PDA

View Full Version : Tenshinsho-den Katori Shinto-ryu



Michael Becker
28th June 2000, 13:29
***THANK YOU TO EVERYONE THAT HAS EMAILED ME.

PLEASE CAN ANYONE ELSE WANTING A COPY NOT EMAIL ME AT THIS PRESENT TIME. I AM BUSY TRYING TO SORT OUT THE TAPES FOR THOSE THAT HAVE ALREADY CONTACTED ME.

I WILL PLACE ANOTHER THREAD WHEN I KNOW THE TAPES HAVE BEEN RECIEVED AND THEN WE CAN ORGANISE COPIES FOR OTHER INTRESTED PARTIES. THANK YOU FOR YOUR PATIENCE!*****

MICHAEL BECKER


Hello All

There seems to be some intrest in the BBC documentary on the Katori Shinto Ryu I mentioned in another thread.
I offered to send out five copies to intrested people if they emailed me, but I think that the demand is likely to outstrip availabililty.

So, I have an idea. I am prepared to do another five copies ( total of ten ). I dont want any money because as I have said before, I am not in the business of pirating videos ( I am footing all the costs out of my own pocket).

What I would like is for some of the people that recieve a copy to volunteer to do the same. So, for example, if five people recieve a copy and then send out five copies themselves, then that means that 30 people in total can have a copy.

I am not insisting on this and anyone that recieves a copy will not have their name or details passed on whatsoever. But, since I am sending out free copies, it would be nice for those recieving one to help out other intrested parties.

As it stands, I have six copies left to send out. If anyone wants one then they can email me directly and I will get them a tape out.

Once the tapes are gone I will post a message here to tell people.

So dont be shy, email me if you are intrested!

[Edited by Michael Becker on 06-29-2000 at 06:10 AM]

Michael Becker
28th June 2000, 18:12
Hello Again,

Thank you for the response.

I have had slightly more than ten emails from people willing to make copies for others which is great!

Because all of those that replied said that they would be prepared to make a copy for intrested people then I will make sure that everyone that emailed gets a copy.

The video will be in PAL format because I taped the program from English TV. However, if you look in the Yellow Pages, you can find people that can make you a copy in NTSC format. I have a brother in the US and he has been able to have videos converted from NTSC into PAL-I assume the reverse can be done.

So, I will start copying in the next couple of days and email people directly when I post a copy out to them.

IF ANYONE ELSE WOULD LIKE A COPY, PLEASE BE PATIENT. I WILL GET THE VIDEOS SENT OUT AND THEN WE CAN TRY TO ORGANISE SOMETHING AFTER I KNOW THEY HAVE BEEN RECIEVED.

Michael Becker
25th July 2000, 16:29
PLEASE DO NOT CONTACT ME REGARDING COPIES OF THIS TAPE.

I APPRECIATE THAT THERE IS CONTINUING INTREST BUT I WILL NOT, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, BE SENDING ANY FURTHER COPIES OUT-I HAVE ALREADY SENT OUT NEARLY 20 AT MY OWN EXPENSE. ANY FURTHER EMAIL ENQUIRES WILL NOT BE REPLIED TO.

THANK YOU

Michael Becker

[Edited by Michael Becker on 01-22-2001 at 06:38 AM]

Yamantaka
25th July 2000, 18:35
Hello, Michael!

I'm one of the happy recipients of your tape. Simply fantastic. It's unbelievable that such a documentary was aired on tv...till we see that it was from the BBC!
As I already possessed a tape from the other TSKSR branch(the Sugino Sensei one), it was good to compare the two men(Sugino and Risuke Ohtake).
Thanks again for your good will and best regards
Yamantaka

gnoble
25th July 2000, 20:44
I would be interested in a copy of the TSKSR tape.

BTW, I'm from WV.

Thanks!

artist
25th July 2000, 21:18
[Edited by artist on 07-27-2000 at 04:06 PM]

Ken Allgeier
26th July 2000, 02:37
I would also like a copy of the program " way of the Warrior" I live in the U.S and would need a NTSC format.


Thank You



ken allgeier

Goon Jhuen Weng
26th July 2000, 07:35
I would truly appreciate a copy as well. I'm living in Australia and my email is in the profile section and I use NTSC for my video player. Thanks a lot!

Joanne Miller
26th July 2000, 08:32
Although it's a nice thought sharing such videos to others without charging them anything I think one should consider more than just the good will of the act.Sometimes although the intentions are good they might spawn something else which is not favourable.

Regarding the circulation of these series about Katori Shinto Ryu (or any such tapes for that matter)I feel it's like giving "A loaded gun" indescriminately to someone one doesn't know.(Although the series was shown on television). It's a personal view but it carries over to my opinion why I am not keen on having translations of rare budo material from Japanese to English as well. I feel the opportunity to misuse would be greater than the benifits it would reap. Just my opinion though..

It would be extremly regrettable if such tapes fall into wrong hands where someone just viewing snippets from such footage go ahead and start dishing out "advise" the Katori Shinto Ryu "way" as done by Otake sensei or start comparing systems when they are not even Monjin of the ryu to begin with.It's extremely disgraceful if that happens.

So although the intentions are good I feel it's just NOT a good idea to circulate such items around... If one manages to catch it on television it's fine otherwise I don't see the point circulating it to let as many people see it as possible. Hopefully, someone from Shinbukan who is in a better position would have some comments with regards to this issue..

Regards,

[Edited by Joanne Miller on 07-26-2000 at 02:45 AM]

MarkF
26th July 2000, 11:08
Hi, Artist,
Since there is no way yet of sending you a private message, please note the forum rules and sign with your full name. You may choose the signature feature in your profile, and never have to worry about it again:)

Joanne,
Yours is also well intentioned but probably a little late. A teacher of mine back in the sixties once said: "The most dangerous person is one with a little knowledge of how to hurt people, but without sufficient knowledge as NOT to hurt them." But a video of this type on this forum is not likly to cause anyone harm. The one who wishes to call h/herself "Dr. Dai soki soto pop" and pass h/herself off as a master usually does little damage, except to h/herself. Your concern, though, is very much appreciated.

Michael Becker
26th July 2000, 13:04
Dear Joanne

I have to say that I find your comments quite incredible!
Have you actually seen the program in question? If not, how can you possibly say that it should not be circulated?

The BBC produced the 'Way of the Warrior' series for the benefit of the general public so that people could get an accurate picture of the martial arts and what they represent. Would it be better if the only sources of information were some of the rags that proclaim themselves to be martial arts magazines?

Since Otake sensei provided the information for the program and was featured throughout I dont think you are qualified to condemn. Or are you implying that you know better than the head teaching master of the TSKSR what should and shouldnt be shown?

Otake sensei to my knowledge is very particular about what he demonstrates in public, keeping a large part of the schools teachings private.

If you want to vent your spleen over material irresponsibly passed on then why dont you go and crusade over the Dim Mak videos and books that are being sold.

I find your attitude that information regarding certain schools should be kept hidden away from prying eyes and be the sole preserve of an elite few to be very small minded.

Do you think the looney fringe would consult translations of rare texts? Basic grammar seems to be beyond many of them. What they dont know they simply make up!

Are you seriously suggesting that by sending out copies of the program I will be responsible for the spawning of numerous Joke-jutsu and Wizard Ryu schools? Dont talk rubbish!

I have went to some effort to ensure that as many people as possible could see the program. The recipients seem to be quite happy about this as I have not had any complaints.
Of course they could be plotting devious things that I dont know about. I doubt it though.

Has it not occured to you that the best way to prevent the frauds from duping people is to make sure that as much legitimate information as possible is available to the public?

Censorship is very rarely justifiable in a free society.

Fortunately not everyone wants to keep their toys to themselves.

Just my opinion of course.

Undmark, Ulf
26th July 2000, 13:57
I very much agree with Michael here.

I have seen this program produced by the BBC.
While it is extremely well done (one of the best I have ever seen) it is in no way instructional!
This must have been the intention of both the producers and Otake sensei.

A more instructional work would be the three volumes, by Otake and Draeger, on TSKSR; "The Deity and the Sword".

In this documentary the producers have focused on following Otake sensei in his daily life, including his teaching of the Katori Shinto ryu, and explaining the origins, history and philosophy of this tradition.

The reason for Otake's participation, and the nature of this documentary, must have been that as many as possible should have the opportunity to see some of this ryuha, as well as explaining very common misunderstandings about Japanese martial arts.

I think that the BBC, Otake sensei and Michael have done a great job to inform the public and I can't see how any harm could possibly come out of it. Rather the opposite.

Regards,
Ulf Undmark

26th July 2000, 14:05
Hi,

I must agree with Mr Becker here. The fact that the current headmaster of TSKSR felt comfortable with this offering to the public is all that needs to be said. Otake Sensei is the authority here. It's that simple. If he is comfortable with the public having access to the video then no one has the authority to question his decision. You may have the right to question his decision but not the expertise or authority. I for one have several tapes of Otake/TSKSR. I honestly can't imagine the problem with offering the accurate information of a koryu from the headmaster. It stretches credulity.

Respectfully,

Joanne Miller
26th July 2000, 16:23
Hello Mr Becker,
Given that I startd this particular post it's only right of me to respond.


Originally posted by Michael Becker
I dont think you are qualified to condemn. Or are you implying that you know better than the head teaching master of the TSKSR what should and shouldnt be shown?

I think you have misinterpret the nature of my post. I never condemmed (as you put it in your words) the production. And I suggest you should re-read my post carefully to see if there is any line suggesting I condem it. Neither have I impled that I know better than the head teacher master of the TSKSR and I certainly don't know how you could twist my views into that direction. Maybe my views differ from yours and might incest you but to suggest that of me (know better that the head teaching master..)and twist it around is pretty unfair.


Originally posted by Michael Becker
If you want to vent your spleen over material irresponsibly passed on then why dont you go and crusade over the Dim Mak videos and books that are being sold

I am not on a crusade nor am I venting myself on anything and I am certainly no budo-guarding-vigilante. My point of my previous post is that your act of kindness might be a 2 edge sword. Point being we would not know who might be on the reciving on of such items.(Pass to one person and person makes copies to distribute to others) I am just giving my side of the prepective what MIGHT happen , I didn't said that it defiently would happen.


Originally posted by Michael Becker
Do you think the looney fringe would consult translations of rare texts? Basic grammar seems to be beyond many of them.

Defintely those who wish to dabble into such rare text can't understand such language given that such documents are written in classical style with their own meanings.Furthermore mere ability to understand classical forms does not mean one could read it of like a book as such meanings require intiation into the system. However with a program (video) being visual it's different...



Originally posted by Michael Becker
Are you seriously suggesting that by sending out copies of the program I will be responsible for the spawning of numerous Joke-jutsu and Wizard Ryu schools? Dont talk rubbish![/B]

I never suggested that you are responsible for the spawning of such schools with regards to the circulation of the production. Maybe because my message was directed to the thread that you feel I am attacking you and blaming you for "wizard ryu" schools which are around.If you feel that way then I think you are mistaken. My intention was to point out the possible "unfavourable" outcomes that might occur. I did not suggest that you would be cause of it.


Originally posted by Michael Becker
Of course they could be plotting devious things that I dont know about. I doubt it though.![/B]

I am not accusing anyone who recieve such tapes to do devious things but as I said in my earlier message and as you stated in the line above there could be.That's my intention on my previous post. We wouldn't know especially if the person who recieves it makes duplicates and pass it around. Sort of like an exponential growth thing. Some of us on this board know how Katori's name have been mis-use by a certain group and when confronted deny it. My point of my post is that it could happen again but we wouldn't know. Sometimes doing something might have an effect one does not intent from the first place. Be in good or bad we wouldn't know. *Just like my previous message where my intentions were misread and taken to mean I am questioning the production by the head teacher of TSKSR which I am not*



Originally posted by Michael Becker
Has it not occured to you that the best way to prevent the frauds from duping people is to make sure that as much legitimate information as possible is available to the public?.[/B]

Yes, I defiently agree on that. With works done by pioneering western martial art writers these days it's defiently a harder time for the frauds. However with the sharing of such information there is always a possibilty it could give rise to "smarter frauds" who make use of snippets of such information to "cloud" people.In short I am not condemming the production (That was never was my intention nor would I be bold enough to even hold a figment of such incorrigble behaviour in me) nor was my intention to condemm your action.The reason of my previous post is to offer my prespective that sometimes good things turn bad when they were not intended to be so in the first place as well as to point out the possible "unfavourable" outcomes that might occur.


With Regards to Mr Threadgill,


Originally posted by Toby Threadgill
You may have the right to question his decision but not the expertise or authority.

As replied to Mr Becker above. I never did once question the decision of TSKSR I suggest you read my previous post careful with regard to my intentions. In that statement of yours it apparently makes it seem that I "had" said such things (question expertise or authority) when I did not. It gives others a false impression of the nature of my post by twisting my intentions. I am sure you did not do so with malice but you choice of words made it seem such. With things such as a forums sometimes intentions can be misread with one's choice of words as one rely on words to convey one's feelings. But on the whole I take it people mean what they say in good faith unless I am mistaken..

Regards,

[Edited by Joanne Miller on 07-26-2000 at 10:28 AM]

Ken Shafer
26th July 2000, 20:33
Hello Ms. Miller,

I would have to concur with Mr. Becker on this. I don't see how anyone could 'claim' knowledge of Katori Shinto Ryu by watching this documentary (or even remotely hope to BS their way through a conversation about KSR). This tape is not even remotely instructional. It *might* provide a practitioner of Katori Shinto Ryu some visual reminders for practice purposes (not being a KSR practitioner myself, I felt I should add that caveat).

I don't believe knowledge is to be kept secret; it is to be shared *responsibly* by those entrusted with it. As Mr. Becker stated, this program was aired on the BBC (not even a pay/cable channel) and it was done with Otake Sensei's sole and active participation/blessing obviously. He knows best in this as Katori Shinto Ryu is *his* system to administer as he sees fit.

I may have missed this in your two posts on this topic but, have you seen the program in question? Did you receive a tape from Mr. Becker that prompted this?

You may have not intended to appear to condemn Mr. Becker (or the BBC program) but that is certainly how it came across. I think your 'two edged sword' argument is a bit too alarmist, IMHO. Your desire to withhold 'ancient texts' from the masses is exactly the type of secrecy that has perpetuated tai chi frauds for so long (as one worldwide example). Were those classical texts kept from the masses 'for their own protection'? I think not. So as not to make myself out to be an authority on TCC, I have spent the last 8 odd months researching it (not practicing it) and the internal arts in general just trying to make heads or tails of who is a real TCC practitioner and who isn't.

The withholding of information has _directly_ aided the perpetuation of frauds in the martial arts. I don't see how anyone could argue that theory (with facts to back up there assertion). I am sorry to be rude, but I think your approach is flawed Ms. Miller. You may have good intentions, but many bad things happen because of people with good intentions.

To make my background in this clear, I did receive a tape of the program in question from Mr. Becker. I thought it was excellent and a very valuable additional to my MA's library! I thank him for his generosity.

Regards,

Ken Shafer

26th July 2000, 21:59
Ms Miller,

You stated:

"Regarding the circulation of these series about Katori Shinto Ryu (or any such tapes for that matter)I feel it's like giving "A loaded gun" indescriminately to someone one doesn't know."

Then you stated:

"I never did once question the decision of TSKSR I suggest you read my previous post careful with regard to my intentions. In that statement of yours it apparently makes it seem that I "had" said such things (question expertise or authority) when I did not. It gives others a false impression of the nature of my post by twisting my intentions."

____________________________________________________________

Since the ultimate decision concerning the dissemination of information contained on the tape rested originally with Otake Sensei, I don't think I was unfairly twisting any words in my post. You even likened the information on the tape to "A loaded gun". If this is not a direct condemnation of Otake Sensei's decision to release this information into the publics domain, I don't know what is.

