PDA

View Full Version : Uyenishi



47th ronin
31st August 2001, 23:14
I am curious why this man's art is referred to as judo. His book is called the Textbook of Ju-Jutsu, his student WH Garrud's book is the Complete Jujutsuan, as is Emily(Mrs Roger)Watt's book called the Fine Art of Ju-Jutsu. I believe he left England before Kano visited and "adopted" some ju-jutsu instructors into the Kodokan(ie, Yukio Tanni as a 2nd degree black belt).

I have not been able to find out the style of ju-jutsu that he taught, but I also haven't found anything that links him to the Kodokan.

Any comments?

Ben_Holmes
2nd September 2001, 06:04
Two things will make this clear... first, in the late 1800's and early 1900's, Judo was *commonly* referred to as Jujutsu... or 'Kano-Ryu Jujutsu'.

Next, reading the book you referred to makes it quite clear... for example, on page 14, "Perhaps it may not be without interest if I make here a slight digression and refer to a few somewhat analogous styles of self-defence, which are either now, or were formerly in vogue in Japan, most of which styles are more or less related to Ju-jutsu, being either branchings off from that science, or originally distinct systems from which the modern Judo, or Ju-jutsu, has been compounded." (Author goes on to discuss these "styles of self-defense...) As you can see, Uyenishi here demonstrates his ability to use either word, and does slightly more than imply that they are, in his mind, identical.

Or, on page 17; "... and the Judo style (as Ju-jutsu proper is often styled)"

So Uyenishi himself, refers to what he taught as either Judo or Ju-jutsu. And, as Uyenishi was born in Osaka in 1880, and came to England when he was 20 something. So his training was in the correct time frame for Judo to have been what he learned.

MarkF
2nd September 2001, 09:56
There are more books, from the same time period, more or less, which also describe judo as ju jutsu, such as a book entitled "Kano Jiu-jitsu." Articles have been written, one I read as late as 1964, or there abouts, which referred to judo as Kano-ryu jiu jitsu.

Do a web search and you are probably going to find at least one school which calls what they do Kano jiu jitsu, to imply tradition or a different order of the judo syllabus, but nevertheless, judo.

Old habits die hard. Consider the spelling (and improper usage) of jujitsu some gendai forms stubbornly refuse to change. But even in this, what they do is more judo than ju jutsu.

Mark

47th ronin
2nd September 2001, 19:27
Ben and Mark,

Thank you both for responding. I had noticed the references you mentioned Ben(pg14&17), howver it is not clear to my n\mind that he was Kodokan. When Barton-wright brought Uyenishi over to England, he (Barton-wright) was not Kodokan. In his three year stay in Japan he studied the art with under an unnamed sensei who specialised in the kata form of instruction and then took lessons at the school of Kano Jigoro, although he admitted that he had not been taught"the higher forms of the art"(Koizumi,1950). When he returned to England and set up a martial arts school, he wrote to contacts in Japan asking for Japanese experts to be sent to England. Tani Yukio and Uyenishi Sadukazu were sent, and became the two pioneers of jujutsu and judo in England. Excerpt from J.Svinth article in JAMA volume 8 #2 1999

In My Study of Judo by G. Koizumi, pg 23 "In Europe,Ju Jutsu preceded Judo. There are a few books describing Ju Jutsu, some as early as the 17th century, but the credit for the pionerring of its pratical instruction must go to YUKIO TANI, who arrived in London on 26th September 1899, with his brother, followed by S.K. UYENISHI in 1900, Taro MIYAKEa few years later, and AKITARO OHNO(Kodokan 4th Dan) in 1905." He later makes reference to he and Tani joining the Kodokan in 1920.

I find it odd Koizumi would give ranking only to OHNO, and not Tani,Uyenishi or Miyake unless they were not Kodokan. We know Tani joined later.

As Barton-Wright was not a Judo man, it would seem to make sense his Japanese contacts would be in whatever (unknown ) style of jujutsu he studied in Japan.

It is possible Uyenishi was Kodokan, I still haven't seen anything that says he was.

Ben_Holmes
2nd September 2001, 19:57
howver it is not clear to my n\mind that he was Kodokan.

Well, if it was not Kodokan Judo to which he referred, what was it? Whatever it was,

#1. is identical in techniques to Kodokan Judo.

#2. is identical in rank structure (Uyenishi is wearing a black belt, his uke is wearing a white belt). Do you know of any Jujutsu style in the late 1800's or early 1900's that had already adopted the Kodokan ranking method?

#3. identical in the uniform worn to train. Again, are you familiar with any Jujutsu styles from that time period that utilized some form of gi? I could be mistaken, but I was under the impression that this was unique (in that time period) to Kodokan Judo.

