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View Full Version : 1/2 + 1/2 = 1, But 1/4 + 1/4 Does Not Equal 1/2?



Bob Steinkraus
6th September 2001, 21:52
Forgive me if I begin to display my ignorance.

I quit competing shortly after the IJF added yuko and koka to the official scores. The two events are not necessarily connected; I didn't have the time anymore (doesn't earning a living interfere with your hobbies? Darn!).

However, it was explained to me that the original score of ippon was based on the idea of throwing uke hard enough that, if it were a hard surface and he didn't know how to take a fall, that he would be knocked out and/or injured. Thus, like a an armlock, a total victory. Fine.

Waza-ari (I am told this is Japanese for "there was a technique") was half of that. If you could throw someone twice for waza-ari, he would be done with the fight. Also fine.

Then along comes yuko. Almost waza-ari, but it does not add up to waza-ari no matter how many times you score it, and koka, which also doesn't add up to yuko, no matter what. ("Final score - aka, 226 yukos and 17 kokas. Shiro - one waza-ari. Shiro no kachi - yusei-gachi!")

Why does this make sense? Doesn't throwing someone four times for yuko show the same kind of technical dominance as throwing him for ippon once?

I realize this rarely reaches the extremes of my examples. It usually works out that if you can throw him for yuko or koka more than two or three times, you wind up scoring ippon over him sooner or later, so it doesn't really matter. But I always thought that the scoring system didn't make sense.

My alternative would be as follows:

- Ippon is 12 points.
- Waza-ari is 7 points.
- Yuko is 3 points.
- Koka is 1 point.
- You score 1 point for each three seconds that you hold someone in osaekomi.


Twelve points is a fall, and ends a match. Two waza-aris still add up to one ippon, but you have to score a large number of lesser times to cancel out one more nearly correct throw, but ippon always ends a match.

I would even like to see scores awarded for things other than a throw/armlock/choke/pin, like a rear mount, or other combat realistic situations that you can get uke into. Rear mounts, from my viewing of UFC and other NHB matches, is a pretty good indicator (though not a guarantee) of who is winning a match. Thus I would award a rear mount 4 points.

What do the rest of you think about this? I haven't been part of a discussion on the topic, at least not since they changed osaekomi ippon from thirty to twenty five seconds.

I can hear the traditionalists gasping with horror from here, but I would really like to hear your thoughts on the matter. Pretend you could get it past the IJF instead of all these nitpicky rules about how you can grip and for how long, and how many seconds you can spend in ne-waza before they stand you back up.

What do you think?

rsamurai2
7th September 2001, 00:37
. Bob,
I would go for something like that. or even rules closer to wrestling, sambo or bjj/gjj. Giving points for reversals or escapes. Or even say, 2 points for a throw i point for a wrestling take down (morote gari) or wins by submission only. Throw uke down and continue with a choke or arm lock. I think this would appeal to the masses more. Under current ijf rules judo has very little to do with fighting and resembles something closer to Indian wrestling.

Now watch what happens to me. The flaming has begun

Don Cunningham
7th September 2001, 07:22
The concept of ippon being a full point, waza-ari being a half point, yuko being a quarter point is a Western explanation for mistranslated Japanese. Ippon does mean "one" but in this context that "one" refers to one single complete fully executed throw (or score with hold down, submission, etc.). You've got the waza-ari fairly well in context in that it refers to a good technique, just missing one element to be a complete ippon. Koka literally refers to a minor technique. Yuko is similar in that it is a bit more of a technique. When you consider it this way, multiple koka scores not equaling a yuko, and multiple yuko not equaling a waza-ari, then it makes more sense. Yet many judoka who don't understand Japanese explain it with the point or fractional point analogy that leads to this kind of confusion.

MarkF
7th September 2001, 12:28
Don said pretty much what I had in mind, but Ippon is a symbolic combative response in a "shi-ni-ai" as it was first called. It is what would win a battle, a combative one, but it fit the times, as there were no true battles or war anymore.