I very carefully read your post. If it doesn't accurately reflect your actual opinions, perhaps you need to compose them more carefully.

Sincerely,











[Edited by Toby Threadgill on 07-26-2000 at 04:03 PM]

Joseph Svinth
26th July 2000, 23:00
The entire series is for sale commercially, and has been for at least fifteen years. For information, visit http://www.bbcfootage.com or write BBC Worldwide, 747 Third Avenue, 7th Floor, New York, NY 10017. The supporting book by Reid and Croucher is also in print.

Okay, this means you'd have to pay full market value, but what the heck, copyright owners like getting paid, too, you know.

Tim Atkinson
27th July 2000, 00:12
Michael Becker

I have yet to receive my copy but thank you for taking the time and expence to send the tape. I will thank you by passing it on to others in the same spirit as you yourself have exhibited.

Anyone in Australia/New Zealand/ South Pacific wanting a copy please answer via e-mail.

tatkinson@sia.net.au

I hope to hear from you soon Goon!

All the best,

Adam Young
27th July 2000, 02:15
Originally posted by Joanne Miller
Regarding the circulation of these series about Katori Shinto Ryu (or any such tapes for that matter)I feel it's like giving "A loaded gun" indescriminately to someone one doesn't know....
With respect, I must disagree with this. ANY information whatsoever (regarding any subject) can be "misued". However, this should not stop the dissemination of such information, especially if people can benefit from it, and especially if those from whom the information originates give it freely and with the intention that it people be able to receive it.


It would be extremly regrettable if such tapes fall into wrong hands where someone just viewing snippets from such footage go ahead and start dishing out "advise" the Katori Shinto Ryu "way"....
Yes, it is regrettable, but there is nothing that can be done about it. There are people who may do this, and preventing them from seeing a BBC TV show will to little to stop them. The tapes (which I have not seen, but which I assume follow the general scope of information in the book) are not filled with any great mysteries or with anything that anyone with a little wherewithal could not discover by other means.

Otake sensei has a set group of forms that outsiders see. The omote forms that are on the TSKSR Budokan tape are about it. The rest of the stuff is (by-and-large) in-school only. There is a great deal of stuff that I have never seen nor will see for years (assuming I get to the level where I can learn it). As far as I am concerned, if Otake sensei willingly participated in the program and had no problems with it (despite his knowing that there are charlatans out there), then that is pretty well the end of the matter.

In any case, the only thing I am really qualified to do is train.


Hopefully, someone from Shinbukan who is in a better position would have some comments with regards to this issue.
I hope that my comments have been of value. And, just so all are clear on this, my comments are my own personal ones, and do not in any way represent "general Shinbukan views". There is no way I could (or would) presume to speak for anyone other than myself.

Cheers.

andre joseph
27th July 2000, 03:38
I would like a copy,plrase e-mail me at dresangel@hotmail.com Iam in houston,tex

Richard A Tolson
27th July 2000, 06:10
Joe,
Though I am sure the original poster meant no harm, what is suggest is certainly the legal route.
Went to the site you linked, but couldn't find info on the series.

Fredrik Blom
27th July 2000, 07:26
Hm, that's really interesting... I know several people (including myself) that have been looking for a way to buy the complete series.
I even mailed BBC some years ago and asked for it. The reply stated something like "is not and will not be available on video".

I couldn't find it on the web-page mentioned above though, http://www.bbcfootage.com, but that says more about my search-abilities I guess/hope :)

Any exact link, prices, etc. anyone? I'll buy it for sure, having seen some of the episodes (not the TSKSR one though) on very bad copies, I've always wanted to get hold of the complete series with good quality.

Regards,
Fredrik Blom

Michael Becker
27th July 2000, 10:26
There is nothing illegal about circulating copies of a program show on tv provided money is not being made.

One of the reasons that I have not accepted ANY money is to ensure that no allegations of video piracy could be made.

If the BBC want to sell the series on video then I would be happy to buy it myself but they do not currently do so. I have checked with suppliers and it is not available.

Joseph Svinth
27th July 2000, 10:53
Duplicating is an interesting area of law, and if you believe the music industry, making a tape of a song you hear on the radio is a Federal offense. But in general, Michael is correct, nobody cares so long as you're not selling the stuff. Still, in general, I would recommend doing such things in private e-mail rather than on bulletin boards, as the Gestapo may be watching and it tends to go after small fry rather than the mobsters who duplicate films and CDs by the tens of thousands.

As for the BBC site, they don't list what they have. Instead you have to write them letters asking. Use a business letterhead, express interest in paying money, and you should receive a copy of what films are available. They won't sell the whole series, just bits and pieces, and for a commercial outfit, they aren't too expensive. Indeed, I don't think it costs more than a few thousand dollars for one-time use of the segment we're talking about.

And if that seems a bit pricey, well, everybody and his mother seems to have enough money to buy 10-dan ranking and attend $250 a plate dinners at the World Karate Hall of Fame, so I must assume everybody has money to spend on films, too.

MarkF
27th July 2000, 11:12
I heard today that Napster.com was shut down by the feds due to a ruling by a federal court judge that they would likely lose the case in court. And these are people exchanging songs on the web? I think Joe has a point. Take it to email or private messaging. Be on the safe side.

Michael Becker
27th July 2000, 12:08
Ok then. In order to aviod any possible problems for John Lindsey,

ANYONE THAT REQUIRES A COPY PLEASE EMAIL ME PRIVATELY AND I WILL FORWARD THE EMAIL TO ALL OF THE VARIOUS PEOPLE THAT I PROVIDED COPIES FOR. PLEASE NOTE THAT I CANNOT AND WILL NOT GUARANTEE THAT SOMEONE WILL REPLY AND OFFER A COPY. I MYSELF WILL NOT BE SENDING OUT ANY FURTHER COPIES SINCE I HAVE ALREADY DONE SIXTEEN!.

(sigh, just when I thought life was getting easier...)

I respectfully request that the moderator close this thread so no one else posts here if they want a copy.

Brian Jones
29th July 2000, 08:53
Joanne,

Your about 20yrs too late with your warning for one instructor in California did take the ryu's name in vain- and this was before the video in question was even filmed.

The one universal truth that I have found in my years of training follows: LET THE BUYER BEWARE. I know in the past(years ago)I have been taken in by phonies, for a short while, and they got their techniques from a film of Draeger sensei performing TSKSR kata.

E-budo folks, I truly believe that Michael should be commended for spending mucho time and cash making this video available.

Thrust true,

Brian Jones
Houston HACA

carl mcclafferty
30th July 2000, 04:55
Michael:
I don't think Otake will be too excited about people looking at a BBC Broadcast. I'll be seeing him this week and explain it.

Carl McClafferty

Richard A Tolson
30th July 2000, 06:17
Michael,
I was not trying to be a hard-ass or put you down for your generosity. However, the distribution of such a tape is copyright infringement. No, they probably would not come after you, but I would not consider it worth the risk myself. We never know who is lurking on the Internet :).

sinsis
30th July 2000, 20:28
Dear Budoists,

I would also like a copy of the program " way of the Warrior" I live in Amsterdam in the Netherlands and would need PAL format.

It would make me very happy..

Michael Becker
30th July 2000, 23:15
ANYONE INTRESTED IN A TAPE PLEASE EMAIL ME DIRECTLY!

mjjbecker@somewhere79.swinternet.co.uk

If you dont email me directly I will not be able to reply as I will only be picking up email for the next month or so ( VERY BUSY at the moment so I wont have time to check out ebudo for a while ).

So if you dont contact me directly I wont be able to help!

Michael Becker
(Going old and grey before his time!)

sinsis
1st August 2000, 14:15
I send the following email to BBC footage..

<<<<Dear Sir / Madam,

I'm looking for the complete series of "Way of the warrior". Also i'm interested in other martial arts documentaries that the BBC made.

Please contact me for further information.

Yours truly,

Sinsis Stein.>>>>

This was my answer...

<<<<Dear Sinsis
Unfortunately The Way of the Warrior has not been made commercially
available on video and
as far as I can find out there are no plans to release it in the near
future.
I have also checked for other titles on the same subject by the BBC but
cannot locate anything.

Regards

Steve>>>>>

So although I like to pay the price it aint going to happen!

Could please anybody help me with a copy?

Greetings,

Sinsis Stein

R. Scherzinger
7th August 2000, 16:04
Joseph,
I contacted BBC at bbcfootage and recieved a phone call from a research/librarian J. Kilburn @ BBC UK she said that the series "the way of the Warrior" was not and had not ever been for sale. Please give us a point of contact so we can accesss this tape.
Should I just send a letter to the afore mentioned address?
Anyway, I would really appreciate your help in my attempt to expand my video archive.
Thanks,

Remleh Scherzinger

J. Ribot
18th August 2000, 23:43
Hello all,

I would appreciate the help of any one out there who understands the Japanese language better than I. I am having a difficult time trying to translate some of the names of the katas from the Omote no tachi and Gogyo no tachi of the TSKSR.

The purpose of my inquery is one of personal enlightenment and research. Any type of help would be wonderful. The following are the names of the kata.

( OMOTE NO TACHI )

1. Itsutsu-no-Tachi
2. Nanatsu-no-Tachi
3. Kasumi-no-Tachi
4. Hakka-no-Tachi


( GOGYO NO TACHI )

1. Mitsu-no-Tachi
2. Yotsu-no-Tachi
3. IN-no-Tachi
4. Sha-no-Tachi
5. Hotsu-no-Tachi

Thank You,

J. Ribot

Ruediger
19th August 2000, 17:27
The following translation is taken from a manuscript of Ulf Rott. He teaches Katori Shinto Ryu (Sugino-ha) in germany.

http://home.t-online.de/home/rottulfizm/aikikobu.htm


itsutsu-no-tachi

the second kanji means harbour,flood,tide,ferry
the kata could be translated as

five tide sword

-------------------

nanatsu-no-tachi

seven tide sword or also as seven harbour sword (see the first kata)
But it seems that it has to do with "hokutoshichisei" (an astronomical constellation). So the translation of the kata could be, that the seven stars of this constellation protect the body.

------------------


kasumi-no-tachi

god gather sword

it seems that the name of the kata means, that god (or gods) protect the body.


-----------------

hakka-no-tachi

eight gods sword

it seems, that the name of the kata means, that 8 million gods protect the body (hapyakumanshintsudou)


As i wrote above, this a translation from Ulf Rott. The translation is in german, if there are any mistakes in the translation from german into english, this would be my fault.

best regards

Ruediger Meier

Eric Ling
20th August 2000, 12:02
I don't study KSR and haven't seen the kanji but I do speak Japanese and it seems to me that Mitsu, Yotsu, Itsutsu and Nanatsu are just numbers from the old Japanese numbering system as follows:

One:Hitotsu
Two: Futatsu
Three: Mitsu
Four: Yotsu
Five: Itsutsu
Six: Mutsu
Seven: Nanatsu
Eight: Yatsu
Nine: Kokonotsu
Ten: To

Mitsu no tachi would therefore simply read "Third Sword (Technique)". Hope this has helped - the only kanji involved in mitsu is "san" (three) so if there actually IS a kanji for "tide" there somewhere then ignore this post as I clearly don't know what I'm talking about.

All the best

Eric

Ruediger
20th August 2000, 17:24
Hi Eric,

the translation above is taken from a manuscript by Ulf Rott. He speaks japanese (he lived in japan for about three years) and is married with a japanese woman. His woman practice also Katori Shinto Ryu. You're right with your argument that the names has to do with the japanese form of counting, but... sometimes things are more then they look first.
I'm not an expert at all, but i think that Mr. Rott has also asked his teachers, before he made such statements. But maybe someone here on e-budo has more knowledge to share than i have and can tell us more about the name of the kata.

BTW, i also do not practice Katori Shinto Ryu and my japanese is so poor that i wouldn't say that i can really speak japanese.

best regards

Ruediger Meier

Richard A Tolson
21st August 2000, 01:17
If the kanji for the sword techniques are the same as for the naginata, then the kanji simply translate as:
Itsutsu - Five Harbor
Nanatsu - Seven Harbor
Kasumi - Mist
Hakka - Eight (the second kanji is simply used to denote something counted)
This is based on the kanji found in THE DEITY AND THE SWORD. However, this does not exclude any form of mystical meanings associated with the names.

George Kohler
21st August 2000, 07:03
Originally posted by Richard A Tolson
Kasumi - Mist
Hakka - Eight (the second kanji is simply used to denote something counted)
This is based on the kanji found in THE DEITY AND THE SWORD.

Hi Richard,

Which "The Deity And The Sword" are you looking at? The one I have doesn't say that Kasumi means "Mist" or Hakka as being just "Eight."

What Mr Meier wrote looks like what the Kanji says in TDATS.

Richard A Tolson
21st August 2000, 07:25
George,
The volume on Naginata and Sojutsu. The kanji are given for each technique and are easily translatable.
For example the kanji used for the third naginata technique demonstrated are simply kasumi-no-naginata. The kanji for kasumi is #2814 in NTC'S NEW JAPANESE-ENGLISH CHARACTER DICTIONARY and simply means, "mist" or "haze". Perhaps there are different kanji used in the Kenjutsu volume.

George Kohler
21st August 2000, 07:40
Originally posted by Richard A Tolson
George,
The volume on Naginata and Sojutsu. The kanji are given for each technique and are easily translatable.
For example the kanji used for the third naginata technique demonstrated are simply kasumi-no-naginata. The kanji for kasumi is #2814 in NTC'S NEW JAPANESE-ENGLISH CHARACTER DICTIONARY and simply means, "mist" or "haze". Perhaps there are different kanji used in the Kenjutsu volume.

Hi Richard,

I didn't look at that book first, but you are right. The Sword book does shows the kanji as different from the Naginata book.

carl mcclafferty
21st August 2000, 17:56
Folks:
Just got back from Japan. Just one or two quick notes:
Kasumi is the name of a particular technique in the kata, don't read too much into it and there is only one TSKSR dojo authorized to teach by the Soke, that is Otake Risuke Sensei's in Chiba.

Thanks
Carl

Richard A Tolson
21st August 2000, 18:14
George,
Thanks for the info!
I don't have the sword book that is why I asked if the kanji were the same. I hate to assume. :)

J. Ribot
21st August 2000, 22:26
Hello All,

Thank you all for your comments and replies. The information you have given me is of much help and greatly appreciated.

Regards,

J. Ribot

gmellis
22nd August 2000, 00:54
Most names for waza ARE in fact apparent and take little thought to realize the relation between the name and the movements in the waza, while others might take a little more cultural or historical knowledge to grasp why that particular word or combination of kanji was chosen for a particluar waza. A good example is Hanetsurube-no-bo. If anyone can tell me why the 4th set of TSKSR bo is called this, i will give them some cookies and milk. (as i do not represent the Shimbukan, Otake Sensei, the Soke, or anyone else related to the school i am not at liberty to divulge the why behind the what. But you still get a cookie for effort.) Don't feel bad if you don't get this one, becuase 90% of the Japanese mates i was practicing with at the Shimbukan that day (regulars) didn't know what it meant either until it was explained to them. Just my 2 yen.


Greg Ellis
89th Headmaster of Debu-no-Aho Ryu Namakemono-Ha school of the Super-Secret Exotic Deadly and All-around Painful Art of Gas Grilling

Adam Young
22nd August 2000, 02:05
Do I qualify for cookies and milk if I answer?

By the way, Grandmaster Superfly Ultra-Mega Super-Saiyajin DaiSoke, I believe hanetsurube-no-bo is #5. Yonban ha, kasahazushi deshou? Of course, I know that you were just testing us... ;)

Do I get a black belt with a gold star for pointing that out?

gmellis
22nd August 2000, 05:09
<damn decaffeinated coffee!!> Very well done, Adam. Of, course it was a test..hehe...er, uhm, the 89th Soke NEVER makes mistakes. You noticed the hidden (i.e. deliberate) mistake i planted within the question to throw lesser foes off the track quite skillfully. And no. You don't get milk OR cookies, becuase you are an insider, you have caused me great loss of face in a public forum, and you are an all-around mean nasty person-type. I will give you SOMETHING black, though, with stars to boot! I challenge you to the ancient and honorable duel of the 3 foot salamis, so that i may restore my honor. I hope you are mentally prepared for a Hormmel whoopin'. Anyway. Yes, Hanetsurube-no-bo is #5, not #4, Kasahazushi-no-bo. The 89th Headmaster has spoken.

