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Graham Wild
12th September 2001, 18:56
Hello to all you judoka. I was on a web page the other day and found reference to a technique I had never heard of before. As you can guess it was kawazu gaeshi a yoko sutemi, and the thing that really sparked my interest was the fact that its not allowed in competition or something like that. Well any info would be great, thanks.

MarkF
13th September 2001, 08:33
I believe you mean kawazu gake? I'm not sure whether it is classified a yoko-sutemi or not, but it is a sacrifice throw and isn't allowed in randori or shiai.

I believe the reason is one of "entanglement" of the leg, perhaps the supporting leg, two reasons for it not to be done in randori/shiai. Leg entanglement for nage-waza is not permitted, and reaping or hooking the supporting leg is not permitted.

Those who practice BJJ call it "grapevining" and can use it, I think.

At any rate, it isn't permitted.

Mark

It is similar to ura nage, regarding direction of the sac.

Graham Wild
13th September 2001, 09:43
Yes, sorry I did mean kawazu gake, I have been looking at and studying gaeshi waza for the past few days and must have it on the brain.
"Reaping or hooking the supporting leg is not permitted. "
Could you explain this a bit more?
I study Yoseikan Aikido so I am not familiar with 'rules' and 'restrictions' of judo but I am familiar with most of the judo waza as we study them in Yoseikan. Could you also elaborate on the 'entanglement'? A picture would be helpful, is there one on the web or a book that I might be able to look in at my dojo (they have a supply store with plenty of books) for example is the technique in Kodokan Judo?

tommysella
13th September 2001, 14:22
It was some time since I looked in the book Kodokan Judo, but if I'm not remebering wrong, I belive you can find a piture and description of the technique there...

Tommy

Ben Reinhardt
13th September 2001, 18:11
Originally posted by Graham Wild
Yes, sorry I did mean kawazu gake, I have been looking at and studying gaeshi waza for the past few days and must have it on the brain.
"Reaping or hooking the supporting leg is not permitted. "
Could you explain this a bit more?
I study Yoseikan Aikido so I am not familiar with 'rules' and 'restrictions' of judo but I am familiar with most of the judo waza as we study them in Yoseikan. Could you also elaborate on the 'entanglement'? A picture would be helpful, is there one on the web or a book that I might be able to look in at my dojo (they have a supply store with plenty of books) for example is the technique in Kodokan Judo?

Kawazu Gake is very specific in the Judo rules of competition.

Tori and uke are facing in the same direction, with uke behind tori.
Uke's front is against tori's back, and both are standing.
Tori entwines his lower leg around either of uke's legs.
Entwine: wrap or hook your foot/lower leg from the outside in or the inside out around the lower leg.
Fall or jump to the rear on top of uke. This will either/or : injure his leg/ankle, cause severe damage to internal organs (when you fall on his abdomenwith your butt), or smash the back of your head into the from of his face, and the back of uke's head into the ground/tatami, depending on how hard you fall.

Using the kawazu technique is not illegal (as of now, albeit the latest rule changes from the IJF seem to make it so) to make say, Ouchi Gari, Uchi Mata, etc.

Ben Reinhardt

Graham Wild
13th September 2001, 19:47
Thank you all especially Ben. The description was most helpful, this seams to be the sort of technique we might do, and I can see why some in judoka may wish not to practice it. Given the right sort of rear attack where ukes centre is low (hard to lift and throw ie ippon seoi nage) and he is strangling you (hard to reap normally ie ko uchi gari) it may be a useful technique to have in ones 'arsenal' but once again very hard to practice, maybe just practice setting it up and continue on the ground.
Thanks again and I will get back to you guy soon with some more questions.

MarkF
14th September 2001, 10:42
The particular throw is in the three versions of Kodokan Judo I have, and is explained pretty well.

I have always that the all kawazu techniques as Ben describes to be a throw not practiced in randori. Ouchi-gari isn't quite the same thing, nor is uchimata (although with sukashi, it does come close).

Difference is to be one of the supporting leg (in this throw, both are shown to be supported or planted).

Uchi-mata is supposed to sweep the inner thigh according to the Kodokan, but has changed a lot since the fifties and sixties, and was considered to be a koshi-waza by some (M. Kawaishi).

Things have surely changed but I can't remember any sort of entangled leg throw as described to be permitted during play.

Mark

Graham Wild
14th September 2001, 17:21
So which leg arn't you allowed to 'attack' and why?

MarkF
15th September 2001, 09:22
The 'why' is easy, it's dangerous. Either leg can be "attacked" but entwining the leg, and jumping up and back is what makes it dangerous. There are other throws which aren't allowed either, but are practiced on occasion. Dakiage is one I can think of off the top of my head, and is a koshi-waza.

