Kodokan or Kawaishi?

[dakotajudo]

I had the rare pleasure of meeting an experienced judoka here in town the other day (this is a rather small town on the northern plains - this person was a graduate student from Mexico) and when I invited him to come train, he asked what style we practiced - Kodokan or Kawaishi.

I guess I never really thought of judo that way, but from my reading it seems that there was a pretty serious split between the Kodokan's methods and Kawaishi's in the 1950's (this from Brousse and Matsumoto's "Judo - a Sport and a Way of Life"). I have one of Kawaishi's books, and his comment are pretty set against the Kodokan - he includes a lot of neck and leg locks prohibited in randori by the Kodokan.

Does anyone have commentary on this split?



This leads me to another thought. It seems that the split between Kawaishi and the Kodokan is similar to the split between Aikikai Aikido and Koichi Tohei (who went on to found Shin Shin Toitsu or Ki Aikido). Similar branches from the aikido mainline were formed by Shioda, Tomiki, etc.

It seems judo has had the same potential for fragmentation as aikido, considering Gleeson, the IJF and Russian judo among others, but judo seems remarkably homogenous for all that. (Arguably, GJJ could be considered a significant branch from the Kodokan root).

Personally, I think the competitive aspect of judo has helped to maintain a higher degree of commonality among the different styles. The Olympics and World Championships help keep the IJF style in the spotlight, and judoka of all styles regularly meet to play under the same rules.

Comments?

[MarkF]

Hi, Peter,
Kawaishi seemed to be at the crux of the argument amongst the Judoka in Mexico City, and the Mexican team, in the seventies. At that time, it was a "discussion" over how one was going to play randori, and not much else although some did refer to seioi nage as kata seioi.

Some leg locks seemed to be a part of randori in the Mexican dojo where I worked out, but I never heard anyone actually state that Kawaishi's judo wasn't Kodokan judo, or that is was a differen style, but a different manner of randori. This could have changed, but it simply may have been a way of asking whoyour judo god was.;)

Perhaps that is what he meant, concerning randori?

I remember a conversation once over Instant messaging, a student of Neil Ohlenkamp, and he asked me what style of judo I did. I said "There is more than one style of judo?" He said" Well, I do Nanka Yudanshakai judo."

Well, one could make an argument that Nanka did have a different way about it, but I couldn't tell if he were kidding or not, so I dropped it. I had thought at the time he had a misunderstanding, but then the founder of Encino Judo Clubs, Juergen Wahl, did teach some atemi, and was linked to David Chow early on (I never saw him there, but that is what he said recently).

People were brooding over Kano's hold on Judo as early as 1895, and later the recently establish Butokukai did start there own judo school, as well as Kendo, but they both pretty much practiced the same judo.

Waseda University is said to have split somewhat with the kodokan early on, as well. Anything is possible, I guess.

A tidbit on Kawaishi: He was very upfront in disagreeing that uchi mata was a thigh sweep and he categorized it in his book Seven Kata of Judo as a koshiwaza. Back then, I bet it was, as the uchi mata I learned was very different from what is seen now.
It is in the ashiwaza grouping by Kawaishi, but it states it is a hip throw (as explained by the translator, EJ Harrison).

Mark

[Joseph Svinth]

EJH to RWSmith, Nov. 24, 1954:

Shortly I shall have galley proofs of Kawaishi’s important book on my hands. Like Oda he has not scrupled to include kansetsuwaza and shimewaza that are taboo at the Kodokan and in this country. He has, however, gone one better than Oda in that he describes some really devastating leg and dislocation neck locks that are entirely foreign to my own judo experience in Dai Nippon. In my preface to my translation I point out that even though these dangerous methods cannot safely be introduced into friendly practice and contest they should nonetheless be taught to responsible yudansha unless we are anxious to expose them (the yudansha) to the possible humiliation not to say disaster of defeat at the hands and legs of toughs and plug-uglies who have managed to pick up this dangerous knowledge.

[MarkF]

That hasn't gone completely unnoticed by some other modern day "judoshugyosha" such as Lebell, who delights in starting a discussion/demonstration with "this is not allowed in randori" and proceeds to teach it anyway.


Mark

[rsamurai2]

i wish i could find a judo instructor like lebell. i have been to several clinics before i started studying judo that taught the kind of judo that lebell teaches. that is what sparked my interest in judo. this is probably why i have been dissapointed in kodakan judo i went into study thinking lebll judo or this clinic type judo was kodakan judo.

[MarkF]

Lebell did teach (and still does) Kodokan judo. Kawaishi simply disagreed, as did most who learned judo at Waseda, and simply moved the syllabus around.

Also, most teachers I know teach techniques which are not necessarily allowed, but with a warning to be careful when practicing certain body holds, especially those involving the neck. Also, there are allowed strangle holds involving the neck in randori, too. Most do learn, or a teacher should be teaching, leg locks. There is one in particular which has been discussed which SHOULD be allowed in randori. In shiai, all leg locks are banned, by the IJF.

Kawaishi judo can also be referred to as French judo.