[Edited by gmellis on 08-21-2000 at 11:51 PM]

core
24th August 2000, 01:41
The comment that Otake Sensei is the only qualified teacher of Katori Shinto Ryu is incorrect.

Sugino Sensei received his menkyo from the headmaster at the time (dunno his name) many years ago. This entitles him to teach, and to pass on his own menkyo to his students.

AFAIK, and others here may know more about this than I. But I do know that Sugino Sensei granted menkyo to a number of his students, and that he approves of dojos teaching KSR in places such as Milan, Norway and Montreal.

If you consider Sugino Sensei qualified then there's no reason to consider these teachers unqualified.

On the other hand, I also know that at least one of Otake Sensei's students set himself up as a teacher without the menkyo. So there are unscrupulous types out there.

Adam Young
24th August 2000, 02:57
Hi Corey,

Glad to see that you've signed up at E-Budo. Prepared for the addiction?

But, re: the Sugino/Otake thing, really, it is best to let it drop. Nip it in the bud, so to speak. Debates of this sort have infected budo discussions for quite some time and will unfortunately continue to do so, despite the fact that they always get us absolutely nowhere.

You and I have talked about this in the past (what, about 2 years ago or so...) and as I recall, we agreed to disagree. As neither of our opinions is likely to change, that is the best solution, I think.

I have a definite opinion on the subject. Don't get me wrong. I absolutely believe that what I have been taught regarding this subject is right, and that other opinions are, however sincerely held, mistaken. But I also have only just started to realise how useless it is for me to try and convince others that I am right. Why?

1) The only people I would ever really want to (or need to) convice (i.e. my dojo-mates) already share the same views. Everybody else is, with regard to this matter, superfluous. I mean, hey, I want to be friends and all, and I bear no ill-will towards anyone, but unless someone has taken the keppan and joined the Shimbukan, anything they say regarding TSKSR has no bearing on anything at all.

2) Sometimes trying to convince a "budo enthusiast" that a different opinion is valid is like trying to tell those Jehovah's Witnesses that come to your door at 4 p.m. on a Saturday afternoon that "Hey, I just don't believe in God." It is a waste of time and you'll end up in the same place as you started, only a hell of a lot more fatigued.

3) I've tried to learn from most of my Japanese dojo-mates, who, while having the same opinons as I do, don't go around trying to convince others that they are right: it just doesn't matter. What some 16-year old wannabe-samurai living in his parents' basement in rural Missouri thinks about TSKSR has abslutely NO bearing on the result of my going out to the dojo in Narita and practising my ass off. Otake sensei let me become a member of the dojo, not to run about and defend his name against all comers (assistance which he does not need at all), but to become good at what I do and to let my skill speak for me and the dojo. All other members of my dojo are quite confident in their belief in our ryu. It is only too bad that it has taken me so long to develop that same confidence.

So, the point of all this is: the debate which yet again threatens to bubble up is irrelevant. It doesn't matter. It has no bearing on your practice or mine. The only people who really seem to get into it are the non-initiates, and what they think about it means absolutely nothing.

You believe in what you practice? Fine, keep practising. I believe in what I practice, so I'll keep on at it. In the meantime, let's meet up for a beer next time I'm in Van.

Cheers

core
24th August 2000, 03:31
I know, I know, I should lurk for a while before posting.

Poor Impulse Control, what can I say?

Hi Adam. Guess I shouldn't be surprised to see you here.

kenkyusha
24th August 2000, 05:41
Hello Core,

Welcome to E-budo. Please note that full names are required for messages (the simplest way to do this is to configure it into your sig).

Be well,
Jigme

ghp
23rd February 2001, 04:12
I conducted a proxy interview with Otake sensei inside his home this past summer; the results will appear in the next issue of Dragon Times, due out mid-March. My written questions were presented by Carl McClafferty and interpreted by Scott Laking. Otake sensei's responses are recorded on tape.

This is the most recent official interview he has had to date, as far as I know... at least conducted by non-Japanese. He did have some articles/interviews printed in Hiden magazine a few years back, but they were in Japanese.

Although Otake sensei did not disclose any deep secrets, he did have some interesting things to say regarding succession (next soke), why the current soke does not practice, teaching authority, etc. Again, no big secrets ... but I'm sure a few items will be interesting.

The link http://www.dragon-tsunami.org/Dtimes/Pages/Dthome.htm will take you to the Dragon Times page mentioning the interview. If you are interested, please contact David Chambers (publisher) or John Edwards (editor)-- you can find their contact numbers somewhere on the DT web site.

Regards,
guy

Bambi
11th May 2001, 08:50
here's an "interesting" website for y'all;

http://www.katorishintoryu.freeserve.co.uk/

I'm not sure why this chap occasionally changes the "shoden" of tenshin shoden katori shinto ryu to "shodan" but his bio is very colorful;

"Shihan Balmer worked as a Mercenary in Africa and Cambodia where he had close contact with the Infamous Pol Pot.He was an international bodyguard for business people travelling across Europe and Asia in the sixties. his most famous client was Idi Amin ruler of Uganda. "


I thought of sticking this post on the bad budo forum but I really don't want to get on the wrong side of someone who worked for Idi Amin :)

fifthchamber
11th May 2001, 16:37
I am definately not going to argue with a guy who claims to have worked with Pol Pot and Idi Amin...
However, despite the information on his training history (and he does seem to be a first rate martial artist) there is only as much infomation on T.S.K.S.R. as can be gleaned from other web sites and other books (i.e. The Deity and The Sword- Otake Risuke.)
Maybe he would like to post here and settle the issue but at first glance the site seems to lack any in depth mention of his training in T.S.K.S.R. (apparently he has trained under Sensei Otake and others but details would have been nice..), indeed in anything other than Gendai Budo.
But as I said I am not going to argue here...I think I hear someone out back.........Ho-hum..

dakotajudo
11th May 2001, 16:55
Originally posted by fifthchamber
I am definately not going to argue with a guy who claims to have worked with Pol Pot and Idi Amin...


Given that Pol Pot and Idi Amin were genocidal dictators, isn't this a bit like claiming to have worked with Hitler? Don't people get arrested for that?

Some quotes
"Shihan Balmer travelled overland to China in the early sixties to perfect his training, a journey in those days that was only undertaken by explorers."

Does this mean 1860's?

"The Martial art of Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu Bu Jitsu can not be approached without delving
into Japanese history,Judo, Aikido, Taekwondo, Kendo, Kung Fu and the many systems of Bu Jitsu
and Ju jitsu had not even been thought of. The art is an integral part of the history of Japan and the point of origin for all Japanese martial arts."

Those of you more versed in koryu might be able to confirm that, but it's the first I've heard of it and I've studied a little Japanese history.

"Shihan Balmer is an undefeated world Kempo Champion , The competition was discontinued in the seventies because it was so violent but has been revitalised by the World Self Defence Fed., in a new pairs format"

Is this like the kumite Frank Dux made famous?

I dunno, seems like bad budo to me.

Peter

fifthchamber
11th May 2001, 17:17
It's OK for you, Ireland ain't exactly too far from here...
No seriously this does pong vaguely of 'Bad Budo' but if he likes it I suppose he's happy...and having a rotating Tenshin ShodAn Katori Shinto Ryu sign is just a touch of pure quality.

Walker
11th May 2001, 18:38
As I posted on another thread the school has been very clear about what they think about various TSKSR groups:
http://www.katorishintoryu.com/English/Documents/new4.htm
I know of other students who rigorously uphold their keppan.

MarkF
12th May 2001, 10:26
Hi, Peter,
I don't know anything of significance of Japanese history except from about 1860 or so to today, and that is very limited in itself.

But I believe TSKSR is considered the oldest *extant* ko ryu or at least it is said to be by those of certain organizations concerned with the study of ko ryu within the long history of Japan.

As to this chap's typos, I wouldn't dare to even step lightly, as even if I were "grasshopper" I might just step in it. In such a case, though, with all the other unedited and proof read misapplications of almost everything stated, the Bu**shi* is piled mighty high.:)

Signed,
Grasshopper

Steve Delaney
12th May 2001, 13:39
I have read articles about Balmer and his school in an COMBAT (An English MA rag.) It contained pictures of his group visiting Sugino Sensei (Senior) in Kawasaki, Japan and in N.I. The pictures were pretty weird. His group doing TSKSR kata and Ryukyu Kobudo at the same time.

Anyone who does Iai with a Nunchaku around their neck must be knee deep in the spirit of the Bu**shi*!

(Sorry Mark, couldn't help it! Lack of original material don't ye know!)


Cead Meas

Kolschey
12th May 2001, 15:04
Steve,

Bringing nunchaku to a sword fight? Is this a Japanese equivalent of the old "bringing a knife to a gun fight" admonition? Yikes! Does that mean that they are trying to somehow combine these styles? I have a sad yet funny picture in my mind of a Sai versus Naginata kata in my mind. I guess that's what happens when you fall asleep while watching Zena- Warrior Princess, though! :D

dakotajudo
12th May 2001, 15:50
Originally posted by MarkF
Hi, Peter,
I don't know anything of significance of Japanese history except from about 1860 or so to today, and that is very limited in itself.

But I believe TSKSR is considered the oldest *extant* ko ryu or at least it is said to be by those of certain organizations concerned with the study of ko ryu within the long history of Japan.

Signed,
Grasshopper

Yes, Mark, I was showing some of my own ignorance. I didn't look for Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu on koryu.com until after I posted.

However, the claim that the "[t]he art is an integral part of the history of Japan and the point of origin for all Japanese martial arts." is a little bit of hyperbole. That's what bothered me about the web site - too much of too much.

Well, this has prompted me to learn a little more about historical koryu, so that can't be a bad thing. If more people were willing to investigate and ask questions of their instructors maybe this kind of school couldn't survive.


Still, nobodies responded to what troubled me most about this site. That is:
Would you study with someone claiming Pol Pot and Idi Amin as clients? Is that actually something to put down as a reference?

Peter

Walker
13th May 2001, 03:21
Call it a certain cannibalistic, necro-cachet.

MarkF
13th May 2001, 11:22
I wasn't at all implying anything. In fact, these are the kind of facts I claim knowledge when the fact is probably more to the nothing side of knowing.

As to these websites, reasons for them are so vast as to raise questions on the validity of budo and proprietary issues themselves. IOW, Ipsa loquatar.

But there is always hope. The site is so bad that perhaps those responsible will be nipping a chunk out of themselves pretty soon. People are beginning to get the message, even if it is only a lesson on building a good budo website. Just posting it here ups the visit numbers, and one infamous "Dr. Dai Soke junidan menkyo kaiden" freak even mentioned that on his now much improved (though just as bad in the content department) website a while back.

While he told his peons to stay away from discussions such this one, he was oh so happy on the inside.
****

The recommendation I have is to drop them like a bad habit, but at the same time, it needs to be aired.

See how the pros and cons get interspersed? There are always the few at which such a website is aimed, and enough to be impressed that someone actually helped genocidal, maniacal people suchs as Pol Pot and/or Idi Amin in getting through a vacation alive.

Besides, if true, why would one want to make this public? Seems to me to be a downright good manner of effecting one's longevity on this planet, especially if it were true.

Mark

PS: I didn't get that from Koryu.com, but they do have good sources which can be backed up and are not afraid to admit to the occasional error, either.

Steve Delaney
13th May 2001, 11:43
Kolschey,

From what I could tell from reading the article, it looked like Balmer has been mixing what he has learned from TSKSR with his own style of shoddy Karate and homespun philosophy.

Seriously dodgy looking!

I saw Balmer's message board a while back. I'll find it and post the URL.


Slan.

Soulend
13th May 2001, 14:12
http://www.katorishintoryu.freeserve.co.uk/PROFILES.htm

"Master Sugino had the title Mejin conferred on him by the emperor and is the only recognised Mejin in Japan."

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that "meijin" is an compliment, not a title. You could say "meijin desu" (that is a master) in reference to someone else, but this is the first time I've seen it used as an official title.

Well, I guess if Idi Amin could award himself 20 lbs of medals, what's a "Meijin" among friends?


-David Craik

-who once had the title Gaijin conferred on him by the owner of a local soba shop in Iwakuni, and was the only recognised Gaijin in that soba shop.

pacocomeron
18th September 2001, 22:25
Days ago I put post in this forum., "Chating no Rensu" in order to try to clarify some commentaries on my person that appeared in post Katori Shinto Ryu.. In that occasion I made mention to the fact that surely it would be the first time and perhaps the last one in which Itook part in a Forum. After reading some commentaries on KSR, of I have to clarify some details again.

First place I will say that in one week I will be with Otake sensei and Soke Iizasa and I will have the opportunity to comment with them all whatever in this forum has been published. The not very good idea that is even coming to my mind is to record it in video tapes (I don't how could I do later to show it to you) in order to desmonstrate and to settle without misunderstandings doubts all these commentaries, although I think it won't be satisfactory for all that seem to force. Soke and the School to admit in its rows to people, students or groups who arose outside the school (don' matter how many time ago) and that now try to have official acknoledgment. In adition, like, I've seen , ther's alway some one ready to foment dialectical "battles". They seem to become some benefits from them

Many people do not know the actual situation of the school, but the always like to be involved in discussions about it forgetting a very important aspect.

They comment for example about if the school is open or closed. The school is not open or closed, simply the school is in Japan. Yes, it seems to be something trivial but they forget what it meens: it is necessary to learn there and under the personal supervision of the Shihan. All this is an insurmountable step for most of which try to be members of the school, but it is logical that this obstacle can be solved of diverse forms (each case is personal). I think, that once surpassed this requirement, the most important one (that modifies all whatever is written in mentioned the forum) must be approached: which is the objective to practice Katori? Why to belong to a tradition so difficult to follow.

Personally I do not recommend anybody to belong to the School if this person does not need to practice this Budô with the necessary intensity. That's the reason it is not possible to practice it by the simple fact to say "I like it" or to consider it like hobby or an exotic activity. As other Budo it is a way that for the foreigners it is more difficult, it is an ascent to a great mountain through the most difficult side and in more complete anonymity. Many people raise this mountain with the best equipment and once they begin the ascent they stop to comment their materials, the views from the ascent, how fast they climb or the technique that they use, forgetting the true reason for ascent. Who reaches the top knows that it will have to do down again and to begin the ascent with another feeling, deeper than the first time and so, over and over again.

When someone reaches "the top" and verifies that everything what they see depends simply on its perception of the things, will feel disappointed or with the sensation of having "finished" . and they will come down boasting of the feat they have made.

All this that I comment is common to all the Budo and very well known by those who practice, but I think it is necessary to remember why the school Katori is so hermetic with the transmission and its correct way to practice

It is not only a political question , influences or prestige of one or othe master.

I always observe the discussions about the situation of the school "outside" Japan or the situation of foreigners., for that reason I feel necessary to clarify that to belong (not only physically) to the school it is necessary to understand (and to accept) that we have a Dojo, a Master , a tradition to follow and a life ahead to carry out this ascent in a personal, singular form.

Everything have to be based on ourselves I do not believe that it is positive pulling the piano towards us (the normal thing is to approach the seat and we ourself the piano).

The Katori school is a meeting point of many people (worldwide) who share and look for similar aims. For that reason we should have to leave the axis remaining in its site and the radits converging to him, so that the wheel will be able to continue turning.