The prohibition is on doing them in a round of randori. The other is shiai. The throws are still done sometimes, but usually in a slow, deliberate manner. It is simply in another category of practice, as kata is for atemi-waza.

You can ask why until the cows come home, but, as when asked by kids, some aren't satisfied with that.

Mark

dakotajudo
16th September 2001, 03:52
Originally posted by MarkF
The 'why' is easy, it's dangerous. Either leg can be "attacked" but entwining the leg, and jumping up and back is what makes it dangerous. There are other throws which aren't allowed either, but are practiced on occasion. Dakiage is one I can think of off the top of my head, and is a koshi-waza.

<snip>

You can ask why until the cows come home, but, as when asked by kids, some aren't satisfied with that.



Another is kani-basami (scissors or crab throw), and so is using kusabi-dome (wedge block) against the supporting leg to throw uke forward.

Most of these are illegal because of the tendency to lock the knee, without giving uke an oppurtunity to avoid the lock by taking ukemi. For example, tori can sit down and against the knee in kuwazu gake, or lock both knees in kani basami done too low.

In contrast, uke can escape a locked knee from a forward throw such as tai-otoshi with forward ukemi.

MarkF
16th September 2001, 09:32
Kusabi dome! I had been trying to remember the name. Isn't this the defensive posture to harai goshi, uchi mata Anton Geesink came up with?

I think there is a photo of it on this forum. I don't know why it would be illegal as long as the step in is a non-contact maneuver.

Let me see if I can dig it out.

Mark

MarkF
16th September 2001, 09:41
Sorry, it is no longer available, but I think I can find it, either in my files or another website.

Mark

BTW: Ben Holmes, you had posted the photo here, and I can't find it on your web site, at least from doing a search.:smash:

Graham Wild
16th September 2001, 13:44
I understand now and look forward to these photos they sound interesting.
Thanks again.

dakotajudo
16th September 2001, 14:16
Originally posted by MarkF
Kusabi dome! I had been trying to remember the name. Isn't this the defensive posture to harai goshi, uchi mata Anton Geesink came up with?


It's legal if you rotate your blocking leg so that you make contact with your shin. If you make contact with the back of the leg (as in osoto gari) it's illegal.
(Caveat - this is off the top of my head and may not accurately reflect IJF rules)

Peter Siesenbacher discusses this technique with some photo's in "Modern Judo - Techniques of East and West". If I had a scanner I'd post some.

Ben_Holmes
17th September 2001, 04:00
Sorry Mark, I'd taken the photos down... I just scanned back in, and posted Kusabi Dome at my website. To look at it, go to:

www.bestjudo.com/kusabidome.jpg

And I don't believe that Geesink came up with it. He was, however, the first to put it in a book written in English. Syd Hoare in his book "Judo A to Z" (If you don't have it, it's a MUST!!) says that he referenced Kusabi Dome out of Kotani's book (in Japanese).

And, as Geesink remarks that this was used *against* him by Sone at the World Championships, I'd find it difficult to believe that Geesink invented it, and promptly taught it so well that it was sucessfully used against him!!

I have, however, always thought of Geesink when I do or teach this, since it was from his book that *I* first learned of it.

Oh, and here's the picture:
http://www.bestjudo.com/kusabidome.jpg

Oh, and DakotaJudo, to the best of my knowledge, you are absolutely correct regarding what part of the leg can be making contact.

MarkF
17th September 2001, 07:34
Thank you, Ben, that is the picture I "see" when applying it.

Mark

dakotajudo
17th September 2001, 12:46
Originally posted by MarkF
Thank you, Ben, that is the picture I "see" when applying it.

Mark

You pretend you're Anton? I like to be Yamashita. :)

Graham Wild
17th September 2001, 15:57
That is just what I had imagined. So this is a kaeshi waza, but would it also be classified as an ashi waza or does it have no 'classification' because there is no throw involved? Which leads to the next question of which technique would be best to follow up with after performing kusabi dome?
Thanks again.

Ben_Holmes
18th September 2001, 00:37
No, I wouldn't call Kusabi Dome a "Kaeshiwaza", since there's no real "reversal" here. It's merely a very strong defense to Haraigoshi or Uchimata. I'm not sure if there really can be a "followup" technique... The next step after inserting your leg is to pull away your right arm, so your opponent no longer has any pull.

If this were a self-defense situation, you'd just perform a left-sided Ouchi-gari, slamming your opponent straigt forward. If you did it hard enough, you might also injure his left knee.

