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View Full Version : What the body can take, properly trained



R. L. Anglen
17th September 2001, 00:23
I thought I would post this on a board that is moderated by someone Juko Kai friendly. It might be a little off topic.

I caught the documentary on martial arts, Friday the 14th, on the Discovery Channel which heavily featured Juko Kai and Rod Sacharnoski. We watched it at a friends house. About 8 of us viewed it. We all thought it was very good. The other martial artists who were also featured on the show were no slackers either.

Sherry McGregor (of Juko Kai) did really well. When she stood with her back against the wall so she had to absorb full impact, blindfolded, and took the full contact elbow strike to the sternum from a guy easily twice her size (Kirby Roy) it was a show stopper. On the previous segment featuring other groups, the 300 LB Goju Ryu guy took an elbow strike while sparring from the Asian guy (who might have weighed 150 LBS) and it almost dropped him , and he later said he thought he had cracked his ribs. Here a mobile guy was hit by someone half his size. Comparing that to a woman who weighs perhaps 120-140, taking a strike while stationary, braced against a wall so there is no where for her to "roll with the punch", taking a full out elbow strike from a man who weighs at least 220 LBS - with no injury was amazing. Thats what Rod Sacharnoskis Combat Ki is - simply amazing.

Sherry then took several other full out strikes - the flying side kick to the sternum while she was kneeling and held in place by someone behind her. 4 strikes to the neck and throat simultaneously. And I think 5 or 6 other shots including round house kicks to both side of the rib cage from 2 kickers at the same time. All without any injury.

I remember doing Combat Ki years ago with Rod and Juko Kai. Watching the show made me strangely nostalgic for taking full contact kicks to the testes.

Its amazing what the human body can take when it is properly trained. My friends watching (who are not in Juko kai) were quite amazed at the training - especially the kicks to the groin.

Its no wonder Rod keeps popping up on TV left and right : Ripleys Believe it or Not, You Asked For It, The Discovery Channel. People love him and his demonstrations. No matter what all the hate mongers and back biters have to say, Rod stays ever popular.

R. L. Anglen
17th September 2001, 14:43
Well I have to admit I have a hard time keeping it positive to due the number of people who "misrepresent" things about Juko Kai (such as the school of oriental philosophy - which to my understanding Soke is about to open again, and was only closed temporarily for some restructuring, etc).

I wondered if the average person, who has never done Combat Ki, would realize that she was just simply doing ki relaxation exercises. But I think to anyone who has done combat Ki, it was obvious she was simply off in meditation land.

lgusaas
17th September 2001, 21:15
If anyone believes they can condition themselves to take blows to the groin, they obviously don't want to have children.

Larry Gusaas

R. L. Anglen
18th September 2001, 05:46
By the way Kent. My wife is pregnant with #4. My youngest is SOOOOOO exited. My oldest wants the new one to sleep in his room - he does not know what he is in for. I too am exited, although anxious about having # 4. But if it is twins I will HOPE that a future kick my render me sterile.......LOL. When I think of the literally hundreds of instep kicks, shin kicks and even a few punches to the testes I have taken.....sheesh.

There are a ton of misconceptions people have about Ki. One is that they will "sing soprano". However you and I both know how truly risky it is to let a 275 LB pro football player slug you in the gonads. Some of the misinformed imply it is some easy trick to learn, like Chinese linking rings or pulling a rabbit out of a hat. Of course we will probably never see them demonstrate how easy it is to let a pro football player kick you in the gonads. Others think it is simply easy because the testicles shrink up or pull up inside you, or next to you. These misinformed people do not realize some of the real risks involved - like the idea of shoving someones nose into their brains.

When I was in Kansas City, a cop kicked a guy in between his legs and gave him a bucket handle fracture - broke his pubic bone and one of his sacroiliac joints. The guy was lucky he did not rupture his common iliac artery - he would have been dead in minutes. Forget your balls or prostate, with a pelvis fracture there is the very real risk of death.

I got a real kick out of the guy who cited some study he could not reference of how being kicked in the gonads increases your risk of cancer. I really would like to see that study.

But I find most puzzling is how people do not see combat Ki for what it is - another technique to try and prevent serious harm. They pose; what if someone sneak attacks you while you are washing your car - would it work? Of course the same is true of any martial arts defense - would it work if you are caught completely off gaurd? Then why bother learning any martial art when a sniper could take you down from a qaurter of a mile?

Kent, speaking of ex-snipers, I was glad to see JD is back into the swing of things at Juko kai in one of the recent newsletters. Even a sniper deserves a second shot, eh?

