off topic (would you take part?)

[Dennis Hooker]

To Whom It May Concern:

We all have a stake in the terrorist activity in America, and I entreat the United States government to not discount the American population at large. I hear talk of special U.S. Marshals on all domestic flights, or the use of Military Police and even arming the pilots of the Airplanes. Any and all of these measures may be needed as well as others, but don’t discount the American people and their courage, their resolve and their abilities. Use America’s greatest resource in the fight against terrorist activity. Use its people.

Every day in America we have thousands, if not tens of thousands of capable citizens boarding and flying on American airlines. These are educated people; many with military backgrounds though not all. Many would pass the highest security check and probably surpasses many of those that hold such clearance now. Thousands upon thousands are trained martial arts practitioners. I’m talking about profession people that study martial arts and martial philosophy as a way of life to help them deal with every day life. Many of these people are well-educated and very successful people from all walks of life who are better trained at close quarter fighting than most military or police personnel. I know because I have trained all three types. From people like level headed and courageous housewives to Harvard graduates that run some of Americas largest and most successful businesses we find qualified and brave citizens. We are citizens who are at risk and want to do our part in binding this country into a safe heaven for all who legally seek Americans freedoms.

As was shown recently there are those brave citizens who will pay the ultimate price and sacrifice their life to keep evil from it’s goal. The United Stares Government in conjunction with the airline industry could utilize this resource. Americas who wished to participate in a volunteer program could submit their qualifications to a review board. The review board could issue a grant of acceptance to those people that met their qualification. There are biomechanical identification systems out their that can, and do, identify without error individuals in its record base. When these people are scheduled to fly they would produce their identification card and would then be sent to a secure area where their identity would be positively confirmed. At that point they would be issued a electric stun gun. There could be several passengers on board so armed. At the end of the flight the stun guns would be turned in at the security office.

There is a vast community of loyal America citizens that are highly qualified, highly motivated and highly intelligent. They are from all races and all walks of life, and they want to participate in the protection of their families, themselves and America. I am not talking about vigilantes or cowboys or people who want to play soldier. I am talking about rock solid citizens. In the office next to mine it a Major in the Army Reserves and the office down from him a retired Lieutenant-Colonel, Airforce. When people like these are not on active duty, and if they office their help in the normal course of their daily lives should they be scoffed at? Over the last 35 years I have taught martial arts all over America, and the Caribbean and the wealth of America in skilled people is awesome.




Dennis Hooker
1940 Brengle Ave.
Orlando Fl. 32808
www.shindai.com

[don]

FWIW, a similar sentiment is expressed at the National Review site:

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-barnettprint091801.html

Saved by the Militia: Arming an army against terrorism.

By Randy E. Barnett is the Austin B. Fletcher Professor at Boston University and the author of The Structure of Liberty: Justice and the Rule of Law.

September 18, 2001 11:30 a.m.

[Excalibor]

Greetings, Mr. Hooker,




Originally posted by Dennis Hooker

To Whom It May Concern:




[...]



At that point they would be issued a electric stun gun. There could be several passengers on board so armed. At the end of the flight the stun guns would be turned in at the security office.




[...]





Dennis Hooker


1940 Brengle Ave.


Orlando Fl. 32808


www.shindai.com



I'll jump into this thread despite the fact I am not a citizen of the United States.



From my limited understanding of personal security laws, there may be states where stun guns are not legal. Of course, if all airports are/can be put under Federal laws, it could work. If not, it would depend on source or goal state that (civilian) passengers can bear such a self-defense weapon.



A different matter is international flights. For example, stun guns are illegal in Spain. I would imagine that no matter which guaranties the USA can provide for a certain civlian, they would still had to abide to local laws, even flying in USA companies. While the idea of such a temporary militia can be a sound one, citizens of many countries would fly in those planes, and they don't need the security provided by "an american kind of police".



I'm not being troll or harsh in here, I am just expressing a feeling found outside the USA, be it a sound one or not. An image of USA from Europe is that it's a country where a drunk man mad at you for any reason can draw a gun and shoot you down. Unprobable? Yes. Impossible? No. We don't bear weapons in here. Particularly in Spain, the only legally allowed self-defense weapon are some kinds (not all) of sprays, which cannot be carried on a plane, of course.



I think the idea is good, specially since it doesn't provide the bad guys who or how many defenders may a particular flight have on board (not very high considering the number of daily flights and the number of such people who may happen to fly), but it's a factor they wouldn't be able to take into account accurately.



However, I'd prefer a more trustable, accountable security dispositive for flights, if I had to fly on one. Passive security is good, for if planes depart "clean", it should be a safe flight. If any attacker would try to take over the plane using improvised weapons, or shere force, the passengers would be able to reduce them easily by simple math of numbers, specially if any highly skilled people in close quarters combat happens to be on the flight. The same way they probably did in that Pittsburg plane.


And even then, I think the real solution is education. If people is educated to control their negative feelings so they don't loose control, and are taught self-defense the same way they are taught baseball or maths, every place would be safer, and violence in lots of places, not just planes, would be greatly diminished. I'm talking of schools, home, the streets, discos and pubs... As Aikidô teaches us, the solution is not fighting back, but making the situation such that there's no agression to self defend from in the first place.


This is a long, difficult solution, but it may be the only real solution, as it involves, not just the citizens of one country, but the whole world. It implies becoming a more humane world, more humane politics and more humane economies. If people has no reasons to hate, they will probably not.


