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zach
9th September 2001, 16:01
Questions:

The 'salutation' found at the beginning and end of many Shorin and Goju kata wherein one's hands are pointing upward, palms in, and are turned downward. Does this have any martial or historical significance that is known today? Also, is it present in the Chinese Quan from which some Kata are known to come?Maybe the last question is more specifically about Goju. If it is present, what does it mean to the Chinese Quanfa practitioner? Keep in mind I am speaking of the salution above, as the enclosed-fist one in Wansu etc., seems to have a more easily interpreted meaning. I know it's a useless question really, but i'm kind of curious. Thanks.

-Zach Zinn

gmanry
9th September 2001, 16:26
I have seen this movement interpreted physically as a wrist control trechnique or a lapel strip. This is particularly important at the end of kata where the defeated opponent is brought under control. It could also be used against bear hugs and chokes.

Naihanchi kata has an obvious wrist application using this hand motion.

Of course there are also the explanations that link the hand motion to breathing patterns and centering (believable), or that one is protecting the groin (a little hard to believe).

It is a largely symbolic movement, however, and for true application it has to be adapted. It also serves as a sign that the performer is ready to begin, which helps at testings and in class when instructors are observing.

I am sure there are many other things that I don't know about this motion, but these are the things I have learned and figured out over time. I hope this helps.

12th September 2001, 23:37
My present sensei says that this technique is a reinforced neck strike, and follow-up groin block/foot trap. We perform this movement as a striking tech. This may just be a Matsumura Seito thing, but I don't see why other Shorin or Goju styles should interpret it any differently. Later, hope this helps..
Bryan Seer

Jussi Häkkinen
18th September 2001, 00:40
Well, it's a ritual-like thing and somewhat differs between styles. According to okinawan senseis there is not any combative application for that movement. Of course, everything can be made up (and I've seen my share of them, laughed a lot too) but it doesn't mean that they would be correct ones.

Most realistic answer: Ask your sensei or the leader of your style whether that movement has application in official bunkai. Most often I'd say that it does not have.

I could pretty fast find 5-10 applications that are useful and "wise" for that movement. However, I know that they aren't part of the style I train and that the movement just is a form of "opening" and "closing" the kata. I don't need any other made-up explanations. All I need for my karate is in my style.

I believe that most would have easier and more succesful karate courier when they'd just stick in their styles and do the official applications of the style - or, if the style is not good, switch the style - than if they'd try to find out too much by themselves. Hey, you have style to study and to learn from!

gmanry
18th September 2001, 01:06
So, if you find an application that is not a part of your official style it is hands off? I am not meaning to be flippant. I am just curious, as this sort of thing is completely foreign to me. I was never taught that such and such an application was wrong because it fell outside the scope of my official style.

I was taught that such an application might be unwise given X,Y, and Z circumstance, but it may be appropriate for A, B, and C.

This is fascinating. So, your kata only has certain accepted bunkai, and application beyond those movements is taboo? Again, I may be misunderstanding what you are saying.

18th September 2001, 13:45
Jussi: Just because you know a couple of Okinawan teachers who say that there is no application for this opening movement, doesn't mean that other Okinawan trained instructors learned or didn't learn in the same manner. What style do you practice again? Isn't it Matsubayashi? Uh-huh... I have found that very few movements are just "gestures" in kata. Karate, first and foremost, is fighting, not ceremony and philosophy. That being said hidden technique or "bunkai" although varied, often occurs from salutation to salutation. That's the beauty and one definition of Ti. That's the facts Jack. I guess we can agree to disagree on this one. Have a great week!
Bryan Seer

Jussi Häkkinen
21st September 2001, 01:49
Well, style I train is Shorin-Ryu Seibukan (Sukunaihayashi).

What I'm saying here is that yes, you CAN find useful application to opening movement. You can also teach it (I do too, must admit). Still, it most probably isn't actually a fighting gesture. However, one can find fighting applications to about any movement.

How I personally work (there are several ways to do things, I admit) is that I teach the official application to the movement (so far I have yet to find any movement outside salutational movements that wouldn't have official bunkai). Then I may teach something unofficial, such as application to that "hands together" -part - but I always mention about it.

I agree that it's important to study kata and think about applications. Still, I think that some limit has to be kept. As long as movement and body usage remains even principally same, I'd say that one is on somewhat good track. When movement is changed dramatically (internally or externally), I'd say that we're on wrong trail.

Many styles have official bunkai. I believe that mastering these is most important thing, to keep the style alive and keep own developement going. Some people talk about "multi-level" bunkai or such. I'm not sure whether I can agree or not about the existence of those levels - or what the levels would be.

I agree very much on one thing: Karate, first and foremost is fighting.


I'm very sorry if I have jumped on toes too hard on this issue. I don't wish to insult anyone - if I have insulted, I apologize sincerely.

joe yang
21st September 2001, 03:02
I learned, and teach, that opening movements are rituals, with a greater meaning, beyond combat applications. They are, as in yoga, centering, or cleansing rites, in which one purges oneself of any external tension or thought. This in pursuit of total mental and physical committment to the training at hand.

Doug Daulton
21st September 2001, 03:57
Originally posted by Shorinichi ... Jussi: What style do you practice again? Isn't it Matsubayashi? Uh-huh... Bryan,

:mad: Hey, you pickin' on Matsubayashi-ryu again? Well, knock it off!

Just kidding man! :)


Originally posted by Shorinichi ... I have found that very few movements are just "gestures" in kata. Karate, first and foremost, is fighting, not ceremony and philosophy. That being said hidden technique or "bunkai" although varied, often occurs from salutation to salutation. That's the beauty and one definition of Ti. Interesting. Had not thought of Ti this way. I tend to agree with you.

Regards,

22nd September 2001, 04:22
Sensei Daulton: I'm not picking on Matsubayashi Ryu as I know there are legitimate teachers and practitioners of every style out there. I was just wondering if he was Matsubayashi, because this was the interpretation I was given for that movement when I trained Matsubayashi. I just wanted to make the point that interpretation is based on perception, and perception varies from teacher to teacher.

Actually my Sensei always compliments the Seibukan school of thought and exclaims that it is "very good karate". I don't doubt that this is the truth. You didn't really offend me in any way Jussi, I just wanted to answer your answer to the original question.

I think that Matsubayashi taught correctly relays the essence of Shorin Ryu, and it is one of the best ryuha out there. My Matsubayashi sensei was a very good fighter, period!

We can always agree to disagree, that's what makes discussion fun and memorable. Words are words, and in the end shouldn't be misconstrued as a physical attack. I love this forum, and gain invaluable knowledge here when I have time to read or post. Thanks for the compliment Doug, but I think my definition is still incomplete. Ti is the Ryukyuan perspective on combat, but even that varies amongst practitioners and teachers. Have a great week you all....
Bryan Cyr

kusanku
24th September 2001, 23:34
Hi, all/Good thread, good ideas, good information.Here's a little more.

In Okinawan Kenpo, the first application I ever learned for the beginning hands up hands down position of Naihanchi One, was someone grabs your shirt front withone or both hands and you slap your hands over his, step back or sideways and turn the hands down as you bow forward slightly, and down he goes on his knees with hand trapped.

That was as a white belt, long time ago.The next thing I figured out myself, was that the hands up in so many katas could be seen as a blocking reflex trainer,the hands go up and then down, very quickly.

I too heard that these were mudras as in Yoga, but also thought they might have combat usages. It seems even Chinese teachers differ on this.

That some systems do teach these as combat positions, is undoubted, however.As to matsubayashi, my other main style of karate, the person who taught me said that the position was to enable you to concentrate, like unsheathing the sword of your mind.Again, I noticed that the blocking position was facilitated thereby however, and I was also taught, you come up with your own fighting techniques. Same person however taught a number of techniques that later I found to be in the kata, that were extremely effective.His teachers had been James Wax Sensei and Frank Grant Sensei, the latter I knew personally too, having visited his dojo and had many conversations with him and his yudansha. Fine people all.

Grant Sensei demonstrated many principles of Matsubayashi ryu usage, and was very explicit as to how to actually use it in a self defense situation.Grant Sensei particularly showed me how to use the natural position as at the beginning of kata pinan and Gojushiho for self defense, stating it was 'the most dangerous position' as you could move in any direction with no telegraphing, and also showed the use of steping and angles with body turning to conceal a short range strike from the opponent's sight, even as you struck, which he could really do well.This too is from basic kata, but many may not have the depth of knowledge these men had.

Later, when my Kenpo teacher had been with Taika Oyata for some years, he showed me the combat usage of the hand positions in Naihanchi One, as well as the other moves in it.The hands up hands down can be utilized as a combination interception move, a block or hit to the limbs and a hit simultaneously to a vulnerable zone as the neck, and or a two hand interception/trap entry to as tuite maneuver, or a combination of both.

Also, if on the way up or down you cross the hands, you can catch an oncoming hand in betwen, thus preparing for a lock, break or takedown, or immobilizing the limb and opponent for a strike to a target of choice.ie, kyusho.

Then, going also into the Matsubayashi ryu forms, I found from this key, that the many hand positions therein can also be utilized in similar manner. Though styles are many, karate is one.

We all have, most of us, two arms, two legs, and similar anatomies.Techniques designed to utilize existing circumstances are bound to be similar.It was asked, too-how can other styles/teachers have different applications? Well, I'd say, because there are different ones, and some prefer one over another.Usually, a particular app is taught, imo, as an an example of what can be done, not what always must be done. There are some few exceptions, but usually this is the case.
Sincerely,