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Burt
2nd September 2001, 19:56
Hi.

Why did you or should anyone choose Aikido and not Judo Or Jiu-jitsu, if someone wants to learn self-defense?

Has Aikido got the best self-defense system or is there another style that's better?

Hope some will help. Thanks.

Scott
3rd September 2001, 02:32
Hello Burt,

Welcome to the Forum. Your question you will find is not easy to answer. Which M.A. to train in is a highly personal decision. You might as well ask someone Chevy or Ford, S&W or Colt, Football or Basketball? Each M.A. offers something different. Each M.A. school has a different personality based on the attitude of the instructor and advanced students. You may attend a school from a particular art that you cannot stand, but move across town to another school of the same art and love it.

Generally speaking, Judo will provide you with skills to throw someone onto the ground choke them out or control them from the ground. Judo practitioners start by grasping one and other’s jackets. If your opponent, in a real life situation, does not grasp you must grasp him in order to execute your technique. Generally speaking, you will not find strikes, blocks, kicks or body movements other than falls and rolls in Judo. Judo also has a sporting element that some find over exaggerated from the original intent of the art. Judo was originally created to be a form of personal cultivation through sport. Judo can be quite brutal on your body. Especially if you are near age 40 and you are training with young and aggressive practitioners. A lot depends on how hard you are thrown and what kind of floor you are training on.

Ju-jutsu styles are quite numerous. What you will learn in a particular school depends on the schools style. Generally, Ju-jutsu will include, strikes, low kicks, rolls, falls, joint manipulation, and chokes. Ju-jutsu tends to be much more self-defense focused than Aikido and Judo. Of course, remember, it depends on the instructor and style of the individual Aikido and Judo school. Ju-jutsu techniques are quite brutal on the body as well. Joints locks are painful and an aggressive, inconsiderate partner can injure you easily. Tendons and ligaments take a while to heal, which should be a consideration if you are approaching 40 years of age. A good instructor will control the aggressiveness of their students towards each other, but accidents and over-zealousness does occur. I have not noticed extensive evasive movements in Ju-jutsu, but that does not mean it does not occur. There is some variation from style to style, but generally Ju-jutsu has responses to strikes, grabs, kicks and attempted throws. Many Ju-jutsu schools will teach grappling skills as well.

Aikido is my second art. My first is Kung Fu. Aikido is more or less a middle road between Judo and Ju-jutsu. There are throws as in Judo and Ju-jutsu, but generally the opponent is thrown to the ground in a manner that allows them to roll. Rolling is much less painful than a fall. A fall occurs when the momentum of your landing abruptly meets the ground, usually perpendicularly. During a roll the momentum meets the ground at an angle in a manner that allows the student to roll or slide. There are falls in Aikido, but most of the time we roll. Aikido has joint locks as in Ju-jutsu and on occasion chokes are practiced. Aikido is generally a responsive art. An Aikidoka will receive the attack momentum of an opponent, control the momentum and then redirect it away from himself. The Aikidoka may initiate a strike or movement towards an opponent in order to elicit a reaction and then perform a technique in response to that action. Aikido has responses to strikes, grabs, kicks and attempted throws.

Aikido has a unique type of body movement that is drawn from the sword arts. I believe that the body movements alone are a good reason to learn Aikido. If I could only teach or learn one simple thing related to self-defense it would be the Aikido Tai Sabaki (body movements). It is a form of evasion that, when combined with parries and or blocks, is all an individual needs to defend themselves. You basically evade until you get in the clear and then run away. It would not be as effective if you had others to defend though.

Aikido does not use kicks. The use of striking varies depending on the style and school. The strikes are not particularly street applicable for delivery, but do reflect general directions of attack one should learn to respond to when being attacked.

Aikido involves the reception of an opponent’s momentum of attack and turning that momentum against the opponent. Forms of projection are used to move the opponent away from you. Control techniques are utilized for immobilizing the opponent on the ground.