Ben Reinhardt
18th September 2001, 05:29
Originally posted by Graham Wild
Thank you all especially Ben. The description was most helpful, this seams to be the sort of technique we might do, and I can see why some in judoka may wish not to practice it. Given the right sort of rear attack where ukes centre is low (hard to lift and throw ie ippon seoi nage) and he is strangling you (hard to reap normally ie ko uchi gari) it may be a useful technique to have in ones 'arsenal' but once again very hard to practice, maybe just practice setting it up and continue on the ground.
Thanks again and I will get back to you guy soon with some more questions.

Kawazu Gake as I defined it is a veryt dangerous technique. That is why is is disallowed in randori waza. Personally, I wouldn't let anyone practice it one me, certainly not without a crash pad.

As tori falls backward, he can really do damage to uke. Either by landing with his butt in uke's abdomen, or by a falling type leg lock, or, by smashing the back of tori's head into uke's nose, and then the back of uke's head into the tatami.

As a goshin jutsu, this is an extreme technique as well. Not something you would do playfully to one of your friends who grabs you from behind !

In a nutshell, don't do it. It's too dangerous. And illegal in randori and shiai.

The other kawazu type techniques can be OK. Using kawazu in Ouchi Gari, or Uchi Mata seems to still be OK. It's more of a trapping technique, so uke cannot extract his leg and escape the throw.

Ben Reinhardt

Ben Reinhardt
18th September 2001, 06:06
Originally posted by MarkF
The particular throw is in the three versions of Kodokan Judo I have, and is explained pretty well.

I have always that the all kawazu techniques as Ben describes to be a throw not practiced in randori. Ouchi-gari isn't quite the same thing, nor is uchimata (although with sukashi, it does come close).

Difference is to be one of the supporting leg (in this throw, both are shown to be supported or planted).

Uchi-mata is supposed to sweep the inner thigh according to the Kodokan, but has changed a lot since the fifties and sixties, and was considered to be a koshi-waza by some (M. Kawaishi).

Things have surely changed but I can't remember any sort of entangled leg throw as described to be permitted during play.

Mark

Mark,

Kawazu Gake is a specific technique as I tried to describe in an earlier post, at least as far as the IJF competition rules are concerned.

Kawazu in general is to entwine the leg as described. It is (or at least was) legal up intil the 2000 Olympics. A new "rule" from the IJF states that any kawazy technique is now illegal. The English is very poor though, and we need an official interpretation to be sure.

If you watch the 1999 WC or 2000 Olympics tapes, or either of the 101 Ippons tapes, you will kawazu applied legally in Ouchi Gari and Uchi Mata. I asked specifically about this, and was told that only Kawazu Gake, as I attempted to describe the throw, is illegal.

Ben Reinhardt

Ben Reinhardt
18th September 2001, 06:09
Originally posted by Ben_Holmes
No, I wouldn't call Kusabi Dome a "Kaeshiwaza", since there's no real "reversal" here. It's merely a very strong defense to Haraigoshi or Uchimata. I'm not sure if there really can be a "followup" technique... The next step after inserting your leg is to pull away your right arm, so your opponent no longer has any pull.

If this were a self-defense situation, you'd just perform a left-sided Ouchi-gari, slamming your opponent straigt forward. If you did it hard enough, you might also injure his left knee.

You can plant your foot and push uke forward over it, but you can't reap the supporting leg.

Doing this will make you very unpopular with your fellow judoka, though.

I used Kusabi Dome last week in practice. Works quite well.

Ben Reinhardt

Ben Reinhardt
18th September 2001, 06:13
Originally posted by Ben_Holmes
Sorry Mark, I'd taken the photos down... I just scanned back in, and posted Kusabi Dome at my website. To look at it, go to:

www.bestjudo.com/kusabidome.jpg

And I don't believe that Geesink came up with it. He was, however, the first to put it in a book written in English. Syd Hoare in his book "Judo A to Z" (If you don't have it, it's a MUST!!) says that he referenced Kusabi Dome out of Kotani's book (in Japanese).

And, as Geesink remarks that this was used *against* him by Sone at the World Championships, I'd find it difficult to believe that Geesink invented it, and promptly taught it so well that it was sucessfully used against him!!

I have, however, always thought of Geesink when I do or teach this, since it was from his book that *I* first learned of it.

Oh, and here's the picture:
http://www.bestjudo.com/kusabidome.jpg

Oh, and DakotaJudo, to the best of my knowledge, you are absolutely correct regarding what part of the leg can be making contact.

As long as you don't reap the supporting leg, you can use the back of of your leg. However, a bad ref may call you on it anyway.

You can plant your foot in fron of uke's supporting leg and push him over it. This is not reaping, technically, however, you may get the penalty anyway. Plus, it's guaranteed to piss off your training partner.

Ben Reinhardt