IOW, it took the place of what most jujutsu schools were doing, hurting others for no reason other than to be sure he was "worthy" to join the school. Dojo challenges were out of hand, so it became "next to death" instead.
*********

So waza-ari awasate Ippon is fourteen points?

Even though it makes more sense, it isn't necessarily a good thing. The Yuko was actually brought in first by the Kodokan in its shiai, and the IJF went a step further. Kodokan shiai is a bit different in many other ways than it is with the IJF and the NGBs.

Even in the fifties, the judo was said to have "never been the same."

Oh, and points for takedowns or controlling uke while he is facing down on the mat? That is taken into consideration if the match ends in a point draw, and the ref can't end it. It goes to judges who make the decision based on who was more aggressive to who was more succesful in counter technique.

We still play most shiai here as it was in the sixties. The only thing which was changed was that time limits were in place as there were none in the fifties and earlier, but there are no yuko or koka, it is a win, lose or draw in those without line judges (everyone in the state has to show up to have enough line judges), and with those which do have line judges, the referee changes a split decision. Control of the match, with one being face down more often than the other does count in deciding matches that way.

But the lesson is that the IJF isn't judo, the Kodokan is judo. The IJF is the political arm and one has nothing to do with the other, or so it should be. The rules are those of the local/county/state/territory. Nothing is written in stone.

(I got out well before the newer rules were in place, I think fighting my last in almost twenty years ago.. I couldn't keep up anymore, I wasn't healing from past injuries in the last shiai, and it just wasn't good for my health anymore. Twenty years or so of that is about the length most can take, but I take my hat off to Vince Tamura. He was Master's champion for seventeen years and quite competition because there wasn't any).

Mark

MarkF
7th September 2001, 12:30
This is a good thread, and it could give some something to think on.

efb8th
7th September 2001, 14:24
Hi, Guys,

Once again, Mark knows all but one thing, so I get to toss in my dart. The concept of yuko and koka were not new when they were introduced, but their use as a posted score was. Their ancestors were Wazari Nichiki Waza (near technique) and Kinsa (minor technical advantage). They were not scores, but referees notes, in case a judgement was needed. Their only use was to keep track of the progress of the match, and they were not announced, only kept in the referee's mind.

Regards,

rsamurai2
8th September 2001, 20:22
well i guess i learned something new today.

MarkF
9th September 2001, 10:09
Ed probably mentioned the single, prime reason for the move to blue dogi (right after looking good on TV), to actually give scores to someone, but sometimes it was hard to add up who actually won and probably why the scores are now announced and also gave me the names for them (anyone remember shiai were even waza-ari didn't win a match?).

Counting attempts at nage waza just never made much sense, especially when uke landed right on top of tori, with the opportunity to score on the ground.

It was probably not thought of at the time, but the change to different color dogi lowered the bad calls by refs by as much as forty per cent (if you believe their own statistics) and why the Japanese judge (just using it as an example) would score a yuko, waza-ari for his side while another judge from the other player's country scored ippon, for waza-ari for his/hers.

That's just politics and we know that never is an issue in international play.:nono:

Mark

The best shiai is when theysimply give a trophy or some other award to third place and there are three players in that division.

Ben Reinhardt
10th September 2001, 02:59
Koka and yuko are formalizatins of kinsa, or "advantages" that referees used to have to keep track of in their head in case a hantei was called for (tied match, no wazari or ippon, or, tied at wazari). So referees USED to have to keep track of koka and yuko type scores in their heads. And competitors knew that too, back in the old days.

As a competitor, I'm glad of the koka and yuko scores. I'd rather have them up on the board than in the referees head. As a referee, I'm glad I don't have to remember them all. We still have to remember other kinsa. Ippon Kinsa, waza ari kinsa, yuko kinsa, etc,. down to a gnat's ass.

Ironically, by adding points for positional dominance in ne waza, such as they do in wrestling, you are just opening the door for more of the highly lamented "Koka Judo". Now guys will go for the minor scores in Judo. Just look at Sport BJJ, and how few matches end in submission between evenly matched players !

Adding more point scoring would just muddy the waters and make it more complicated and hard to follow, gentlemen. If you think refereeing is bad now, just make more rules and see what happens.