I hope to be able to clarify some doubts that are considered in this forum when I return from Japan and also I don't want my words to be t misinterpreted or manipulated. I think that we should be speak about the school like what it really is: an Intangible Cultural Treasure and who want to enjoy it knows where to go.

fifthchamber
19th September 2001, 15:52
Hello mr. Comeron
I do appreciate that I could not be further from the path that you are aiming the general comments to, however I feel that a total outsiders view on the state of things regarding the Katori Shinto Ryu may be a help...or encouragement at least.
I have always regarded the T.S.K.S.R. as perhaps a pinnacle to achieve to...An aim that I would love to follow up on someday, I do hope to get to Japan but appreciate the difficulty in this...However it is a (possible) dream of mine.
I hold the Katori Shinto Ryu and it's practitioners and masters in high esteem. Because they have not made the attempt to 'publicise' their art. It is there if you have the determination to find it. It is this that contributes perhaps to it's status. And it is this that I feel should not have to be changed to suit a minority or to satisfy people.
The essence of the Ryu as far as a Gaijin like myself can see is that it is entered into not partially, but wholly. The student committing his heart and body to the training and the school, becoming fused with it and it's history. Not taking it and changing it to 'suit' him/her but being made to form themselves into the Ryu. Very different from the large majority of Ryu and Ha that exist presently.
Why should Shihan Otake answer his critics? The school has continued since the 16th century by remaining essentially based on the same principles that it's founder decided to use. Why change to conform or to become more public? It has already been proven that there is no need for this...The Ryu's geneology proves this I feel.
As I said I know little about the whole subject but feel that Shihan Otake and the Ryu generally have acted perfectly so far and hope that they can continue to keep the school as it is, as Shihan Otake, and Soke Lizasa want. What is the point of outsiders arguing about it?
Thanks for the time here...I hope to one day gain studentship at this great Ryu and until then will hold the idea firmly in my heart.
Domo Arigato. (All...)

carl mcclafferty
20th September 2001, 22:53
Paco:

Had a hard time figuring out what you were trying to say in English. Give my best to Otake Sensei and his son anyway.

Carl McClafferty :wave:

Oliver Ryan
8th July 2002, 01:56
Is this ryu taught anywhere in the USA?

Jeff Hamacher
8th July 2002, 02:07
Originally posted by Oliver Ryan
>> Is this ryu taught anywhere in the USA? <<

not legitimately, i'd venture.

John Lindsey
8th July 2002, 04:21
Jeff is right, but there are a lot of illegit things going on in California. :)

George Ledyard
8th July 2002, 06:01
There hasn't been anywhere outside of Japan where you could do Katori Shinto Ryu with legitimate association to the Ryu under Otake Sensei. For some time there have been interviews with Otake Sensei in which he stated that he had no objection "in principle" to the art being atught outside Japan by qualified teachers in close association with headquarters dojo.

This is starting to happen but it is my impression that it has not been generally announced. I am sure that more information will be available fairly soon.

Soulend
8th July 2002, 11:14
I have seen KSR dojo in Holland, Ireland, Italy and Belgium on the web. Nothing in the States though..

Yamantaka
8th July 2002, 12:16
Originally posted by Soulend
I have seen KSR dojo in Holland, Ireland, Italy and Belgium on the web. Nothing in the States though..

YAMANTAKA : I seem to remember that the groups in Europe were composed of students of a group headed by YOSHIO SUGINO SENSEI, who got his authorization from a former headmaster of KSR in Japan. They weren't a part of the main group, headed by RISUKE OHTAKE Sensei (the present headmaster of Katori Shinto Ryu).
AFAIK

Chris Li
8th July 2002, 12:55
Originally posted by Yamantaka


YAMANTAKA : I seem to remember that the groups in Europe were composed of students of a group headed by YOSHIO SUGINO SENSEI, who got his authorization from a former headmaster of KSR in Japan. They weren't a part of the main group, headed by RISUKE OHTAKE Sensei (the present headmaster of Katori Shinto Ryu).
AFAIK

As I understand these things, the permission was extended only to the elder Sugino, and expired upon his death. I believe that the position of Otake is that if they wish to continue to train they must make keppan (blood seal) with the Katori hombu (actually with the soke, not Otake, if I understand correctly). There is also the (now somewhat heretic, if what I hear is accurate) line from Tetsutaka Sugawara, who also has many students abroad including, IIRC, someone in California. Anyway, even in Japan not everyone training in Katori is tied to Otake, although those people (some of whom are quite good) may or may not be "legitimate" depending upon how you look at it and who you talk to.

Doesn't Dan Harden (who frequents these boards) teach Katori somewhere in the wilds of Massachusetts?

Best,

Chris

Adam Young
8th July 2002, 16:14
Wow, this topic is like the zombies in "Return of the Living Dead."

I am sure that a search of the e-budo archives will turn up oodles of stuff on "legitimacy" and TSKSR. One can also try searching the Iaido-L archives, as I know for sure that the topic has been discussed on multiple occasions.

To my limited knowledge, there are no current students of Otake sensei who have been given permission to teach in the U.S. There are students of his out here (most of whom are, with the exception of me, quite good), but they haven't set up shop teaching TSKSR.

There are others, however, who do teach TSKSR. Mark Jones is the guy in California (teaches out in Napa, I think). I recall a group in KC who train as well. I don't know of others, but there very well may be.

The whole authenticity thing is actually played out, and is starting to get as boring as the ninjutsu X-kan sniping that goes on. If you want to be absolutely, positively sure, fly to Japan, talk to Otake sensei and take the keppan in Narita. If not, then there may be doubts in your own mind.

However, if you like what you do, and it makes you happy, who gives a s**t otherwise. I don't.

Cheers,

Todd Schweinhart
8th July 2002, 23:27
Hey,

I am sure that if you guys search hard enough you will find someone in the US that is actually licensed to teach this ryu. Usually, the legit people don't advertise quite as much as the others. There have been some really great things happening in the US as far as Koryu is concerned. If you really want to study this Koryu, or any other, it may require you to give up a lot of things and to actually delve into the ryu. Good luck in your search!
Best,
Todd Schweinhart
Louisville KY

Jeff Hamacher
9th July 2002, 00:49
thank you, Adam, for stepping in. might as well close this thread now ...:D there are at least a few online articles that explain quite clearly how permission to teach a koryu art is granted and maintained, in addition to a stack of E-Budo threads where the "Magical Mystical TSKSR" topic has been beaten to death. it's almost as crazy as the perpetual Daito-ryu debate!:D

in some cases, Todd, it's not a matter of searching harder, because there is no network of licensed teachers inside or outside japan; it's a "no-other-options" issue of getting permission of a school's current headmaster or head instructor to train under them directly.

PS to answer your PM, Adam, yes. i train with Shinohara-sensei in Suwa, Nagano. perhaps we'll see you over here in october for grading?

Chris Li
9th July 2002, 00:56
Originally posted by Jeff Hamacher
in some cases, Todd, it's not a matter of searching harder, because there is no network of licensed teachers inside or outside japan; it's a "no-other-options" issue of getting permission of a school's current headmaster or head instructor to train under them directly.

All depends on what you're looking for. If you want to be a member of the ryu (secret decoder ring and all :) ) than you need to go to Otake. If you just want to train in the art then there are other avenues available.

Otake's in a difficult postition because he's attempting to preserve an undiluted lineage with all practice tied to the hombu dojo. Katori is still small enough that there's a chance that he might actually succeed, but I wonder if even now it's a little too late.

Best,

Chris

Jeff Hamacher
9th July 2002, 01:11
Originally posted by Chris Li
>> All depends on what you're looking for. If you want to be a member of the ryu ... than you need to go to Otake. If you just want to train in the art then there are other avenues available. <<

actually, Chris, my comments were not in reference to TSKSR specifically, but rather what i've read about the way that some koryu are "managed" by their headmasters. unfortunately, i don't have concrete examples at my fingertips, and perhaps my impression of what i read is incorrect.

on the other hand, the action you suggest above (training through channels not currently recognized/authorized by the headmaster or Otake-sensei) seems to fly in the face of what people such as Dr. Friday have to say on the subject of "gray area" koryu training. now, i realize that the situation in TSKSR is very gray, depending upon who you hear it from, and again i don't wish to make any pronouncements on that art in particular because i just don't have authoritative information. based on what i've read, though, i have a hard time agreeing completely with your position stated above.

Chris Li
9th July 2002, 01:47
Originally posted by Jeff Hamacher
on the other hand, the action you suggest above (training through channels not currently recognized/authorized by the headmaster or Otake-sensei) seems to fly in the face of what people such as Dr. Friday have to say on the subject of "gray area" koryu training. now, i realize that the situation in TSKSR is very gray, depending upon who you hear it from, and again i don't wish to make any pronouncements on that art in particular because i just don't have authoritative information. based on what i've read, though, i have a hard time agreeing completely with your position stated above.

Not all that gray, there's only one way into the ryu, and that's through Otake. However, there are at least three other lines practicing Katori and they each have spawned students and teachers of their own. Those teachers are not part of the official lineage, so if that's important then that may make a difference.

It's not really a "position", I was just trying to summarize the situation.

For example, there's only one "official" lineage in Christianity, the papal lineage in the Catholic Church. For many people that's important, for many other people it's not (please, no religious arguments, it's just a general example). Each to their own :) .

Best,

Chris

Jeff Hamacher
9th July 2002, 02:35
Originally posted by Chris Li
>> Not all that gray, there's only one way into the ryu, and that's through Otake. However, there are at least three other lines practicing Katori and they each have spawned students and teachers of their own. Those teachers are not part of the official lineage, so if that's important then that may make a difference. <<

if you take this article (http://koryu.com/library/kfriday1.html) at face value, then it makes all the difference in the world. according this line of thinking, anyone who isn't training under Otake-sensei cannot claim, in good faith, to be training in or teaching TSKSR.

>> For example, there's only one "official" lineage in Christianity, the papal lineage in the Catholic Church. For many people that's important, for many other people it's not ... <<

but those who practise christianity outside of the authority of the pope do not claim to be Roman Catholics, do they? no, they refer to themselves as believers of whatever christian sect they claim membership in. i can see what you're driving at, but i don't agree that it makes for a particularly good analogy. (like Chris, i'm not trying to invite religious debate here; if either one of us has missed a fundamental truth germane to the current topic, though, i'd be happy to get correction)

Chris Li
9th July 2002, 03:24
Originally posted by Jeff Hamacher
Originally posted by Chris Li
>> Not all that gray, there's only one way into the ryu, and that's through Otake. However, there are at least three other lines practicing Katori and they each have spawned students and teachers of their own. Those teachers are not part of the official lineage, so if that's important then that may make a difference. <<

if you take this article (http://koryu.com/library/kfriday1.html) at face value, then it makes all the difference in the world. according this line of thinking, anyone who isn't training under Otake-sensei cannot claim, in good faith, to be training in or teaching TSKSR.

That's why I said (in the first post) that it depends on who you talk to :).


Originally posted by Jeff Hamacher
>> For example, there's only one "official" lineage in Christianity, the papal lineage in the Catholic Church. For many people that's important, for many other people it's not ... <<

but those who practise christianity outside of the authority of the pope do not claim to be Roman Catholics, do they? no, they refer to themselves as believers of whatever christian sect they claim membership in. i can see what you're driving at, but i don't agree that it makes for a particularly good analogy. (like Chris, i'm not trying to invite religious debate here; if either one of us has missed a fundamental truth germane to the current topic, though, i'd be happy to get correction)

Yes, although they everybody calls themselves "christians". I'm really not arguing about who's "legitimate" and who's not. As I said before, I'm just summarizing the situation. The fact is, there are several Katori groups (ie groups practicing the same techniques and calling themselves by the same name) not connected to Otake - whether that bothers anyone is up to the individual, IMO.

Best,

Chris

Jeff Hamacher
9th July 2002, 04:26
Originally posted by Chris Li
>> Yes, although everybody [of that faith] calls themselves "christians". <<

the overarching term "christian" is further distinguished by the name of the particular sect, in much the same way that such-and-such a -ryu might be more specifically defined by the term -ha. as i understand it, any exponent who does not maintain recognized ties with their school of "origin", so to speak, probably shouldn't be appropriating the exact name of that tradition to label their current activities of teaching or training. reminds me a bit of Sarah Ferguson continuing to use her royal title as part of her business's marketing campaign in spite of the fact that she's divorced her royal former husband.

>> whether that bothers anyone is up to the individual, IMO. <<

true enough. and just about exhausts the common ground we share on this issue.:) i'll look forward to your further responses or comments, although as Adam suggests, i don't know if anybody else at E-Budo really cares to read our dead horse flogging!

Chris Li
9th July 2002, 04:42
Originally posted by Jeff Hamacher
Originally posted by Chris Li
>> Yes, although everybody [of that faith] calls themselves "christians". <<

the overarching term "christian" is further distinguished by the name of the particular sect, in much the same way that such-and-such a -ryu might be more specifically defined by the term -ha. as i understand it, any exponent who does not maintain recognized ties with their school of "origin", so to speak, probably shouldn't be appropriating the exact name of that tradition to label their current activities of teaching or training. reminds me a bit of Sarah Ferguson continuing to use her royal title as part of her business's marketing campaign in spite of the fact that she's divorced her royal former husband.

But it wasn't always that way - at one time "christian" meant one thing and one thing only and then things split apart. The question is whether Katori will similarly become a generic term for schools with some root in that tradition or not. It doesn't matter much to me one way or the other. From what I can tell Otake seems to want to stem that trend, I'm just not sure that he's in time to do so.

Best,

Chris

Jeff Hamacher
9th July 2002, 07:31
Originally posted by Chris Li
>> But it wasn't always that way - at one time "christian" meant one thing and one thing only and then things split apart. <<

true enough, but when new sects decided to establish themselves and split from the Roman papacy, they didn't try to present themselves as Roman Catholics. they chose to reject some of what the Roman Catholic church establishment taught, maintain other tenets of belief found in christianity, and pursue their faith under a new banner. there's a slightly different example of a split in the RC church: the rival papacy which was established in Avignon, France. for a time, you had two "popes", each insisting that theirs was the true seat of the Catholic church and declaring their rival "excommunicated"! sounds remotely similar to the Daito-ryu wrangling. regardless, i still don't think that either analogy is a fair representation of the goings-on in TSKSR.

>> The question is whether Katori will similarly become a generic term for schools with some root in that tradition or not. (...) From what I can tell Otake seems to want to stem that trend, I'm just not sure that he's in time to do so.

if you accept the point of view that control over the name and technical content of a koryu art rests solely with the current headmaster, your analysis above of current trends is moot: people who don't have the current headmaster's imprimatur should, from a moral standpoint, respect the headmaster's absolute authority, in spite of the fact that they have no legal backing for their claims to such "intellectual property". if you reject that point of view and think that there's more latitude in the way that koryu arts can or should be disseminated, then your proposition seems reasonable, even if i don't happen to agree.

Chris Li
9th July 2002, 07:55
Originally posted by Jeff Hamacher
if you accept the point of view that control over the name and technical content of a koryu art rests solely with the current headmaster, your analysis above of current trends is moot: people who don't have the current headmaster's imprimatur should, from a moral standpoint, respect the headmaster's absolute authority, in spite of the fact that they have no legal backing for their claims to such "intellectual property". if you reject that point of view and think that there's more latitude in the way that koryu arts can or should be disseminated, then your proposition seems reasonable, even if i don't happen to agree.

All true, except for the point that I'm not making any kind of proposition. The fact is there are several different groups practicing what they call Katori. Whether that's right or wrong, or whether one group is or ought to be more legitimate than the others I have no idea - it's really not my problem.