Just my thoughts, from outside,



best regards,



David S. de Lis

[Mike Collins]

Yes

[chrisinbrasil]

I think that using the public is very interesting. The difference I would suggest would, however, be behavioral. Simply, we cannot tolerate terrorism. When an American citizen finds him/herself on a flight that has been hijacked. End the hijacking. Here is the reasoning. We've seen that a hijacked plane will cause immense death and destruction. Simply throw out the old "Don't react" theory. Think about it. The hijackers board and take over the plane. At the first convenient moment, two or three people jump on the closest one and start taking him out. Suddenly, another appears, and threatens to shoot a passenger if they don't sit down. They simply don't sit down. One passenger gets shot. One terrorist is dead. The terrorist opens fire on the passengers, the passengers attack the terrorists. All in all, 8 passengers are brutally murdered, but the terrorists are killed in the process. Let's say 4 or 5 terrorists. How long do you think the terrorists will continue hijacking planes? The American population simply needs to remember that if they don't put their lives on the line, thousands more people could die at the hands of the terrorists who guide the planes. I'm pretty sure we'd run out of terrorists before we'd run out of Americans. Perhaps then the U.S. could also consider itself the brave country it once was, since sitting submissively in your seat while the terrorists lead you to hell seems a tad cowardly to me. Sounds extreme, but I think it would work.

I say let's take it to 'em if they show up on our flight. First thing I would say...
"You've never met anybody from Portland have you?" then BAM.

[Mike Collins]

Just to clarify:

Nothing cowardly about playing by the rules and trying to keep everyone alive.

The deal is, the rules have changed. Now resistance is the only logical course.

[Dojorat]

Greetins All,

Someone passed around an internet message the other day in my office that applied to this thread, I wish I had kept the reference. Anyway, it was a story about a pilot who welcomed the passengers on board a flight shortly after planes had resumed flying. He congratulated on their courage expressed simply by the fact that they were willing to get on the plane. He reassured them that, with the heightened security, there was little chance that anyone could get any explosives or other weapons aboard.

He then proceeded to give fairly reasonable instructions that, in the event someone did stand up and announce they were hijacking the plane, the passengers should start throwing whatever was handy at that person. While they were being bombarded with pillows, magazines, cell phones, laptops, briefcases whatever, he suggested that others grab blankets and cover the perpetrator and in this way minimize their ability to fight back. He added that, at the first notice of trouble, the flight crew would be taking the plane down to the nearest airport and bringing the authorities into the picture. It seemed like some very reasonable and thought out advice and was certainly not your typical "sit back and enjoy the flight" pretakeoff chat.

So, at least one airline representative out there has a similar idea to enlist the aid of the able bodied citizens who happen to be aboard.

Cheers,

[Dojorat]

Greetins again,

Have any of you ever been caught ignoring the advice of the flight crew to keep your seat belt buckled even tho' your seated when suddenly the plane hits an airpocket and drops suddenly? The sudden loss of gravity can be quite surprising.

It seemed to me that this could be used as an effective weapon against anyone standing in the aisle brandishing a weapon. Assuming the pilot's aware of the threat.

I'm no pilot but I'm wondering if it's possible to execute a maneuver in a large commercial jetliner that'll put anyone not buckled down on the ceiling of the airplane and then back down on the floor hard enough to hopefully incapacitate them.

If this became SOP for such threats the other members of the flight crew would at least be prepared to expect such a maneuver.

Cheers,

[BC]

Originally posted by Dojorat
Greetins again,

Have any of you ever been caught ignoring the advice of the flight crew to keep your seat belt buckled even tho' your seated when suddenly the plane hits an airpocket and drops suddenly? The sudden loss of gravity can be quite surprising.

It seemed to me that this could be used as an effective weapon against anyone standing in the aisle brandishing a weapon. Assuming the pilot's aware of the threat.

I'm no pilot but I'm wondering if it's possible to execute a maneuver in a large commercial jetliner that'll put anyone not buckled down on the ceiling of the airplane and then back down on the floor hard enough to hopefully incapacitate them.

If this became SOP for such threats the other members of the flight crew would at least be prepared to expect such a maneuver.

Cheers,

I friend and sempai of mine is a pilot with one of the airlines that had their planes hijacked. For obvious reasons, he is reevaulating his options if such a situation were to reoccur. This was one of them. His statement was that he could simply bounce them around the plane like a salt shaker. From what he has told me, commercial pilots train on flying upside down and sideways, and then turning them rightside up. So it is definitely an option. Just my two cents.

-Robert Cronin

[Dojorat]

Greetins BC,

Yesterday's Wall Street Journal (p. A19) has a fascinating true story of retired Israeli airline El Al pilot Uri Bar-Lev. Mr. Bar-Lev was piloting an El Al 707 in 1970. Two hijackers (who had been inadequately searched as part of a procedure during which two other suspected hijackers were thrown off the plane) produced a gun and two grenades and demanded that the door to the cockpit be opened. Capt. Bar-Lev refused the demand and...

"figuring almost everyone but the hijackers would be strapped in, ....put the plane into a negative-G dive a downward arc often used to train astronauts.... Sure enough the hijackers were thrown from their feet, and the two plainclothes El Al marshalls on board pounced. The male hijacker was killed, and the woman knocked unconscious." It was later revealed she was an experienced hijacker who had successfully hijacked a plane before.

Get this, the marshalls had to be snuck off and placed on another El Al flight back to Israel. The British authorities detained the crew and questioned them. They dropped charges only after being assured that the hijacker had not died over British soil.

The two suspects who were thrown off by Capt. Bar-Lev went on to hijack a Pan Am 747.

The article goes on to speak to the fact that current laws and regulations create situations where the crews are subject to prosecution if they "endanger" their passengers by resisting hijackers.

Anyway, it was interesting to learn that something I thought might be a bit far fetched was, in actuality, quite feasible and used effectively. Makes me reconsider a lot of what I do while training.

Cheers,