How about make it best two out of three ippons ? That might open up the game a bit. If you knew that you could get thrown for ippon and not instantly lose, maybe that would cause a bit more aggression ? Single submission would still win, though, and a single pin would win. That might rev up the ne waza.

Regarding not enough time in ne waza: If you make progress, you get the time. If you want to lay there and think, you won't get the time. Practice your ne waza until it is superion, then you won't have so many problems with the time.

Ben Reinhardt

rsamurai2
10th September 2001, 04:18
Ben,
That would be an excellent idea. I believe that would make judo more exciting to play and watch. However, I would do away with the grips, negative judo and pins. Even today, i refuse to win by a pin. In my training and in my thoughts a pin is no good. You eventually have to let him up. Throw him down or submit him would be more combat or at least more "real" with respect to fighting. Only a throw or submission, and i never turtle or give my back to my opponent. I go to the guard as a defense to anything.

efb8th
10th September 2001, 06:02
Hi, Richard.

You say that newaza is unrealistic, and to an extent, I agree with you. Most osae waza especially are not useful in a combat situation any more than most nage waza are when watered down by the sporting venue. But aren't you also learning practical fighting applications? The simple kesa gatame, when altered very slightly is a rib-breaker. Shiho gatame is a very effective smothering hold. The choke and armlock combinations and strikes mixed in are all a part of our arts, just as sure as an elbow strike to the temple follows sotomakikomi. We don't practice these attacks full out because they are dangerous and even life threatening. But when Ben Campbell saw a capitol police officer attacked on the way to work, he didn't hesitate to apply a little street waza to right the situation. You are a judo player, aren't you? You can switch to reality very handily if you have to. That is because you have been trained to deal with real contention. That's the lesson of shiai; and in the end scoring doesn't make a hill of beans if you don't learn it.

Regards,

efb8th
10th September 2001, 06:07
Hi again, Richard.

I'm a gruff old codger. I meant no disrespect.

Regards,

rsamurai2
10th September 2001, 16:25
Mr. burgess,
Not newaza. Only osaikomi waza. i am quite good on the ground. So far no one can pass my guard. i get most of my submission from this position. my background is combat jujutsu. I do not compete in judo. I dislike the rules and it goes against the way i have train for years. However, I was a semi contact and karate point fighter, as well as fighting in vale tudo type tournaments. As far i to dangerous to practice. My jujutsu class we practice everything at full power. We punch lock and throw. However, we do use control we do not strike the face but the body is open, even on the ground. You fight as you train. I use my techniques on a weekly basis as a personal security professional and part time bouncer. When i do judo randori (which I dislike) i have to fight my natural urges and reflex so i don't get panelized or hurt someone who is not ready for something i might do. I had to decide along time ago. Tournaments or self-defense. I choose self-defense. And i knew you meant no disrespect. Nor neither do i.

efb8th
10th September 2001, 17:54
Richard,

Thanks for filling in the gaps in my knowledge about your training schedule. It sounds like I need not be concerned about your training at all, you are in a splendid program.

Regards,

rsamurai2
10th September 2001, 18:22
mr burgess,
intersting fact you would like to know.

since i see you are a dan zan ryu jujutsuka. a good friend of mines grandfather is August Santana. do you know him?

efb8th
10th September 2001, 23:04
Hi, Richard.

I have seen his name and pictures in lists, but I don't think I ever met him. Mr. Santana was a post-war student of Master Okazaki, I am of the Merlin "Bud" Estes line that became the American Judo and Jujitsu Federation. My Sensei was Ben Patterson.

Regards,

Ben Reinhardt
12th September 2001, 06:58
Originally posted by rsamurai2
Ben,
That would be an excellent idea. I believe that would make judo more exciting to play and watch. However, I would do away with the grips, negative judo and pins. Even today, i refuse to win by a pin. In my training and in my thoughts a pin is no good. You eventually have to let him up. Throw him down or submit him would be more combat or at least more "real" with respect to fighting. Only a throw or submission, and i never turtle or give my back to my opponent. I go to the guard as a defense to anything.

