No contest

[dirtyvicar]

This was part of someone's sig:

There are no contests in the Art of Peace. A true warrior is invincible because he or she contests with nothing. Defeat means to defeat the mind of contention that we harbor within. - O-Sensei, Morihei Ueshiba.

What I'm trying to understand is, if you're not contesting anything, you're accepting things as they are, correct ? Then where does change come from ? For instance, if some injustice comes to my attention and I contest with nothing, what's my motivation to change it ? Surely as true humans, we shouldn't allow harm to others, if it's in our power to prevent it ?

I'm not trying to contest the quote, just trying to understand it so I can apply it to my life.

Thanks !:confused:

[JimmyCrow]

Mike

You listed this quote by O'Sensei:


There are no contests in the Art of Peace. A true warrior is invincible because he or she contests with nothing. Defeat means to defeat the mind of contention that we harbor within. - O-Sensei, Morihei Ueshiba.



The first sentence: There are no contests in the Art of Peace . This means that in Aikido there is no sport or sparring like in Judo. The art of Peace is a literal English translation of Aikido.

The next sentence: A true warrior is invincible because he or she contests with nothing. My interpretation of this line is that no true warrior would instigate a competition (or fight) because he is a defender. I believe O'sensei meant that it wouldn't be much of a contest if one man did all the attacking and the other man did nothing but defend himself. In Aikido there are no attacking movements, in fact it is my opinion that aiki does not work unless you have the force of uke. You could say if uke does not attack then aiki does not work, but then if uke does not attack, aiki has already worked. It all seems very complicated unless you are a student of Aikido.

The last sentence:Defeat means to defeat the mind of contention that we harbor within. My interpretation here is that only through practice and repetition as well as breathing and meditation can the student of aiki free himself of self doubt and selfishness and then begin to really relax and find himself as well as the Art of Peace.

I believe this quote (in its original context) was a reply by O'sensei when he was asked if Aikido had competition like Judo.

This only my opinion I do not claim to be an expert on this matter. I am only a student on aikido. With luck you will get a very accurate response by a more noted authority like Peter Goldsbury or Stanley Pranin.

Hope this helps in some way:smilejapa

[JimmyCrow]

Mike

I've taken a second look at your post and realized that the question you asked is much deeper than a literal translation of the text.

...if some injustice comes to my attention and I contest with nothing, what's my motivation to change it .

I would say as a warrior for peace you would intervene but not with force. You would do your best to defuse the situation and if you could not do this through peace, then you would defend yourself with the Art of Peace.

Now that looks great on my monitor as I reread it but the truth is if I was intervening in a gunfight with the Art of Peace I may not fair to well.


Surely as true humans, we shouldn't allow harm to others, if it's in our power to prevent it ?

I think as true humans we should not allow harm to our brothers and sisters if it is our power to prevent it. In an extreme example like a gunfight there is just isn't much you can do. If you are a husband and a father of 3 what are you risking by putting yourself in harms way to save someone. I am not saying that one life has more value than another, but if you have the responsibility of a family you could be risking alot by standing up to injustice. At the same time you can not just avert your eyes from injustice because of your responsibility. You simply have to explore other alternatives.

I do not believe O'sensei meant that you should not help others by what is said in this quote. You have to take the quote in the proper context of the question that provoked it.

You will probably get many interpretations of the quote in the post that follow. Take what you want from each of them and apply it to your life.

Good Luck

[dainippon99]

O-sensei did not mean for his art to be and art that people fought with. he meant it to be a vehicle to physical and spiritual well being. thats what makes it aikiDO, and not aikijutsu (not the only thing, but one of many--and not to say that aikijujutsu doesnt have the same goals). the techniques of aikido are actually aikijujutsu. therefore, if an "injustice" arises, an aikidoka has the ability, right (obligation?) to protect every living being if possible.

"If you are a husband and a father of 3 what are you risking by putting yourself in harms way to save someone"

the man who does nothing is just as evil as the man who commits the crime. o-sensei never meant that by "no fighting in aikido", that you should not try to stop injustice, not try to "fight it". one of the main principles in budo is to forget the body, forget the world, and act. its a principle in randori, jiyu waza, actual combat.

[JimmyCrow]

Bobby David wrote.

o-sensei never meant that by "no fighting in aikido", that you should not try to stop injustice, not try to "fight it". one of the main principles in budo is to forget the body, forget the world, and act.

Thank you Bobby. This is what I was trying to convey in my explanation. You have a more eloquent way with words than me. When I wrote...


At the same time you can not just avert your eyes from injustice because of your responsibility. You simply have to explore other alternatives.


that is what I meant.

I do prefer your explanation better.:smilejapa

[dainippon99]

thank you, jimmy. im glad that this discussion is taking place, because i think that its one that needs to be discussed, put simply.

[JimmyCrow]

Bobby

The real shame of this thread is that it is in Budo no Kokoro forum which is infrequently visited by the members of e-Budo. Maybe a few post from the more civil members of this board and that's about it.

If Mike had started this thread in the Members Lounge or Bad Budo it probably would have gotten a lot more attention. I am not saying he should have (as a matter of fact I commend him for not doing so).

Of course if this thread appeared any where but here it probably would get way way off the topic and then become a complete flame war between several members who are holding a grudge from a earlier flame war.

Oh well, at least we got to examine O'sensei's quote. I must say I rather enjoyed it.

All the Best:smilejapa

[yamatodamashii]

The best literal translation of aikido into English is "Way of Blending Energy". "Peace" isn't in there anywhere. I do heartily agree with your final interpretations of Ueshiba's intentions, however!

[Gil Gillespie]

Good thread! Jimmy unfortunately you're right about this forum being so often neglected.

The above posts illustrate very well the higher goals of Ueshiba Morihei as reflected in his aversion to the competitive aspects of budo. Yet he also always insisted that our greatest enemy is our self; that is the greatest battle to be won. We improve this world not by becoming the world's policeman but by honing and refining ourselves, in our context in the crucible of the dojo. And as we progress in the art(s) we pass this on, and the dream is that O-Sensei's message would spread exponentially.

The quote under discussion here also addresses the dualistic fallacy that "I'm in here and you're out there." As O-Sensei's metaphysical interpretations of his role in the universe became more congruent with his budo, and vice versa, he ended by teaching that in destroying our opponent we destroy ourselves.

It goes beyond interdependence. He also said "I am the universe. No one can defeat me. How can you attack the universe?" This was not boasting of the invincible warrior; it was deeply poetic vision of a serious mystic. Those realms may not be intelligible to mere mortals still baffled by shomenuchi ikkyo.

[P Goldsbury]

Here is a more lengthy quotation from Morihei Ueshiba on competition. For those who can read Japanese, the original is on pp. 49 - 51 of Hideo Takahashi's edition of Ueshiba's lectures, published as "Takemusu Aiki". I have used the translation made by Sonoko Tanaka and published in Aikido Journal, #117, pp. 20-21, but have made some alterations to make the sense a little clearer. Even if we ignore O Sensei's rather narrow view of competitive sports, it is clear that he has a lot to say on budo as a certain kind of competition.

"Takemusu aiki is a service (i.e., like a public duty) we offer to protect the worlds in which all Universal activity occurs, that is, the three worlds--Appearance, Subconscious, and Divine--and help them to harmonize with each other and flourish. We call it "takemusu aiki" when we clarify the true meaning of God's works, purify this Great Way and dedicate ourselves to assist the Great Way to become wholesome. This is my firm belief."

"Therefore, the martial arts (budo) of our country are not called sports. The purpose of martial arts is to shape (i.e., construct, build) and perfect the self (i.e., ourselves as human beings). During and under the influence of this process of constructing the self, we have to bring to successful fruition everything we do and, first of all, we, as human beings, must protect the universe (i.e., all nature: the whole of creation)."

"In our country, originally, we did not have such sports as people have in Western countries. For some people are delighted to say that the Japanese martial arts have gained in popularity since they became sports. However, this is a gross misunderstanding that shows they do not really know what the Japanese martial arts really are."

"Sports are games and amusements that do not involve the spirit (tamashii). They are competitions only between physical bodies and not our souls (spirit). "Thus they are competitions merely for the sake of pleasure, having fun. The Japanese martial arts are competitions in how we can express and realise love ('ai', but a different character to the 'ai' in aikido), that unites and protects eveything in harmony and helps this world to flourish."

"The Way that preserves this world is a competition to protect the soul or spirit (reikon) and also the physical world (haku-no-yo, but conceived as itself having a soul). It is a competition to guard completely the Way of birth & growth of all nature, and to cultivate with love the Way of making all things flourish, through the breath of AUM in which the spirt and the physical world are balanced in harmomy."

(AUM is a Buddhist concept meaning everything: 'A' is the sound produced from the open mouth; 'UM' is formed with the closed mouth and by breathing in. Thus everything begins in 'A' and ends in 'UM'.)

"This competition is precisely the same activity as the creation of the world in which we live, engaged in by the Great God through the two deities Izanagi and Izanami (i.e., the two deities who created Japan). It is the Way to daily express thanks to the Great God for His work and this it is also a prayer."