Sorry, I guess some of this is more appropriate for a private e mail.

Don Cunningham
18th September 2001, 06:06
I have watched this video segment several times. It certainly appears like the woman taking the combat ki masters test passed out. Her knees completely buckled and she would have obviously dropped all the way to the floor if the others hadn't caught her under the arms. Even Rod is clearly heard to state that she had passed out.

My question, though, is why was she subjected to another hit without even being first checked by any medical personnel? I realize she states several times that she was alright. When I've seen others pass out due to chokes in judo competitions, however, they also generally respond with such statements as well.

Personally, I think this lack of concern for her condition was extremely irresponsible.

sect_7
20th September 2001, 05:39
I wish people left the assumption that force = being kicked in the gonads. It is simply not so. If you believe that force is neccisary to injure someone I recomend Budo Tiajutsu, or other form of ninpo, kung foo, or other COMBAT art. I could easily have some one break my wrist with less than 5 lbs pressure... sfter all in the art i practice a 70 year old man. simply put, it dont take effor to hurt or get hurt.

...you and I both know how truly risky it is to let a 275 LB pro football player slug you in the gonads. Some of the misinformed imply it is some easy trick to learn...

R. L. Anglen
20th September 2001, 05:43
Kent, what are your views of the purpose of Combat Ki jutsu training?

In terms of a martial art (bujutsu) my understanding is that it is simply another technique to learn to survive and reduce injury. Much like any other martial technique. Ex. we learn a downward block to prevent certain injuries, we learn a breakfall to prevent another type of injury. And we learn Kijutsu for those moments when breakfalls and downward blocks go wrong (as they are wont to do).

I think some are of the faulty impression that all we (Juko Kai) do is Kijutsu ....to the exclusion of learning to block. Which if course is rediculous looking at the members of Juko Kai.

Sherry McGregor (for those only familiar with combat Ki from the Discovery show - she is the lady taking all the incredibly hard blows) , for example, was the National AAU karate champion. And the AAU tournaments are pretty tough - good amount of contact and they allow throws. I think it is rare for karate tournaments to allow throws. I may be wrong it has been almost 20 years since I competed. Last time I competed was in the black belt division of the Ohio Martial Arts Championships in 1983, in which I won the Kata competition and placed 2nd in the sparring. But obviously Sherry McGregor has learned alot more then taking a full contact blow to the throat.

Randy Marvel (who I know was on the Ripleys Believe It Or Not TV show, but I am not sure if he was on the Discovery documentary) won a NHB (no holds barred) event sponsored by Dan "the beast" Severn. Obviously he did not win it by just taking kicks to the jewels.

Although Juko Kai is devoted to non-sport martial arts - and Rod Sacharnoski is not a "sporty", a great many Juko Kai members are top notch martial arts champions- I mean, way beyond the local tournament scene. So obviously, even though Juko Kais direction is away from sports, the members know enough to show themselves favorably when comparing the basic techniques.

So why would National karate champions, and rough and tumble no hold barred fighting champions study Rod Sacharnoski's COmbat Ki? I do think part of it is they are smart enough to know that even if you are the best in the nation, sometimes you miss a block. I know some of the people on other sites on this board do not think so - they believe once you learn a downward block or some Judo throw it will never fail, no need to learn to take a punch - but I think most Juko Kai people understand being hit IS reality. Perhaps because we are non sport we emphasize reality more...?

But another aspect is the favorable effect it has on health. I mentioned elsewhere the pain reducing benefits I had from Combat Ki in regards to my arthritis. People who misunderstand the art and think it is only about taking a kick to the jewels may not understand this - but Ki/Qi meditations have been reported by many to aid in health.

Part of this may be due to the relaxation response. I read a reply by someone on here that they felt Combat Ki was a bad way to train because you would react the way you have been trained. And this person believed that a person trained in Combat Ki has been trained to have a "fight or flight response" and this added exitement/fear would make someone trained in Combat Ki more likely to lose a fight.

I think this person drew a very wrong conclusion, because everyone I know who has studied combat ki experiences the opposite - they feel more peaceful. I know on the Ripleys segment the paramedics on hand, had one of the the Combat Ki people hooked up to an EKG taking a reading of his heart. He had a very peaceful resting heart rate and even when he took the blows his heart did not deviate significantly - showing that he had a relaxation response even when getting hit full out. In other words Combat ki protected the person from having a stresss reaction, because in a stress fight or flight reaction the heart rate speeds up. I doubt many outside of Juko Kai would understand relaxing that completely - maybe the Yogis who can stop their breath and appear dead.