A pin is "Good" in the fact that it teaches you how to control a person. If you have no control, you cannot apply, or it is very difficult to apply, a submission.

Judo teaches things in a logical manner. First, students learn osae waza to learn how to control an opponent on the ground. Then, they learn how to apply submissions from the opponents escape attempts. Thus one has the full range of options in a confrontration. One can control or one can apply incrementally larger degrees of force. These are principles, which is what Judo is all about.

Face up pinning is a situation one may encounter in a fight. An active opponent won't willingly give up their back. You have to know how to deal with that situation.

Face up pinning (as opponed to face down, as might be more applicible in combat and police work) is necessary. What is missing from the sportive aspect of Judo is face down pinning. Which usually requires some sort of joint lock to be effective. Wrist/shoulder/elbow locks work well. But in randori waza, Kano Sensei decided that wrist and shoulder locks were to damaging. Not good for physical education ! The more dangerous locks remained in the goshin jutsu portion of Judo (just look at the Goshin Jutsu techniques for examples...uke is pinned/controled face down).

What you see is the dominant sportive aspect of Judo. Face up pinning makes sense in that context. After all, the object is to have a contest in a relatively safe manner in order to test your understanding of the principles of Judo. Personally, I don't want anyone doing the Goshin Jutsu techniques to me in an uncontrolled, adrenalized situation (shiai). They are too devastating.

Face up pinning teaches important principles of katame waza. That's why Kano Sensei included them.

Ben Reinhardt

dakotajudo
12th September 2001, 22:11
Originally posted by Ben Reinhardt

Judo teaches things in a logical manner. First, students learn osae waza to learn how to control an opponent on the ground. Then, they learn how to apply submissions from the opponents escape attempts. Thus one has the full range of options in a confrontration. One can control or one can apply incrementally larger degrees of force. These are principles, which is what Judo is all about.


This is the same thing I've been teaching. Good osae skills lead to good newaza.

If you study the kime-no-kata you'll notice several finishing strikes leading from osae-komi and there are a lot of shime- and kansetsu waza that can be easily worked from an osae-komi position. My favorite example is the Parduel-Weit match from UFC II.

Richard, in an earlier post you alluded to combact effectiveness, but you also mention that you get most of your submissions from the guard. How is fighting from your back realistic combat? Even if you get someone to submit, you're still on your back and are less mobile.

In contrast, with good osae waza you can get off the ground quickly (perhaps that's why osae-komi is considered broken in shiai when a leg is entangled), leaving your opponent in an awkward position.

Judo randori is a kind of controlled violence, with the emphasis on control. That's one of the personal development features that distinquishes judo from jujutsu. Control in randori and self defense are not mutually exclusive skills.

On a final note, Ben, many (if not most) of the goshin jutsu techniques are done as part of Tomiki aikido randori and shiai.

rsamurai2
12th September 2001, 23:13
You guys crack me up
. You only think in absolutes. No, i do not fight from the guard in self-defense. In fact, i use newaza to get back on my feet so i do not fight on the ground. Nevertheless, in judo class and jujutsu class I just cannot beat the s&*t out of people. So there is a sporting aspect to it. That is when i use the guard in class. Do i know more ground techniques than most judoka, yes. Because in judo we do everything in preparation for a tournament and certain techniques are not learned because you cannot use them in a shiai. But, for some reason i am in an altercation with a bjj/gjj person or wrestler i am better prepared to go to the ground than most judoka because i practice more techniques than they do. If I slip in spilled beer and fall to the ground, i can submit you from the mount or the ground. oseikomi has its place if you are my drunk brother in law no i don't want to break your arm with a ude garami i can just pin you and talk to you. Kesa gatame is good for sode jime submit. yoko shiho is excellent for ude garami. you folks can practice anyway you want. All i said is i refuse to win by an osaikomi. First, it offers me no challenge. i out muscle everyone in MY dojo. In addition, I try to train as realistically as I can. I do not compete so shiai rules do not apply to me. In my mind when i am training you are the enemy. in randori you attacked my family, in newaza or you threw me to the ground or i slipped. That is my mindset you do what ever you want. I have done both sides of the martial arts. Sport and combat. I prefer combat. If I wanted a sport I would do football or rugby. I thought this was an open forum not a preach to the choir board. Heaven forbid I have a different take on judo or training than you all.

captainkirk
13th September 2001, 05:24
richard,

Why do you even practice judo if it is so useless? Besides the whole point of judo was to allow SAFE application of jujutsu techniques and as a way to grow spiritually (thats why it is called judo not jujutsu). I suggest you dont do anymore judo or you might ruin your combat readiness. Or you could use your unstoppable newaza to win the olympics get promoted to 10th dan and rewrite the gokyo no waza, competition rules and otherwise rid judo of its unrealistic aspects.:D

matthew kirk

rsamurai2
13th September 2001, 13:56
i practice judo to give me more practice with my jujutsu with respect to throwing techniques and newaza. I never claimed to have unstoppable newaza. Since I do not like competition rules, i would never even think about the Olympics. In addition, since I found a judo godan who teaches judo as a martial art my interest in judo as an art has been rekindled. In 3 weeks, he has showed me more than 1and 1/2 of years f sport judo. My contention has never been that judo was useless, just that its competition judo was more like Indian wrestling than a martial art. I originally started judo thinking it was a martial art. I never even imagined all the rules, which hinder judo as a martial art. We lost half of our club because judo was there second martial art and they all got tired of hearing "you can't do that". Judo has many, many self-defense techniques but they are just not taught. Finally, after this new instructor i have been able to convince a couple of people to come back. Judo has many merits. In addition, as for the safe application of jujutsu techniques that is hogwash. If that were the case, there would be no jujutsu because everyone who studied it would be dead or severely injured. The fact that they are not means you can practice jujutsu in a safe manner. Whether its Japanese jujutsu or bjj. i was never injured until i studied judo when an over zealous sandan blew my knee out. Just because I look at judo differently than you all I am an outcast. Because I train with selfdefense or self offenses I am looked down upon. Because I disagree with all the ijf rules I am a bad person. Because I don?t care abut a shiny little trinket my training means nothing. Judo is not growing in the untied states but for some reason bjj is. Maybe we should look inward as to why. And stop attacking each other. A house divided cannot stand.

Ben Reinhardt
13th September 2001, 18:19
Originally posted by rsamurai2
[i was never injured until i studied judo when an over zealous sandan blew my knee out. Just because I look at judo differently than you all I am an outcast. Because I train with selfdefense or self offenses I am looked down upon. Because I disagree with all the ijf rules I am a bad person. Because I don?t care abut a shiny little trinket my training means nothing. Judo is not growing in the untied states but for some reason bjj is. Maybe we should look inward as to why. And stop attacking each other. A house divided cannot stand. [/B]

Richard,

Please get over your persecution complex. You have some good observations about sport vs. complete Judo. You are not an outcast, nobody hates you. People may disagree with, and may correct you when you say things about Judo that are innacccurate, but I don't think anyone is looking to string you up.

I'm glad you found someone who teaches a type of Judo compatible with your interests.

BJJ has it's sport aspect as well. It's grown is mostly attributible to Rorion Gracie's marketing campaign, which was brilliant if not a bit dishonest and not in the budo spirit.

Ben Reinhardt

Ben Reinhardt
13th September 2001, 18:26
Originally posted by rsamurai2
All i said is i refuse to win by an osaikomi. First, it offers me no challenge. i out muscle everyone in MY dojo.

+++++++++++++
Sounds like you need to work on your technique a bit more rather than outmuscle people. Or go to dojo where there are people who can challenge you at ne waza. Never know when you will slip in beer at work with a stronger guy on top of you.
+++++++++++++++++++

In addition, I try to train as realistically as I can. I do not compete so shiai rules do not apply to me. In my mind when i am training you are the enemy. in randori you attacked my family, in newaza or you threw me to the ground or i slipped. That is my mindset you do what ever you want.