Best regards,

Peter Goldsbury
_____________
P A Goldsbury,
Graduate School of Social Sciences,
Hiroshima University

[dirtyvicar]

Thanks for the responses. I have to read and try to digest the interpretations for a bit.

Trying to unlearn this separation of self from Self is tough work !

[john rey saavedra]

hi everybody,

in this civilized world, no one would shout you "ippon" or "waza ari" if you are attacked on the streets or whatever.

a true value of self-defense can be found not in the tatami, not in the dojo, and not in your sensei but in the realization of yourself.

what is a tatami if you would not try to perform ukemi and have it stepped for unselfish training?

what is a dojo if you would not come with sincerity to be with your co-practitioners and live it up with the formal protocol and etiquette of the art?

what is a sensei if you, as a student, would not empty yourself for humble submission to his instructions?

the key word that you need to embrace of them all is very simple and easy to memorize. it is HEART for... the training on the tatami and inside the dojo, and ... for your sensei's instructions.

in lieu with them all, we can set a dividing line between the aikido or aiki jujutsu and the judo arts. nobody would say to an aikidoka and a judoka, if both are fatally attacked, "ippon" or whatever.

right?

john rey saavedra
kogyokan dojo
cebu, philippines

[Mike Collins]

Okay, maybe this is either an oversimplification, or overcomplication of the quote's meaning, I'm not sure till I write it.

My take on the concept to "contest with nothing" is to not contest directly. That is, if you're held, to directly contest the grab will prove useless, but putting your mind, your attention beyond the grab and extending past the grab, you can be successful in breaking free of being held and move on to lead your partner. If you "curl" your arm against morote dori or ryote mochi, you'll only get stronger eventually (just as if your partner were a dumbell). If, however you think of a jo thrust, and spirally extend your arm, you'll off balance your partrner, and you will not have contended, yet been victorious.

The problem is getting the mind to grasp that there is more than "A" or "B", there are all of these other possibilities. That is the mind of contention, which says "he's holding me, I must lift my hand and throw him" Or anyone of a lot of other contentious thoughts.

So the idea is to not "contest" but not to cease to correct wrong. Just don't charge in with both guns blazing, just in case behind the door there is a tank. Best to understand the problem and find a way to victory that does not require direct conflict. But avoiding direct conflict is not the same as avoiding all friction. Friction gives birth to everything, but not by wearing things completely down. (Ouch, that sounds painful:laugh: )

For me, the real deal is trying to correct the wrong between my ears, that has a way of correcting a lot of the problems in the world (well, my world anyway).

So it's not so much about accepting everything just as it is, as it is about really SEEING everything as it is, and working to make the change that is effective and powerful, yet not clashing and inelegant.

[MarkF]

in lieu with them all, we can set a dividing line between the aikido or aiki jujutsu and the judo arts. nobody would say to an aikidoka and a judoka, if both are fatally attacked, "ippon" or whatever.


No, no one will say "ippon" if attacked, so your point is? I don't think most would have anything to say if thrown hard to the ground, on concrete, or anywhere else, so I do not understand your meaning.

You are speaking of different and distinct surroundings, but in that, every encounter has ma-ai, you need to recognize the area in which you work, and then from there, you follow a rule. All such encounters have rules. You look to escape, you "feel" uke and know your reaction or nonreaction. How do your surroundings, your distance or lack there of "rule" the encounter? Is there a weapon involved? Was the fight agreed on? Is it simply a knife fight, as everyone knows, there are no rules in a knife fight. What is the rule when a technique fails, you have practiced in case this rule of combat is broken, don't you?

Life has rules, thus rules are used to live, to live another day, etc.

I won't allow this to be dragged down to the infinite discussion of shodokan aikido or Kodokan judo you seem to be referring to, so don't be so timid, say what is really on your mind.
******

I've read a lot of quotes, interviews with Ueshiba and the 'ai' he uses is that of love, and it seems anyone who, either translates his interviews, particularly in his last ten years or so of life, must explain what is meant.

In the sixties, my friends and I refered to him as the "oldest hippy," but only in a serious way, as what he said most, confuses us even more today. His words will go through many, many people in the future with the same confusion. This is not a bad thing, rather it gives rise to discussion, with others having distinctly different interpretations.
*****

Many complain of the Bad Budo forum because there is no "Good Budo forum, well, a few have suggested this forum as the good budo forum for a while now, but no one wants to take on the responsability, or perhaps because most budo is good, negating the need for a "good budo" forum.

There are actually many good budo forums, ones such as, say Judo forum, jujutsu forum, koryu general forum, and on and on.

So let's begin right now to make this the "Good Budo" forum. Only posts and thread topics dicussing good budo should be placed here, OK?

Mark