Aikido is generally considered to take longer to learn than Judo and Ju-jutsu. Aikido, when practiced appropriately can be practiced into your advanced years, although the younger more inexperienced students tend to be overly aggressive as they are in any art.

It is advisable for you to observe some classes of each art in which you are interested. Talk to the instructors and observe how they interact with their students. Is it a friendly environment? How structured are the classes?
Some traditional classes take some getting used too. They tend to have an hierarchical system that makes some people uncomfortable. I would not concern myself with how many trophies are displayed in the school. Many schools display trophies as a marketing tool. Numerous trophies do not guarantee good instruction.

I hope this is of some benefit to you.

Sincerely,

Scott R. Brown

P.S. The Forum rules request that you sign your posts with your full name. New members frequently forget, myself included when I began posting.

Jens
3rd September 2001, 10:10
Hi Burt,

I'd say it all (almost, at least) depends on your teacher. Since I've been moving around a lot, I've visited and trained at a couple of aikido dojos. They range from "new-agey" to hard-core. If you find one of the latter, you will probably be able to learn good self-defense. Also, you will want to check out what kind of people train there. If you find some law-enforcement officers in class - I'd say that's a good sign.

Regards,
Jens Nasstrom

Gil Gillespie
3rd September 2001, 13:47
Good question, Burt, and Scott your inter-art compendium was very succinct and well done.

The question of "why aikido" always hearkens me back to a signboard posted outside a seminar in Canada almost 20 (?) years ago. Paraphrasing drastically it read:

want to learn how to fight?
keep walking
want to learn self-defense?
keep walking
want to invest the next many years of your life learning how to become a better person?
then come in and meet Mochizuki Sensei.

(Minoru Mochizuki is the last of Ueshiba Sensei's pre-war cadre and founder of Yoseikan Budo in Shizuoka, Japan. Holder of over 60 dan rankings, he was sent by Kano Sensei to study with Ueshiba and took Aikido to France the year before Tomiki took it to Hawaii. Now in his 90's, Mochizuki Sensei lives in France with his son, Hiroo. Yoseikan Hombu still carries on in Shizuoka.)

Mochizuki Sensei's sign has always put the aikido priorities in order for me. As O-Sensei crafted aikido it was a "polishing art," the practical combat basics were understood. Accomplished budoka gravitated to his art. A lot of purely technique-oriented budoka huff about how they don't "buy into the magic," when what they really mean is that they don't buy into the MESSAGE.

As a great sensei said years ago, "If you're only here for self-defense don't waste my time. Go buy a gun."

Scott
3rd September 2001, 14:30
Gil,

Thank you for the compliment. Your contribution was very informative. I did forget to mention that Aikido is a common second art for many martial artists.

As an added point to Burt, O Sensei recommended that Akidoka train in a joyful manner. A rare recommendation in any art. I have to say I find Aikido a way above average art. If I could only train in one art, I would choose Aikido and that is with 27 years experience and experience and knowledge of nearly a dozen arts.

Some of the real world applications take a little modification, but that depends on the particular school as well.

Sincerely,

Scott R. Brown

Burt
3rd September 2001, 17:59
But Gil I can't just go buy a gun I don't live in USA. (sorry bad joke :-))

I actually see your point and it's no that I want to tearn self defense to get out of fights (I've never been in one). The reason I'm looking for a self defence art is that I studied Karate some years ago and I got really tired of the competition/sport element and the fact that it was only an "attack" art.

Now I'm looking for a new martial art and I'd rather study a self defense martial art that I'm never going to use in real life than an "attack" martial art I'm never going to use. I know I'm not going to fight, but I never know if someone wants to fight me.

Thanks for the help from all three. You all seem experienced cn you tell something about the other things you've studied. (pros / cons) Scott you said you would choose Aikido if you could choose only one, what else did/do you train?

Thanks again, I'm very greatful for your help.

Yours

Jack L. Rasmussen

Gil Gillespie
3rd September 2001, 18:26
Hi Jack

Just a couple notes you may already know:

1. A good instructor & good group are WAY more important than any art or style. Trust your feelings about a dojo more than seeking any specific preconceived art.

2. Don't take e-budo posters at face value, i.e. someone with only 15 or 20 posts may be a godan with 30 years experience. Most of our heavy hitters lurk, read, & seldom post, unlike yours truly, the transplanted New Jersey blabbermouth.

Scott
3rd September 2001, 20:54
Hello Jack,

I have studied White Crane Kung Fu, Shaolin, Tai Chi, Judo, a number of Ju-jutsu styles, Aiki-jujutsu, Aikido, A little bit of wrestling and ground fighting and a little bit of kenjutsu (Japanese sword arts), some western sword arts, Ba Qua (a Chinese internal style), boxing, and some American Kenpo. I think that is all of them. Not all of these were studied in a formal environment.

I have enjoyed most or all of these various arts and I hope to continue learning all or bits of other arts. I enjoy Aikido the most. I am 42 years old and still quite fit, however Aikidoka need not be the athlete that is required to excel in many other arts. Judo will require more fitness, as will Kung Fu and Karate styles. Aikido is considered a gentle art and it verges on being an internal art. It is more physical than other internal arts, but not as physical or aggressive as an external art. Aikido is a compilation of sword arts, Ju-jutsu and Aiki-jujutsu with a little spear, jo (short staff), and bayonet thrown in. It is designed to allow the practitioner to practice well into their old age.

The quality of your training will depend upon the instructor and the branch of Aikido in which you are training. Aikikai is the home or official style. Many Aikikai schools train with the wooden sword and the short staff (The jo is a stick approximately 4.5 ft. long x 1 ¼ inch in diameter) Tomiki is a branch that prefers to compete which is not what the founder desired, but many find effective on the street. Tomiki also practices counters to the Aikido techniques. Ki Society is generally more new agey. They focus on the development of ki and are generally considered to be the least martial or practical branch. Yoshinkan is an effective form of self-defense popular with Japanese law enforcement. It is harder (read more forceful or harsh) in its execution of techniques. The founder of Yoshinkan studied under O Sensei prior to WWII when the art was practiced in a manner closer to Aiki-jujutsu. It is generally considered more martial in its execution than other Aikido branches. The Honbu style is a branch led by the last great student of O Sensei. He studied with O Sensei around 20 years up until his death. They train with the wooden sword and short staff as well.

Depending on what is available in your area and the quality of the instructor you would benefit the most from Aikikai, Yoshinkan or Honbu not necessarily in that order. I would personally count myself lucky to train in any of these three. I would not shy away from Tomiki if it were the only style available. I personally would avoid Ki Society. They are considered the touchy-feely branch. I have nothing against this style it just does not fit my personality or training goals. If one is available in your area observe and judge for yourself.

I hope this helps.

Sincerely,

Scott R. Brown

Jens
3rd September 2001, 21:26
Jack,

I not very experienced, but I did practice shotokan karate before aikido, and in my humble (?) opinion I believe this to be an advantage. Since no offensive techniques are taught in aikido (at least not everywhere), many practicioners simply don't know how to execute a reasonably strong attack with proper intent. Which in turn means their partners never really learn to defend. As I believe someone mentioned in an earlier post, aikido was originally taught to students with a solid foundation in another art (kendo, judo, karate), so this was hardly an issue in the early days.

Also, if you studied one of the harder forms of karate, you probably learned the most valuable lesson of all: how to take a punch. There are too many people nowadays who take classes in tae-bo, boxercise, mcdojo self-defence courses, etc., and believe they can defend themselves...only to discover that a light punch to the nose will send them into panic-mode. Simply because they never experienced it before. There's more to self-defence than mere techniques. As you all probably knew already.