++++++++
If this is your attitude in Judo practice, then I have to say you just don't get what Judo is all about. Kano specifically replaced the word for enemy with uke for this very reason. Falling to the groundor slipping, no problem. If you are talking about JJ practice, then I think I'll stay away from that sort of thing. I don't need that to beat you in a fight or in randori or shiai. Personally, I don't want to train with someone with that attitude on the mat.
++++++++++++++++++

I have done both sides of the martial arts. Sport and combat. I prefer combat. If I wanted a sport I would do football or rugby. I thought this was an open forum not a preach to the choir board. Heaven forbid I have a different take on judo or training than you all.

+++++++++++
Hey, you are welcome to have a different take on Judo training. If I or others disagree or correct you, try not to think of us as your enemy or that we killed your mother !
+++++++++
Ben Reinhardt

dakotajudo
13th September 2001, 23:27
Originally posted by rsamurai2
Just because I look at judo differently than you all I am an outcast. Because I train with selfdefense or self offenses I am looked down upon. Because I disagree with all the ijf rules I am a bad person. Because I don?t care abut a shiny little trinket my training means nothing. Judo is not growing in the untied states but for some reason bjj is. Maybe we should look inward as to why. And stop attacking each other. A house divided cannot stand.

You set yourself up to be an outcast because you've come here with the attitude that judo's going to hell in a handbasket, and the only way to change it is to make judo more like jujutsu. Just in this thread, you've managed to denigrate large parts of the judo syllabus - randori, shiai and osaekomi. It makes me think you fail to understand the basic tenets of judo.

If you don't want the house divided, stop being so critical of IJF judo. You want people to respect your choices for training, but you don't seem to accept the choices of others.

If you want room for yourself in the judo family, make room for those who enjoy the sporting aspects of judo.

rsamurai2
14th September 2001, 00:14
Peter,

I never told anybody how to train. I said how i train. What i do how i look at things? I never said never do sport, but learn everything about judo. Just do not forget about the katas, the self-defense and all those illegal techniques. You can learn everything judo has to offer and before a shiai train just that way. After the shiai go back to the judo as a martial art. I never said judo was useless, only that many of its more effective techniques are not being taught. If you want to win by an osaikomi than do it. I can but i try to train as if it were a real fight. Martial arts were never meant to be a sport. sportING yes. Every one of them has a sportING aspect to them. ijf has widdeled more and more of judo effective fighting aspects away. This would not be so bad if sensei's still taught the techniques but explained they can no longer be used in a tournament. However, if it has been made illegal then that to is no longer taught. Speak to someone who did judo in the 50"s ask how they trained and what techniques were taught. Then ask them how many instructors they know still teach all of them. I think you would be surprised that many of those techniques are no longer taught. Thus the watering down of judo. Why are these techniques no longer taught? they are not allowed in a shiai. thus my point. The original thread i started way back when i joined ebudo had to do with keeping judo alive. People either do not want to take judo because they believe bjj/gjj is more effective, or they only view judo as a sport with no real effectiveness. We both know there is nothing farther from the truth. Therefore, what do we do to try to recruit? They add more rules to try to make it more exciting. Tell me in your experience when have you know anything made better by adding more rules. My contention has always been loosening up the rules, be a cross between bjj/gjj (which is really more what judo was at the turn of the centaury) and what we have for judo now. In my club, many beginning students have left because they thought judo was more like bjj and became disillusioned when they had to contend with ALL the rules. Look how many judoka have taken up bjj. If they were getting all the training and techniques they would never have started cross training. Again, you can train anyway you want, but read the above posts. I mentioned i train with a different mindset and wanting to win a particular way (which is more difficult and requires more skill) and i am hammered.

Don Cunningham
14th September 2001, 00:25
Eliminating the rules is a two-edged sword. Remember that if the rules are thrown out, your judo opponent also has the right to do many of the things you claim make judo unrealistic. You might find that what you think is effective against a judoka may not be so when they are also released from the rules.

The judo rules you are so critical of are in place mostly for the safety of both judoka in a match. If you want to train in more realistic methods, then I suggest you join a street gang or something where there are plenty of opportunities for that kind of fighting. Otherwise, I pity your training partner for being subjected to such brutality in the name of training.