And we know stress is one of the major causes of ill health in this country. Studies have shown that chronically depressed individuals are more likley to suffer strokes, and a stressed individual with a type A personality type is more likely to have a heart attack. So by learning to reduce stress, even in a extremely high stress event like getting kicked in the nuts by a pro football player, is bound to help reduce illness.

This perhaps accounts for Rod Sacharnoski's typical good health. I mean 3 decades ago when he was taking baseball bat strikes to the throat people said he would be dead in a few years. But he is probably one of the very few who trained in the late 1950's who is still active, and tossing guys around like flies. I would not be surprised if he was not still teaching and doing when many of the younger people here who say such negative things about him are dead from heart attacks.

So Kent, in a long winded way I am asking, as my senior in Juko Kai - what do you feel is the real point of a person learning combat Ki..... and secondly, what health benefits to the body do you feel are incurred from such practice. Or do you feel it makes a person a worse fighter who has been fooled through parlor tricks and is likely to get hurt in a fight or no holds barred event , more prone to fight or flight reactions like some have suggested, and someone who cannot perform a downward block?

Henrik Jonsson
20th September 2001, 19:35
Originally posted by R. L. Anglen
In terms of a martial art (bujutsu) my understanding is that it is simply another technique to learn to survive and reduce injury. Much like any other martial technique. Ex. we learn a downward block to prevent certain injuries, we learn a breakfall to prevent another type of injury. And we learn Kijutsu for those moments when breakfalls and downward blocks go wrong (as they are wont to do).


Can I ask how the Kijutsu is practiced? Is it based on
breathing techniques? Combinations of relaxing and
tensing the muscles?

I would love to hear about how the actual practice on
a beginners level is conducted.

I'm really interested to hear more about this, or
find a link to where this kind of information is available.

Thanks to you both!

Don Cunningham
20th September 2001, 20:15
No problem. Feel free to answer my previous question in your own time.

R. L. Anglen
20th September 2001, 20:26
I am not the best one to answer Henrick, however considering I like to talk alot I will try.

There are 2 broad divisions to Kijutsu. A hard and a soft division. The hard division has 6 levels I believe : menkyo chuden, menkyo Joden, Menkyo Okuden, Menkyo Kyoshi, Menkyo Shihan dai, Menkyo Shihan. There is a test at each level - people start taking blows at the Menkyo Okuden level, and it culminates at the blind folded test for shihan. The soft division also has a healing Ki training.

Schools practice on their own and once a year there is a get together some place around the nation, where all Juko kai members have the opportunity to train. I have attended the national seminars and met people from overseas (such as from the UK). The national sessions I have attended begin with several hours of breath exercises, Ki sensitivity drills, and various postures. Then a couple of hours of physical drills combined with the breath visualizations that were learned earlier are done. These exercises include things like the Obi tow that was shown on the Discovery channel. Then those who want to test in hard ki pass through a gauntlet of strikes equal to the level that are testing for. Each level gets a bit more challenging.

I took strikes the very first day, time that I learned any Combat Ki. So within a few hours of beginning I was taking strikes to the throat, body and groin. i can still remember standing in a horse stance in Laramie Wyoming the first time I was going to take a kick to the groin from Mike Hughes (pictured on the Discovery Channel) - I can remember watching his foot rocket at my groin with part of my mind just sure I was going to get that gripping pain in my lower abdomen that buckles your knees. The biggest surprise was feeling it ricochet off my testicles and NOT feeling any cramping pain. I then literally took maybe 50 kicks to the groin in various ways. We also did throat strikes and punches to the sternum.

I did get a mild injury on the punch to the sternum. Danny McConnel was launching a punch at my chest when my previous mental programming took over and I flinched. In fear I lost my mental/physical composure and folded in an effort to back away from the punch as he hit me, and pop - one of my ribs was sprained. I backed off and decided not to do anymore strikes to the chest, and everyone was cool with that. Nobody pressured me to take any more strikes. Nobody there wants a student to get injured - at least that was my experience. The overall goal was to get you to surpass your previous self though.

Many students complete the blind folded Menkyo shihan test and continue to try new things : baseball bat strikes to the throat, being hung fully suspended by their neck, getting choked by steel chained nunchaku, letting a rodeo bull run and hit them full tilt with its horns (this is not a joke), flipping off moving garbage trucks onto asphalt to practice kijutsu breakfalls, being tied by the throat to the bumper of a car and going for a drag, etc. I know it sounds crazy, and perhaps it is - it certainly is a break away from common every day logic, but many Juko kai people think it is fun. They think these stunts up themselves after they get tired of taking every day kicks to te jewels.

R. L. Anglen
20th September 2001, 20:28
Kent I noticed you answered him via private e mail. If my post is innapropriate I will delete it or you can.

Don I believe all of yours have been answered previously, that is why we aren't answering it here. Our answer was not accepted by you before so why should it satisfy you now? So we, I at least, just ignored it.

Don Cunningham
20th September 2001, 21:44
My question, though, is why was she subjected to another hit without even being first checked by any medical personnel? I realize she states several times that she was alright. When I've seen others pass out due to chokes in judo competitions, however, they also generally respond with such statements as well.

Personally, I think this lack of concern for her condition was extremely irresponsible.

I must have missed the answer to this question. However, I am not surprised that you ignored it.

Don Cunningham
21st September 2001, 04:02
Thank you for partially answering my question. I am glad to know there were EMTs and even a MD in attendance. Now why didn't any one, especially one of the EMTs or the doctor, even bother to give her a cursory examination before subjecting her to another strike? I've watched the segment several times, and no one even checked her out. No one asked her what time or day it was, who was the president, or anything which might have indicated her state of consciousness. The only question asked was if she was alright, something she was already indicating with her verbal responses.

That is typical of anyone who has lost consciousness for a short time. They will often claim they are fine and don't need any medical attention. Usually, some questions, such as what is the date, the month, etc., will give an idea of whether there has been any head trauma which is not detectable otherwise. I didn't see or hear anyone who even bothered to do this for her in this case.

I thought you had some medical training, and you should know this basic first aid stuff. Didn't you claim to have been there at that time? Why didn't you personally insist on at least a minimal examination? Were you afraid of offending your "soke" by questioning his judgment during this exam? What about the medical doctor? Why didn't he or she step up and insist on at least a simple exam to determine if serious injury had occurred or not?

Personally, I think this shows a basic disregard for safety and an irresponsible attitude which creates a significant potential for much more serious injuries. This didn't reflect well on the overall philosophy of Juko Kai or its practitioners.

Henrik Jonsson
21st September 2001, 07:03
Originally posted by R. L. Anglen

I took strikes the very first day, time that I learned any Combat Ki. So within a few hours of beginning I was taking strikes to the throat, body and groin.


Well.. This was exactly what I was hoping not to read.

But thank you for your time and effort.

I'll check my Email too. Thank you both!

Bustillo, A.
21st September 2001, 13:18
I logged on to the Discovery channel site to see when it woill air again.
No luck so far.
I missed Part one.
I did see most of part two. The Goju and Uechi group were sharp. The 'Hotei' in black with his multi-colored belt, hell, that was a riot. Can't pass up a good laugh. Robby S. and the fat russian kung-fu psychic, Mikhail Ryabko, should get together. Just picture it.

Someone let me know when Discovery will air the show again.

A. Bustillo
www.SteadyTraining.com

Don Cunningham
21st September 2001, 14:44
Kent,

Despite your insistence that Sherry did not pass out during the exam as shown on the Discovery Channel, I have received a private e-mail from another participant who was close to her for the event. According to this witness, Sherry most definitely "became disoriented and dizzy and fell."

I would assume that your denial of this is based primarily on your own self interests in Juko-Kai. Therefore, I am more inclined to believe this other witness. Furthermore, she was much closer to Sherry at the time and was in a much better position to observe and report on the situation.

I would then ask what kind of ethics this demonstrates when a person purposely misrepresents the situation for their own benefit?

Alternity
21st September 2001, 21:23
Mr Cunningham, no hard feelings but, why did you feel you had to follow mr Anglen asking him things he already had tried to asnwer in another thread in another forum? I can understand that you are a sceptic about these things because I am myself, I can also understand that you would not agree with these people ideas/opinion/ideaology. But please, just answering every single post someone makes by saying that you think what he's doing is stupid will only bring flames and hate, and I think we will both agree that we've seen more than our share of these things lately. These people are not asking you to like what they do, they are not even asking you to respect what they do. They're just asking that you respect their right to speak about it between themselves...

I must admit that I am a bit disappointed to see such posts by someone who talked about bringing back a higher level of quality in the discussion on e-budo...

Now lets all get along and take a beer to ease the tension that has been growing in here lately.

Before you dismiss my opinion by saying that I must be in "for my own benefit" or that I have questionable ethics let me say that I am in no way a practiocionner of Juko Kai and in no way plan to become one. I just think they have as much the right to speak their minds as me about my aikibudo or you about whatever martial arts your practice...:toast: