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Howard Kaplan
3rd September 2001, 00:50
Hi,

Is it true to say that Hiji Shime (perhaps of Yonshinkan Aikido) is in essence Waki Gatame (perhaps of Tomiki or Judo) ? (Or vice versa)

Any thoughts ?

PRehse
3rd September 2001, 01:02
Short answer is Yes.

More complex is that the wakagatame of Tomiki is in essence a lock applied to the wrist and forearm. The potential for dropping down and destroying the elbow is there which conversely keeps uke from standing up but properly executed there should be no pressure on the elbow.

For an mpeg of Nariyama Shihan of the Shodokan Honbu performing the technique please see

http://homepage2.nifty.com/shodokan/history/kyogi/kihon/hiji_e.html

You will note that it is classed as a hiji waza and it's origin is not Daito-ryu.

Howard Kaplan
3rd September 2001, 01:06
THANKS !

No pressure on the elbow ? More so on the shoulder ha ? Body weight pressures the opponent's torso down yeah - rather than on the elbow. Now that I think about it, I guess that could be the diff ! Hiji Shime works the elbow, Waki does to a lesser degree.

PRehse
3rd September 2001, 01:15
Not quite. If you want to take the guy down hard and hurting - you just drop. Good bye elbow - please take a look at the mpeg.

My point is that the execution of the technique is such that it is not necessary to break the elbow for the technique to work. In Aikido we should attempt to control rather than destroy. I am pretty sure the hiji shime in Yoshinkan has the same principle in mind.

Bambi
3rd September 2001, 13:57
I wrote out a long reply to this but lost it because I mistyped me password :(

Digest version of the lost post: hiji shime and waki gatame as I've experienced them are not the same technique. Similar but not the same

BTW Peter, have you had the yoshinkan etc version of hijishime performed on you? I'm not being sarky here, I ask only because in my Tomiki days I presumed the same thing as you do, they certainly looked similar. When I first felt hiji shime being performed I was "suprised" to say the least. :)

Ron Tisdale
3rd September 2001, 16:30
I've seen and felt the Yoshinkan version of hiji shime in a couple of different ways...Some are more of a standing technique, causing the uke to actually move backwards into a backward roll to relieve the pressure on the elbow and shoulder, some to drop uke straight down (very little pain on this one but mucho control). I've also seen people like Amos Parker shihan take uke to the mat and do a reclining pin (more like the judo newaza than is usually seen in aikido).

I'd say that the lock affects the elbow and shoulder in the versions I use and have felt (no guarantee that that is correct). When Robert Mustard sensei used that lock on me I felt no pain at all...But I was on the floor and had no chance for any escape or counter in the blink of an eye. One of the reasons I include the elbow lock in this version is that when Mustard sensei taught it, the entry was from a first control movement, where he had us track the position of the elbow through the entire technique to get the correct placement at the final moment of application.

An independant instructor trained in ki-society and under Yamada sensei had a different name for the technique, but it was used like Mustard sensei's...I droped straight down, no pain, total control of my center.

The version that I use the most (causing uke to do a backward roll) requires that shite use a forward pivot to apply the pressure...I have found that if uke is not prepared to do a backward roll, it is easy to do damage with this, and uke that are not prepared can be hurt *very* easily. The trick seem to be not to apply pressure down here, but to get real snug, then pivot from the hips first, then sweep the leg forward. The last time I used this in randori with a non-yoshinkan student, they were totally unaware of how compromised they were until I did the forward pivot (slowly). Then they responded by tapping out immediately.

Ron (for what its worth) Tisdale

PRehse
3rd September 2001, 19:22
Well I've had a Yoshinkan guy put a wakigatame on me - does that count.

In my first response I said yes and then qualified the statement. In Shodokan (ie Tomiki) there are the kihon versions (both toshu and tanto) and a whole lot of variations, both official and unofficial. These variations include (if I remember correctly) the hiji shime of Yoshinkan or at least one of its variations. Based on the name alone they are the same technique.



Originally posted by Bambi
Digest version of the lost post: hiji shime and waki gatame as I've experienced them are not the same technique. Similar but not the same

BTW Peter, have you had the yoshinkan etc version of hijishime performed on you? I'm not being sarky here, I ask only because in my Tomiki days I presumed the same thing as you do, they certainly looked similar. When I first felt hiji shime being performed I was "suprised" to say the least. :)

dakotajudo
3rd September 2001, 20:47
My understanding of hiji-shime is that it is a variation of the nikkyo lock. This is a bit different than judo's waki-gatame, which uses the standard ude-hishigi grip.

You can legally apply ude-hishigi waki-gatame (the full and proper name) in competition, but hiji-shime, at least as described in Ueshiba K.'s book, would not be legal, since in involves a wrist lock as well as the elbow lock.

However, if you entered hiji-shime from an ikkyo grip, it would probably be much like waki-gatame.

PRehse
3rd September 2001, 21:26
Now I'm getting confused and yes it is possible that I am wrong.:o

Best I can do now is offer another mpeg which sounds more like Peter C. was describing. Is there an mpeg somewhere with the hiji shime shown.

http://members.nbci.com/ASATS/
Hit Reference Technique then Kihon Suwariwaza then 4
you should have
Tentai oshi taoshi gyakute dori kote hineri ude hineri osae

dakotajudo
3rd September 2001, 23:02
Oops, I was referring to the kote-mawashi part of nikkyo, not the seated pin (which is what the mpeg shows).

This picture (http://judoinfo.com/images/kansetsu/waki_gatame.gif) shows the standard waki-gatame - note that both hands grip around the forearm.

This photo (http://judoinfo.com/images/ejc/class8.jpg) looks like the waki-gatame demonstrated on the web site Peter R. cited.

This photo (http://judoinfo.com/wakigata.jpg) is more like what I consider hiji-shime - note that one hand is controlling the wrist.

Hope that makes things more clear.

Ron Tisdale
4th September 2001, 12:41
Here is a link to photos (mpeg on the same site) of the technique I referred to as the one I do more often.

http://www.yoshinkai.org/doshinkan/apr99/apr99_photos.htm

While the wrist is controlled, I'm not sure of just how important it is beyond achieving proper placement of the elbow. The description and notes on the page describe this version better than I did. Is this the "yoshinkan" version that you remember Peter? Or was it more like the other ones I tried to describe? The last of the judo photos I saw looked quite familiar...

If anyone is interested, the shite is Yukio Utada Sensei, who will be instructing at the Aiki Expo in Las Vegas.

It may be worth while to take a look at Steven Miranda sensei's site...he has many technique clips on there, I believe.

Ron Tisdale

PRehse
4th September 2001, 14:19
Ron;

No doubt about it now that is what I would call wakagatame and yes very similar to what was done to me.

The technique as shown there actually looks like a combination of two techniques in Tomiki's Junanahon. The initial movement looks like Ude hineri which is also classed as an elbow technique.

http://www.tomiki.org/nariyamahiji.html

The actual version of wakagatame looks very close to what often gets executed during full resistance randori.

Peter - your third picture is a classic wakigatame although as you point out only one hand controls the wrist. Variations.

Mike Collins
4th September 2001, 21:10
Looks like rokkyo.

Unless you're one who believes there's no such thing as Rokkyo. In which case it's a nikkyo variation.

Often done as a tanto dori technique.

Scary stuff if done well. Fun though.

Chuck Clark
5th September 2001, 08:08
Just my 2 yen worth here...

The difference between these two techniques is contained in the two names as far as I can tell. One is a holding technique and the other is a wringing technique.

If you drop weight and "smash" the elbow and there's a twisting of the forearm/wrist, or more properly, a radical dislocation it doesn't seem to me to be a "wakigatame".

If you're just holding and controlling the opponent with off-balance and the leverage on the elbow without a twisting effect on the forearm/wrist, it doesn't seem like "hiji shime".

Anyway, that's how I see the difference.

dakotajudo
5th September 2001, 12:34
Originally posted by Chuck Clark
Just my 2 yen worth here...

The difference between these two techniques is contained in the two names as far as I can tell. One is a holding technique and the other is a wringing technique.


That works for me - I see hiji shime as a variation on kote-mawashi (a wringing technique), while waki-gatame is a straight elbow lock (ude-hishigi).

dainippon99
5th September 2001, 21:06
it also appears to me that hiji shime is a variation on kote mawashi, and has a grip that corresponds with the technique, while wakigatame uses a gyakutedori (reverse grip) and the wrist is gripped (controlled, chuck?) much in the same fashion as a reversed sword.

rupert
6th September 2001, 01:13
Waki-gatame is just that. Waki-gatame. Some people call it something else. Many confuse it with another lock, ude-hishige / ude-gatame (or whatever you want to call it). The difference is simple. With waki-gatame, uke's arm is held under your armpit (waki) and his elbow bends horizontally. Vertical pressure over the elbow gives a nikkyo type pain. The elbow pressure is applied sideways and down, relative to uke's elbow. You don't have to press uke down to the floor, and can lock it tight from a standing position if you like.
The other one - I call it ude-gatame, looks petty similar in form to an observer but uke's elbow is turned a further 90 degrees forwards (relative to you) so the their arm bends vertically (if you were to allow it to). Pressure is applied downwards on the elbow, forcing uke down. A much simpler technique to perform, but not as powerful as waki-gatame, in my opinion.
Rupert Atkinson



Originally posted by Howard Kaplan
Hi,

Is it true to say that Hiji Shime (perhaps of Yonshinkan Aikido) is in essence Waki Gatame (perhaps of Tomiki or Judo) ? (Or vice versa)

Any thoughts ?

dakotajudo
6th September 2001, 01:44
Originally posted by rupert
Waki-gatame is just that. Waki-gatame. Some people call it something else. Many confuse it with another lock, ude-hishige / ude-gatame (or whatever you want to call it).



All judo armlocks that apply pressure against the olecranon (the end of the ulna that hits the humerus when you straighten the arm, more simply the point of your elbow) are properly called ude hishigi * gatame, to distinguish these locks from osaekomi (such as kamishiho gatame). Ude hishigi refers to an arm crush or arm dislocation.

Ude hishigi ude gatame is a armlock where you put uke's hand against your shoulder, thumb side toward yourself, and pull his elbow into your body. In ude hishigi waki gatame, tuck his upper arm under your elbow and lift his arm up, holding his forearm at either side of the wrist (or some variation on this).

The consensus seems to be that hiji shime involves primarily a kote mawashi with the elbow controlled in the armpit.

Does this sound correct?

rupert
6th September 2001, 09:06
Sounds like what I have in mind, although the kote-mawashi is optional, to be used if uke tries to escape by bending his arm. The lock itself, what I call waki-gatame, is against the elbow, albeit sideways, like a hinge on a door that opens horizontally.


Originally posted by dakotajudo


All judo armlocks.....

The consensus seems to be that hiji shime involves primarily a kote mawashi with the elbow controlled in the armpit.

Does this sound correct?