It's like complaining that fencers don't use sharpened swords when practicing so fencing is not realistic. Or should kendoka using razor sharp katana instead of shinai? Or what about boxers using gloves, being prohibited from hitting below the belt, or (at least most of them) from biting one another's ears? Does that make boxing unrealistic? Are those who practice it then not really effective?

The truth is that very few of us will ever be in a street fight. Why are you so concerned about it? As you mentioned that you are a bouncer and security person, wouldn't your employers prefer that you controlled the situation, maybe even with well-chosen words and swift preventitive action instead of with fists and grappling skills? It seems like that kind of stuff would start affecting their profitability in a very negative manner.

For a person with such an obvious chip on their shoulder, you've picked a very strange line of work. I would think that someone more secure in themselves and with a calmer demeanor would be much more effective. I would certainly prefer to have someone who didn't react so negatively to comments as my security person than one who is always looking for a fight.

rsamurai2
14th September 2001, 00:47
don, why do you have to turn this ugly.

i can train with submission and not hurt you. sport jujutsu, bjj and gjj do it all the time. why do you have to think that if you loosen some of the rules you have to do away with all of the rules. just loosen some of them. i have never, repeat never hurt anyone in training. that is what control is all about. that is what seperates us from your so called thugs. as far as hurting someone in my work, i have been able to control many more confrontations with words than actual fights. but many times the fights are already going on when i get there and i have to break them up. we can not punch anybody in the face because of liability. but i know lots of wrist,shoulder and elbow locks to escort people out


Eliminating the rules is a two-edged sword. Remember that if the rules are thrown out, your judo opponent also has the right to do many of the things you claim make judo unrealistic. You might find that what you think is effective against a judoka may not be so when they are also released from the rules.

this sure would make it more exciting to watch. remember bjj, all though i don't practice it or even advocating it, they have many more techniques they do in contest yet they don't seem to get hurt. so your safty issue is hogwash.




It's like complaining that fencers don't use sharpened swords when practicing so fencing is not realistic. Or should kendoka using razor sharp katana instead of shinai? Or what about boxers using gloves, being prohibited from hitting below the belt, or (at least most of them) from biting one another's ears? Does that make boxing unrealistic? Are those who practice it then not really effective?

there is a big differece in useing a different technique and picking up a sharpened weapon. you can practice every boxing,kendo or karate technique without becomming dangourus. why can you not understand doing away with some rules don't mean doing away with all rules?

you are the negative person not me. you make personal attacks not me. remember in earler posts i wrote about a type of attitude i found in judo that don't seem to manifest in other arts?

nuff said!

this is my last post on ebudo if this is judo and all they say it espouses than i can see why people are not flocking to dojos to learn this martial art.

.

Ben Reinhardt
18th September 2001, 06:48
Originally posted by dakotajudo



On a final note, Ben, many (if not most) of the goshin jutsu techniques are done as part of Tomiki aikido randori and shiai.

Yes, I know. Tomiki Sensei was one of the people who designed the most recent version of the Kodokan Judo Goshin Jutsu. Makes sense !

I've recently begun to learn the Goshin Jutsu. All I have to say is that they hurt really badly, and you can really screw someone up if you want too with the techniques and most importantly, the principles involved.

Ben Reinhardt

Don Cunningham
18th September 2001, 12:15
richard,

I think you need to grow up. Your immature attitude comes across in nearly every post you make. I'm surprised that anyone would employ a security consultant with such paranoia and feelings of persecution. I don't mean this as a "personal attack," but as an observation. You seem to be always on guard against any assault, so it seems like you're likely to find one, even where one doesn't exist such as in my previous post. That seems like a pretty volatile situation, one just begging for a serious incident.

As for your statement about how you will quit posting here, it seems like you make that one all the time. Is it supposed to concern anyone here? So far all I have seen you post here are juvenile rants about what a tough guy you are. Wow, I am so impressed, I may really miss your insightful comments.

:cry: