring (karate) and that’s when i lost respect for them in martial arts and character.

2. i agree with you, an attitude change i have had over the years.

3. i am not sure we have a disagreement here. Either i posted something that i didn't make clear or you are misunderstanding me. However, I agree with you here for the same reasons you stated.

Let me clarify. I respect everyone no matter what until they give me a reason not to. i think you believe i am correlating skill with respect. Only to a point. Someone with no real skill making newbie mistakes but claims to be a godan that’s what i mean by losing respect. Not some one I defeated or skill may not be up to par. As I said earlier, i have beaten higher ranked judoka on the mat but i still have the utmost respect for them. They still have knowledge to bestow. I finally took over my instructors dojo. But I found an ijf ref and godan he is 70 years old and still competes, on the mat I would kill him he isn’t as fast as me(I am 30 years younger) I am 10 x stronger also. But his knowledge, skill and experience is beyond compare. I respect him very highly and I am looking forward to learning from him. I will teach jujutsu he judo.

Richard

Brian Griffin
3rd September 2001, 08:39
Originally posted by MarkF
while it was never set officially, 10-dan did become the upper level, and today, with the Kodokan saying they would not be grading anymore judan, then perhaps it has come down to 9-dan.[/B]
That's what everybody said after Mifune died in '65.

Ito Kazuo (9-dan) even said as much in the book he published that same year.

The reasoning seemed pretty clear: When Kano died in '38, he left behind (2) living judan. From 1938-1964 there were never less than two, and sometimes as many as five, judan alive at one time.
When Samura died in '64, followed shortly by Mifune, it was the first time since Kano's death that the Kodokan had been without any living judan.
How would they decide who should be promoted?
For the next couple of decades, judan was only awarded posthumously.

Then in '84 they go and promote Kotani. Go figure!

Maybe in another decade, or so.

Barry Southam
3rd September 2001, 18:17
Friends,

I feel that many instructors no matter what the martial art system they teach....Ignore the student's "Character" and all that it refers to when it's time for being promoted....If the student is skilled and tough either in the dojo or competition,that's all that matters to some instructors....
The student could abuse other students,especially new students unnecessarily.....Have no interest in helping other students learn, show no respect to others and be an immoral person ....BUT, they will be promoted!!!!! Character goes hand in hand with rank, no matter if you're an Olympic Champion....If you have poor character and etiquette, you shouldn't be promoted!!!

OF COURSE THIS IS ONLY MY OPINION AND HOW I TEACH.....HOW SOMEONE TEACHES IS NONE OF MY BUSINESS!!

Being able to "beat' someone of higher or lower rank is not important whatsoever.....A dojo is a place where we all come to train and learn and being able to beat or win is only important in Competition and PROTECTING YOURSELF OR SOMEONE ELSE....
Here again, I feel that winning in shiai isn't as important as the friendships made and the sharing of the art....Yes it's nice to get a trophy,ribbon or medal if it happens....But the participation itself helps one learn something about themselves.....EVERYBODY CANNOT BE A SHIAI CHAMPION BUT EVERYONE CAN SHARE IN THE EXPERIENCE OF LEARNING A MARTIAL ART.......You might have been attacked on the street and robbed...But you won the battle due to the fact of your martial art training...You survived the attack with minimal injury both PHYSICALLY and MENTALLY...

So in my opinion Character of the individual should play an important role in the promotion process....


Take Care

Barry E. Southam

MarkF
4th September 2001, 10:25
Amen, Barry.

Mark