Best,

Chris

Jeff Hamacher
9th July 2002, 08:42
Originally posted by Chris Li
>> All true, except for the point that I'm not making any kind of proposition. <<

sorry if i've been giving you the impression that i believe you have a personal stake in this exchange, specifically in reference to TSKSR. i realize you don't and neither do i. i suppose i don't even have a stake in the point of view that i'm essentially reporting on, i.e. "the headmaster is always right".

when i say you make a proposition, i mean that you present something other than a perfectly neutral perspective: a very broad view of how headmasters of koryu arts and their respective students might act, and in one case how they are actually training in and teaching their tradition. the perspective that my arguments represent is also not neutral; it is in fact a very narrow view of how a headmaster should have absolute control over the art which has been entrusted to them, and it admits no other possibilities.

i grant you that the modern world of martial arts training may bring further changes to the dissemination of these traditions, and perhaps the autocratic control which headmasters exert over certain arts will dissolve. that reality, however, would probably fail to preserve aspects of the teaching of koryu arts, aspects which i can't help but feel should be maintained.

Chris Li
9th July 2002, 08:53
Originally posted by Jeff Hamacher
sorry if i've been giving you the impression that i believe you have a personal stake in this exchange, specifically in reference to TSKSR. i realize you don't and neither do i. i suppose i don't even have a stake in the point of view that i'm essentially reporting on, i.e. "the headmaster is always right".

I don't disagree. People ought to have a right to create any art they like and then control the distribution of that art (mainly the name these days, unless you keep things super-secret).

Right or wrong, though, it's pretty hard to put the genie back in the bottle, and the Katori genie has been loose for more than a few years. If it were me, I'd change the name. Will the non-Otake branches change the name in order to appease the mainline? Remains to be seen, but my hunch is not.

Best,

Chris

PRehse
9th July 2002, 09:10
Of course we can always bring in the Orthodox Christians where the pope in Rome was seen as first amoung equals until the influence of secular medieval fiefs and kings came into play.

The roman pope says I rule, the others said not.

Dave Lowry
9th July 2002, 14:28
All,
I am not a member of Katori Shinto ryu and am not a spokesman for them, but I have visited Otake sensei's dojo in Narita and I do know some members of the ryu and I am aware of the recent developments regarding the teaching of the ryu outside Japan. I am passing this information along for the information of those who are interested.

Mr. Phil Relnick, of the Seattle area, has been requested in writing by both the Soke of KSR and Otake sensei to represent KSR in the US. Relnick has a kyoshi-menkyo in the ryu. He is the only person given teaching authority in the United States. This authority does not extend to anyone else in the United States, regardless of their having taken a keppan oath from Otake sensei or of their experience.

Otake sensei is the only person in Katori Shinto ryu who has the authority to accept a keppan from any new KSR practitioner, an authority granted him by the Soke. Anyone wishing to be fully recognised by the ryu must go to Japan to take this keppan.

Otake sensei has stated that he will not accept anyone from the United States as a member of KSR without an introduction from Relnick.

Cordially,

Adam Young
9th July 2002, 15:10
Mr. Phil Relnick, of the Seattle area, has been requested in writing by both the Soke of KSR and Otake sensei to represent KSR in the US. Well, I stand corrected. I had heard about this from some of my friends in the ryu, but was not sure whether or not it had been put into effect.

Shows how out of the loop I am. Man, I've gotta get back to Japan.

George Ledyard
9th July 2002, 22:57
Originally posted by Dave Lowry
All,
I am not a member of Katori Shinto ryu and am not a spokesman for them, but I have visited Otake sensei's dojo in Narita and I do know some members of the ryu and I am aware of the recent developments regarding the teaching of the ryu outside Japan. I am passing this information along for the information of those who are interested.

Mr. Phil Relnick, of the Seattle area, has been requested in writing by both the Soke of KSR and Otake sensei to represent KSR in the US. Relnick has a kyoshi-menkyo in the ryu. He is the only person given teaching authority in the United States. This authority does not extend to anyone else in the United States, regardless of their having taken a keppan oath from Otake sensei or of their experience.

Otake sensei is the only person in Katori Shinto ryu who has the authority to accept a keppan from any new KSR practitioner, an authority granted him by the Soke. Anyone wishing to be fully recognised by the ryu must go to Japan to take this keppan.

Otake sensei has stated that he will not accept anyone from the United States as a member of KSR without an introduction from Relnick.

Cordially,

Well, now that someone else has said it, yes, Relnick Sensei is now teaching. Several of my Aikido students are training with him but I didn't want to say anything since I am not a member of the group. Relnick Sensei told me it wasn't a secret but they weren't trying to go out of their way to publicize it either. He wanted the word to get out "naturally" which I guess now includes E-budo and the Internet.

10th July 2002, 01:45
Hiya George,

And a better guy could not have been selected for the job, IMHO. Several of my close friends are presently training with Relnick Sensei. He's most likely the only guy in the US properly equipped for such a position of responsability.

I wish him my best.

George Ledyard
10th July 2002, 05:20
Originally posted by Toby Threadgill
Hiya George,

And a better guy could not have been selected for the job, IMHO. Several of my close friends are presently training with Relnick Sensei. He's most likely the only guy in the US properly equipped for such a position of responsability.

I wish him my best.

Hi Toby!
Yeah, I am jealous. Between my own training and my family responsibilities I simply do not have the time to take on a new art. Otherwise I'd be on his doorstep begging to be accepted. Won't be too long before my own students will be able to take me with a sword with all the training they are getting from Relnick Sensei. Oh well. I'm just not in my twenties any more.

Chuck Clark
10th July 2002, 06:04
Hey George,

Greetings and don't feel like the Lone Ranger. Many of my students, as well as my son, Aaron are now training with Relnick-sensei in Katori Shinto Ryu as well as Shinto Muso Ryu jo. (One of my guys recently took keppan with Otake-sensei.)

I would love to be in my twenties again and join the practice, but alas... I have a very full plate.

As you know, I was just visiting with Relnick-sensei a few days ago (sorry again that I didn't take time for a visit with you) and I was impressed with your guys' practice in both aiki and sword. (Why is youth wasted on the young???)

I'll have your tapes in the mail in a couple of days.

Regards,

Kit LeBlanc
10th July 2002, 16:30
A personal anecdote:

A few years ago I was in Seattle with one of my partners in crime. We were there to do a koryu demo for a community center, or community college type place (I forget).

Our instructor was not able to be present, and my partner and I were VERY junior members of the school. We met Relnick sensei the year before at his Woodinville dojo kagami biraki, and talked with him briefly while enjoying the hospitality of his dojo.

So we came walking in to the center and see Relnick sensei with his wife Nobuko sitting at a booth of her flower arrangements. We went over to pay our respects and to connect with the only faces we recognized in the place. We are hard headed boys, and not well schooled in proper Japanese etiquette in these matters...we knew to go pay our respects but not how to do it "right." So we went over and said "Hey, Phil!"

He got up and did what I can only describe as taking us under his wing. We talked for quite some time, then went over to the demonstration floor and sat down, each of us flanking him. I felt kind of strange, because here we were, two newbies, sitting and talking, joking, laughing with this man who has more experience in budo than I have on earth.

Several "big name" martial arts people from Seattle (some of whom I didn't know but recognized)came over at different times to pay respects and share some words with the man, and this was really weird, too. Why was it weird? Because it felt so comfortable sitting there jawing with him. It was like we were "the boys" and we were all sitting there having a good time, talking about something we loved. Not a menkyo kaiden holder, above the common flock, keeper of eternal mysteries type guy, but....just a guy that loves budo, has strong opinions on it, and liked talking about it with a coupla punks more comfortable at a submission wrestling club than a koryu demo.

A class act all the way. His students, several of whom are friends, are very lucky.

Dan Harden
10th July 2002, 18:11
Doesn't Dan Harden (who frequents these boards) teach Katori somewhere in the wilds of Massachusetts?

Best,

Chris


Hi Chris
Please be careful saying that OK? My opinions on the method of dissemination regarding TSKSR have been made known and are well represented in these pages in past threads. And they run counter to my own situation. In short, I am of the opinion that if you want to do it, go to Japan. If Mr. Relnick is indeed going to be disseminating the art in the U. S -I think that is great news. I wish him great success.
As for the other people who have been booted- I don’t know what to say. Perhaps calling it by another name would be the thing to do-thus leaving Phil an open field for dissemination without confusion.
I earnestly hope that people are sensitive to the family’s hesitation in their first attempt here. We all need to help out in keeping things clear.
Won’t it be swell if we were found to be sincere, not for profit, and earnest in our pursuit.

As for me Chris I do not talk about my training in the art much at all. Having been taken under the wing of a fellow stuck here in the U.S for a while, I fell in love with it and have been sharing what I know with some students of mine for many years now- with no fee and no ranking or recognition offered. No one who knows me has been led astray, taken advantage of, nor lied to.
That is it and that is all.
I can only hope it is considered honest and above-board for that was my intent.
As for telling people I teach it? I have routinely denied knowing the art in public. On occasions I have been asked face to face where my weapons came from, if I know the Kata and have said "No I don't." Although at other times I have been asked to demonstrate and I did. If that sounds confusing then I must apologize for it is somewhat unresolved still in my own mind
It is a struggle to know what I know and love it and want to practice-but I would not waiver from respecting the integrity and good name of the family who owns the name. In the fullness of time I just may call what I do by another name-although twice now (to my embarassment) upon being demonstrated the Kata were immediately recognized for what they were. I couldn’t bear to be included among those attempting to profit from someone else’s good name-therefore I would never demonstrate again. I practice quietly, un-advertised in the country.

Cheers
Dan

SecretAgentMan
10th July 2002, 19:54
Doesn't Mr. Phil Relnick also teach Shinto Muso-ryu jodo and is menkyo kaiden? I seem to remember reading some of his newsletters some time ago.

Also, doesn't he have a son that practices KSR? I also remember hearing somewhere about him being very skilled in the sword.

Thanks for your attention.

By the way, I enjoy your articles, posts, insights, etc. I have your book "Sword and Brush" in my collection, and enjoyed it also.

Kip Brockett
www.MartialDirect.com (http://www.martialdirect.com)
"martial arts directory,
interviews, articles, and more"

SecretAgentMan
10th July 2002, 20:07
Sorry! I answered my own question about Mr. Relnick by going to koryu.com.

It is good news to hear that there will be an extention of KSR in the States. Do you know if Mr. Relnick will be holding training camps on KSR and would anyone be welcome? Even if from one of "rogue" groups? :)

Kip Brockett
www.MartialDirect.com (http://www.martialdirect.com)
"martial arts directory,
interviews, articles, and more"

Chris Li
10th July 2002, 22:34
Originally posted by Dan Harden
Please be careful saying that OK? My opinions on the method of dissemination regarding TSKSR have been made known and are well represented in these pages in past threads. And they run counter to my own situation. In short, I am of the opinion that if you want to do it, go to Japan. If Mr. Relnick is indeed going to be disseminating the art in the U. S -I think that is great news. I wish him great success.

Sorry about that, I wouldn't have mentioned it except that I know that it's been mentioned in public forums before.




As for the other people who have been booted- I don’t know what to say. Perhaps calling it by another name would be the thing to do-thus leaving Phil an open field for dissemination without confusion.

As I said, that's what I would do, but my hunch is that there will continue to be non-Otake groups teaching under the same name, for better or worse.

Best,

Chris

gmellis
11th July 2002, 02:18
Adam,
The clock is surely ticking, and before you know it you'll be back in Tokyo and taking the Keisei to Narita along with yours truly. The picture of two hairy white boys on the train lugging bags DEFINITELY not carrying golf clubs and the looks of astonishment on people's' faces as they clutch their children to their breasts makes me giggle. Keeheehee! Anyway. We will be sure not to ease up on you in practice so you can quickly get back those abs and buns of steel you are famous for, you rock-solid beefcake you.
As for this topic, I agree with Adam. The dead horse has not only been flogged into a fine powder, it has been whipped into glue and mass transported to a store near you forthe low low price of $3.99. If you wanna do TSKSR somewhere not recognized, no one here is gonna burst your bubble. Enjoy it, life is short. But unless you come to Japan and master (relatively speaking) the language, you won't get to hear all the nifty stories and lore, and learn the kuden in it original intended language. There's alot to say for coming here, if one wants to get merely beyond the forms.

SecretAgentMan
11th July 2002, 19:38
"two hairy white boys" in dresses (uh, sorry, I mean hakama) swinging sticks... Now that's a scary image!!! :)

How are you Greg? Hope all is well.

Question for you:

How would someone from one of the unauthorized factions be accepted by Otake Sensei?

Kip Brockett
www.MartialDirect.com (http://www.martialdirect.com)
"martial arts directory,
interviews, articles, and more"

gmellis
12th July 2002, 03:28
Hi Kip!
Sorry, but I'm not really at liberty to discuss the entrance requirements or any other matters of the school on a bulletin board or by personal e-mail, as I am not in an official capacity as a representative to the outside world for the school or anything, just a practicing grunt like the rest. I hope you understand. Nice homepage by the way. Coming together nicely I see. Aw need to make me one o' them there Webby pagey thingies me self.

SecretAgentMan
12th July 2002, 20:42
I understand completely Greg. Plus... I know how you are!

I went back to try and correct a typo in a previous message and it said that you can't edit past 15 minutes. That was probably instituted so we can keep your posts on here!

Thanks for the compliment on the site.

What I want to know is when will we be able to buy a series of video instructionals and earn our black belt in Katori Shinto Ryu? Is anything like that in the works? :)

Kip Brockett
www.MartialDirect.com (http://www.martialdirect.com)
"martial arts directory,
interviews, articles, and more"

Phil Farmer
22nd July 2002, 17:18
Someone may have addressed this and if so, accept my appologies. I have visited in Darrell Craig's dojo in Houston, Texas and he told me that he has people teaching KSR in his dojo. He demonstrated some of the kata and they are recognizeable as KSR kata. I only know this because our Aikido style, Yoseikan, has KSR as its foundation for our kobudo work, though Minoru Mochizuki changed some of the kata and other movements to reflect his own opinions of how things should be done. Big surprise from a Japanese martial artist, huh.

Óscar Recio
23rd July 2002, 14:50
Hi everybody,
In Spain are Carmelo Rios and Francisco Comeron, both certified students of TSKSR. Unfortunately they don´t teach TSKSR; Carmelo teach Aikido and Shintaido, in a few seminars showed a few Kata with bokken, iaito, naginata and kodachi...extremely difficult but beautiful.
Will be fantastic to enjoy a formal TSKSR seminar but...will be waiting.
Óscar Recio

dsnoopy
29th July 2002, 11:57
Hello everybody!
I practice Katori Sinto ru for 8 years, and my Teacher is Sugavara sensei. He showed all the techniques of kenjutsu, iaijutsu, battojutsu, naginatajutsu, bojutsu, sojutsu, kodatijutsu, riotojutsu. But in Mokuroku it says, that there are 2 more departments: Gokui Hichijo no Naginata è Gogyo no Bo. But as I have been looking the recordings with Otake sensei, Sugavara sensei and Sugino sensei, I have never seen such techniques. Does anyone have these recordings, or are these techniques lost?
:(

29th July 2002, 13:22
Why? Are you planning on studying by video tape?
If you have been studying for 8 years why don't you just ask your teacher to show them to you?

dsnoopy
29th July 2002, 13:36
Sugavara, said that this part is almost lost, and even as he was sdudying Sensei's dodse Otake, they hardly studied these kata.
:(

29th July 2002, 14:05
Your teacher's name is not SugaVara but rather SugaWara with a W not a V.

Since you are studying with Sugawara does that mean you are in Japan?

John Lindsey
29th July 2002, 18:14
Robert, I think our friend is in Russia.

And please Mr. dsnoopy, make sure you sign your full name to your messages.

dsnoopy
30th July 2002, 07:56
My name is Denis Shelest. I have 2-nd dan aikido, and I am engaged Katori Shinto ryu. I live in Russia. Sugawara sensei comes to Russia and Finland.

El Guapo-san
20th May 2003, 23:44
I'll throw this out and see where it goes.

What is the general opinion on Katori Shinto Ryu outside of Japan? There's one school here in Amsterdam I've been meaning to have a look at. Curious what folks have to say.