#4. and had the same emphasis on Kuzushi that Kodokan Judo had/has. The whole 2nd chapter deals with balance. Again, I could be mistaken, but I was under the impression that this emphasis on Kuzushi was unique to Kodokan Judo.



I find it odd Koizumi would give ranking only to OHNO, and not Tani,Uyenishi or Miyake unless they were not Kodokan.

I'd simply wonder what the meaning of the black belt being worn by Uyenishi meant if it didn't indicate a rank of Kodokan Judo. No other style was indicating rank by means of belt color that early.


I've not seen any evidence that he *didn't* train in Kodokan Judo. If he was, indeed, some other style of Jujutsu, then perhaps we need to rethink just how unique Kodokan Judo was.

47th ronin
2nd September 2001, 22:26
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ben_Holmes
[B]

Well, if it was not Kodokan Judo to which he referred, what was it? Forgive me, I should have said I have no doubt he is referring to Kodokan, I am not sure he is stating that HE is Kodokan.


#1. is identical in techniques to Kodokan Judo.
You got me there, I don't know.


#2. is identical in rank structure (Uyenishi is wearing a black belt, his uke is wearing a white belt). Do you know of any Jujutsu style in the late 1800's or early 1900's that had already adopted the Kodokan ranking method?

#3. identical in the uniform worn to train. Again, are you familiar with any Jujutsu styles from that time period that utilized some form of gi? I could be mistaken, but I was under the impression that this was unique (in that time period) to Kodokan Judo.

#2-3 If Hancock's Kano Jiu-Jitsu is not judo as suggested by
several people (eg J.Svinth), then tsutsumi hozan ryu would fit the bill. I also have a copy of DragonTimes volume 6 with an article by Graham Noble on early jujutsu. There is a picture of Uyenishi doing a scissor takedown on Yukio Tani. Oddly Tani is wearing a black belt on his obi, Uyenishi appears to have a white belt.

Thank you Ben, you have been making me work for the answer, and digging up a lot of info from my own books(and your site)

Ben_Holmes
3rd September 2001, 03:18
If Hancock's Kano Jiu-Jitsu is not judo as suggested by several people (eg J.Svinth),

And, with nothing in particular to back it up, I tend to agree with Svinth on this... Hancock's book is drastically different from other books put out in the same time period by other authors, but who are known to be Judo.


Thank you Ben, you have been making me work for the answer, and digging up a lot of info from my own books (and your site)

That's all right, you've been forcing me to learn it too!! You never really learn it as well as when you're either trying to defend it, or teach it.

Hmmm... using my own site against me? What a fiendish idea!!

MarkF
3rd September 2001, 11:04
I don't think you are wrong, Ben, but some are simply because dates are wrong, as in the beginning of the following article by Graham Noble, reprinted by Joseph Svinth on the Electronic Journals of Martial Arts/Sciences:

The Odyssey of Yukio Tani

By Graham Noble

Copyright © Graham Noble 2000. All rights reserved. An earlier version of this article appeared in Warriors Dreams, volume 1. Reprinted by courtesy of Graham Noble.

***

Yukio Tani was never too good with dates, and even the one date he did quote -- September 26, 1899, when he and his brother arrived in London at the invitation of E.W. Barton-Wright -- was wrong. Richard Bowen has established that the two came to Britain in September 1900, and were followed not long after by S. Yamamoto. Yukio Tani was to stay in England for the rest of his life, but his brother and Yamamoto returned to Japan within a year, possibly due to a disagreement on the use of jujutsu as "entertainment."
******

Dates of the first demonstrations/papers on Kano's ideas were first presented to U.L Grant, on a trip to Japan. He witnessed Kano's talk and demonstrations.

You will note above that the original date of Tani's arrival was off, and this article has been posted on Mr. Svinth's web site http://ejmas.com . You may see this article in its entirety there.

The confusion is over what people called judo in its early days. The term itself is not unique to Jigoro Kano, as it first was used in the eighteenth century by the Jikishinryu, an older school of kitoryu.

Some ju jutsu systems found new life as Kodokan Jiu Jitsu, as it was called by this name until the end of WWII, and even after that.

But the main aspect of judo was indeed Kuzushi a even koryu jujutsu did not, instead relying on strength against strength while Kano's jujutsu relied on the advantage of the attacker's strengths and weaknesses, so much so, that people began to come from all over to see this new ju jutsu of Kano.

Barton-wright no doubt used judo technique in his "Bartitsu" and Yukio Tani engaged in "jacketed" matches in the early 20th century utilizing judo techniques still practiced today. In those days, some technique was held in check, as did Tani since he won matches repeatedly using the triangular choke/armlock, sankaku jime/gatame, only bringing out other techniques when this technique didn't work. But it was judo, and all or most are still practiced today.

Since history is often unkind, tidbits and a bit of deductive reasoning, or opinions, must be considered, as with the judogi, black obi, etc.

Despite all the history, I wouldn't dispute you, either Cris, I simply aknowledge the history of jujutsu, several styles, even Aikido today, in Kodokan judo. The Koshiki no kata is also referred to by "kitoryu no kata," and reasons are pretty simple since it is kitoryu jujutsu seen when performed.

Mark

PS: Thanks for the information, guys.

MarkF
3rd September 2001, 11:11
I thought I should do my job and provide the link to that article, even thought it may pour more iron on the fire, it is a great story:

http://ejmas.com/jalt/jaltart_Noble_1000.htm

Mark

47th ronin
3rd September 2001, 16:25
Dragon Times volume 16;

Ju-jutsu and Karate a Comparison and Analysis

Harry Cook

"The strongman and ju-jutsu promoter William Bankier asked Sadakazu Uyensishi of the Tenshin Shindo Ryu to demonstrate a way of of defending againsta punch. Bankier writes"Uyenishi, Tani's compatriot, was standing in front of me in the attitude of a boxer. I made a lunge at his face with my left arm. Like a flash he turned in a complete pirouette or circle. As the circle is completed his right leg was in the air. It was then brought back with all his power, and met me a crushing blow" Footnote from Ju-jutsu: What it really is William Bankier London 1905 pp 126-7.

As Tenshin Shindo Ryu was also the first style of ju-jutsu studied by EJ Harrison, the influence would obviously be seen in Budokwai
Judo in later years.

I would guess that the use of obi and belts may have been popularised in the Europe before Japan. Any pictures I have seen of Tani, Uyenishi, etc from the music hall days shows them in judo style gis, perhaps because their audience would be used to a jacket and collar style of wrestling? While Kimono or Hakama cover the legs, it may have been more reassuring for the paying public to see there was"nothing up their sleeves"(or hakama).

I asked about Uyenishi style because although I see judo people claiming Uyenishi as one of their own, there seems to be a lot of critiquing of his techniques from a judo perspective. "Not to critique a master..." began one such comment.

I have no doubt that Uyenishi was a very important figure in the development of Judo and Ju-jutsu in the west, but I do not think he was Kodokan. Unlees someone can provide his rank?

47th ronin
3rd September 2001, 17:47
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ben_Holmes
[B]



#2. is identical in rank structure (Uyenishi is wearing a black belt, his uke is wearing a white belt). Do you know of any Jujutsu style in the late 1800's or early 1900's that had already adopted the Kodokan ranking method?

"The founder of the Shinnoshindo-ryu was Yamato Tabizayemon, his school being a modified form of the Yoshin-ryu, and the names of many of the tricks are the same in both. They were clasified into
shodan(preliminary rank);chudan(middle rank), and jodan(upper rank)". pg 17

"I may mention, as an incidental personal detail, that m y first introduction to the study of ju-juts was as a "disciple" of theTenshin Shinyo-ryu at Yokohama, where I gained a diploma as shodan, the lowest teaching grade, before entering the Kodokwan in Tokyo" pg 18

The Art of Ju-Jutsu EJ Harrison Published under the auspices of Professor Yukio Tani.

Sounds like at least one other ju-jutsu style was issuing shodan teaching diploma in the late 1800's/

Brian Griffin
4th September 2001, 00:44
Originally posted by 47th ronin

"...They were clasified into shodan(preliminary rank);chudan(middle rank), and jodan(upper rank)"

"...I gained a diploma as shodan, the lowest teaching grade, before entering the Kodokwan in Tokyo"

Sounds like at least one other ju-jutsu style was issuing shodan teaching diploma in the late 1800's

Sorry...but the operative word here is diploma.

The reference is to the names of three levels of license awarded in that style.
These are not black-belt grades ( dan-i ).
They are part of the older system of menkyo (licensing) used before Kano's invention of the modern kyu/dan system.

47th ronin
4th September 2001, 17:57
Originally posted by Brian Griffin


Sorry...but the operative word here is diploma.

The reference is to the names of three levels of license awarded in that style.
These are not black-belt grades ( dan-i ).
They are part of the older system of menkyo (licensing) used before Kano's invention of the modern kyu/dan system.

I thought that was a little to easy to find! Thank you Brian , for correcting me and my limited knowledge of Japanese terminology.

Ben_Holmes
5th September 2001, 04:08
Let me add my thanks to Brian as well, since I just came across the same strange reference to shodan in "Martial Musings" by Robert Smith... and I was puzzling over it!! Good timing!!