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kenshin
3rd September 2001, 10:48
I'm in charge of naming moves for a certain arcade fighting game. One of the characters uses some Aikido. I was told to no Japanese names for the arcade version. Is there an English name for shiho nage?

Thanks in advance

kenshin
3rd September 2001, 10:52
Sorry, made a mistake. I was told no Japanese names for the foreign(non-japanese) versions.

Jens
3rd September 2001, 13:12
"Four-side throw" or "Four-directions throw" are the only translations I've heard. They don't sound very cool, though... Maybe we can come up with something else. "Sword-cut throw"? Hmm...difficult. Chinese arts have much more colorful names for their techniques, I have to give them that.

I know this didn't help...

Jens Nasstrom

Mike Collins
3rd September 2001, 18:25
How about "Swordsman cuts the wind"?

Sorry, I couldn't help that one.

Kind of a smelly name, huh?

dakotajudo
3rd September 2001, 20:59
Shiho in judo, as in shiho-gatame, is generally taken mean into 'four-corner', and that's what I typically use with shihonage (but that may because my judo has corrupted my aikido).

I've also heard shihonage called the "Twenty-year" throw, because it supposedly takes that long to master.

INFINOO
4th September 2001, 00:55
I know the wrestling crowd calls Shio-nage a figure four arm bar or just a "figure four." I have heard it refered to as " an elbow lock". In western wrestling they also call a leg lock a figure four. Which is kind of like shio-nage only with the leg and the ankle. Very painfull, and almost impossible to get out of when the hold is locked in. Hope this helps.

Gregory Rogalsky
Director of Rogalsky Combatives International

dakotajudo
4th September 2001, 01:16
Originally posted by INFINOO
I know the wrestling crowd calls Shio-nage a figure four arm bar or just a "figure four." I have heard it refered to as " an elbow lock". In western wrestling they also call a leg lock a figure four. Which is kind of like shio-nage only with the leg and the ankle. Very painfull, and almost impossible to get out of when the hold is locked in. Hope this helps.

Gregory Rogalsky
Director of Rogalsky Combatives International

Actually, that's ude-garami (or ashi-garami) in judo.

Shihonage refers more to the tenkan body movement, which as a side effect brings uke's wrist to his shoulder. You can take an ude-garami from this, but ude-garami is not primary focus of shihonage.

Shihonage can be taken to mean that you can throw uke in any direction (four corners).

I believe Tomiki called the shihonage throw tenkan kote gaeshi.

Wrestler's use the term "figure four" to describe the position of the limbs;
one leg straight and the other bent with the ankle in the back the straight knee looks like an arabic four. The Japanese use the term 'sankaku" or triangle (san = three) to refer to the same leg technique.

kenshin
4th September 2001, 02:39
Appreciate the suggestions guys, many thanks for you help!
:)

INFINOO
4th September 2001, 04:24
dakotajudo: Thanks for the clarification. Its funny because we do a shio-nage variation with no turn , no step and the guys arm ends up being broken at the elbow pointed at the ground. In that instance his hand is know where near his shoulder. Is that Ude-grami or shi nage? Because we just call it a shio-nage variation. We have a version of shio-nage with Atemi Irimi and tenkan as we wipe are brow with are forearm as we twist and pull uke off balence, and in that instance, Uke's hand does end up touching the shoulder before going down. In that version Uke walks away pretty much in tack unless you slam his head on the floor as he is cut down in one of four direction. As far as the wrestling move I think we are talking about a differnt tech. In the figure four Im talking about the foot is grabbed on the outside of the foot near the pinky toe and my other arm is snaked around his leg and my hand "Grabs" my wrist as torque is applied and his ankle goes "snap". Oh thats to far, I mean he taps and I let him go. We call that Shio-nage on the leg. I guess you can call it what ever you want. It hurts just thinking about it. Oh well , Shio-nage a rose by any other name.

Gregory Rogalsky
Director of Rogalsky Combatives International

dakotajudo
4th September 2001, 05:17
Originally posted by INFINOO
dakotajudo: Thanks for the clarification. Its funny because we do a shio-nage variation with no turn , no step and the guys arm ends up being broken at the elbow pointed at the ground. In that instance his hand is know where near his shoulder. Is that Ude-grami or shi nage?


Without seeing the technique, with no turn I'd call it ude-garami. I believe the Bujinkan people call it oni-kudaki.

The shiho name comes from the idea that your could stop your turn at any time and project uke in any of the four directions.

Gaku Homma, in his book "The Structure of Aikido" demonstrates a kenjutsu form of shiho nage (called shiho giri - four directions cutting), pp. 84-85.

You start with attackers front and rear. As the attacker you are facing attackes with shomen uchi. You slide to the right, cutting under the first attacker's left armpit as you tenkan underneath your katana, and end up facing the attacker who was previously behind you, cutting down as you finish the turn.

The empty hand shihonage is very similar to this body movement.



We have a version of shio-nage with Atemi Irimi and tenkan as we wipe are brow with are forearm as we twist and pull uke off balence, and in that instance, Uke's hand does end up touching the shoulder before going down.

This sounds like the "classical" shihonage.

Although, to be honest, I was taught to strive to put uke's hand near his shoulder, since to do otherwise would risk a break. Similarly, uke is taught to purposefully bring his hand to his shoulder to avoid the break.

Do this keeping uke's hand about 6-8 inches away and you've got a pretty dangerous technique. I've also seen jujutsu styles that use the grip as an entry to seoi-nage. Ouch!


As far as the wrestling move I think we are talking about a differnt tech. In the figure four Im talking about the foot is grabbed on the outside of the foot near the pinky toe and my other arm is snaked around his leg and my hand "Grabs" my wrist as torque is applied and his ankle goes "snap". Oh thats to far, I mean he taps and I let him go. We call that Shio-nage on the leg.


Yes, we're definitely talking about different techniques. The figure-four I described comes from folk-style wrestling, while the technique you describe is most definitely illegal in amateur wrestling.

Maybe it's NHB? It's not something I've seen in judo (even the non-randori waza), and I can't find anything like it in Gene LeBell's "Pro-wrestling Finishing Holds" (actually a pretty good compendium of illegal joint locks).

Interesting. Do you do this facing toward or away from uke?

INFINOO
4th September 2001, 06:53
Dakotajudo: I will do my best to discribe how to get there :Uke attempts a right side kick to the left rib cage of nage. Nage enters straight in and scoops under the leg with the left arm at the same time palm strikes the face of uke. At this point ukes leg is trapped in the crook of your bicept. Sometimes you trap it above the knee sometimes below, no matter. Your not lifting its just sort of resting there. Anyway , because uke just took one in the face and you should still be going forward, he is going backwards and down. On the way down he is encouraged to twist so that he lands face first. This is done by striking slightly left to right with the palm on the right side of nose, and by twisting slightly left to right with your upper torso.Kind of a Tai-chi strike if you know what I mean. So Uke lands hands and face first with you behind him.You can bend at the wasit(Bad kness) drop to one knee(good knees) with his leg still in the crook of your arm. With ukes knee at about 90 degree's Only now his big toe will be facing toward you instead of to the side like when he tried to kick you in the rib. . Without delay(rigt away) grab his foot with your right hand along the outside near the front half of the foot , snake your left arm untill you can grab your own forarm. The right hand twist uke's foot to the left and the left arm on your right forarm assist in applying presure down at a 45 degree's. The torque is very simular to Sankajo, at least to me. At this point take great care because as my doctor friend tells me "the joints are not designed to twist like that". At the end of the tech your arms should be in the same postion as a rear naked choke .You know if you have gone to far because you will hear and feel a snap(ankle) followed by a pop(knee) then crunchy sounds(tendons,ligaments).If that happens uke will be walking with a limp for the rest of his life if he can walk at all. There are variations but my hands are getting sore from typing to much. Poor me. Let me know if you can get it to work. Oh and by the way if there is no name for this tech than you can go ahead and name it after me. :D

Gregory Rogalsky
Director Of Rogalsky Combatives International

MarkF
4th September 2001, 11:13
I always thought there were five throwing directions: front, back, side to side and "where you are."

Mark

Jack B
5th September 2001, 22:39
Tenkai kote gaeshi is a non-poetic description of shiho-nage (although it does not imply turning under the coil, while "shihonage" does). Also you can throw shihonage with forward ukemi, in which case some people call it tenkai kotegaeshi. So it may not be the identical throw for some. However the literal translation would be "reverse forearm turn".

Jack Bieler

Jack B
5th September 2001, 22:51
Mark, there are only two off-balances: down the line of the feet, and between the feet. Everything else is combinations and I feel another thread coming on.

Jack Bieler

rupert
6th September 2001, 01:03
Shi-ho literally means four directions, but what it really means is - all directions, or, any direction, like when we say - he's travelled to the four corners ofthe world. So with this throw you can throw someone anywhere.
Rupert Atkinson, South Korea


Originally posted by kenshin
I'm in charge of naming moves for a certain arcade fighting game. One of the characters uses some Aikido. I was told to no Japanese names for the arcade version. Is there an English name for shiho nage?

Thanks in advance