J. Vlach, Amsterdam

kaishaku
21st May 2003, 19:50
Dear Mr J. Vlach

It's tough to provide an **informed** opinion without more information, especially concerning who is in charge of the school to which you refer.

However, I'm curious, is this school operated by Erik Louw?

Regards,

Frederick D. Smith

El Guapo-san
22nd May 2003, 06:59
I just looked at their website and yup. It´s just a bike ride down the canal. They seem to have a good rep......

J. Vlach, Amsterdam

gmellis
22nd May 2003, 08:19
El Guapo-san (Where is that from; sounds familiar)
Would you know the name of the teacher or head of that school by the way? Their FULL name would be great.

paolo_italy
22nd May 2003, 14:11
hi there,
as far as I know, they have a very good reputation, at least the school. I knew some italian reps long ago, they were really well skilled (even if too much aikido-like).
imho it's worth a bike ride LOL :D
don't know if they accept spectators (I doubt).
i know TSKSR organizes seminars with japanese shihans that are really interesting... btw i have an old footage with sugino sensei and otake sensei, not bad that guys :D
bye

gmellis
22nd May 2003, 14:38
Paolo,
Are you saying you have video footage of Otake Sensei TOGETHER WITH Sugino Sensei in the same location? Or that you have video of Otake Sensei and video of Sugino Sensei, separately?

El Guapo-san
22nd May 2003, 15:44
El Guapo is from the Three Amigos film. The Katori Shinto school here in Amsterdam is headed by Erik Louw. I was curious more about their rep in Europe. I've got a French copy of the Sword & Diety book. Seemed like worth a look.

J. Vlach, Amsterdam

paolo_italy
22nd May 2003, 16:35
Originally posted by gmellis
Paolo,
Are you saying you have video footage of Otake Sensei TOGETHER WITH Sugino Sensei in the same location? Or that you have video of Otake Sensei and video of Sugino Sensei, separately?

hello,

It's one video, I don't remember whether they work together (in the same scenes) or in different stages (meaning it could be a mix of two different footages). Let me check this (italian) evening an I let you know tomorrow...

cheers...

O'Neill
22nd May 2003, 17:00
You rarely hear these men mentioned in one sentence, did they get along? Was there a rift between them?

kaishaku
22nd May 2003, 20:41
Originally posted by El Guapo-san
El Guapo is from the Three Amigos film. The Katori Shinto school here in Amsterdam is headed by Erik Louw. I was curious more about their rep in Europe. I've got a French copy of the Sword & Diety book. Seemed like worth a look.

J. Vlach, Amsterdam

Mr. Vlach

I cannot comment on Katori Shinto Ryu since I am not an exponent of that art. I have met some Louw Sensei's students and was impressed by their depth of knowledge, etiquette and apparent skill level, but I am not a swordsman.

One of my colleagues in Europe is a representative of Louw Sensei and he's the source of the following information:

Erik Louw Sensei was born on 21 March 1956 in The Hague, but has been living and working in Amsterdam for many years now. Besides a ‘menkyo chuden’ in KSR he also holds the rank of 5th Dan aikido in the aikikai. Since his youth he has practised several martial arts.

Louw Sensei has travelled to Japan several times to train with various teachers. Of all European instructors he was the first European student in the Sugino Dojo, where he was taught by Sugino Yoshio Sensei.

He regularly organises training sessions in Belgium, Italy, Denmark and South-Africa. The different dojos under his leadership are not brought together into an formal organisation.

Given the information above, it's apears to be a "good dojo." with respect to its reputation and KSR's reputation outside of Japan in general, you would need to seek the opinion of those KSR exponents in Japan.

Regards,

Frederick D. Smith

ulvulv
24th May 2003, 18:38
One question regarting tskr. What different titles are given to the instructors, from soke? What is the ladder? menkyo kaiden- mokuroku etc.. How was it originally structured?

paolo_italy
28th May 2003, 10:15
Originally posted by gmellis
Paolo,
Are you saying you have video footage of Otake Sensei TOGETHER WITH Sugino Sensei in the same location? Or that you have video of Otake Sensei and video of Sugino Sensei, separately?

Hello gmellis,

I've checked the video: there are two separate footages on one suppurt. Otake Sensei and Sugino Sensei never appear together on my references.

Bye,

gmellis
28th May 2003, 10:31
Paolo,
Thanks alot, I really appreciate your checking that detail for me.

Martyn van Halm
10th August 2003, 15:41
Originally posted by ulvulv
One question regarting tskr. What different titles are given to the instructors, from soke? What is the ladder? menkyo kaiden- mokuroku etc.. How was it originally structured?

The order is:
Junior, Senior, Kirikami, Mokuroku, Menkyo, [Menkyo] Kaiden.

I've never encountered a 'soke'. Even teachers like Hatakeyama Goro [menkyo kaiden/9th Dan] is referred to as 'sensei'. Not 'shihan' or other titles commonly used in the US.

MarkF
11th August 2003, 12:04
Well, there is a soke in TSKSR, he is in Japan, and probably has the longest, or one of the longest unbroken lines in any ryu (Kashima shinryu is probably close). Other than one person recently graded so as to represent the ryu in North America, it is the only true school of Katori Shinto ryu. Any others, unless soke or the head instructor has recognized and permission given to teach TSKSR to others with whom I'm not familiar, it is probably the one true lineage of any ryu still unbroken over this length of time.

I don't like to use the term soke as it has been so misused that it is almost embarrassing to refer to anyone with it, he exists and he is there.

No disrespect intended to others who have taken up their version of KSR, I just can't seem to find anyone else qualified to teach this system (and I don't mean knowing the technique, I mean licensed to teach by the ryu and the soke).


Mark

Martyn van Halm
11th August 2003, 17:48
Originally posted by MarkF
Well, there is a soke in TSKSR, he is in Japan, and probably has the longest, or one of the longest unbroken lines in any ryu (Kashima shinryu is probably close).
I know. I said I never 'encountered' a soke, not that there was no 'soke'.

Richard Stein
19th August 2004, 10:28
I have done some searches and understand that there are many opinions on this subject. I am looking for a legitimate Koryu in or near Switzerland. Yukihiro Sugino, will be visiting here for a week long seminar. Apart from this type of Katori Shinto Ryu, i cant seem to find anything except a Kashima Shinryu dojo in Frankfurt, Germany.
With all the conflicting issues surrounding Katori Shinto Ryu, im a little hesitant about attending Yukihiro Sugino's seminar. Although on the flyer, for the seminar, it states that Mr. Yukihiro Sugino is a 9th Dan, menkyo kaiden..
Anyone from Europe or the US that can help?

Andrei Arefiev
19th August 2004, 11:38
Originally posted by Richard Stein
I am looking for a legitimate Koryu in or near Switzerland.

Richard,

Are you in Zurich? There is iaido (ZNKR and Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryu) there at the Zurich Budokan (http://www.ifh.ee.ethz.ch/~ballisti/iaido/budokan.html). But if you are willing to travel, check out the European Jodo Federation (http://www.fej.ch). Pascal Krieger is teaching Shinto Muso-ryu in Geneva, and as far as I remember, there are groups in some other towns.

Best regards,

Richard Stein
19th August 2004, 11:47
Andrei, I know of Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryu in Basel and Zürich but i was looking for a more complete system(Ken Jutsu, Bo Jutsu, Jujutsu, etc..) such as Katori Shinto Ryu and Kashima Shinryu. I travel from Zurich to Geneva weekly, so maybe i should check Shinto muso Ryu.
Thanks and if you know of any more ideas please let me know.
Regards

Arman
20th August 2004, 02:37
There is a quiet, but nevertheless strong, controversy in the TSKSR community regarding Mr. Sugino. If you check the archives in this and the sword forum, I think you will find the gist of the issue, and then you can decide for yourself.

Regards,
Arman Partamian

Chuck.Gordon
20th August 2004, 09:16
Originally posted by Richard Stein
Andrei, I know of Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryu in Basel and Zürich but i was looking for a more complete system(Ken Jutsu, Bo Jutsu, Jujutsu, etc..) such as Katori Shinto Ryu and Kashima Shinryu. I travel from Zurich to Geneva weekly, so maybe i should check Shinto muso Ryu.

SMR does include a variety of sub-styles (sword, kusarigama, etc). Might fit your needs. The Krieger folks are highly regarded, too.

The Kashima Shinryu folks in Frankfurt are highly recommended by Karl Friday (menkyo kaidan, KSR USA), but I haven't had opportunity to play with them personally. Some correspondence I've had has been friendly and informative.

If you ever get over to the hinterlands of Bavaria, get in touch. Love to have you visit and train with us.

Chuck

Richard Stein
20th August 2004, 09:46
Thanks Cuck! I decided to check both out. I could make it to more training if i went the route of Mr. Krieger and his Dojo. Somehow im very interested in Kashima Shinryu but would not be able to make it too often since its in Frankfurt....

ulvulv
26th August 2004, 10:30
Originally posted by Richard Stein
I have done some searches and understand that there are many opinions on this subject. I am looking for a legitimate Koryu in or near Switzerland. Yukihiro Sugino, will be visiting here for a week long seminar. Apart from this type of Katori Shinto Ryu, i cant seem to find anything except a Kashima Shinryu dojo in Frankfurt, Germany.
With all the conflicting issues surrounding Katori Shinto Ryu, im a little hesitant about attending Yukihiro Sugino's seminar. Although on the flyer, for the seminar, it states that Mr. Yukihiro Sugino is a 9th Dan, menkyo kaiden..
Anyone from Europe or the US that can help?

If I were you, I would go the seminar and use my own judgement if continued training with this teacher is a path worth pursuing. It aint no delusive Mcdojo character who runs the seminar, he has been practising with his father, the late Sugino sensei, for his whole life. You are lucky to have the opportunity to practise with such a sincere, humble and knowledgable teacher.

But if I had the opportunity to do shindo muso ryu jodo under the tutelage of Mr Krieger, I would not hesitate in my choice. Get down to it! ;)

gmellis
27th August 2004, 04:53
If I were you, I would read previous threads regarding the KSR to understand exactly what the fuss with Son-of-Sugino is, and after having searched your conscience for an answer, THEN decide to go to the seminar or not, rather than going to the seminar to begin with and then basing your ethical decision on the technical skill of any participants. The reason being that the "issues" at stake do not hinge on the sincereity, humbleness or knowledege of any one person, but of ethics of conduct, and what you stance you personally take on the "issues." In the end, if you are hesitant to attend the seminar, try to discover if this is a discomfort originating from an internal moral dilemma (in which case your moral code is signalling to you that attending is wrong), or whether you are hesitatant because of what others might think of you (in which case, you must still decide which takes precedent, you own moral compass (attend) or that of other (do not)).

Mind you, I am a student of the authorized line of teaching here in Japan under Otake Risuke, who has the blessing of the Iizasa family to "represent" the school, so I feel it my obligation to inform you of my closeness to the subject. Good luck in your decision. You should make the choice that sit rightest with you innermost convictions, regardless of what other may think.

Cheers
Greg Ellis
Tokyo, Japan

Richard Stein
27th August 2004, 09:05
Thank you Mr. Ellis for sharing that with me. Now since you are in Japan and train in the line of Otake Risuke, can you tell me where to go to train here in Europe?

gmellis
27th August 2004, 09:22
While I could supply you with contact information, I do not act as an official representative of the school. So I would ask you to contact Phil Relnick at his homepage. He can probably give you the contact information you need for the European region. The link to his page is below. You will find an address on it to mail him an inquiry. You can rest assured that any contacts he refers you to will ONLY be instructors who are officially recognized by the Soke (Iizasa) of the school himself. Best of luck.

Greg Ellis

http://www.tenshinsho-den-katori-shinto-ryu.org/

Richard Stein
27th August 2004, 10:34
Mr. Ellis

I have been in touch with Mr. Phil Relnick and was told that it would be sent(my information request) to Japan..I am waiting at the moment for a reply. Is there not a website or information center to check this? I hate inconveniencing everyone for such a simple request?

kokumo
27th August 2004, 18:03
Originally posted by Richard Stein
Mr. Ellis

I have been in touch with Mr. Phil Relnick and was told that it would be sent(my information request) to Japan..I am waiting at the moment for a reply. Is there not a website or information center to check this? I hate inconveniencing everyone for such a simple request?

Richard --

There are any number of reasons why it may not be such a simple request, or a simple matter of public information.

As small, individually transmitted teachings, koryu arts tend to operate in a different time frame than that of the instant and relatively open information protocols common on the web.

In the same way, you can buy a Paul Chen sword over the web and have it shipped today for a relatively low price. The quality is perfectly adequate for many JMA practitioners. But if you want a custom folded-steel blade from a trained bladesmith, even in the United States, there are often waiting lists. If you want to get on the list, you either accept the terms presented by the smith, or you find another smith.

As consumers in an advanced industrial society, we are conditioned to think that we exercise free choice of purchase from all sellers. But if the model is one of pre-industrial exchange, the individual holding the desired information, object or what-have-you may also exercise not simply the right to determine who is or is not an acceptable second party to the exchange, but an affirmative responsibility to the many previous generations of the lineage to very carefully protect the collective knowledge and traditions that have been passed down.

That's not a simple inconvenience, it's a big part of the job of a licensed instructor.

Best,

Fred Little

Richard Stein
27th August 2004, 19:10
Thank you Fred.
My main point being that i did not want to inconvenience anyone not that the request was simple.
Regards,

A.J. Bryant
2nd September 2004, 08:15
Politics aside...

As a general rule, I'd recommend training with as many people as possible. Don't get caught up in politics. You have several arts near you, so experience... Learn, Grow...

Regards,

Finny
3rd September 2004, 05:58
There's a slight difference between 'getting caught up in politics', and doing a little research and deciding not to train with an unauthorised instructor.

That sort of attitude kind of encourages the ignorance that provides fools like the Williams' of 'Saigo-Ha' DR and co. with a living.

Particularly in the case of Koryu, where typically one man/family 'owns' the Ryu, lock stock and barrel. What he says goes. With a little research, it's very easy to see what Iizasa Soke's stance is.

It's not political at all. It's ethical, as Mr Ellis said.

sven beulke
23rd November 2005, 11:51
Hello,
could anyone confirm that the Sugino-dojo is official( in the name of the soke) demonstrating KSR at the Meiji-enbu this year?
Greetings

sven beulke
29th November 2005, 11:18
Hello!
I recently received a private message from a well know forum-member who for personel reasons didnt want to post it in the forum. He told me that the people from the Sugino-dojo demonstrated TSKSR at the Meiji-jingu enbu in front of Iizasa Soke.

Greetings from freezing cold germany

kongoshin
29th November 2005, 12:57
The soke and Sugino dojo has a close relationship - they meet several times a year.

This is a fairly recent picture - showing, from left, Nikolaj Visti Jensen - Denmark, Iizasa Yoshisada Soke and Yukihiro Sugino sensei.

http://budo-yo-in-kan.dk/Katori_shinto_ryu/clip_image004_0000.jpg

Oda
1st December 2005, 08:51
What?!? Two Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu in Meiji Enbu? So that explains what I saw. I was really confused when I was there and saw two different groups performing TSKSR. Could someone who knows give us some reasons for this, I`d just like to know why there were two schools of TSKSR?It wasn`t the only one though, I remember counting three schools under Yagyu Shinkage Ryu banner.

I should really start a new thread with pictures on all those things I saw in Meiji Enbu, for I have a lot of questions. I couldn`t even tell which one was Otake-sensei`s group and which was Sugino-sensei`s? But my computer crashed and you`ll have to wait about two weeks for those pics.

johan smits
1st December 2005, 12:56
Hi to you all,

Not that it is any of my business but in the past there has been some heated debating going on on this board about TSKSR, the main line and how the Sugino followers weren't doing TSKSR, etc, etc, etc.

Funny thing is that I have noticed that people who started out in Sugino line (the only thing available overhere at that time) are now welcome in the dojo of Otake sensei and are being trained by him.
Seems that after all a lot of people made a lot of fuss about something that has turned out well in the end. Maybe that explains the two groups.

For what it's worth.


Best,

Johan Smits

Hurtzdontit
8th April 2006, 11:22
Hi all,
Does anyone have much information about the Sugino branch of KSR?
I was always under the impression that it was one of the rare Koryu that did not have diffrent lineages and that the only bonna fide soke was Iizasa Yoshisada?
Thanks
Andrew Timms

kenkyusha
8th April 2006, 13:37
This topic has been discussed at some length here over the years. BTW, I think that it is preferred: Tenshinsho-den Katori Shinto Ryu.

Be well,
Jigme

George Kohler
8th April 2006, 16:41
Yes, there has been some discussion about this in the past, but it appears recently that Sugino Sensei's son is now with the main line.

As for the actual name of the school, why would Donn Draeger translate the Katori Shinto books and use "Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu?" Wasn't he a high ranking member of the school?

kenkyusha
9th April 2006, 14:24
As for the actual name of the school, why would Donn Draeger translate the Katori Shinto books and use "Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu?" Wasn't he a high ranking member of the school?
I don't have any affiliation, just noticed that that is the way that Phil Relnick sensei romanizes it on the website (http://tenshinsho-den-katori-shinto-ryu.org/) (though, come to think of it, that rendering does more closely match the pronunciation... of course that is mere speculation).

Be well,
Jigme

Hurtzdontit
9th April 2006, 16:09
Thanks for the input Mr Kohler,
So is the Sugino group legit now?
In regards to using the search option it seems like I can get a little bit from one post and a little from another.
If its not much hassle, could one of the chaps here please give a breif description of how the split occured and a general view of the Sugino group.
Thanks
Andrew Timms

Finny
9th April 2006, 17:25
Put simply - TSKSR has one head - Iizasa Soke.

Sugino Yoshio was licensed to teach by the previous soke. Although he was licensed, none of his students were (AFAIK).

When he died, many of his students continued to teach, independently of the TSKSR. Otake sensei made repeated comments through the 90's that there were other folks doing 'wierd' Katori Shinto Ryu waza. The current Soke authorised Otake Shihan as the only teaching master of the school. So for other people to advertise instruction in Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu was considered a bit of a faux pas (Again, AFAIK)

It now appears as Mr. Kohler said, that Sugino Sensei's son is now operating under the auspices of Iizasa Soke.

What that means, I don't know - perhaps you would be better off going to the source.

sven beulke
10th April 2006, 11:16
Hi All!
For my information the Sugino Dojo never lost there close contact with the Soke! Licences(for example mokuroku) where signed not only by Sugino Yoshio or Sugino Yukihiro but also by the Soke. This is not a recent development!
Greetings

MarkF
10th April 2006, 13:16
Mr. Timms,

Here is an older thread concerning thevery topic you ask. There are older ones, as is mentioned in the first of 80 or so of this thread..

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6146&highlight=Tenshin+Shoden+Katori+Shinto+Ryu


Checked the Sword Forum archives?


Mark

PS: Donn Draeger wrote what was correct at the time. Things change. If you have access, read any of Donn's articles in the old Judo Illustrated magazine, especially with "play by play." He was a fine writer in making a good match look great. I was fiven a load of scans of that magazine and lot of others, but the Judo Illustrated articles stand out.

Finny
10th April 2006, 15:15
Thanks for the information Mr. Beulke - I apologise for any mistakes in my post, they were all my own.

kongoshin
13th April 2006, 12:46
I visited Shurinosuke Yasusada Iizasa Soke today in Sawarra, Chiba prefecture. He is an immensely warm and friendly person and was very happy to see us. I saw with my own eyes the friendship and warmth that excists between the Soke and Sugino Dojo. He's grateful that we all want to preserve Katori Shinto Ryu and wished us all the best for the future and our continued practice.

I will write more about the visit and other experiences during my stay in Japan in a few days.

sven beulke
18th April 2006, 10:01
Thanks for the information Mr. Beulke - I apologise for any mistakes in my post, they were all my own.
Hi Brendan!
I think your question is legit and important! You dont have to apologise for it. Theres a lot of differing information on the internet and on e-budo about this topic! Mayby one of the most contoverse discussed topics on e-budo!
Kind Regards

kongoshin
18th June 2006, 23:16
I've posted a short review of a DVD made by Elita International and Mike Finn. This particular one features archive footage of Otake sensei from 1968 where he performs selected kata.

See the whole review here:
http://mylifeinbudo.blogspot.com/

I will also post a review of the 2-disc DVD set of "The Way of the Warrior" series. The 8 episode series, produced by the BBC, was aired in 1983 and has become a classic in the martial arts community. It's been very hard to get, but now it's available on DVD, digitalized by an enthusiast from the UK. Check my blog for the review in a short while.

Bjørne Hoff
22nd June 2006, 23:55
Interesting!
I might just purchase those myself. :)
Thanks for sharing

kennin
25th July 2006, 15:43
Just one simple question, but the answer might be not so easy.

I assume that Tenshin Shōdon Katori Shintō Ryū wasn't created out of nothing in the 15th century, immediately providing the full scale curriculum as it is known by now.

So my question is: is it known when TSKSR adapted Ryotōjutsu in their curriculum?

cxt
25th July 2006, 18:19
I question the use of the term "adapted."

As its not known if it was in fact "adapted" (or adopted) from elsewhere or devleoped more or less independently by the founder/early masters of the ryu.

Possible that the ryo tech were passed down exactly as the Founder learned them from HIS teachers.

Just don't know.

My best guess is that exact information on exactly when a given set of techniques entered a system is pretty hard to come by.

Some ryu do have such records--most don't.

Just an opinion.

kennin
25th July 2006, 20:27
If "adapted" is the correct term or not... I guess that's just semantics. If it is wrong indeed, well please accept my sincere apologies.

The question stays the same though: since when is Ryotōjutsu a part of the TSKSR?
I still assume that a lot of the system was grown after the founding of the style.

cxt
25th July 2006, 21:49
No, not a problem of any sort at all. :)

Just the word means/implies something that may or may not be accurate.

Many classical ryu from all over Japan, from multiple time periods, contain ryoto techniques.

(Makes sense in that logically a professional fighter would at some point at least explore the use of 2 blades at once.)

I would guess that such techniques are part and parcel of the TSKSR and have been since the Founding.

The situation gets more "murky" in that we don't know (in detail) what Choisi (sp) training consisted of.
Could be that the ryoto was pretty much the same as he learned from his teachers, he could have created them himself thu his practical expereince and training, he could have learned them later.

Or they might have been added at some point in the MANY 100's of years in the schools exsistance.

Not sure that anyone would "knows" for sure----safe bet is its been there most of its history.

Not sure that it matters.

sven beulke
26th July 2006, 10:33
I assume that Tenshin Shōdon Katori Shintō Ryū wasn't created out of nothing in the 15th century, immediately providing the full scale curriculum as it is known by now.


Hi!
TSKSR was not created out of nothing! TSKSR was founded on older styles. These style where not organized the same way as the TSKSR, most authorities say that the TSKSR was the first bugei ryuha organized in a similar way as arts like chado, shodo etc. started almost 100 years before. But there has been teachers and pupils before the founding of TSKSR. I would think that most of the curriculum was created by the founder or during the lifetime of the founder Iizasa Chōisai Ienao. Its not sure if there was a forerunner for the techniques of the ryu but TSKSR has a very complex curriculum. Kashima- Ken , a kind of solo-kenjutsu that was trained at the Kashima Shrine could be a influence!
Kind regards

DDATFUS
26th July 2006, 17:04
[COLOR=Indigo]since when is Ryotōjutsu a part of the TSKSR?
I still assume that a lot of the system was grown after the founding of the style.

In Ellis Amdur's book Old School, he mentions that the current head of TSKSR is not interested in trying to revive old techniques that have been lost, even if there are detailed explanations of those techniques written in the transmission scrolls. He explains that TSKSR was founded based on the founder's original divine vision, and all the techniques still extant contain a direct transmission of that vision. Anything added later or re-created would lack that essential divine spark. Now, I have no idea how old that attitude is, but if it has always been part of the school's teachings, one would doubt that much new material was added over the years.

The only real ways to know, though, might be to either privately contact some TSKSR representatives and ask them, or to contact someone involved with hoplology and see if any of Donn Draeger's published lectures discuss the development of TSKSR over time.

Fred27
3rd May 2007, 09:09
You will have to forgive if this is allready common knowledge but I'm sloppy at keeping myself up-to-date with Katori Shinto-ryu current events.

Has Otake Risuke Sensei stepped down as Head-instructor? Is this step-down a complete one or is Sensei still doing some form of instruction, and if so, do he have some sort of title?

Thx in advance

Fred27
7th May 2007, 10:07
Ok, shameless bump!

Reason for asking is that I found this article http://www.aikiken.fi/articles.php?lng=en&pg=106
stating
Kyoso Shigetoshi, the current head teacher of Katori Shinto Ryu

"Head Teacher" "Headmaster"?

Daniel Lee
7th May 2007, 15:48
Dear Fredrik Hall,

Otake-sensei is the sole shihan of the Tenshinsho-den Katori Shinto-ryu under Iizasa Yasusada-soke, and currently teaches together with his two sons (as you noted above). You might like to know that he has also recently authored a new book on the school, entitled Katori Shinto-ryu: Warrior Tradition (http://www.koryu.com/store/katori-shinto-ryu.html).

Fred27
7th May 2007, 16:45
Dear Fredrik Hall,

Otake-sensei is the sole shihan of the Tenshinsho-den Katori Shinto-ryu under Iizasa Yasusada-soke, and currently teaches together with his two sons (as you noted above). You might like to know that he has also recently authored a new book on the school, entitled Katori Shinto-ryu: Warrior Tradition (http://www.koryu.com/store/katori-shinto-ryu.html).

Hm..I guess the site I found the "head teacher"-statement on was kinda off eh?

Thanks for the clarification. I've already made a place in my bookshelf for that book by the way :)

Cron
4th January 2008, 19:08
Hi all,

last year I visited the TSKSR Hombu Dojo and saw a calandar about the Shinto ryu, showing Otake Sensei, Katori Jingu, Densho examples,... I asked Sensei for the name of the company printing those calendar, but I forgot it. I only know that the company has their office in South Japan, I think it was Kyushu.

Maybe somebody can help me with the name and URL?

Thanks,

Michael Reinhardt

Ron Beaubien
7th November 2008, 05:05
I apologize for resurrecting an old thread, but as this topic has been discussed before, I thought it was best to place this information here rather than start a new one.

In 2005, Sugino Yukihiro sensei and his students at the Sugino dojo, started demonstrating at Meiji Shrine under the name Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto-ryu with Iizasa Yasusada sensei listed as the soke. This raised a few eyebrows as since 2005 there have been two groups representing the same ryuha, the other being led by Kyoso Shigetoshi sensei, Otake Risuke sensei's son.

Last Monday, November 3rd, 2008, after the demonstrations had finished at Meiji Shrine, I attended the naorai. Following a few speeches, a toast to mark the occasion, and a little food, the various ryuha were asked to stand up and say a few words.

When the time came, Iizasa Yasusada sensei, who was at a table in front of the room, stood up as did the members of the Sugino Dojo. Iizasa sensei proudly identified himself as the soke of Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto-ryu. He then gestured towards the others standing and clearly stated: "These are members of Katori Shinto-ryu's branch dojo: the Sugino Dojo."

I looked at the person sitting next to me, who also had a surprised look on his face, to make sure I heard that correctly and he confirmed it. Iizasa sensei's statement was also not said in private, as there were at least 60 other people in the room, all of them either soke, shihan, or practitioners of their respective koryu schools who were listening to him.

For the record, Kyoso Shigetoshi sensei and the others from Otake Risuke sensei's dojo were not in attendance at the naorai, although they had demonstrated earlier that day. As a matter of fact, they haven't attended the naorai after the demonstration for as long as I can remember, although Iizasa sensei always has.

I'm not a member of the above school and I have no vested interest in the outcome either way. However, conflicting information has been repeatedly published by the school about who is and who isn't allowed to teach the tradition which has caused confusion. I offer the above information in hope that it might help to clarify the situation.

Respectfully,

Ron Beaubien

ScottUK
7th November 2008, 09:17
Interesting stuff. Cheers for posting...

K. Fredheim
7th November 2008, 10:03
It's not my place to comment on this (so I won't :)), but it could be worth noting that Iizasa soke attended Sugino dojo's 80-year anniversary last november. Some pictures from that event can be seen here (http://www.kakudokan.no/gallerier/tron-furu-japan-2007/index.htm).

Max Chouinard
9th November 2008, 05:30
I followed a seminar with Sugino sensei about a year ago, and from the little I know, there are some technical differences with what is done under Otake shihan (at least from what I saw and read as I never followed instruction from him) and what was done with Sugino's father (from what experienced people there told me, many things got changed). The situation really evolved a lot. A few years ago no one would have dared speaking about non Otake related groups on the web, then we started seeing the Sugino ha stamping and sometimes the Hatekayama ha (where did they came from anyway?) and gradually much more acceptance until the situation nearly turned around completely. Now Otake shihan group seems to be regaining some influence by putting aside some old principles. It seems now that TSKR is full of factions, all vying for legitimacy (Sugino, Otake, Hatakeyama, Sugawara, and maybe to a lesser degree the Aikibudo crowd), and all of them having different cards in their hands. I think a clear response from all the major parties involved (Sugino sensei, Iizasa soke and Otake shihan) would settle this once and for all, but I suppose we won't see that happening until something major happens. Anyway, I should know better than to put myself in another ryu inner politics, as interesting as it seems ;).

Stefffen
9th November 2008, 11:58
Anyway, I should know better than to put myself in another ryu inner politics, as interesting as it seems ;).

Wise words;)

Benkei the Monk
11th November 2008, 00:11
Thanks a lot for the news from Meiji shrine. They are of extreee interest for the community. Thanks a lot! :)

morpheus
29th December 2008, 17:47
Is the jujutsu portion of KSR demonstrated publicly? I have seen a few photos but nothing more.

Thanks
Jeff

Josh Reyer
29th December 2008, 18:56
Check out this link (http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x4vbuf_kobudopartie2_travel) at the 8:50 mark.

Eric Spinelli
30th December 2008, 13:40
Thanks for the link, Josh. I'd seen clips of the waza from that documentary, but never the commentary and discussion. I liked the bit about writing your name in blood at the end of Part 1. Talk about going out in style.

-Eric

wyse4891
9th January 2009, 05:50
here's an "interesting" website for y'all;

http://www.katorishintoryu.freeserve.co.uk/

I'm not sure why this chap occasionally changes the "shoden" of tenshin shoden katori shinto ryu to "shodan" but his bio is very colorful;

"Shihan Balmer worked as a Mercenary in Africa and Cambodia where he had close contact with the Infamous Pol Pot.He was an international bodyguard for business people travelling across Europe and Asia in the sixties. his most famous client was Idi Amin ruler of Uganda. "


I thought of sticking this post on the bad budo forum but I really don't want to get on the wrong side of someone who worked for Idi Amin :)




Hi Banbi, I am new to e-budo but I am interested in TSKSR in London, but I cannot find mr jay contact details, do you know where I can find them?
Many thanks

Wyse4891

tomtom
21st August 2013, 15:16
Hi Banbi, I am new to e-budo but I am interested in TSKSR in London, but I cannot find mr jay contact details, do you know where I can find them?
Many thanks

Wyse4891
Hi Wyse
Not sure if you found it already but
http://www.japansociety.org.uk/4614/jay-michael/
Has his email and phone at the bottom of the article
all the best
Tom

hatori
31st August 2013, 21:18
hi dears

some questions about koryu bujutsu "katori shinto ryu"

why is sageo of saya open in katori shinto ryu? not attaching to hakama(like Iaido)?

why your hand before nukitsuke over (Vice versa) be tsuka?
What is the reason?
is this reason practical?

thank you for answers

Guy Buyens
31st August 2013, 22:20
some questions about koryu bujutsu "katori shinto ryu"


First of all I am not an expert on Katori Shinto-ryu and others are much more qualified to comment.

Nevertheless I do want to point out that there are many ways to deal with the sageo and not only in Katori Shinto-ryu you can see the sageo not tied to the hakama. Some schools even leave out the sageo. Some people I know prefer an unattached sageo to allow more freedom during iaijutsu. Some schools allow freedom in how to deal with the sageo, other schools are quit directive.

Regarding your question on the hand before nukitsuke I assume you refer to the right hand placed palm up at mid-hilt. In Katori Shinto-ryu, Warrior tradition by Risuke Otake (p64), this is explained as a movement that clears the practioner’s sleeve back to the elbow, and out of the way.
Although I am not a member of Katori Shinto-ryu, I bought the book and obviously if you have an interest in this school I can recommend it to you.

hatori
1st September 2013, 07:29
Regarding your question on the hand before nukitsuke I assume you refer to the right hand placed palm up at mid-hilt. In Katori Shinto-ryu, Warrior tradition by Risuke Otake (p64), this is explained as a movement that clears the practioner’s sleeve back to the elbow, and out of the way.
Although I am not a member of Katori Shinto-ryu, I bought the book and obviously if you have an interest in this school I can recommend it to you.

thank you,but
What is the name of this move?

hatori
29th April 2015, 20:20
hi,
please answer to this question

ScottUK
29th April 2015, 21:09
Two different styles/methodologies, nothing more.

mediumsnowshoe
30th April 2015, 17:46
From 0920

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=on98wYpoovU

Shohatto

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKy_onHvc14


Different kata, different strategies/target, different different different

hatori
6th May 2015, 19:28
in the katori shinto ryu, why do they nukitsuke in this way? look at Wrist hand and handle of sword!!!! why ?????

Brian Owens
7th May 2015, 04:54
in the katori shinto ryu, why do they nukitsuke in this way? look at Wrist hand and handle of sword!!!! why ?????

Join the school and, after you've gained the trust of your elders, I'm sure someone will be happy to tell you.

pgsmith
7th May 2015, 17:03
Mr. Hessam,
I will attempt to explain in such a way that you'll understand. The koryu sword arts are all distinct entities with many years of history behind them that have shaped the way that they do things. While there are always reasons for the things that are done within a particular school, that reasoning is reserved for those that are active members of the ryu. You learn the reasons for things directly from your instructor and seniors in the art. It is not something that is generally shared with outsiders. Much of the inner workings of the various schools is indeed only available to the most senior members of the art. The longer you practice, the more you learn.

You cannot learn these things by asking on the internet, it just doesn't work that way.

Ellis Amdur
7th May 2015, 19:03
Paul - et al - I don't agree. Anytime I observe something from another ryu that intrigues me, I ask--either as a mental construct (trying to figure it out), or directly to a practitioner. Sometimes I'm told that the information is proprietary or secret...but very often, I get a direct answer. Over and over, I see this censorious response of "join the ryu and wait to be instructed when the instructor is ready," as if koryu are these precious delicate jewels, unfathomable to non-practitioners, or those from other ryu, and it is somehow just not 'on' to ask such a question.

For example, Toda-ha Buko-ryu has a particular move, ke-ashi, which almost looks like an ashi-barai with weapons. Every time we did an embu in Japan, instructors from other ryu would approach Nitta sensei or myself and ask what it meant, quite mystified, but freely speculating. A very famous teacher thought it was kicking sand in the eyes of the enemy before cutting them with the naginata (how much sand is there in Japan?) It is, in fact, a means of generating power to cut strongly forward and then to move quickly and deeply backwards without losing balance. (See, I told you-and we had no hesitation in telling others as well back then.).

Some time ago, there was a rather nasty exchange on one of the koryu Facebook pages, where a couple of trolls began slandering my ryu and me personally, based on what they believed they perceived in a film of our embu in Araki-ryu. There was a rather long exchange, which I eventually entered (the two trolls were young Bujinkan guys who had visited my dojo in Greece and thought they'd awe the members of the dojo...and left after a single light practice, never to return--pride apparently hurt). In the end, I issued an open invitation to the over 2000 members of this Facebook group, that they were welcome to ask any question they liked about my ryu(s), and I would answer. If it was proprietary information, I would say so--if not, I'd answer clearly. I was intrigued that I got two or three questions. That's all. Perhaps everyone was incurious, but perhaps this engrained censoriousness is so deep that even with an invitation, people don't ask.

It is interesting to me that TSKSR, for example, is remarkably open--Otake sensei frequently will state in a film - (a paraphrase) - 'here's a gokui of our school, and here's how to do it, and here's why we do it.' I would bet that the odds are good that if one asked Otake sensei directly about that nukitsuke, you'd get a detailed explanation.

I get the difference between what a shihan chooses to explain and what a student would--on the internet, no less. Nonetheless, how does one know what is proprietary unless one asks. And why participate in a discussion group on koryu unless there is something to discuss? The questions on lineage, legitimacy, location of dojos and 'what is a soke' have been done to death. Without something substantive, what's the point?

I've always wondered why the sageo in TSKSR is looped over the saya. Never gotten around to asking--even though that's not the way people wore swords, with the sageo drooping behind. So, in the spirit of inquiry, to TSKSR folks (and others who do the same in their tradition), why do this with the sageo? (If I don't get an answer here, I'm finally moved to inquire further, and will write to a few friends. I'll be surprised if I'm told that this is one of the deep secrets of the ryu).
Ellis Amdur

Brian Owens
7th May 2015, 19:22
...I would bet that the odds are good that if one asked Otake sensei directly about that nukitsuke, you'd get a detailed explanation.

I think that is a difference that's important; asking the most-senior teacher (presumably in person, or at least in a direct communication) versus throwing out the question on the Internet.

Ellis Amdur
7th May 2015, 19:53
Brian - I wrote:
I get the difference between what a shihan chooses to explain and what a student would--on the internet, no less. Nonetheless, how does one know what is proprietary unless one asks. And why participate in a discussion group on koryu unless there is something to discuss? The questions on lineage, legitimacy, location of dojos and 'what is a soke' have been done to death. Without something substantive, what's the point?

What's the point of a discussion group where all that is discussed is pablum? If you go to the CQB groups, here and elsewhere, there is substantive discussion on technique, motivation, etc. But all to often, koryu are treated as unfathomable. I look at the nukitsuke in question and wonder about the stress on the wrist upon impact. Do they rely on always finding an opening, something soft to cut and that particular configuration enables one to cut with more accuracy? Is there something about the alignment of the tsuka that protects the wrist?

My larger point is this. E-budo is not what it once was. There are old discussions of such substance that I either archived them or referred them to my students. That is rarely so. New people are going to make the same "mistakes" we once did (heck, I once offered a dojocho to trade a new bokken for an heirloom of that dojo I trained in, because it suited me so well--there is NO mistake a newby could make more egregious than some of mine!). To simply dismiss honest inquiry with, "ask your teacher," or "join, submit and someday hope your teacher explains things" shuts down dialogue and this group will founder amongst a few people repeating the same things back to one another.

And not everything enacted in a ryu is so arcane that only a master might answer. For example, we have a particular way of securing the sageo to the saya. If someone were to ask why, I could care less if one of my students answered, even if he'd only trained for three months--as long as the answer was correct. 10834

Brian Owens
7th May 2015, 20:38
Ellis, I understand your point. But this is the Koryu History and Traditions section, and I don't know that getting into specifics of technique really fits into that concept. I also know that there has been a general "rule" or "principle" for as long as I've been here, one that Hyaku explicitly states in the Sword Arts sub-forum: "Sorry but I will not condone any self training... This is "Sword Arts". Find a teacher!"

Wakimono
7th May 2015, 21:23
I've always wondered why the sageo in TSKSR is looped over the saya. Never gotten around to asking--even though that's not the way people wore swords, with the sageo drooping behind. So, in the spirit of inquiry, to TSKSR folks (and others who do the same in their tradition), why do this with the sageo? (If I don't get an answer here, I'm finally moved to inquire further, and will write to a few friends. I'll be surprised if I'm told that this is one of the deep secrets of the ryu).

Some info from "Muso Jikiden Eishin-Ryu - The Iai Forms and Oral Traditions of the Yamauchi Branch", by Yamakoshi Masaki & Tsukimoto Kazutake:

"It was common rule for high ranked samurai to let the sageo hang down over the scabbard to one's left side. Low ranked samurai used to wind and tie it on the scabbard in many particular ways. Samurai servants sometimes tied the sageo to the corde of the hakama."

I think this fits as history and tradition

Ellis Amdur
8th May 2015, 00:45
Brian - First thing that I did when I joined e-budo, way back when, was answer a set of questions about kiaijutsu. "Self training" - I'm not sure what that means, beyond, "I'm creating my own ryu--how can I borrow what you do to bolster my non-existent knowledge?"

Traditions? - as for me, the traditions of the school are the techniques of the school. I cannot talk about Toda-ha Buko-ryu or Araki-ryu without discussing technical issues. There's not much to say--or do - - -beyond that.

Wakimono - thank you for the answer. I'll follow up with some TSKSR friends, but in general, that's illuminating. I've always been rather incurious about these small details, but just recently have become interested.

It just seems odd to have a now, very under-populated discussion group, where just about any question beyond a historical lineage question would have the same type of answer:
1. Why do so many iaido ryu cut shomen rather than kesa - "find a teacher"
2. The movement signature of x ryu doesn't appear to be suitable for katchu-kempo - "join the ryu"
3. X-ryu's uketachi seems to cut in the air with their sword. The ma-ai doesn't appear to be able to reach the swordsman. Why is that. "Join X ryu"

Anyway, not my discussion section so do what you will. If anyone has questions for me, look down the list to the bookstore, regarding my books. I moderate those sections. As long as it concerns something I've written--or leads you to make a connection with something I've written, I'll answer as best as I can.
Ellis Amdur

Cliff Judge
8th May 2015, 16:39
I don't think all questions are created equal though. It is certainly one thing to be forthcoming to someone who is polite and friendly, and seems to understand enough about what they are asking about, that they are earnestly curious.

This thread may be another matter. Hessam (without questioning whether this is his full name in his culture of origin) posts two images and seems to demand an answer to the very vague question of "why?????" This doesn't seem like an honest and polite request for information to me. It might be....I would need to hear the poster elborate on his question to know.

Josh Reyer
8th May 2015, 16:57
Okay, I'll bite. Given the swordsman's hitoemi posture, why wouldn't he have the sword, wrist, and tsuka in that position?

hatori
8th May 2015, 18:07
I'm so sorry for my questions!
my name is Hessam Solte
but I can's speak very well! I'm only research about koryu. That's it.

pgsmith
8th May 2015, 19:20
I see exactly what you mean Ellis, and I agree mostly. I've had any number of interesting conversations with other folks about their art, and I always enjoy it. (OK, there were a couple that I didn't, but that's another story!) However, these questions did not strike me as being in the same vein at all. They were not from a practitioner asking why this school did things differently, they were from an obvious non-practitioner seeking technical answers that he wasn't likely to find on the internet. My answer was an attempt to let the questioner know that he would need to seek out an instructor and begin learning before things would start making any sense, but I obviously wasn't as clear in that as I thought I was. :)


I think that is a difference that's important; asking the most-senior teacher (presumably in person, or at least in a direct communication) versus throwing out the question on the Internet.

I don't think it's even that Brian. To me it's more along the lines of someone that doesn't even know that different schools simply do things differently is asking for technical answers to explain why that is. Without a sufficient frame of reference, it is almost impossible to form an understandable answer.


I'm so sorry for my questions!
my name is Hessam Solte
but I can's speak very well! I'm only research about koryu. That's it.

Greetings Mr. Solte,
It is a site requirement that you place your full name in your post. Add it to your signature, and it will be displayed automatically.
I see what you're attempting, and you would have been better off posting your questions in the Sword Arts forum. Perhaps one of the moderators will find time to split this out into a new thread for you.
I understand wanting to research. Given the amount of information that's easily available on the internet, it is easy to follow out your passions. However, I feel that you're asking for answers above your level of understanding, unless you actually have been practicing a koryu sword art under a qualified instructor for a sufficiently long enough time to gain some understanding? Based upon your questions I would assume not, but I've been wrong any number of times before in my life. :)

Please feel free to ask all the questions about kenjutsu you want as new threads in the sword arts section. However, try to think out your questions carefully so they aren't as easily misunderstood as the one's you've asked so far. Try to narrow down the amount of information that you're looking for in each question, and you're more likely to get multiple answers.

Cheers,

giles
9th May 2015, 11:51
And not everything enacted in a ryu is so arcane that only a master might answer. For example, we have a particular way of securing the sageo to the saya. If someone were to ask why, I could care less if one of my students answered, even if he'd only trained for three months--as long as the answer was correct.

I'll bite - I haven't seen that before, why do you do it that way?

Brian Owens
9th May 2015, 16:24
I'll bite - I haven't seen that before, why do you do it that way?

My guess is that it's so the kurigata doesn't get ripped out if the saya is pulled hard against the sageo; but it's just that...a guess.

Ellis Amdur
10th May 2015, 04:42
1. You are right - a little failsafe for the kurigata not getting ripped out.
2. It's also a little extra protection for the left hand in case one is foolish enough to jam your scabbard when pulling it back, while cutting, resulting in cutting through the saya. It's actually quite difficult for sharp steel to cut through silk . . .and therefore, I still have a thumb, the blade only cutting ½ through. (yes, I know, a skilled person would never make such a mistake, so such failsafe methods aren't necessary).

Ellis Amdur

Brian Owens
10th May 2015, 05:06
...It's also a little extra protection for the left hand in case one is foolish enough to jam your scabbard when pulling it back, while cutting, resulting in cutting through the saya. It's actually quite difficult for sharp steel to cut through silk...

I never would have thought of that; that's really quite brilliant. I've seen several saya over the years that had wrappings of various types between the koiguchi and the kurigata, which I always thought of as strictly decorative, but I wonder now if they had that other purpose as well.


...It's actually quite difficult for sharp steel to cut through silk. . .and therefore, I still have a thumb, the blade only cutting ½ through.

Half through the silk, or half through your thumb? I shudder to think what might have happened.

Ellis Amdur
11th May 2015, 06:35
Half through the silk, or half through your thumb? I shudder to think what might have happened.

Both, actually.

giles
11th May 2015, 12:15
1. You are right - a little failsafe for the kurigata not getting ripped out.


I'd got that wrong: I thought the larks foot was so that the sageo was still attached should the kurigata break. Too much rock climbing influencing my thinking.

Yagyuhoo
5th June 2015, 13:29
I've always wondered why the sageo in TSKSR is looped over the saya. Never gotten around to asking--even though that's not the way people wore swords, with the sageo drooping behind. So, in the spirit of inquiry, to TSKSR folks (and others who do the same in their tradition), why do this with the sageo? (If I don't get an answer here, I'm finally moved to inquire further, and will write to a few friends. I'll be surprised if I'm told that this is one of the deep secrets of the ryu).
Ellis Amdur

Any answers to this conundrum? Inquiring minds want to know...

B.Finn
6th June 2015, 09:35
FWIW, Sugino dojo people secure the sageo back in the hakama himo:

10842

tomtom
1st July 2015, 20:28
Hi All
I loved the healthy debate here. There seems to be a TSKSR group in Boston MA
I found their Facebook page.
https://www.facebook.com/boston.katori.ma/info?tab=page_info
Has anyone been to see them yet?
Thanks!

Cady Goldfield
1st July 2015, 22:32
I have not heard of this group, but it's nice to know there is good koryu in Boston.
Edit: I contacted them today, and was told that they are under Tetsutaka Sugawara, whose dojo is in Japan.