Hope I didn't waste anyone's time.

Jens Nasstrom

PRehse
3rd September 2001, 21:45
It's actually very simple. Both Aikido and Judo are forms of Jujitsu and both at their most basic level are a collection of fighting techniques and principles.

If you find a dojo where the emphasis is self defence then either will serve you well. The Jujitsu classes you see in many Judo schools are just Judo with a self defence bent. Some even teach a self defence kata developed for the Kodokan by a master of Judo and AIkido which is very heavy on the latter. In any case there is a lot more to Judo than what you see in competition.

General rule of thumb with Aikido is that styles derived from the pre-war students of Ueshiba tend towards the effective. These include the Yoshinkan mentioned above, Yoseikan (Mochizuki) and Shodokan (Tomiki). There is a reason that the two largest cities prefer to have their elite police units taught these styles; Tokyo - Yoshinkan, Osaka - Shodokan. That does not mean that other Aikido styles are useless but it really depends on the teacher. As I think someone mentioned - watch the class, find out who and what the students are.


Scott - Honbu is the origin dojo of any of the styles. By your post it sounds as if you mean Iwama.

Scott
3rd September 2001, 22:45
Peter,

Thank you for the correction, Iwama is the branch of Saito Sensei. I guess I had brain freeze.

Jens,

You make some good points, but they do not apply to all Aikido Schools.

It is not necessary, although it is beneficial, to learn to attack as effectively as a more aggressive art. The three main forms of striking in Aikido are generaliazed forms of common street attacks. Of course if an individaul is planning to using his skills frequently on the street some reality scenarios would be an effective means of training. Most people who train in Aikido are not interested in street fighting. The common training methods of the three branches I mentioned would be adequate for the majority ofpeople. Of course I caveat with it depends on the instructor as well.

Sincerely,

Scott R. Brown

Burt
3rd September 2001, 23:05
Non of the styles you mention are available here, the ones I have to choose from are:

AIKIDO
AMERICAN KENPO KARATE
CHAKIBO (KICKBOXING)
DAITORYU AIKIJUJUTSU ROPPOKAI
HSING YI
JUDO
KARATE-DO ICHIRO
KENPO JU JITSU
NINJUTSU/BUJINKAN
MODERN ARNIS
SHAOLIN KUNG FU & PRAYING MANTIS KUNG FU
TAI CHI CHUAN

Any thoughts on these martial arts?

And Scott: what is this Ki Society, I’ve never heard of this.

Yours,
Jack L. Rasmussen

Scott
3rd September 2001, 23:10
I would explore:

DAITORYU AIKIJUJUTSU ROPPOKAI or AIKIDO. Roppokai is a facinating branch of Aiki-jujutsu. It can be brutal on the body. They perform some high falls and painful joint locks. Once agin it depends on the instructor. I am unfamilair with Chakibo, but any of the others would be of value to learn depending on the instructor and your training goals.

Sincerely,

Scott R. Brown

Scott
3rd September 2001, 23:17
Jack,

Ki Society Aikido focuses on Aikido as exercises to develop ki and less as a martial art. I has some ceremony and quite a bit of mediations and moving ki exercises. Think of it as more personal cultivation rather than martial art.

Sincerely,

Scott R. Brown

Jim Hadden
3rd September 2001, 23:19
Burt
If after checking out the Aikido school and it seems a bit sketchy to you, I would definately check out the Daito Ryu and/or the Hsing (y)I. Daito ryu being the parent art of Aikido, and Hsing I is an internal Chinese art which if I'm not mistaken is one of the few battlefield proven arts.

Good Luck
Jim Hadden

Jeff Hamacher
4th September 2001, 09:00
Originally posted by Scott
It is not necessary, although it is beneficial, to learn to attack as effectively as a more aggressive art.
i'm not dead certain what you mean by these words, Scott, so please feel free to expand upon them or correct me if my response seems inappropriate.

all of the teachers under whom i've had the pleasure to train insist that a committed, solid attack from uke is absolutely necessary; otherwise the meaning of training is lost and what is supposed to be a martial art becomes ballroom dancing, to paraphrase their words. Seki-sensei of the Honbu is particularly strict on this point and never fails to grill uke who go halfway with their attacks, especially when he's shite.

of course, students with less experience aren't expected to produce superior techniques, and similarly aren't expected to produce superior attacks. conversely, a senior student is not likely to lay into a junior student with everything they've got; everybody has to train with a sense of how they will best help their partner to improve, and this may involve showing a bit of restraint.

in an attempt to tie this into the topic, aikido is excellent for people who want a good physical and mental workout, who aren't interested in amassing rows of tournament trophies on their bedroom walls, and who have some desire to gain knowledge of and experience in "traditional" japanese martial arts training. my own experience tells me that it should be shinken shoubu ("a victory decided with live blades"), and thus each partner should push the other to their limits with every technique and attack, but at the end of the day everyone should be able to walk away with no hard feelings or broken friendships (or bones, for that matter).

every school has its own flavour, and i'll second the comments upthread: visit the dojo, talk to the students and teacher, and do this a few times if you are given permission to do so. if you like the vibe then you can likely trust your gut; if you don't, get the hell away and keep looking until you get a good vibe.

red_fists
4th September 2001, 09:13
Hi.

I agree if you can't get to Akido, Daito Ryu go for Hsing Yi.

Hsing Yi was founded by a Chinese General who applied spear techniques to the Fighting System.

It is the most external of the 3 chinese Internal Martial Arts.
You can develop a very strong Chi/Ki by using Hsing Yi.

I would also recommend Tai Chi Chuan, but than I don't know if that School teaches Health Tai Chi or the proper fighting System.

Hope this helps.

Jens
4th September 2001, 10:14
Scott,

I see what you mean, but I wasn't thinking of realistic, street-style attacks. What I find most important about an attack is intent and commitment. The most basic form of "attack", the katatedori (wrist-grab) is far from being realistic, but that really doesn't matter. What matters is that you not only grab your opponent, but that you grab him/her as if you were really executing an aggressive, all-out attack. The amount of physical force you use should of course be different according your partner's level, but the intent should always be that of a serious attack. And although I only have a gut-feeling to back this up, people who have some experience in other (harder) martial arts are often better at this (when they first enter the dojo, that is). Of course, many aikido teachers are very good at teaching this. But then again, there are those who fail to stress the importance of a solid attack and only focus on uke's technique. And in my opinion, that's only a small part of what aikido is all about.

Sincerely,

Jens Nasstrom

Scott
4th September 2001, 18:53
Hi Jeff,

Thank you for your comments. I had to laugh!! It is funny how easy it is to be unclear when attempting to communicate. What I wrote and what was in my mind attempting to come were not in the same thing.

Yes definitely attacks in Aikido are intended to be with full commitment. Having trained in other arts including boxing, the attacks of Aikido are not similar. In Aikido, one does not learn how to attack with the intensity of other martial systems or with the combinations, bobs, weaves, feints etc. One does not learn the variety of strikes and does not spar as in other systems; therefore one does not learn to attack with the same effectiveness. I do not believe it is necessary to learn to attack with the same effectiveness; Aikido is a defensive and responsive art. Atemi is used for creating an opening and not an attempt to damage the opponent. All one must learn is how to defend. It is beneficial to learn to defend against all variety of striking attacks, however the three primary Aikido attacks cover the general directions and forms of attack one would receive in an encounter. So, it could be argued that it would not be absolutely necessary to learn these other forms of striking.

Sincerely, Scott R. Brown

Scott
4th September 2001, 19:02
Jens,

Believe it or not my brother-in-law whom, I have known for 30 years, was actually grabbed on both wrists by one security person at a concert. My brother-in-law was attempting to control a friend and security had no idea what was going on. After escaping the hold and embarassing security he explained to them what was going on and they left with their tails between their legs.

Sincerely,

Scott R. Brown

Scott
4th September 2001, 19:04
Jens,

Also what I meant by basic form of attack, was basic form of "striking" attack.

Scott R. Brown

Jens
4th September 2001, 20:02
Ooops, I just re-read my last post and the last sentence should of course be:

"But then again, there are those who fail to stress the importance of a solid attack and only focus on shite's technique. And in my opinion, that's only a small part of what aikido is all about."

Sincerely,
Jens Nasstrom

Mike Collins
4th September 2001, 21:04
Disregard style. Some people claim to teach things that they may not actually teach. Some are simply not any good at teaching what they teach. Some are geniuses and are not recognized by their arts.

Go. Watch. Ask if you can try a class or two. Watch some more. Train where your gut tells you to train.

The worst that can happen is you'll make a mistake, but it will be your own mistake, not the mistake of "Brand name recognition".

If you live in an area with all of those arts, you should be able to find one good teacher. It doesn't really make all that much difference which art you study if the teacher is the best possible, the people are amicable, the art's principles are examined, and you keep an open mind.

No, no, forget all that. Do Aikido. It's the only true martial art.


Or not.....

Nami
18th October 2001, 06:08
:karatekid

Konnichi wa. My name is Alex and I just recently joined the list here.

I have been in and out of the Martial Arts for a while. First it was Shotokan Karate in college, then it was Mong Su Dom Tai (some kind of "new" Chinese Karate), then it was Jenenkan. And to be quite frank and honest, I did not stick with these. The Shotokan was 2 semmesters in College. The Mong Su Dom Tai was expencive and I lost my job. And the Jenenkan I quit after 2 months due to family obligations and...I found out they practiced Ninjitsu which made me leery because I don't know the "REAL" (And non-biased)history behind the Ninja.

But I degress....to answer the question, "Why Aikido?":

Well, I guess to answer that, I have to state what kind of woman I am and that is not easy. My spirit is that of two different aspects...the "Warrior" and the "Priestess".

The Warrior, is that part of me that tries to endure any hardships set into my path. Also, I am very protective of my loved ones...mess with them, and you mess with me.

The Priestess, is the spirtual part of me. I always try to walk the right path that will align me with divinity.

So when picking a martial art, outside of price range and location...the Warrior askes "Will this Art help me in defending myself and my loved ones?" The Priestess askes: "Will this Art help reflect my morals?"

My morals are this: I do not wish to hurt people...or rather the best word would be "harm". The very worst I would want to do to an "oponant" is to land them in the hospital for a while. But I do not wish to take a life no matter what the "oponent" may wish to do to me or has done. A life is a life whether that life is good or evil. And everyone deserves a second chance to "see the light" as it were.

So far, I have found the art of Aikido is so far the one that fits my morals best. I have recently found a dojo here in Cincinnati that was recommended to me. The $60/month price tag made me cringe, but hopefuly with a new job (just recently moved here), I think it might be worth it.

:D

rupert
18th October 2001, 09:17
Why Aikido? - I must have asked myself that a thousand times. Thinking it was lacking I strayed to several other arts but was often dissapointed with what I found, although I may have learned something that aided (sometimes hindered) my Aiki in the process. As a result, I have continued Aikido since I have found nothing better that suits my psyche. Perhaps in the beginning of my search Aikido did not have what I was seeking but now, I can find everything I need within Aikido. I guess it is different for every person of course. Others can find the wame satisfaction in other arts.

Rupert Atkinson
Seoul

Aikieagle
20th October 2001, 05:20
regarding striking, and i think most people know this, but it doesnt take much proficiency to learn how to punch or strike. This is WHY it is much easier to advance in systems as such. This i know from my experience, and i think most people who have taken an striking art also would understand. It doesnt take a genius to learn how to hit, i can bring a 7 foot guy in the dojo and i guarantee he will always hit harder than me. We've brought people on the mat who thought board breaking is a magical feat and taught them to brake it in one class. To hit is a instinctive and reactive measure, it doesnt take much thought. When in motion during class(Aikido), at anypoint i choose i could hit uke where ever i wanted, it's not that hard(and in applied situations it is necessary). Or at anypoint i could break his arm, or neck, or kill him, but what skill is in that?? not much. A gorilla can kill you, a gorilla can hit you. So where is the learning?
This is the thin line between Karate, Jujitsu, and Aikido....action. The moment i decide to hit uke, it becomes "empty handed", it becomes a stirking art. When i decide to break uke's arm, or choke him, it becomes jujitsu. The advantage of aikido, that karate and jujitsu by themselves can not offer, is the ability to react in several ways. With karate there is only one way to react, hit! With jujitsu there is one way to react, pain! But alone they can not move from out of their boxes. Their image does not permit them to do so. But someone in Aikido....they can move from one box to another. if one decides to strike you can do so, if one decides to choke you can do so, if one decides to control you can do so. Aikido is like a car's speedometer, it goes 120 different speeds. Karate is stuck on 90, jujitsu is stuck on 110. Aikido can go 20, 60, 80, 120, whatever the driver decides. This is the advantage i see in Aikido, you dont have to go one speed all your life. I cant go 120 when im in my neighborhood, nor can i go 20 on the highway. This is what we strive for, control of oneself, and ultimately perfection of our control so that it can expand beyond ourselves. Who of us remembers in Karate Kid III when ralph beat the crap out of that kid in the club? That was karate going one speed and not stopping. If this is what one strives for then goodluck b/c you will have a hard time interacting with the rest of the world like that. Exherting force on others does not take a black belt; get a mean look, lift weights, and talk sh%$ and i guarantee you can put force on other people.
But to please the questioning student in the Dojo "What if i do this?" We do self defense againsts jabs, back fists, spin kicks, defense against bears, flying torpedos, and Godzilla(last three were sarcasm). Anything you can think of we can do, that is for sure. So there is no limitation in Aikido, which is different from most other arts. The only limitation is the one that the student puts on himself. Anyone who has been put through a hellish training sometime in their tenor in MA will know what im talking about. My teacher could come at me with a toilet and i should know what to do....that's what training is for....to learn what to do....thank you.

Cesar
p.s. i hope i didnt offend anyone, but if i did, it only means one thing.......;)

sanskara
1st November 2001, 07:52
Sorry, I just couldn't let this one go. While it is true that in comparison to other styles of Aikido the Ki Society can be a bit New Agey and cult-like, as has already been stated in this thread, it depends on the Dojo. I trained for about ten years in the Ki Society and had numerous opportunities to test the techniques and methodologies of the organization in question, and they do work. Also, keep in mind that the Ki Society was founded by Koichi Tohei, one of the most senior students of Morihei Ueshiba. It's hard to imagine Ueshiba handing out a tenth Dan and the office of Chief Instructor to someone who isn't martially effective--nevermind, the unprecedented challenges that Tohei was forced to participate in during his first few tours in the U.S. spreading the art of Aikido.
Furthermore, for those who would raise the question, my martial background prior to the Ki Society was extensive and included a rather rough childhood that gave me ample opportunity to hone my fighting skills. The upshot being that Ki Society technique worked beautifully on me, and in the hands of a skilled practitioner it will work on you too. Granted, over the years, Tohei's organization has moved more and more towards Japanese Yoga, the truth is that there are some very powerful Shihan and even more common practitioners currently under the Ki no Kenkyukai umbrella. So while the Ki Society "may" not be the fastest path to martial effectiveness, in the end, it gets you there.

Regards,
James Bostwick

Ron Tisdale
1st November 2001, 17:17
I must second James' post. I have trained with some ki-society instructors who were truly phenomenal, and there was no lack of "martial" in their technique. In fact, the harder my attack, the harder I bounced. Terry Peirce Sensei is a great example of this.

Ron Tisdale

Jeff Cook
4th November 2001, 04:26
"The advantage of aikido, that karate and jujitsu by themselves can not offer, is the ability to react in several ways. With karate there is only one way to react, hit! With jujitsu there is one way to react, pain! But alone they can not move from out of their boxes. Their image does not permit them to do so. But someone in Aikido....they can move from one box to another."

Sorry, I can't let this one go by. The above quote shows an astonishing, and disturbing, level of ignorance of the arts mentioned. These types of comments are not healthy for the image of aikido, and fortunately do not represent the opinions of the majority of aikidoka.

Perhaps the poster should actually examine these arts before making blanket statements. Start with Wado Ryu karate, then check out Shinto Yoshin jujitsu. I would suspect you will re-evaluate.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

Goju Man
6th November 2001, 22:35
Hello, I'm new to the Aikido forum, but could not resist the question. I think it is a valid one. IMHO, Aikido, like Judo or Karate or BJJ is only part of the puzzle. I would not want to hang my hat on just one. I beleive that a long time ago, the arts were closer to being one than they are today. The old warriors had to learn combat, period. I'm sure they could easily throw, strike or use their weapons. They had to be equally prepared for anything that came their way.


Regards,
Manny Salazar;)

Aikieagle
7th November 2001, 06:27
dont get me wrong, i believe there is always an exception to the rules, and im sure there is some MA out there that will disprove what i said. But this really only goes for maybe 15% of martial arts, the rest of the 75% of the most widely practiced MA will fall into what i said.
Now, im not making a blind statement, nor would i assume something that i dont know, i have practiced Karate and Jujitsu before and even during my aikido training. And from all the school's that i have practiced or visited, never have i seen one that would show me another idea.
im not saying that i represent all of aikido, that's not my posistion, and really i wouldnt care if "the mob" agreed with me. But these are ideas that i have noticed, i wouldnt never assume i know what a universal truth is. I dont think anyone can claim that, im just stating what i have noticed in my training. And for the most part, it is always true with the people and training that i have encountered.
I think, for most of us, when our art is attacked we get really defensive instead of asking ourselves if what was said was true or not. Right now i can list a million things wrong with aikido, but i have also noticed a million things wrong with other arts. if we fail to see these failures then our sharpness will become dull, we have to keep sharpening our "sword" in order to use it. Otherwise we leave ourselves open and claim "we didnt know".
"When things seem safe, that is when danger comes."
-Seven Samurai

--Cesar

Jeff Cook
7th November 2001, 11:09
Cesar,

There's nothing wrong with those arts; there's something wrong with the people you observed practicing those arts. Another possibility is that you only observed a very small part of their curriuculum, and did not get the opportunity to observe the higher principles of those arts.


You can find many crappy schools out there of ALL arts. Unfortunately they help form the perception that their arts are shallow and incomplete. That is because the practitioner is shallow and incomplete, and did not learn the higher principles of their chosen art.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

ranZ
11th November 2001, 18:47
on that "What if i do this" question. We once asked that to our sensei, "what if someone puts a knife to your back?" there was an answer, "what if someone puts a gun to your back?" there was an aswer. "What if i get mugged on the bus" there was also an answer. "What if i get mugged on the bus by 3 people sitting in front, next and behind me (which happens alot here)". sensei said jokingly : "Heck, give em your watch and wallet." :eek: In a way, i think it's a very good advise for new students, so they don't act like they're seagal and pulls some chop-chop crap and end up dead penniless. ;)

on Ki no Kenyukai, i've trained several months under this style, but i don't feel any new-age-y or cult thingie.