A lot of what LeBell taught is in the syllabus, but not everything. He was a wrestler and has said there is nothing in wrestling which is not found in judo (and the other way around).

Throws such as dakiage (basically a body slam) isn't done in randori, but it surely can be practiced. Good work out for practicing hard back ukemi.

All judo is Kodokan, but some teach it and call it jiu jitsu (or Kawaishi judo, etc.) because of their particular manner or order of teaching it. Some do not teach ukemiwaza, instead making the student learn it for themselves when thrown. After getting one's breath back, you have to bet back on the horse. Phil Porter has been quoted as saying teaching ukemi is turning out losers. There are some who agree, and I've noticed many back off some on ukemi. I think that is wrong, but that's me.

Jack Seki called what he taught Jiu jitsu, but every single hold, pin, strike, kick, and throw were all judo, he just taught the rougher parts of it while teaching correct Kodokan technique (he says it is correct, but many have had doubts when he did, in one year, go from 3-dan, to 5-dan to 8-dan). His training, btw, he said was at the Kodokan.

Gene is a great teacher, as he did teach in the manner described in his books but when all was said and done, randori was randori. He simply took a decidely different road than others, and taught more newaza than nage waza, as he was much better on the ground.

I don't know many who don't teach "banned" waza. Kani basami was allowed in shiai when I was on the circuit and many tried for it, a few even won, but few won with ippon with it. Dakiage only brought non recognition in those days, but I did see that too in shiai (granted, it wasn't a big slam, but still, it was done).

You just have to ask, but at the right time. Atemi using the front and back of the head is taught if the teacher knows them. I found it best, especially when learning the basics, to stick with one teacher. After that, then is the time to ask if there is anything else, or find someone else. There are lots of judo dojo around, and while eight or nine out of ten teach basic randori no kata, none of them can teach it without showing the proper kata elements while also teaching proper kuzushi. This isn't to teach kata per se, but in pieces of kata, a knowledge of the nage no kata, makes for better and stronger throws.

You can find that dojo which is right for you depending on how much or how hard you want to search, and the sacrifices one is willing to make to find it, and when found, to stick with it.

Patience is boring, but the saying (last quoted from Hannibal the Cannibal) "All good things come to those who wait." It is true, to me, anyway. Waiting out that which you do find a bore, usually ends with a really good outcome. While I waited, I fought as many times as I could, and have some boxes filled with the toys they give.

Regards,
Mark

[MarkF]

BTW: Richard, so you don't have Gene LeBell. Don't forget, Gene is a prefessional wrestler too, so some claims and statements are works in their on right.

If you have a BJJ dojo nearby, get into that if you can, even one day a week (an hour and a half or so). While you may not learn anything new, you will be able to work on submission techniques, some which you may not be doing now.

Also, no matter your situation, be as good as you can be (stupid, TV slogan) and even if you never learn, or do those neck cranks, a judoka is a challenge for most strike-trained people (karate). He will let you get on the inside even if you take a couple, and when you do, he's lunch. A high kick, hit him in the family jewels.

But you know this stuff, so work on it.

If you can do thirty nage, that is about twenty-five more than the younger competitor, especially if that is what he wants.

Mark

[Seanvb]

Hello,
My master (Shihan Peter Chek) was an inital sempai of Shihan Kawaishi.

He may be able to answer your questions regarding the history of the Kawaishi style.

yous in Bushido, Sean Segond von Banchet

[johan smits]

Hi to you all,

I am not sure if Kawaishi was a Kodokan judoka, he may have come from the Butokukai.
I don't think his judo was different from Kodokan judo. The main difference is I quess in the teaching method. Kawaishi has been labeled the father of European Judo (not without good reason in my opinion). His system did allow many techniques forbidden by the Kodokan, leglocks and necklocks (I think these were once part of the Kodokan repertoire). Also atemi was an integral part of his judo, he wrote about that very clearly.

I am very interested in what Sean's teacher has to tell about this as a former sempai of Kawaishi sensei.

Best,

Johan Smits

[bob thomas]

I looked this up fairly easily.
It is from Neil Ohlenkamp.Mikonosuke Kawaishi was born in Kyoto in 1899, and he died on January 30, 1969 in Paris. He studied jujitsu at the Dai Nippon Butokukai (Greater Japan Association of Martial Virtue) in Kyoto. It is not known exactly what style of jujitsu he learned, although it seems it was a form of Aiki-jujitsu. A group in England that continues to teach this form refer to their teachings as Kawaishi Ryu Jujitsu.

Bob Thomas

[johan smits]

Well there you have it.

And the judoka from the Butokukai were not exactly pussycats as the Kodokan judoka were.

Johan Smits (ducking like hell)

[MarkF]

Well there you have it.

And the judoka from the Butokukai were not exactly pussycats as the Kodokan judoka were.

Johan Smits (ducking like hell)


Don't duck for too long. This thread is, what, five, six years old?


Mark

[johan smits]

Just in time, my back is hurting and I haven't eaten in two days.

Well, never a dull moment.

best,

Johan Smits